The Syndicate

sig wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:58 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:57 pm
sig wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:52 pm Also wolbre and I are from the same original site, we've aldo played on mu once together. However, every game we've played together I've been mafia or independent so I never really bothered to learn his meta.

I don't believe he's ever been mafia and is still new to mafia as a whole compared to all of us, he's also deadily as an independent and in my opinion if he's one of those three trading guys he'll side with mafia for the lolz.
But no one asked about wolbre yet.

Good to know nonetheless. Looking forward to playing with you, wolbre!
I don't like this post its weird, light scum ping on MP

I agree with you.

Also hello all.

dunya wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:05 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:57 pm
sig wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:52 pm Also wolbre and I are from the same original site, we've aldo played on mu once together. However, every game we've played together I've been mafia or independent so I never really bothered to learn his meta.

I don't believe he's ever been mafia and is still new to mafia as a whole compared to all of us, he's also deadily as an independent and in my opinion if he's one of those three trading guys he'll side with mafia for the lolz.
But no one asked about wolbre yet.
what are you implying? why did you choose to call sig out on this but not Sloonei for his meta-comments on Choutas/Colin/Kites from RYM a post above yours?

Thoughts I am having also.

(Note: I am in catchup mode)

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:25 pm
dunya wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:01 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:31 am
Scotty wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:25 am Oh and hello new faces! I would like to extend the olive branch to you at least in Day 1- I won’t be voting for you.

But if you’re a mime I’ll be all over your ass. That’s my exception.

Toodles!
This man is town.
why?
I like his olive branch deal. Takes guts, seems genuine. Scotty has to know he could draw attention to himself by stating that. The last thing mafia wants to do on Day 0/1 is draw attention.

Why are you doubling down on your read when Scotty literally told you his behaviour wasn't alignment indicative given he hadn't read his role card?

... weird.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:26 pm
dunya wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:05 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:57 pm
sig wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:52 pm Also wolbre and I are from the same original site, we've aldo played on mu once together. However, every game we've played together I've been mafia or independent so I never really bothered to learn his meta.

I don't believe he's ever been mafia and is still new to mafia as a whole compared to all of us, he's also deadily as an independent and in my opinion if he's one of those three trading guys he'll side with mafia for the lolz.
But no one asked about wolbre yet.
what are you implying? why did you choose to call sig out on this but not Sloonei for his meta-comments on Choutas/Colin/Kites from RYM a post above yours?
I'm not implying anything; I just thought it was a bit presumptuous for sig to be all like "here's some info about wolbre!" before anyone even asked. It's sig though (I love the guy but he does say things without being prompted, so it's not out of character), and I don't think there's anything meaningful there upon reflection.

It was a town ping for me. I liked the post. I found it helpful and don't find it strange in the slightest.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:33 pm
dunya wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:28 pm
Turnip Head wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:14 pm Votes are changeable
why marmot?

i'm leaning towards a scotty vote. is he usually sincere? is not voting for people you've never played with general etiquette? i've never played with him before but letting everyone he's never played with avoid his day 1 vote seems like a good way to seem friendly and agreeable.
Okay. A few things.

What kind of question is "is he usually sincere?" What does that even mean? Explain.

For some players, sure. Tends to be more so for LP-based players or old timers, but in my assessment it's not strikingly out of character for Scotty to say something like this if that's what you're wondering. Typically Scotty likes to vote for lower-participants or lurkers on Day 1; he usually has some sort of underlying method to his early votes.

And I can assume that you are taking this a step forward and implying Scotty is being disingenuous? Why single him out for that, instead of someone such as yours truly who has made a few posts that could be considered overly friendly so far?

Kudos on attempting a new posting format. Please never do it again.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:36 pm FTR, dunya, I'm just trying to get inside your brain here. I presume you're doing the same with me. I'd like to trust you, but the jury's still out for a little bit here.

Not a fan of the bolded.

Golden wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:25 pm I was up to date with the thread briefly and it's all downhill from here.

If I had to put money on MPs alignment, it's town. Like, literally his first post pinged people. That seems like town MP to me.

Interesting perspective. Do you have any tangible evidence to support your opinion?

novaselinenever wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:42 pm
sig wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:58 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:57 pm
sig wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:52 pm Also wolbre and I are from the same original site, we've aldo played on mu once together. However, every game we've played together I've been mafia or independent so I never really bothered to learn his meta.

I don't believe he's ever been mafia and is still new to mafia as a whole compared to all of us, he's also deadily as an independent and in my opinion if he's one of those three trading guys he'll side with mafia for the lolz.
But no one asked about wolbre yet.

Good to know nonetheless. Looking forward to playing with you, wolbre!
I don't like this post its weird, light scum ping on MP
What don't you like about it ? Him calling you out ?

Given I share his perspective I am going to assume you aren't trying and are bad.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:53 pm Turnip Head came in and placed an ironic joke vote on Marmot (which was funny, by the way), but then vanished without a trace. I don't like it.

