The Syndicate

tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:08 pm hiii

town once again. never maf. livin the good life

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:08 pm haha im a civvie haha

Benson wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:09 pm Hi. I'm Benson (aka Beluga Whale) and I hate losing.

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:12 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:13 pm I wouldn't waste a post on just a greeting, but I expect we will all get checked in and make our decisions so that day zero ends early so not worrying.

Hey everybody! Glad to be playing. Glad to have a new to me forum, and a host with a game, and just feeling good!

Benson wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:21 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:18 pm anyway how are we feeling about the concept of property rights today?

That the wolves shouldn't be allowed to own any property in my thread.

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:22 pm

Benson wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:21 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:18 pm anyway how are we feeling about the concept of property rights today?

That the wolves shouldn't be allowed to own any property in my thread.

doesnt sound very principled idk mind writing a treatise on this?

Amy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:26 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:21 pm didnt realize zack was a philosopher

i've always preferred the classics

anyways: hello and sorry and advance to those who don't know me. i help run mafia universe and i assure you it's not a position i attained through prowess at the game

there's like a 70% chance i'm legit just gonna fuck off until d1 glgl

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:33 pm There is only one serious philosophical problem, and that is why I don’t have a girlfriend.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:35 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:33 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:32 pm Pretty fucked up that I went to the trouble to get into this game with tutuu just to have her roll scum.

[VOTE: tutuu] aubergine

WOW WTF

Town tutuu D0: is excited to play the game, tells all the people she likes to play with how much she wants to play with them, pre-emptively townreads people based on town and/or enthusiasm so she can start forming a towncore of people she trusts.

Scum tutuu D0: I'm TOWN everyone. I'm innocent TOWN. Have I mentioned I'm TOWN?

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:36 pmim town btw

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:37 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:30 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:29 pm

Amy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:26 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:21 pm didnt realize zack was a philosopher

i've always preferred the classics

anyways: hello and sorry and advance to those who don't know me. i help run mafia universe and i assure you it's not a position i attained through prowess at the game

there's like a 70% chance i'm legit just gonna fuck off until d1 glgl

As long as we have provided the answers Tony needs to advance the game to day one this seems like the legit best strat tbh.

how so? do you not believe in day 0 intros being readable?

They are on par with the early day one RVS and shiptoasting stage, which we will have plenty of time for day one.

I guess I was thinking more in terms of getting our answers in and moving on as opposed to stretching day zero looking for benefits...but you raise a valid point. If you want to stretch it out and have an extended meet and greet that can be fun and maybe productive. I'm in.

tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:38 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:35 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:33 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:32 pm Pretty fucked up that I went to the trouble to get into this game with tutuu just to have her roll scum.

[VOTE: tutuu] aubergine

WOW WTF

Town tutuu D0: is excited to play the game, tells all the people she likes to play with how much she wants to play with them, pre-emptively townreads people based on town and/or enthusiasm so she can start forming a towncore of people she trusts.

Scum tutuu D0: I'm TOWN everyone. I'm innocent TOWN. Have I mentioned I'm TOWN?

well i wasnt like jumping up and down but i was lowkey pleasant sensation from seeing i rolled town and then i tried to talk to ppl but they were all friends in between themselves and they were talking to each other and i didnt know how to interject without being too awkward so i just said the stuff i said in case someone wanted to maybe start a conversation with me or something

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:44 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:43 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:41 pmi have my ways

this man about to change the definition of a number, watch out mathematicians

have you been introduced to our lord and savior, "surreal numbers"?

https://www.whitman.edu/documents/Acade ... /Grimm.pdf

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:50 pm alison / tutuu is a civ on civ conflict

i can tell by the pixels

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:05 pm "Tunnel" is an interesting choice of words, given that I've made one post calling tutuu scum, one post explaining the read, and then another post explaining that the read is serious.

[VOTE: iaafr] aubergine

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:58 pm i just reread the entire thread and wow im actually pretty scummy wonder how many people are scumreading me

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:12 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:08 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:05 pm "Tunnel" is an interesting choice of words, given that I've made one post calling tutuu scum, one post explaining the read, and then another post explaining that the read is serious.

