The Syndicate

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:29 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:41 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:31 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:53 am @MacDougall

My defense. My heart has been set ablaze.

Spoiler: show

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:08 am
Anyway I like Wilgy, Seanzie, and Rondo so far.

Sabi and Porcsha have both used town-leaning language on Seanzie and I am unsure of it is earned in either case.

Porscha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:14 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:02 am

just wrong?

yes I think seanzie is wrong in thinking youre wolf

So 'wrong' tends to be a town member's thought process, as wolves aren't 'wrong' they are intentionally lying about things. Sabi employed similar language against Seanzie as well. This could be stylistic to them but I don't like it. Either way I think it makes Porscha/Mac unaligned because I thought the answer back to Mac was guileless in a way that if your scum buddy is following up on something it would have greatest clarification.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:20 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:18 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:08 am

True I have largely sworn it off tbh



Hiya. I see a little later you have a physical question mark over your head. I feel as if it is more productive to take that question mark, type some words directed at me, and then put it at the end of those words to see if it helps you tbh.

The in-joke for me is I am usually bad at catching aligned pairs early so if there is scum here it's probably just one of them lol.

Anyway I like Wilgy, Seanzie, and Rondo so far.

Sabi and Porcsha have both used town-leaning language on Seanzie and I am unsure of it is earned in either case.



So 'wrong' tends to be a town member's thought process, as wolves aren't 'wrong' they are intentionally lying about things. Sabi employed similar language against Seanzie as well. This could be stylistic to them but I don't like it. Either way I think it makes Porscha/Mac unaligned because I thought the answer back to Mac was guileless in a way that if your scum buddy is following up on something it would have greatest clarification.

Why do you like me?

Here you go

Seanzie (I don’t have a note on their meta, but they seem to genuinely not give a single fuck so that tends to be a town trait until told otherwise and multiple people have been using soft town language on them for no good reason so the equity of either one of them being wolf also adds to Seanzie’s own town equity.)

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:00 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:59 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:58 am Hm, wait.

Mac played with me in Anni where I was more shit posting like I am now and less my usual 'rawr I am a dinosaur' method.

Mac I am concerned.

Hi concerned I'm obvious town

lmao jesus christ it's literally copy/paste what a wolf said to me day 1 last time I was town lol x)

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:01 am ALTHOUGH that Porscha read shows promise so maybe you just are being a big incorrect bully on reading me.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:11 am That coincidence aside [VOTE: Porscha] aubergine

I saw this from a different angle than Mac (re: Seanzie) but I like this to clear both if they are in fact wolf.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:12 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:11 am im gonna be a dumbass and townread Rondo once again

I was promised disruptive and this isn't it, good idea tbh

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:18 am @RondoDimBuckle in one post Porscha says

a) Seanzie is WRONG about Mac (only town can be wrong though, so the language doesn't match the suspicion being presented)
b) That's a really confident take on Mac's alignment

Summed up why I am poking them.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:23 am

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:20 am @Achromatic you have issues with people. Using the term wrong when people state incorrect reads. How often do people not use the term wrong esp day one?

It can depend, which is why I noted it CAN be a stylistic choice and if they have receipts that it just how they talk then it is just how they talk, fair enough. However I feel better about people using that language if they are presenting at least a town lean on someone because it presents a consistent world view. Because if you town read someone, sure, they can be wrong in your mind.

Or, if you are presenting a wolf read and are saying they are wrong on the facts, then that's also reasonable.

Porscha discussing that Seanzie is WRONG on Mac needs further investigation because it doesn't immediately fit any of those criteria and worse than just phrasing is the super over confident read on Mac which also needs an explanation.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:27 am

Porscha wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:28 pm

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:22 pm

@Porscha what about the other players

I don't have a strong enough opinion on anybody else to place them above null. I don't have experience with lucy or achro or tommy, etc. nothing they've said or done strikes me as town or scum

dizzy seemed normal I guess? I have a hard time reading them

I think rondo sounds townie atm so he can go into TL pile

As of this post Porscha has no one above null, but then a few posts of hers later (six hours later) after giving no updates on reads Mac is such a strong read that Seanzie is just flat wrong?