At least he did something bold.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:02 pm For the moment, Scotty unfortunately remains my sole town read. He's oozing genuine vibes and I stand by my assessment that he's putting himself out there regardless of how he thinks he'll look. He's a man who doesn't give a shit. He smells town.

I'm not entirely sure what to think of dunya, Golden, speedchuck, or Turnip Head just yet.

If your name isn't in this post, it means you've done nothing of note. It's Day 1 now. Change that. Make those Persian bastards tremble. Day 1 is the best time to catch mafia. They're nervous. No mafia member wants to draw attention and be lynched Day 1. Get in here and give the thread your hot takes.

I share a town read on Scotty but I still find it very strange that you are standing by your formed read given it came primarily before you could have feasibly read him, if he is telling the truth, which I presume you think he is given he is a town read.

I found his drunk post a town ping and disregarded anything he said before that by the way.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:11 pm Actually, before I leave, I thought I should place a vote somewhere since they are changeable.

I naturally hate making scum reads this early because I'm almost always wrong at this stage and with this little thread evidence, but at this moment I'm throwing a vote at dunya. GTH she's doing exactly what I would expect her to be doing right now if mafia, and that's trying to act as if she's town but latching onto a low-hanging fruit suspect (Scotty), and from a tone POV I'm not sure I actually believe she believes what she's saying about him.

That said, I'm not sure how much of this perspective could be a result of me failing to understand where her head is at, as well as a bit of a NO U (even though I'm not even clear if she actually suspects me at all). Further, she is actually in here giving us our takes in real time which is commendable and otherwise might earn her some points from me if I was not so confused as to her POV. Consequently, I'm reserving any actual scum read until she can come in and clarify further regarding her previous lines of questioning, but I'll at least give her a vote because if I had to guess any of the active players was scum right now, it'd be her.

Okay, now

I took my tin foil hat off and I heard a voice inside my head tell me that you and Dunya are scum teammates going the distance route.

sig wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:42 pm I agree with people who say Scotty is looking good, but I could see why Dunya might think he's bad. Right now they're both leaning civ.

Sorry, what?

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:30 am
sig wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:23 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:26 pm
dunya wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:05 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:57 pm
sig wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:52 pm Also wolbre and I are from the same original site, we've aldo played on mu once together. However, every game we've played together I've been mafia or independent so I never really bothered to learn his meta.

I don't believe he's ever been mafia and is still new to mafia as a whole compared to all of us, he's also deadily as an independent and in my opinion if he's one of those three trading guys he'll side with mafia for the lolz.
But no one asked about wolbre yet.
what are you implying? why did you choose to call sig out on this but not Sloonei for his meta-comments on Choutas/Colin/Kites from RYM a post above yours?
I'm not implying anything; I just thought it was a bit presumptuous for sig to be all like "here's some info about wolbre!" before anyone even asked. It's sig though (I love the guy but he does say things without being prompted, so it's not out of character), and I don't think there's anything meaningful there upon reflection.

So nobody here minus me have played with Wolbre, so nobody has any idea of his meta or even how he acts as a person yet its presumptuous/ping worthy that I lay out what I know about his meta? This doesn't make any sense, like of course I'm going to say things without being promoted especially when its knowledge on someone only I'd have. I've done the same thing with Glorfindel multiple times which has helped us to lynch him. It's more than just weird how you jumped at me about my read it's an early game baddie move.

The underlined portion of MP's post is also out there, it seems like disingenuous backtracking since the fish weren't biting on his read or it could be since it put him in the hot seat.

Either way as of right now MP is my biggest mafia read, so I'll be throwing down a vote there. [VOTE: MP] aubergine

I also agree the Turnip thing was a bit off, but he hasn't played mafia in a year or so correct? I expect he'd be a bit rusty and maybe not ready to just jump into a game with so many new faces. However, we should keep in mind that this is a more self preservation approach which is more common among mafia.
We're sorry, but the phrases you've used here have no discrete meaning. Please, try rephrasing your thoughts so they actually mean something.

Thank you and goodbye.

Exellent opinion you have there. Mind if I share it?

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:25 am
Choutas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:21 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:01 am
Choutas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:00 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:33 am There now appear to be many game-relevant posts on day one. I blame MP, but I'm voting sloonei for now because yolo

[VOTE: sloonei] aubergine
This is sloppy. Yellow card for you another one and you get my vote.
Please, let me know what I need to do to get another yellow card.

But they're actually basically golden cards anyway.
Downplaying somebody's post.
Boom! I win!

I have a long history of taking votes on day one when town. You're finding out why right now. My day one record when not town is substantially cleaner.

Oops, there I go talking about my own meta. I ping myself!

In all seriousness though, why are you voting on such basic grounds? Don't you think it would be incredibly easy for me to have played a much cleaner game to date? My behaviour so far has been virtually asking for votes. Kyle even independent read me. Don't I strike you as an 'easy vote' right now?

