The Syndicate

Hello. I'm foolishly on the Internet at 3:30 a.m. on a work night. My alarm is going off in two hours, so I'm not sticking around. This is me advocating an active Day 1 and all that stuff rah rah rah *shakes pom poms...

I'm not getting any sleep tonight. Switching from night shift to day shift is always awful. Hey MacDougall , remember that time you listed 900 reasons to suspect Diiny and then voted for me because I value sleep...

Peek on Diiny was red. EZ$$ What's your game, Wilgy? Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na WILGY!!!! (is most definitely a doctor) and we should kill the confirmed scum. Your confirmed scum is not scum, but I'm going to wait and see how you play this. These reminded me a bit of my own response to being red-checked in the Mafia Championship Game (correctly). I essentially said "you didn't red check me, I don't know why you would make this claim as town or mafia"...

Holy crap, JJJ when did you change your avatar? I was thinking you were someone else for the longest time. Just before the Bengals finally lost a game. Finally . :slick: (couple weeks ago)...

I'm trying to decide whether DrWilgy or Enrique should be my pre-game peek. I don't want to lynch either of you guys...

At a glance, I think I award more town points to Zebra than Diiny in light of their exchange so far. I pointed to one ping for Diiny already, and Zebra's hardball and narrow interrogation/accusation methods are key to her early game town style (in my limited experience playing with her at least)...

Off to work. But first, it is my duty to make everyone else feel awkward and loathe me for singing a thematically-relevant song ...

Look at me, I'm a lurker! What a wild new world! Anyway, pre-game peeks are randomized and always on townies. Unless MM adapted some new variety of peek which can be chosen for this game, Wilgy is lying about his red peek. I am reading the thread to indicate however that his false red might have been correctly placed, because I have been pretty underwhelmed with the way Diiny has handled it. He's been tame -- patience isn't necessarily a problem, but there's been no bite in his fight. No exasperation, no frustration, no emotion -- not what I would expect from any townie being called a red peek before it's even possible to be a red peek. The fun thing is: DrWilgy's lie doesn't preclude him from being the cop. Or from being vanilla town. This is a setup that promotes controlled lying from townies and I am struggling to find a realistic mafia angle to explain what he's done. Well that's why he's doing it, JJJ! . Could be, but I don't take that first step of WIFOM without inspiration...

This post is biggest bunch of zebra shit I've ever seen. I'm reminded of your prophetic "This is horseshit" in Talking Heads in response to a Russ post about Black Rock (both mafia). For that reason I'm especially interested in Epi abruptly calling posts some manner of shit. Could you point out the moments in that Zebra post which inspired this reaction from you? Maybe I'll agree. :nicenod...

I also look forward to Epi elaborating on, well anything really. This post is without purpose. Why is this post on my screen? What inspired its creation...

I also look forward to Epi elaborating on, well anything really. This post is without purpose. Why is this post on my screen? What inspired its creation? Hmmm...I think I'll follow Wilgy's example for a bit. This isn't the unbiased JJJ that I'm used to. Oh really? That incredibly substantive post made you feel that way? Exactly what would I say instead if I were The Real JJJ...

Yup, definitely taking the role of observer for a while. Nah, you don't go around knocking heads around and then bail into Observer Mode immediately upon receiving some of that treatment yourself...

Wilgy, please stop spamming. Zebra -- why "observe" now...

He's lying, and I don't see any way it's civ-motivated. I say lynch him today, worry about Diiny later. Do you see a logical mafia motive instead? I've noted your suggestion that he's trying to lure out the "real" cop -- do you feel then that a mafioso would engage in what would seem to be self-sacrifice (on Day 1 even) to achieve that goal...

Because if I don't, I fear I will stray too far from making sure being as objective as possible is my top priority. This would imply then that something you've said to this point has inspired doubt within you about your own objectivity? Which of your reads do you feel that way about if any...

It's not self-sacrifice if he gets to stay. I can see a way now that it could be civ-motivated, but I don't think it's likely at all. Time will tell etc. Does something preclude you from expanding on that civ-motivated possibility? This question sounds condescending, that is not my intent...

JJJ, can you ISO Diiny? response...

Because if I don't, I fear I will stray too far from making sure being as objective as possible is my top priority. This would imply then that something you've said to this point has inspired doubt within you about your own objectivity? Which of your reads do you feel that way about if any? This is not the case. If you're solid on your objectivity to this point, why have you made it a priority to step back and account for your objectivity...