Doesn't vibe check tbh

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:50 am Rondo just go back to sheeping me on Porscha, be a good Rondo x)

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:17 am Anyway Ender you come off as sincere and earnest in your wish to understand my wacky mind, have a town lean.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:15 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:14 am I am now prepared to lazy TR axe

NANOOK is howling

For the record if nook is scum I will blame the shortened day one for messing with my mojo lol

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:19 am

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:18 am Actually I probably shouldn't vote someone I haven't played with rn

[VOTE: Porscha] aubergine

Because lack of impression or something

Dizzy redemption arc accepted. V.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:25 am Seanzie
RondoDimBuckle
EnderWiggin
Dyslexicon
DrWilgy
MacDougall
-
Vivax
lucy
Sabiplz
Tommy
Stupid Sexy Flanders
-
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
NotAnAxehole
Porscha

3 wolves in bottom 5 isn't bad x( I want to believe

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:41 am

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:31 am Achro have you ever played with Nook before

Not that I recall, although I know they are supposed to be very good.

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:33 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:29 am

I literally quoted posts by them recently saying I did not like them lol x) Read my ISO

The nanook post you quoted is a joke much like the read and the axe quote you are attributing the wrong vote. He wants to vote Porcha and Mac is voting Tommy, he wants Mac to vote Tommy and you are suspicious of him for voting Tommy and saying Mac should be voting Porcha

Oh, well if it is a joke fair enough then, he has plenty of time to remedy it. As for the other thing, no. He called the Porscha post really bad and poked Mac for not voting it when he himself is not voting for it. Don't like it, not confused.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:46 am Well, I am voting Porscha first because I don't like their leap towards Mac. Depending on how that develops as the day goes on I can see Axe's back and forth here being really not good either way, and sure if NANOOK was just joking around maybe that isn't aligned at all and I'll have to have a think ;o

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:08 pm

Stupid Sexy Flanders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:05 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:50 pm Well let's see off the top of my head...

Mac hasn't found me as town yet but I think he found me when I was eating breakfast.

Sean misunderstood my words on reading him in the most obvious town way possible

Rondo does not like my attempts to pocket him which I think I'd reasonable he couldn't know I like being town double voter

Sabi appears to be confused why I am not doing mechanics like I did the last game we are in which is probably upon reflection a town take from them although one that lacks an understanding of my nuance.

Not sure if anyone else threw shade, phone posting now.

In general I have been called awkward a few times but I feel very comfy now. New sites/functions on s technical level take me a little bit to settle into but this green setting is soothing and watched my boy Rengoku in demon slayer set his heart ablaze again so now I am good to go.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:52 pm Oh yeah ender had some problem with me that came off as earnest solving.

Thanks. Are you town reading all these players?

Yeah, although sabi is pretty soft and Mac can go side ways pretty quick depending on if Porscha is a hit or not. Others feel more solid.

Literally just town reading every single person who has shaded me day one like a fucking boss.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:10 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:08 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:01 pm

I see. Thank you.

I look forward to the aggression when Tommy comes back. Unlike a couple of people I don't think this amount of time being gone is particularly noteworthy and they didn't strike me as the type to be frozen and crying in wolf chat.

Have you seen them wolf, Lucy?

yes, but they aren’t playing their wolf or town game

Perfect. Then we can deduce by Lucy's testimony that Tommy is not in their wolf meta and their absence is firmly NAI and can we dispell the notion he is frozen. So lets be patient with him, it costs us little and undue pressure causes town members to crack as well.

This is seen as a defense of Tommy. Importantly in the middle of a sea of blood that I am raining down on porscha as you can see. I am viciously bussing porscha here if I am wolf and yet I decide to shield Tommy with this specific defense? To say let's be patient because it costs us little? Was I wrong?

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:12 pm

Stupid Sexy Flanders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:10 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:08 pm


Yeah, although sabi is pretty soft and Mac can go side ways pretty quick depending on if Porscha is a hit or not. Others feel more solid.

Can you explain the Porscha - Mac connection to me?