You are a good player and I feel like you are playing with this post.

I mean that in a bad way.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:37 am
dunya wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:34 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:14 am My read on MP is that his purpose was "I haven't played in mafia forever can I make a read now, yes, please, thankyou!" You should always apply the 'golden retriever' test to MP first and foremost.
what's the golden retriever test? you love anything with the word "golden" don't you?
Does MP look like he's eager just to have every possible experience in the game and have a read on all players within the first ten minutes? If yes, town.

There are things with golden in that, y'know, I wouldn't know either way.

My MP town read is sincere. It's about timing. He would be shady as shit later if he was bad. The shady happened early.

Aight I was torn on you until this post.

The first sentence is far too absolute. To make such a basic but strong statement about the meta of a player as fluid (and frankly someone who has barely played in ages) is not what I expect from someone as analytically strong as you.

The bolded is the kicker. Qualifying this particular read as sincere is at worst indie indicative because it informs us that you have the capacity in your current mindset to have INSINCERE reads. How could that be the case? To be force to promote your own read as sincere, without strictly replying to a direct objection but instead having it as a qualifying comment to reinforce the rest of your post. I do not like. Not one bit.

dunya wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:11 am I want to hear more about Dom. He took the time to underline and magnify superfluous words in a sig post, but not what it meant to him, why he did it and what purpose he was trying to achieve. Since you share his feelings, Mac, what does it mean?

Sig's post is full of opinions qualified by wishy washy nothing comments and consistently crafted to remain relatively non committal.

Turnip Head wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:20 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:56 am
novaselinenever wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:42 pm
sig wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:58 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:57 pm
sig wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:52 pm Also wolbre and I are from the same original site, we've aldo played on mu once together. However, every game we've played together I've been mafia or independent so I never really bothered to learn his meta.

I don't believe he's ever been mafia and is still new to mafia as a whole compared to all of us, he's also deadily as an independent and in my opinion if he's one of those three trading guys he'll side with mafia for the lolz.
But no one asked about wolbre yet.

Good to know nonetheless. Looking forward to playing with you, wolbre!
I don't like this post its weird, light scum ping on MP
What don't you like about it ? Him calling you out ?
Given I share his perspective I am going to assume you aren't trying and are bad.
Sup Mac. I like this read on Nova, specifically the underlined feels badgery

Hello Head of Root Vegetable Used in Soups Primarily. How are you?

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:26 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:22 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:25 am
Choutas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:21 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:01 am
Choutas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:00 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:33 am There now appear to be many game-relevant posts on day one. I blame MP, but I'm voting sloonei for now because yolo

[VOTE: sloonei] aubergine
This is sloppy. Yellow card for you another one and you get my vote.
Please, let me know what I need to do to get another yellow card.

But they're actually basically golden cards anyway.
Downplaying somebody's post.
Boom! I win!

I have a long history of taking votes on day one when town. You're finding out why right now. My day one record when not town is substantially cleaner.

Oops, there I go talking about my own meta. I ping myself!

In all seriousness though, why are you voting on such basic grounds? Don't you think it would be incredibly easy for me to have played a much cleaner game to date? My behaviour so far has been virtually asking for votes. Kyle even independent read me. Don't I strike you as an 'easy vote' right now?
You are a good player and I feel like you are playing with this post.

I mean that in a bad way.
Well of course I think it's blatantly obvious I'm playing with quite a few of my posts.

If you think that's a bad look on me... well, will you ever learn? We've been here before. It's quite literally never a bad look on me.

So you think you know what I meant by that cryptic read? Interesting. Nervous. Defensive. False bravado.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:32 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:27 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:37 am
dunya wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:34 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:14 am My read on MP is that his purpose was "I haven't played in mafia forever can I make a read now, yes, please, thankyou!" You should always apply the 'golden retriever' test to MP first and foremost.
what's the golden retriever test? you love anything with the word "golden" don't you?
Does MP look like he's eager just to have every possible experience in the game and have a read on all players within the first ten minutes? If yes, town.

There are things with golden in that, y'know, I wouldn't know either way.

My MP town read is sincere. It's about timing. He would be shady as shit later if he was bad. The shady happened early.
Aight I was torn on you until this post.

The first sentence is far too absolute. To make such a basic but strong statement about the meta of a player as fluid (and frankly someone who has barely played in ages) is not what I expect from someone as analytically strong as you.

The bolded is the kicker. Qualifying this particular read as sincere is at worst indie indicative because it informs us that you have the capacity in your current mindset to have INSINCERE reads. How could that be the case? To be force to promote your own read as sincere, without strictly replying to a direct objection but instead having it as a qualifying comment to reinforce the rest of your post. I do not like. Not one bit.
My vote for sloonei was entirely insincere. If you expect everything I do as a townie to be sincere you will be disappointed.