@Epignosis: I can understand why someone might perceive your move against Floyd to be one that promotes a policy lynch. Actually your stated reason for placing the vote is rather policy-oriented. Far too many times have I witnessed Mafia coast to endgame by staying out of it. If Floyd is Mafia, then I have no intention of letting him coast. If he's a civilian, then he's not contributing and wins if he's dead anyway (from what I understand). The highlighted portion is the definition of a lurker policy lynch. Your vote is motivated by his inactivity -- his chronic inactivity (suggests to me that your perspective extends beyond the boundaries of this game, if that's untrue then say so). Inactive players can be anything and lynching them is by nature a roll of the dice. For this reason, a vote for anyone who has actually done something suspicious, however one might define that -- think in Zebra's mindset here, would be a better vote. Zebra has expressed plenty of suspicions, so his preferred votes shouldn't need elaborating...

Zebra has expressed plenty of suspicions, so her preferred votes shouldn't need elaborating. Gack, sorry again Zebra....

Essay over, feeling GOOD. NO STRESS. let's GO, boys. I haven't read the thread. Ask me questions. throw your shit. Because you're not lynching me and wilgy's lying Why would he be lying? Does this revelation about peek mechanics mean anything to you: Look at me, I'm a lurker! What a wild new world! Anyway, pre-game peeks are randomized and always on townies. Unless MM adapted some new variety of peek which can be chosen for this game, Wilgy is lying about his red peek. I am reading the thread to indicate however that his false red might have been correctly placed, because I have been pretty underwhelmed with the way Diiny has handled it. He's been tame -- patience isn't necessarily a problem, but there's been no bite in his fight. No exasperation, no frustration, no emotion -- not what I would expect from any townie being called a red peek before it's even possible to be a red peek. The fun thing is: DrWilgy's lie doesn't preclude him from being the cop. Or from being vanilla town. This is a setup that promotes controlled lying from townies and I am struggling to find a realistic mafia angle to explain what he's done. Well that's why he's doing it, JJJ! . Could be, but I don't take that first step of WIFOM without inspiration....

Perhaps an important tidbit for those attempting to understand Wilgy MD: mafia private communication is only permitted during the night phase, meaning there has been none of it yet. If he's a bad guy who is just goofing around to see what he can get away with, he is doing so without giving his team mates any prior warning. They'd be forced to react live to his behavior just like the townies, and that's a difficult position to put them in...

You really want the Doctor* out. You know, to paint a completely unnecessary target on his back before he has any useful info . Diiny had 3 votes on him before Wilgy conveniently "outed" him. There was never talk of anyone else. It was always Diiny. How the hell will I out the doctor? Are the baddies psychic? The doctor doesn't have to do anything but save. No need to talk in the thread. I am seriously not getting you. And for some reason, I'm confused by the resemblance between Sorsha's and your avi linki: I guess Mac. I think MP would try harder as a baddie (but those are my expectations of him). Loooooooool Why the laffs though, Ma...

So I'm hitting 13 hours now that I've been working straight, and my stress levels are unreal (due to crunch of last minute stuff, Finals, trying to get an independent study class together, and frustration with one of my professors) . I can't remember the last time I felt this overloaded (probably over the summer). I'll see what I can do tomorrow, since I can't see myself quitting work tonight until I go to bed. Unfortunately my desire to play this game over Thanksgiving is being combated by sudden poor timing (and somewhat poor time management over Thanksgiving break) due to an incredibly stressful week or so ahead of me. Do what you gotta do, mate. I don't have much time for this game either. Maybe it's for the best that this game be allowed to flourish without eight million MP/JJJ posts though, eh? ;...

I don't think it's a good idea to metagame the Floyd read when he has three whole posts. Was he any more involved than this in his town effort(s)? Diiny is referring to Talking Heads when Floyd was mostly quiet and detached as a mafioso, but that was also his very first game...

Why do you think? I have an answer, but I'd really prefer to give me yours first. It might influence my read more than the average post...

linki about J being scum because he's not posting funny joke etc I don't get it...

Why do you think? I have an answer, but I'd really prefer to give me yours first. It might influence my read more than the average post. Lol Fine. I was basically opening the door to town read you but if you don't want this cred then I don't have to give it to you. :noble...