[VOTE: iaafr] aubergine

my word choice is a bit imprecise sometimes and i use connotations that dont quite work

but i got a vibe of "tunnel" from my perceived strength of the scumread there. didn't mean to imply it was persisting a long time. how's bad word choice ai though?

my rhythms too even, the "nerdlean" post was a bit scummy in itself (kinda forced joke feel adjacent to actual read but not actual read), responding to too many people and therefore exuding nervous energy

1) Calling someone's read a tunnel without explaining your reasoning is a lazy way of discrediting it.

2) The second bit, about your rhythms, sounds like you have TMI on yourself. Nobody thought it was scummy, but you're scum so you feel guilty/paranoid about all your posts and want to pre-emptively head off attacks.

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:15 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:14 pm i only wanted to call civ/civ for the postgame cred tbqh

and i actually know how to post towny as scum i just sandbag as town and post stupid shit because i always become obvtown anyway

we'll see if i live up to that next phase i suppose

is this a scumslip

Benson wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:16 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:10 pm

Benson wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:08 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:06 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:58 pm i just reread the entire thread and wow im actually pretty scummy wonder how many people are scumreading me

actually i disagree? i thought u were kinda towny

why did u scumread yourself? i wanna argue your read on yourself

WAIT

OK, this might be wolfy.

I'm interested. Why is it wolfy?

I don't know if wanting to disagree and saying he's been towny feels natural. Like what was even towny anyways? Idk, that's obviously not a compelling argument.
But it's always easier for wolves to just pop-in to express disagreement in places where they *know* they are correct. You know?

tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:17 pm 19/30

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:08 pm Now to decide if "esoteric reasoning" is short for "I want to defend my scum buddy" or "I know tutuu is town because I have TMI". It's probably the latter and calling us V/V is just a pocket attempt.

are u saying this to get the ball rolling or is this genuine town alison? cuz i know that u like being serious or at least u come off often like that, and admittedly i dont know u that well yet but im puzzled as to why u just "reveal ur cards" like that? like, if u wanted to do what u said in this post, why wouldnt u question iaafr so u can then decide based off of his answer? why are u telling him pre-emptively what are u planning to do?


i am also very puzzled at iaafr scumcasing his own post. i thought he's towny and its kinda funny how hard he tried to scumcase himself

and finally im puzzled at benson's post calling my post scummy. maybe im biased cuz i know im town but from my pov i was just being real, and i ended my post with a slight joke "i wanna argue your read on yourself" like i just tought it sounded cute

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:28 pm

Benson wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:16 pm I don't know if wanting to disagree and saying he's been towny feels natural. Like what was even towny anyways? Idk, that's obviously not a compelling argument.
But it's always easier for wolves to just pop-in to express disagreement in places where they *know* they are correct. You know?

It's the same argument I used with iaafr's read on tutuu/me as V/V, actually.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:32 pm I actually think iaafr thinking his own play is scummy, and scrutinizing it, and half-jokingly(?) calling it scummy is pretty sketchy. On average, wolves tend to be far more aware of how scummy their posts look (with some exceptions), and they often see those posts as scummier than average because they're biased knowing their own alignment. Scumreading his own play is I think a pre-emptive thing to get ahead of people who might want to call those posts out and make them feel silly for doing so.

The bolded is true but I don't think wolves usually want to draw attention to it tbh

Idk does anyone that's played with iaafr a lot think he'd wanna do this as scum?

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:32 pm I actually think iaafr thinking his own play is scummy, and scrutinizing it, and half-jokingly(?) calling it scummy is pretty sketchy. On average, wolves tend to be far more aware of how scummy their posts look (with some exceptions), and they often see those posts as scummier than average because they're biased knowing their own alignment. Scumreading his own play is I think a pre-emptive thing to get ahead of people who might want to call those posts out and make them feel silly for doing so.

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:31 am

Spoiler: show

...while writing that post I thought more about some stuff rabbit posted and realized he probably is just lock town lmao.

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:48 am Shakespeare reference in a Philosopher game.

I'll go with towny on that.