I did not say that you (or anyone) is incapable of insincere activity. The fact that it is a read, and in the context it is in, makes your defense here extremely cynical.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:34 am I want to ask you a question Mac.

You have read me as very bad on day one many times together. Have you even once ever been right? I'm getting Star Wars mark 2 vibes from you already, and I'm trying to stare you dead in the eyes right now and tell you - you'd be unwise to go down that route.

I don't care about a game that occurred two years ago and I don't care for your discrediting my points by raising it. It's irrelevant. I am reading your posts on their current merit, in context in this game. I have no meta on you or memory of you at all aside from recalling you as a good player.

I have been making a tally of my strong pings both positive and negative.

Golden is 2/6. (Positives left and negatives right)
Scotty is 1/0.
MP is 4/4.
Sig is 1/1.
Sloonei is 2/0.
Dunya is 1/2.
Speedchuck is 1/1.
Nova is 0/1.
Kyle is 0/1.
Dom is 1/0.
Choutas is 1/0.

No real pings from anyone else.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:39 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:34 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:32 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:27 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:37 am
dunya wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:34 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:14 am My read on MP is that his purpose was "I haven't played in mafia forever can I make a read now, yes, please, thankyou!" You should always apply the 'golden retriever' test to MP first and foremost.
what's the golden retriever test? you love anything with the word "golden" don't you?
Does MP look like he's eager just to have every possible experience in the game and have a read on all players within the first ten minutes? If yes, town.

There are things with golden in that, y'know, I wouldn't know either way.

My MP town read is sincere. It's about timing. He would be shady as shit later if he was bad. The shady happened early.
Aight I was torn on you until this post.

The first sentence is far too absolute. To make such a basic but strong statement about the meta of a player as fluid (and frankly someone who has barely played in ages) is not what I expect from someone as analytically strong as you.

The bolded is the kicker. Qualifying this particular read as sincere is at worst indie indicative because it informs us that you have the capacity in your current mindset to have INSINCERE reads. How could that be the case? To be force to promote your own read as sincere, without strictly replying to a direct objection but instead having it as a qualifying comment to reinforce the rest of your post. I do not like. Not one bit.
My vote for sloonei was entirely insincere. If you expect everything I do as a townie to be sincere you will be disappointed.
I did not say that you (or anyone) is incapable of insincere activity. The fact that it is a read, and in the context it is in, makes your defense here extremely cynical.
I've made many insincere reads as a townie as well. You want an example? Look at the endgame of Currents Mafia, where I did not once read Jay as bad until I tried to CFD him, because I didn't want him to nightkill me and I was trying to time things right.

I have absolutely zero issue being insincere as a townie, reads, activity, anything.

You are saying that you withheld from expressing your active scum read on him until the lategame thus had been having insincere reads on him in the lead up? Okay thank you.

I don't think it's an apt comparison. Your play history is vast, and the particular reference you've made is tactical in the context of that game and in this particular context the comment was strange to me and I am suspicious of you because of it and other things. It was unprovoked, it was in the early game. It has a lot of context that your example doesn't.

I am rather intrigued by your style of defense. It's unique. Hard to describe. I must dwell.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:46 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:36 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:34 am I want to ask you a question Mac.

You have read me as very bad on day one many times together. Have you even once ever been right? I'm getting Star Wars mark 2 vibes from you already, and I'm trying to stare you dead in the eyes right now and tell you - you'd be unwise to go down that route.
I don't care about a game that occurred two years ago and I don't care for your discrediting my points by raising it. It's irrelevant. I am reading your posts on their current merit, in context in this game. I have no meta on you or memory of you at all aside from recalling you as a good player.
BTW for the benefit of everyone else - MacDougall tunnelled me for phases on end in this game and was wrong. I'm absolutely discrediting the points he's raising by reference to it, because the reasons he was wrong in that game are basically the same as the reasons he is wrong here. In that game I happened to be independent and was deliberately setting out to avoid nightkill. In this game I'm civ, so it's not entirely analagous, but you've got to be smart about the difference between weird and bad.

Mac says he has six negative pings on me already. If that leaves him with a mafia read on me, he clearly could not also believe I'm a savvy player. That would be me walking through the mud and then leaving muddy footprints all over the carpet.

I have found many good players scum for their day one play Golden. Feeling that you are suspicious here doesn't cancel out that I recall you as a good player.

You are making a series of overly simple and cynical defenses while insisting on discrediting my ability to read you based on one game that occurred years ago.

This is day one in a very long game and I'm just playing the game the way I always do. I'm not going to just stop suspecting you because you try to brute force me with words. This is a game where the bad guys lie and twist their perspectives so relenting on my read under your current pressure would make me a weak player.

I've no doubt that you are going to win town points for the emotional tone in your posts though.

Much water to run under this bridge. Continue your play. I will continue mine. Things will occur. Hopefully truth revealing things.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:49 am The fact this situation is different does not change the fact that, because I have insincere in my arsenal, sometimes I feel it is necessary for me to clarify.