My bad, didn't realise he played in other games. I'm talking about RYM 90. the talking heads game. He only had a few posts there, you should read them and see how remarkably similar his game is now. He may have been good on those games. In fact I'd feel worse about him if he was. Why...

It shows he has potential to play differently; to play TOWN FLOYD. I'm not just seeing the same floyd in this game and 90 because that's floyd, it'd be because that's SCUM FLOYD. That's my confusion. Enrique has suggested Town Floyd was also generally uninvolved and inactive. If that's accurate what would it mean to you...

Pet Sounds Floyd posts He got decently involved and even put up a rainbow, but on Day 1 he was pretty quiet...

I don't have time to be analytic, but here's a rainbow based on my gut right now : a2thezebra DrWilgy MovingPictures07 Sorsha TheFloyd73 DFaraday motel room Enrique MacDougall Diiny Epignosis FZ The names aren't in any order, just the colors...

Lol you were trying to look for a reason to town read me? To what end? I an laughing at FZ's comment on me being scum with no reason, no history of it being so, and no subsequent attempt to chase it up as a legit case despite me having the vote of one JaggedJimmySupatown on me which, if I were a civ with some negative attention on me with a scum read on a particular person, would lend me serious confidence that me making a case on that person could possibly get them lynched. Instead FZ is doing what FZ is doing. Which is lolular. Noted. I thought you might be laughing because of FZ's assertion that "MP would try harder as mafia" before voting for you -- when that statement could easily be applied to you as well. If you had confirmed that interpretation for me then it'd have been a decent look. The answer you've given is something else, though not immediately suspicious. I don't think my vote really means anything to anyone at this point, not even to me...

Moving to FZ for self prez and that. Someone tell me why they're voting me when Wilgy is literally just lying and there's no such thing as a non vt peek I haven't decided on a final vote yet and am still willing to entertain all options. Here's my suspicion though. I also think it took you a tad too long to attack Wilgy's premise, because a townie knows he's lying instantly by virtue of the rolecard and not the fact that the red peek isn't actually possible...

I would encourage those who've already voted for Diiny to at least pause for a moment and carefully consider their vote and their mindset, because this is one of those wagons that could easily drift into a lynch while everyone complacently just waits. That's rarely ideal -- critically assess the situation and ensure you're really giving him a fair opportunity. I wish I had more time to personally address this in a thorough way instead of just rendering advice, but yanno. I gotta get to sleep now, but I'll be back tomorrow with plenty of time to spare. I hope it continues to be an active discussion...

I would encourage those who've already voted for Diiny to at least pause for a moment and carefully consider their vote and their mindset, because this is one of those wagons that could easily drift into a lynch while everyone complacently just waits. That's rarely ideal -- critically assess the situation and ensure you're really giving him a fair opportunity. I wish I had more time to personally address this in a thorough way instead of just rendering advice, but yanno. I gotta get to sleep now, but I'll be back tomorrow with plenty of time to spare. I hope it continues to be an active discussion. Counterpoint, Diiny is scum and you are being contrarian for reasons. I didn't offer a contrary perspective, so I don't know why you'd say I'm being contrarian. I advised caution and care, because I am wary of lynches that develop as easily as this Diiny wagon did. Its easiness doesn't imply it's misguided, but I do think there are countless examples of complacent wagons that have started early in a phase, lasted the long haul, and ended badly...

@Epignosis: I can understand why someone might perceive your move against Floyd to be one that promotes a policy lynch. Actually your stated reason for placing the vote is rather policy-oriented. Far too many times have I witnessed Mafia coast to endgame by staying out of it. If Floyd is Mafia, then I have no intention of letting him coast. If he's a civilian, then he's not contributing and wins if he's dead anyway (from what I understand). The highlighted portion is the definition of a lurker policy lynch. Your vote is motivated by his inactivity -- his chronic inactivity (suggests to me that your perspective extends beyond the boundaries of this game, if that's untrue then say so). Inactive players can be anything and lynching them is by nature a roll of the dice. For this reason, a vote for anyone who has actually done something suspicious, however one might define that -- think in Zebra's mindset here, would be a better vote. Zebra has expressed plenty of suspicions, so his preferred votes shouldn't need elaborating. Considering what I posted, this is a curious thing on which to concentrate. No comment on a2z's zebra shit response to FZ.? I only cited the above as a hypocritical example of misrepresentation on zebra's part. My vote of Floyd is decidedly NOT personal (policy is even the dictionary antonym of personal). zebra is therefore misrepresenting me. My point is that zebra's suspicion of FZ. is hypocritical- at best . I concentrated on the content that I had something to say about when I made that post. I agree that your Floyd vote is not personal (I do understand how Zebra could have interpreted it that way though). You seem to grant that it is a matter of policy, and I would assert that your endorsement of a policy lynch is inherently suspicious. Because policy lynches are worse than zebra shit...