Amy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:17 am i guess honestly given that it's d0 and doesn't matter, and that the threadstate mostly reflects this, it's probably lightly villagery in a vacuum for anyone to be actually Playing The Game at this point

which i think looks best for alison because she's taking it the most seriously

6/30

Amy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:10 am

tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:52 pm 24/30

tr on tim, i think its towny that he spent a post saying "wait did X rly do Y?" instead of taking 5 secs to scroll back and see for it himself. and im kinda feeling like he still didnt bother going back to look for it, he just assumed what im saying is true and went along with it and made a joke

this is a bad read on tim, because tim is a player who's generally extremely cognizant of his own posting and able to deliberately fake stuff like this as a wolf quite well

that said i think it's kind of villagery to make this read, maybe?

i'm torn on tutuu in general because i think the way they kinda jumped us out of shitposting phase by taking a jokepost seriously is something i've seen both alignments do and i'm not entirely sure which one i'm looking at here. gth probably v off tone but far from sure

4/30

protocultures wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:51 am
“SHUT UP ALISON” is something Tutuu likely says if they are in scumchat together. Its too angry for town Tutuu to say to Alison. They are besties.

protocultures wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:51 am Also, why are people voting on Day 0? isnt this a meet and greet but nothing happens?

This is my first closed forum game. Second forum game ever (have one more in progress). I have never rolled mafia in forum, so theres no baseline to look for.

tutuu wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:59 am 29/30

tr on proto, i think he believes the stuff he believes. (u can call this sort of a meta read). if ur unsatisfied with this explanation u can ask me for further stuff to say

i have 2 choices for alison. 1) tr her for her enthusiasm to try to catch me scum or 2) scumread her if i put the bar a little higher and expect her to not make overly wrong reads on me. and i think her second post saying "town tutuu does X and scum tutuu does Y" was silly considering the game was like 30-40 posts in none of my friends had even posted by that point AND also the fact that she has never seen me play mafia so idk how could she say with confidence what would maf tutuu do. Despite her being wrong on both of these stuff gth i still wanna call her town. perhaps part of ot could be rock-paper-scissors fallacy (i just invented this fallacy). basically rock paper scissors is down to luck, but also not. so in this context i think that if alison rolled mafia against me this game and she saw that i was town, i think her approach wouldnt be to start by making an illogical push on me (this is the rock paper scissors). so she can b lean town

i also slightly wanna tr nanook primarily cuz he called me town and i liked it.

i read ur stuff about tim, amy, and respectfully i will disagree, ive never played with him b4 but i still think i saw a town posting town stuff, so

Reads:
tutuu
proto

tim
alison

nanook

rest

Benson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:04 am

KZA wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:52 am

I like to $#%#post with my morning coffee before work.

Understandable. Have a nice day.


Actually, I want to talk about proto's entrance because I'm surprised no one else is talking about that (unless I missed it). I'm talking specially about the self-conscious meta talk as the first thing they wrote.
Because on the surface it gives me super wolfy vibes, even if it was probably written by a villager *that just plays like that*. Anyone else put off by that or have a take on this?

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:13 am

Benson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:04 am Actually, I want to talk about proto's entrance because I'm surprised no one else is talking about that (unless I missed it). I'm talking specially about the self-conscious meta talk as the first thing they wrote.
Because on the surface it gives me super wolfy vibes, even if it was probably written by a villager *that just plays like that*. Anyone else put off by that or have a take on this?

I haven't started playing serious yet, but if I did it would be something I'd bring up too. Self-aware and some reads seem forced.

Scirrus' entrance also poor. Generic roleplay that attempts to disguise an uncomfortable thread entrance.

But I'm not playing serious yet, so I'll just have to wait to mention these thoughts until I am.

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:20 pm

Benson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:04 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:05 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:57 am Guys I just realised our host needs to start his semifinal game in like four days.

Let's go for the sweep so he won't be distracted.

I played in a game that was hosted by a champs participant during their qualifying match. They did fine and directly advanced. I have every confidence that TSP can handle this.

Besides, for wolves even a sweep takes many days and you my dear root vegetable are far from a lock town at this point.

I like the insertion of that subtle assumption into the conversation though, even if I had to reject it. Points for effort.

28

This post seems kinda serious compared to what it's responding to. Hmm.