So you are now saying that you made that post in order to inform us that that particular read was in fact, one of your sincere ones?

Ergo, you think that it is generally known that town Golden makes insincere reads throughout a game with a frequency that requires such clarification?

In simple terms, you told us your read was sincere because you thought we were maybe confused that this was one of your tricky Golden plays?

I'm sorry but I am not buying. That is such an unlikely reason to have made that post. I would have just gone with "fuck you Mac" or something sarcastic like "so you're scum reading me for being sincere... goooood one" with a meme of that guy that got angry at the cop for touching his penis when they were arresting him.

That being said I'm want to give you some benefit of mathematical doubt and consider it unlikely that I am going to rally your lynch on day one given your co-ownership of the thread thus far.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:01 am You even have me questioning my MP read with that MP/dunya tinfoil tbh

Be sure to know, that I am not the terrorising, tunneling, tormentor I once was. If I find reason to rescind my reservations about you I shall submit to them and recant all previous posts promoting my analysis. I do not often accept direct defenses as valid though, as posts are most carefully crafted by those with the desire to do so. Therefore if you have a genuine interesting in altering my perception of your play it is best done by winning some positive ping points on the pingometer (yes I've legitimately got a spreadsheet going that I've called the pingometer).

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:11 am And I actually say that in all seriousness, because I like the method. It has merit. But it’s volume based, and mafia hide quietly.

It isn't something I intend to maintain past day 1 when everyone is still feeling their way into the thread and the scum-flavoured strawberries are at their freshest and ashiest.

I do agree with the point you raise. This is why I would place Nova lower on any list than you. His ping was of much higher quality. It made me scrunch up my face. It smelled like burnt furniture, with a hint of photo albums and kitchen utensils. He also doesn't have positive pings to give me pause on my perspective, like you do.

One last prod Golden before I start antagonising MP now that he's returned.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:34 am I want to ask you a question Mac.

You have read me as very bad on day one many times together. Have you even once ever been right? I'm getting Star Wars mark 2 vibes from you already, and I'm trying to stare you dead in the eyes right now and tell you - you'd be unwise to go down that route.

Have I? Please refresh my memory that this is a consistent pattern? Pointing at a game in which you were an independent as an argument as to why my ability to catch you on day one is poor is quite an interesting defense to say the least.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:18 am I agree on nova. But he’s also a newbie to me.

The difference of opinion I have is that I actually agree with nova. Sigs post was just a big no u and I don’t think it was a great post from sig either. But what’s the value in calling out the no u in question form? To me it’s like the old lawyer tenet ‘never ask a question you don’t know the answer to’. They’re probably amongst the safest questions asked in the thread.

I found it bad for the following reasons;

It was going after a player who was beginning to be questioned by stronger players (safety in numbers).
It wasn't strange to me, so I don't understand why it bugged Nova.
It was short, so as to decrease the opportunities for Nova to make any mistakes. Short and nervy. False bravado.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:22 am Hello, Mac!

Hello, old friend, nemesis, confidante, ally, associate, rival, opponent, challenger, Gary Oak to my Hiker Joe.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:23 am Why? I was independently benign with no anti-town intent or conduct and playing the game with a particular angle which in that case was my win con. You were taken with aspects of my behaviour that I think could better be described as weird. You misread my angle. I don’t see the comparison as strange in the least.

I’m not saying I’m independent here - I’m town... what I’m saying is you get pinged by the behaviour of how you think I should act, but there’s history showing I don’t fit in a box.

Eh I find it hard to believe that you played the game straight up civ all the way through. I'm confident that I picked up on something to give me that read. Anyway, the question was do you have anything else aside from that game.

I guess I should just go ahead and ignore all I know about playing the game and read you upside down then? No, I'll just do my thing thank you.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:24 am I think talking heads was another Mac and I think there’s a third. But I remember some games well and others not so much.

Bro, I was scum in Talking Heads. Try again. If you're going to try to discredit my points because you feel there is a pattern to me incorrectly scum reading you as town so far you've only pointed at a game I was scum and a game you were indie.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:29 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:25 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:23 am Why? I was independently benign with no anti-town intent or conduct and playing the game with a particular angle which in that case was my win con. You were taken with aspects of my behaviour that I think could better be described as weird. You misread my angle. I don’t see the comparison as strange in the least.

I’m not saying I’m independent here - I’m town... what I’m saying is you get pinged by the behaviour of how you think I should act, but there’s history showing I don’t fit in a box.
Eh I find it hard to believe that you played the game straight up civ all the way through. I'm confident that I picked up on something to give me that read. Anyway, the question was do you have anything else aside from that game.

I guess I should just go ahead and ignore all I know about playing the game and read you upside down then? No, I'll just do my thing thank you.
I’m not saying you didn’t have a reason. It was just incorrect.