In fact Epignosis, I would state that your own reasoning for a Floyd vote is not far removed from randomization , something you openly loathed on Day 1 of Talking Heads (rightfully so in my opinion). I don't think you have the content at your disposal to make a confident read on Floyd, and that means you're intention is to punish him for chronic inactivity instead of his actually being suspicious -- the result of that lynch is left to chance just like a randomized vote because there could be no conviction (as far as I can see) for either a mafia or town read on Floyd at the time of your vote...

I'm torn on Diiny. I've stated my misgivings. Here are my misgivings about my misgivings : 1.) DrWilgy asserts Diiny did not entertain the possibility that he is town despite his lie -- I disagree. I think Diiny's initial reaction could easily be described as exactly that. Maybe he's making a move here, obviously he's lying but I don't want to interfere with his maneuver immediately in case he has something up his sleeve. That is entertainment of a town angle. 2.) Diiny's responses to Wilgy changed with the passing of time. DrWilgy thinks this is unlikely town behavior, and again I am not sure I agree. It does fall in line with the prior point -- if some part of Diiny thought Wilgy might be employing a gambit that didn't necessarily have to end in a bandwagon on him, then his initial reaction could viably be to stand back and let it develop. But when that doesn't change after a day -- Doc is still making the false claim of a red peek and still endorsing a lynch, Diiny's patience would have to wear thin and so would his ability to have any trust in the guy who is screaming at the thread to slaughter him. I think there's a town angle for Diiny here. I'm not sure he handled this perfectly, but I also wonder how any of us would have handled the same scenario had Doc red peeked us instead. Doc, how do you think you'd have responded if I had opened this game with an immediate red peek on you...

Wilgy, I think that's a shit ass way to get to the end of the day. If you're not lying now, you should have ended up this fiasco way sooner. I think it twisted things, but hopefully, something good will come out of it eventually. I didn't think Diiny is bad before you came along with your gambit, and it coloured everything for me, so I'm taking my vote off. If it comes down to me against him in terms of votes, I'll put it on him again, but if not, I won't be voting him. The way he's handled everything today makes me feel good about him, and you were the real reason I voted for him. Now, looking back at everything that has transpired, the person that worries me the most is Epi. At the risk of alienating the only person that seems to defend me this game, there was something about his defence that felt like he knew defending me might come handy later on, while not really getting involved in the Diiny lynch either way. I also think the Floyd lynch is too easy, but I was too engrossed in the Diiny debacle to pursue another line. So for now, I'm moving my vote to Epi. While I haven't voted for you, I have placed you low in my rainbow so I'll try to explain my gut. I want you to have the chance to influence my read of you in direct dialogue. I think this post displays pretty clearly the concern I have with you -- that you've seen any glimmer of town in Diiny's behavior but were still willing to join his bandwagon based on a very dubious claim of a red peek by DrWilgy. This seemed opportunistic to me, almost transparently so I admit, and I struggled to reconcile it with a town mindset. Could you try to describe why you felt there was any chance of honesty in Doc's conduct...

FZ, what about Diiny's behavior today makes him look good to you...

I'm kind of annoyed you have come out so town, Doc. Makes my green peek on you seem less useful...