Mafia philosophical question: is intuition or rationality more important to you when forming reads? Or is that a bad dichotomy.

God, I hope we get to the next phase and I can post tonight.

It may be far less serious than it appears.

Or it may be highly nuanced. Perhaps...

It expresses support for and confidence in the host, possibly attempting to pocket him for reasons unknown.
It fires a warning shot across the bow for Master Radishes implying that his posts will be assessed with more than just a casual level of scrutiny.
It serves to warn other players that subtle assumptions made about innocuous posts can be used to influence their subsequent reads, and that a highly evolved wolf such as Master Radishes would be if he randed wolf may use such tactics.
It also serves as fair warning that if I had randed wolf I also am a wolf of that nature so should be handled carefully.
It produces the wifom that if I HAD randed wolf I would not want townies to start thinking on such subtle levels so I would have just let it pass, so it effectively town tells me.

Or it could have just been the setup line for a joke about common root vegetables and Master Radishes. I leave it to you to determine for yourself whether to treat me as a highly nuanced player looking five layers deep into every post made, or to treat me as a happy go lucky jokester giving a day zero exactly the minimal weight that it probably deserves.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:30 pm tutuu is town for that massive wall of text with incredibly convoluted reasoning about my alignment. Wolves don't put their mind so deep into the weeds for someone whose alignment they already know.

I'm gut reading proto town.

MR and tim have some W/W equity for a very "theater"-like interaction.

Benson seems like he's lonely and trying to reach out to people, which is town. Also Benson, my experience with proto has led me to feel absolutely no discomfort at his "self-conscious meta talk". I get why you feel suspicious about it - I had similar thoughts on iaafr. I'm just saying, from my own meta experience it's not something I'm concerned about.

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:41 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:36 pm nutella/MR, talk to me about the Scirrus entrance. What makes it any different from the other "roleplayish" entrances in this game?

I'd say his is the most purely rp-based and feels detached from the game in a way that I think fits as a scum trying to appear casual upon entry

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:34 pm I have decided to go back to just posting things that are funny since apparently no one cared about what I thought.

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:21 pm

Spoiler: show

Amy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:06 am

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:32 pm I actually think iaafr thinking his own play is scummy, and scrutinizing it, and half-jokingly(?) calling it scummy is pretty sketchy. On average, wolves tend to be far more aware of how scummy their posts look (with some exceptions), and they often see those posts as scummier than average because they're biased knowing their own alignment. Scumreading his own play is I think a pre-emptive thing to get ahead of people who might want to call those posts out and make them feel silly for doing so.

i want it known that he did something similar in his last non-mash towngame and kept it up for all of d1. this is NAI for him

nutella wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:34 pm I agree with this yeah, I think he's deffo in wolfrange so far

and you should know this, because you were in that game. what's different about him here?

3/30

Amy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:10 am

tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:52 pm 24/30

tr on tim, i think its towny that he spent a post saying "wait did X rly do Y?" instead of taking 5 secs to scroll back and see for it himself. and im kinda feeling like he still didnt bother going back to look for it, he just assumed what im saying is true and went along with it and made a joke

this is a bad read on tim, because tim is a player who's generally extremely cognizant of his own posting and able to deliberately fake stuff like this as a wolf quite well

that said i think it's kind of villagery to make this read, maybe?

i'm torn on tutuu in general because i think the way they kinda jumped us out of shitposting phase by taking a jokepost seriously is something i've seen both alignments do and i'm not entirely sure which one i'm looking at here. gth probably v off tone but far from sure

4/30

Amy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:14 am

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:09 am If we're reading alignment based on avatars then a Your Name avatar has to be lock town right? Like that movie is on par with Madoka Magica.