You can only put the emphasis on meta that you think is appropriate. Our history is one of you reading me poorly, which is my point - but you can only be swayed by that to the extent you’re comfortable being swayed by it. I personally use my history of reading others as a shining beacon, so for me it’s natural to point these things out, but you can only use them as feels comfortable.

You keep saying this but you've really supplied no evidence to back that up. Even though I will reaffirm my position that I find it completely irrelevant as a defense to begin with.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:27 am
dunya wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:07 am
Kylemii wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:45 pm @Golden what's ur recent history? did u play/host many games while i wasn't around
kyle is being kyle with his data gathering methods. digging this.
What do you mean by this?

If I answer for her, would that be bothersome for any scum hunting endeavours you may have here?

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:31 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:27 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:24 am I think talking heads was another Mac and I think there’s a third. But I remember some games well and others not so much.
Bro, I was scum in Talking Heads. Try again. If you're going to try to discredit my points because you feel there is a pattern to me incorrectly scum reading you as town so far you've only pointed at a game I was scum and a game you were indie.
Ha, well I didn’t remember that bit.

Look, if you can name a time you’ve ever read me as bad and been right I’ll hand it to you. I don’t believe it exists. This is the reason I’m saying throw out your tellson me - but again you can only do what you’re comfortable doing.

No man. That's not how this works. I made accusations of you and you tried to discredit me by claiming I misread you all the time. You have failed to show evidence of that. Evidence of me previously reading you well is not required here as I have a good amount of your own posts right here that speak for themselves so I don't need to point at any mystical ability to read you. This is not me making random gut reads on people and pointing at mystic Mac powers. This is you making posts, me finding them suspect, and me finding your reactions as supporting my perspective.

I wouldn't ask of anyone to show evidence that they've caught you before to prove that they make good cases on you. Besides, and I will say it again, even if you HAVE evidence that I read you poorly consistently:

a) It's outdated, it's old
b) I put it to you, that the vast majority of anybody's reads are wrong
c) It's such a small sample size that the two immediate games that sprung to your mind, you were indie in one and I was scum in the other

Moving on. I've made my points. I hope people read them and comment. It would be a shame if they were skimmed.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:37 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:29 am Straight answers might give you answers, but it doesn’t give me any.

Don’t try and catch me in semantics. It’s not a game I’ll play. If you can answer my question (and yes, anyone who has read my iso ought to be able to), then I’ll beloeve your questions are in good faith. Right now I don’t - I think they are just to generate content. None of the questions you’ve asked me have any meaning - you’re trying to push me into defending the idea that I can believe sig has a bad read on mp while holding my own town view. I can hold both those views at once, and I’m not going to let that be used against me.
Golden is town.

Eat shit.

Choutas is voting for Golden. There's a he is Greek, golden dawn, fascist joke in there somewhere.

Hurry up and catch up so I can scold you.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:37 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:31 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:27 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:24 am I think talking heads was another Mac and I think there’s a third. But I remember some games well and others not so much.
Bro, I was scum in Talking Heads. Try again. If you're going to try to discredit my points because you feel there is a pattern to me incorrectly scum reading you as town so far you've only pointed at a game I was scum and a game you were indie.
Ha, well I didn’t remember that bit.

Look, if you can name a time you’ve ever read me as bad and been right I’ll hand it to you. I don’t believe it exists. This is the reason I’m saying throw out your tellson me - but again you can only do what you’re comfortable doing.
No man. That's not how this works. I made accusations of you and you tried to discredit me by claiming I misread you all the time. You have failed to show evidence of that. Evidence of me previously reading you well is not required here as I have a good amount of your own posts right here that speak for themselves so I don't need to point at any mystical ability to read you. This is not me making random gut reads on people and pointing at mystic Mac powers. This is you making posts, me finding them suspect, and me finding your reactions as supporting my perspective.

I wouldn't ask of anyone to show evidence that they've caught you before to prove that they make good cases on you. Besides, and I will say it again, even if you HAVE evidence that I read you poorly consistently:

a) It's outdated, it's old
b) I put it to you, that the vast majority of anybody's reads are wrong
c) It's such a small sample size that the two immediate games that sprung to your mind, you were indie in one and I was scum in the other

Moving on. I've made my points. I hope people read them and comment. It would be a shame if they were skimmed.
You don’t get it. I’m not defending myself. I’m trying to help you read me better.

Anyone who knows me well will probably be reading me as hard town by now. This playstyle does not exist on my baddie spectrum at all.

You can choose to do with it what you will but... if you don’t listen this time, please don’t forget. Remember next time.

If only this game were so easy.

The objective of good scum play is to play like you do when town Golden. These types of comments just do not appeal to me.

Playing as Mafia 101

Professor Mac:

"Here are 5 common scum tropes that somehow always work on people:

Do you really think I would do X if I was bad?
Fuck this, I'm out
You never read me correctly
Would I have really bussed Steve in that situation?
This isn't my scum meta

Thanks for attending. You all get a c because I am a shit professor."