Doc's review of Enrique brought me to this post. u first tiger right, i'm suss of you because of your little hop away from your Diiny vote to voting Wilgy after his cop claim, to getting back on Diiny. Reads like you didn't know where to sit and now have a theory involving them both being scum. I want to hear YOUR opinion on Diiny. For the record, I've always been perfectly okay with a Diiny lynch. Wilgy did look more dangerous for a bit, but really, as long as we get a bad guy today there's no rush. Lynching DrWilgy is taking too big a risk atm when we know so little about what he's trying to do. I think Diiny is scum. I think DrWilgy most likely is but until Diiny is gone, we don't want to lynch him. :ponder: The highlighted bits seem a bit inflated to me -- as in they assign importance and seriousness to something that I don't think needs to be viewed that way. Why is lynching DrWilgy a "big risk" by comparison to lynching the guy he claimed to red peek when most of us thought it was a lie anyway? Moreover, Enrique has been entertaining the notion that Doc and Diiny are both Mafia, which makes me wonder what he thinks Diiny's lynch would reveal about Doc that he hasn't already implied. If Diiny flips town, his suspicion of Doc can persist for obvious reasons (he lied about a red peek and pushed hard for an errant lynch). If Diiny flips mafia, then his suspicion of Doc can still persist based on his own exploration of the bussing possibility. So I'm not sure this post aligns nicely with Enrique's own stated mindset...

Arbitrary theory: the people who were the quickest to verbalize the assumption that Doc's red peek was a lie are more likely to be mafia than the ones who reacted slower. The former is representative of people who have a vested interest in determining who the cop is if anyone, and without any means of privately communicating with team mates the only thing mafia members can do to speculate about the cop hunt is literally do it publicly. The ones who waited a bit longer would have been the ones giving Doc the space to employ his maneuver without interference -- this implies those people must see at least some town potential in the obvious false peek. This does not account for the players who didn't think it was a lie though. motel room and FZ would seem to fall in this category...

Can I say that I'm now really not a fan of the fake peeks strategy? I think all it's doing it diverting conversation and attention from genuine feelings. We could just as well decide that every day, each of us names a person they trust. If the cop dies, we know who he trusted without him outing himself during the game. And we don't have to suffer the pain of your silly fake peeks. By the way, wouldn't it be in the mafia's best interest to keep the cop alive as long as the other townies don't know he's the cop? That way, the civvies can't narrow things down... It is never in the mafia's best interest to keep the cop alive. In the base champs setup (9 vanilla town, 1 cop, 3 mafia), the lifespan of the cop is often the deciding factor in who wins the game. Eliminating him is priority number one for any mafia team with experience in this setup because too many peeks from him/her can literally preclude them from winning mathematically. I can understand the peeks being annoying, but I encourage you to give it a chance. My initial reaction was negative too, but I've seen how these games can be blown wide open with the objective evidence they produce. It isn't a perfect method, but it's proven and I support it...

I see what you're saying, but why is it better than just giving one name you trust? If I understood correctly, the idea of the fake peeks was to throw off the mafia while allowing the cop to leave his crumbs. Is that not right? It's a means of expressing trust for another player. That trust might be born of a typical read, or it might be born of an actual peek. It's imperative that the cop's peeks be plainly known to everyone in the event of his/her demise to prevent errant lynches on people who've been ID'd town. It's also imperative that the cop be able to leave that information in the thread without self-exposure. Seriously, give me a hand here. :eek...

There's been a lot of talk about Floyd's relative inactivity. I think we should acknowledge his more recent substantive post . I do appreciate that Floyd seems to have enough conviction to state clear stances on players, even if he is seconding the stances offered by someone else before him. I think he looks comfortable in this post, and that's not something I would have said about his content in Talking Heads. It's a small point, but I'll take anything I can get mang...

I see what you're saying, but why is it better than just giving one name you trust? If I understood correctly, the idea of the fake peeks was to throw off the mafia while allowing the cop to leave his crumbs. Is that not right? It's a means of expressing trust for another player. That trust might be born of a typical read, or it might be born of an actual peek. It's imperative that the cop's peeks be plainly known to everyone in the event of his/her demise to prevent errant lynches on people who've been ID'd town. It's also imperative that the cop be able to leave that information in the thread without self-exposure. Seriously, give me a hand here. :eek: But if so, what I'm suggesting is exactly the same. Do you read what I say? How about you give me a hand here? If we agree then there's not much else to say. :beer...

The site keeps crashing here, I'm not sure if it's just me. I have to go soon, there's no way I'll be available at EOD. It's at 2:18 a.m. my time and I work day shift now. I'll leave the best reasoned vote I can manage but the rest is up to y'all...

I wanted some ISO links. Here you go. Metalmarsh89 ~~~ a2thezebra DFaraday Diiny DrWilgy Enrique Epignosis FZ JaggedJimmyJay MacDougall motel room MovingPictures07 Sorsha TheFloyd73...