Anyway even if the "call your own play scummy" thing is NAI for him I think the rest of my points are still valid.

i haven't seen madoka magica but i'm already pocketed gg

i think your disliking the use of the word "tunnel" there is again somewhat NAI for iaafr; i think there may be something to your point on potential TMI on you/tutuu but i'm not willing to go anywhere near that until people start flipping, i think

idk i guess i just struggle to see anything iaafr's really done so far as being anything other than "iaafr being iaafr"

5/30

Amy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:17 am i guess honestly given that it's d0 and doesn't matter, and that the threadstate mostly reflects this, it's probably lightly villagery in a vacuum for anyone to be actually Playing The Game at this point

which i think looks best for alison because she's taking it the most seriously

6/30

Amy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:18 am

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:15 am Premature. Not bad. It was reasoned. Amy is correct that there was absolutely nothing outside my wolf range there, but as long as you give solid reasoning you aren't making a bad read. Just don't count it as a conclusion.

yeah perhaps better phrasing would have been "bad way to read tim specifically"

side note ctrl+i not italicizing on this forum is yet another reason why phpBB needs to go away

7/30

Amy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:23 am

protocultures wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:23 am framing their introduction
background state of mind
this person comes to meme
and be excused for this mentality later in the game

do you not find it scummy?

it's a copypasta. i didn't write it

amy posts enclosed

these are all scum posts

first is scum post, meme copypasta that's not particularly original or fitting is >rand scum (based on experience with wiggles doing it once as scum, n=1 reads goat)

everything amy's posted so far is easily postable as scum. like scarily easily. i can't find a single thought by amy that makes me want to town her, and i don't think she'd be QUITE this underwhelming as town. think she's just low wim scum because she didn't particularly want to rand scum here and can't find the motivation to put her pride on the line by trying particularly hard. clarifying that the first post was a meme (and therefore invalid reason to sus) is a bit on the flatly defensive side; that sort of sus couldve been handled in a lot more playful manner (this point might be the weakest). amy is just completely transparently joyless in this game, and i think that's because of her alignment.

might not be a particularly convincing case, but i feel pretty good about this scumread.

sorry if wrong, this is my d1 tunnel.

[VOTE: Amy] aubergine

townreads:

nutella, tutuu, protocultures

townleans:

tim, scirrus (guttest of gut), werewolfhunter, alison, long con

null/scumlean/flipfloppy:

nanook, radishes, benson, dyslexicon, coliniscool, kza, colonialbob

scumread:

amy



not giving deep reasons for any reads except the scumcase i wrote on amy for now. will start writing towncases sometime during the day, after more stuff has happened.

tempted to put benson in townleans, but... just a bit sketched by a few little things. similar thoughts with nanook/radishes. the rest of the people in that group don't seem to be playing to be read any townier than null regardless of actual alignment, so i feel like they're pretty understandable placements. also slightly sketched by alison, but i mildly mindmelded with the early tutuu sus (before i decided it was civ/civ) and thats enough to make me gth her town.

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:26 pm I agree more with the suspicion of Scirrus’ entrance than with the suspicion of Amy, at this point in time.

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:28 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:18 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:21 pm clarifying that the first post was a meme (and therefore invalid reason to sus) is a bit on the flatly defensive side; that sort of sus couldve been handled in a lot more playful manner (this point might be the weakest).

i mean, in my personal opinion this is a reach. i saw it as clarification for the sake of clarification, ive flatly clarified a bunch of stuff already this game i feel like (and reminder im town) altho maybe they werent flat and i just cant accurately recognize how i come off as but. mm. idk, like, ... nvm actually u do say it yourself that this point might be weakest

i like the person with the whale avatar. was it benson? i like alison's tr on him alot.

looks like im in the minority but i kind of dislike nutella? (in the sense of not townreading her obviously!). i think that shes hard to read, finding her as town in pyre mafia wasnt easy, a lot of ppl were scumreading her but i managed to do it. and in this game i feel like if she's town it's ... even harder to find her? and everyone townreading her is just making me paused. am i in the wrong here to perceive nutella this way, or am i not? that is the question

1/60

So much for doing more reading than posting, but...

I added at least some explanation to all me early feelies except Nutella, and that was just because I ran out of free post time and then spaced it.

Nutella is just a straight feelie of "forum management" that is different from when I played with her before on MU. This is a not ideal source for any kind of feelies, but I just can't help but have it. To me Nutella is juggling her position and the game, not her position, the game, AND wolfing. That is extremely soft, but if nothing else it is something I need to keep track of for my own awareness of bias. In no way do I expect to be followed on this, and in fact people who have played with her here are encouraged to tell me I'm wrong if you think I am.