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:45 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:51 am
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:25 pm
dunya wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:01 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:31 am
Scotty wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:25 am Oh and hello new faces! I would like to extend the olive branch to you at least in Day 1- I won’t be voting for you.

But if you’re a mime I’ll be all over your ass. That’s my exception.

Toodles!
This man is town.
why?
I like his olive branch deal. Takes guts, seems genuine. Scotty has to know he could draw attention to himself by stating that. The last thing mafia wants to do on Day 0/1 is draw attention.
Why are you doubling down on your read when Scotty literally told you his behaviour wasn't alignment indicative given he hadn't read his role card?

... weird.
It was my read, and I was explaining it. I'm not going to let some WIFOMy "ooooh did I read my role card yet?!" thing get in the way of that.

Imma let you finish then tell you why this post is lame.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:45 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:54 am
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:36 pm FTR, dunya, I'm just trying to get inside your brain here. I presume you're doing the same with me. I'd like to trust you, but the jury's still out for a little bit here.
Not a fan of the bolded.
Explain.

Dunno why you'd like to trust her. Don't know why you feel the need to say it. Feels like trying to pacify Dunya. Wouldn't you rather distrust her and then lynch her?

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:46 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:03 am
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:02 pm For the moment, Scotty unfortunately remains my sole town read. He's oozing genuine vibes and I stand by my assessment that he's putting himself out there regardless of how he thinks he'll look. He's a man who doesn't give a shit. He smells town.

I'm not entirely sure what to think of dunya, Golden, speedchuck, or Turnip Head just yet.

If your name isn't in this post, it means you've done nothing of note. It's Day 1 now. Change that. Make those Persian bastards tremble. Day 1 is the best time to catch mafia. They're nervous. No mafia member wants to draw attention and be lynched Day 1. Get in here and give the thread your hot takes.

I share a town read on Scotty but I still find it very strange that you are standing by your formed read given it came primarily before you could have feasibly read him, if he is telling the truth, which I presume you think he is given he is a town read.

I found his drunk post a town ping and disregarded anything he said before that by the way.
Because I continued to find his behavior town after the fact. Did you not read that?

Nope, missed it. Please point at it.

Good lord this game is going to be long.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:48 am
dunya wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:11 am I want to hear more about Dom. He took the time to underline and magnify superfluous words in a sig post, but not what it meant to him, why he did it and what purpose he was trying to achieve. Since you share his feelings, Mac, what does it mean?
This is a good point.

Also, why has Dom not suspected me yet?

This is a good point

.

Dunno about Dunia's point. I thought it was pretty obvious what Dom was getting at. Really weak from Master Town Dunya tbh.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:50 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:43 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:37 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:31 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:27 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:24 am I think talking heads was another Mac and I think there’s a third. But I remember some games well and others not so much.
Bro, I was scum in Talking Heads. Try again. If you're going to try to discredit my points because you feel there is a pattern to me incorrectly scum reading you as town so far you've only pointed at a game I was scum and a game you were indie.
Ha, well I didn’t remember that bit.

Look, if you can name a time you’ve ever read me as bad and been right I’ll hand it to you. I don’t believe it exists. This is the reason I’m saying throw out your tellson me - but again you can only do what you’re comfortable doing.
No man. That's not how this works. I made accusations of you and you tried to discredit me by claiming I misread you all the time. You have failed to show evidence of that. Evidence of me previously reading you well is not required here as I have a good amount of your own posts right here that speak for themselves so I don't need to point at any mystical ability to read you. This is not me making random gut reads on people and pointing at mystic Mac powers. This is you making posts, me finding them suspect, and me finding your reactions as supporting my perspective.

I wouldn't ask of anyone to show evidence that they've caught you before to prove that they make good cases on you. Besides, and I will say it again, even if you HAVE evidence that I read you poorly consistently:

a) It's outdated, it's old
b) I put it to you, that the vast majority of anybody's reads are wrong
c) It's such a small sample size that the two immediate games that sprung to your mind, you were indie in one and I was scum in the other

Moving on. I've made my points. I hope people read them and comment. It would be a shame if they were skimmed.
You don’t get it. I’m not defending myself. I’m trying to help you read me better.

Anyone who knows me well will probably be reading me as hard town by now. This playstyle does not exist on my baddie spectrum at all.

You can choose to do with it what you will but... if you don’t listen this time, please don’t forget. Remember next time.
If only this game were so easy.

The objective of good scum play is to play like you do when town Golden. These types of comments just do not appeal to me.
The objective of my civ game is to maintain multiple cub metas so that when I want to I can be easily identified as civ because, for example, I’m very busy in real life, but without compromising on my ability to win as scum because it looks like my cleaner, more cautious civ meta.

Messy golden is always civ golden. Book it.

Yes until he isn't, and then we're all idiots.

"I'm playing weird and making all these scummy looking posts because I'm good, like always."

Lucky for us you're here to tell us your own meta so we don't accidentally lynch you.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:52 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:27 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:37 am
dunya wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:34 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:14 am My read on MP is that his purpose was "I haven't played in mafia forever can I make a read now, yes, please, thankyou!" You should always apply the 'golden retriever' test to MP first and foremost.
what's the golden retriever test? you love anything with the word "golden" don't you?
Does MP look like he's eager just to have every possible experience in the game and have a read on all players within the first ten minutes? If yes, town.

There are things with golden in that, y'know, I wouldn't know either way.

My MP town read is sincere. It's about timing. He would be shady as shit later if he was bad. The shady happened early.
Aight I was torn on you until this post.

The first sentence is far too absolute. To make such a basic but strong statement about the meta of a player as fluid (and frankly someone who has barely played in ages) is not what I expect from someone as analytically strong as you.

The bolded is the kicker. Qualifying this particular read as sincere is at worst indie indicative because it informs us that you have the capacity in your current mindset to have INSINCERE reads. How could that be the case? To be force to promote your own read as sincere, without strictly replying to a direct objection but instead having it as a qualifying comment to reinforce the rest of your post. I do not like. Not one bit.
The first point; nah, Golden makes bold meta assessments like that all the time I would say.

But I'll actually give it to you here regarding your second point. I'm thinking on it a bit though. Partially because I feel like there might be situations where I say something like that in defense if town and under attack. It's like, I can see entirely where you're coming from because to emphasize sincere means there is a capacity for insincere reads (and so therefore a scum Golden is emphasizing that he genuinely believes I'm town even though he's scum and could make insincere reads later), so that's a good point. I wonder though whether someone would say that as a defense against others though, just "I'm being sincere" equated with "I'm town, back away" kind of thing. What do you think?

Anything, everything, is always possible. Let me try this on and then see how it feels...

My read on Golden is sincere... see nah. I just don't like it in the context of my town role card. The word sincere just bugs the fuck out of me. But he went on to explain that he literally was intending to point out that it was sincere as opposed to his common insincere townie reads... so I guess that settles it.

But the post and then the subsequent attempt to explain it set off the Pingometer 5000 (I upgraded). So no, it doesn't.

Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:55 am On this one, there will never be an isn’t. Absolutely never. It’s too valuable to me to maintain the readable town meta for when I need it.

Hyperbole. You'd do it. You barely play any more. It's a glory play. In subsequent games you'd just say "I'd never do it twice" or something to that effect because why wouldn't you. This entire line of thinking is wifom anyway. It explains nothing. You have no decided to put all my in context points against you into a box marked "messy game Golden" to dismiss them.

Man there are so many fucking chips in this pot it's ridiculous. Will I fold? Let's find out.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:58 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:53 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:46 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:36 am
Golden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:34 am I want to ask you a question Mac.

You have read me as very bad on day one many times together. Have you even once ever been right? I'm getting Star Wars mark 2 vibes from you already, and I'm trying to stare you dead in the eyes right now and tell you - you'd be unwise to go down that route.
I don't care about a game that occurred two years ago and I don't care for your discrediting my points by raising it. It's irrelevant. I am reading your posts on their current merit, in context in this game. I have no meta on you or memory of you at all aside from recalling you as a good player.
BTW for the benefit of everyone else - MacDougall tunnelled me for phases on end in this game and was wrong. I'm absolutely discrediting the points he's raising by reference to it, because the reasons he was wrong in that game are basically the same as the reasons he is wrong here. In that game I happened to be independent and was deliberately setting out to avoid nightkill. In this game I'm civ, so it's not entirely analagous, but you've got to be smart about the difference between weird and bad.

Mac says he has six negative pings on me already. If that leaves him with a mafia read on me, he clearly could not also believe I'm a savvy player. That would be me walking through the mud and then leaving muddy footprints all over the carpet.
I have found many good players scum for their day one play Golden. Feeling that you are suspicious here doesn't cancel out that I recall you as a good player.

You are making a series of overly simple and cynical defenses while insisting on discrediting my ability to read you based on one game that occurred years ago.

This is day one in a very long game and I'm just playing the game the way I always do. I'm not going to just stop suspecting you because you try to brute force me with words. This is a game where the bad guys lie and twist their perspectives so relenting on my read under your current pressure would make me a weak player.

I've no doubt that you are going to win town points for the emotional tone in your posts though.

Much water to run under this bridge. Continue your play. I will continue mine. Things will occur. Hopefully truth revealing things.
Precisely why he's town.

Have never and will never accept this type of thinking. This is on par with "dude is town because he told me to fuck off". Scummy play is scummy play. If he's town and he's lynched for scummy play, then I lose no sleep. If he's scum and he wins because townies point out that him playing scummy is his town meta, then I would go Liam Neeson on everyone.

Besides, when was the last time you two legitimately played a game together?

FYI Golden I am trying not to tunnel you I have just seen a whole hell of a lot of stuff I have felt strongly enough to have to object to from both you and MP.

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