Mac had a problem with the same post I did so if porscha is a wolf that looks like a really good hit. If not, then I can see a lot of scenarios where a wolf Mac would see a town member post that and leap at a chance to make them look bad. It's not wolfy in isolation but it's the strongest clearing factor for Mac atm.

Considering porscha town worlds in case I might be wrong. The very definition of not TMI.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:55 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:53 pm

Stupid Sexy Flanders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:18 pm TRing Rondo, Sean and Mac. Rondo sounds identical to the last two games I've played here. I scum read him both games and he ended up flipped town (reanimation excluded).
Sean more toothy and hostile than last game where he was wolf. He seemed light and kinda floated through the thread as wolf, very different tone this game.
Mac could be anything I suppose, but he's putting in the work and it's not feeling forced to this point. His reaction to me piling on was classic too, enjoyable really. His read on me is wrong, but that's the way she goes.

Can't remember if it was Vivax or Wiggin who tried to tie me to Axehole because I made sure joke about us being Canadian.. They both entered at basically the same time so you'll have to forgive my processing here ( in catchup mode from work).

Lead wagons seem good. Porscha trying to excuse herself from putting in any effort because neither Sean or I had was sketch, and I pointed that out earlier. I'll be the first to say I totally suck at this game, so pinning any sort of excuse as to why she's not playing on me, is pretty weak.

Tommy really seems like LHF, but at the same time their posting yesterday was just not townie at all and the fact the they haven't re-entered does come across frozen.

Can't put my finger on why, gut read I guess, but Dyslexicon pinged yesterday. Lucy still feels scummy as well. Upon reflection she spent her time trying to "look towny" and I felt some post come across as self conscious.

What a nice wolfy post.
Has token effort all written over it, and makes me really uncomfortable about voting Porscha considering the bolded.
No real focus, just trying to cover every base.

[VOTE: Stupid Sexy Flanders] aubergine

Bold came off as towny to me tbh

Once again breaking up town on town crime.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:58 pm

Tommy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:53 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:48 pm

much more active lmao, and you much more active normally

Do you wanna know why I’ve been less active? Because I actually know the people on discord mafia. We have been playing for 2 years and have a history long before that. Also its so much fucking easier on discord than this shit, no offense. I have to login each time and scroll down, and refresh for new messages each time. And read these obnoxiously long threads. My apologies for not being as active as I should. With little more than wifom d1 I’m not particularly interested.

Should just sheep me day one. No strings attached.

Asking my wolf buddy to sheep me on murdering our other wolf buddy.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:26 pm Anyway I don't think someone who is new to FM has much deep wolf potential in this player list so I am vetoing Tommy pressure for the day. My suggestion would just to be my mason buddy for the day tbh tbh and vote with me if you don't like day 1 with new people. I will protect you for one day. This is a pocket attempt because I have zero fear of you.

Meanwhile speaking of frozen and crying in wolf chat it should be time for porscha to say hi again soon.

Defending Tommy and asking him to be my mason buddy day 1... attacking porscha in the same post. This made clear exactly what I was doing: I had zero fear of Tommy and I was right not to have it.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:07 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:04 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:53 pm

Ic ic if you drop wilgy and add axe we have a pretty similar world view. Thoughts on axe's explanation of not voting porscha? Felt pretty bad. What's your issue with wilgy?

Axes filter is certainly cryptic. Don't really get the movie references and don't even think they made that many different movies of Pirates OTC. But maybe I'll get it another time.
He's consistent in sheeping MacDougall, explains some Mac-Sean history.
Tone overall reads good to me.

I think I'd townlean this at least for D1 because he semi-freely gave information.
I might join him on that and go matt here.

So, just so I understand correctly.

You think it is a better chance of a hit to vote the first time FM player who is, by account of someone who knows them, outside of both their normal town AND wolf metas and has openly displayed issues with the FM format day one versus someone who by all accounts went from having a null read on Mac to having a big town read on them without showing any of their work at all.

Why do you think Tommy has even above a random chance of being a wolf atm?

I defended Tommy hard here. I also buried porscha in the same post.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:36 pm I haven't really liked the thread state around Tommy tbh. It's like, people were accusing him of being frozen for being gone like seven hours lol. It felt very iffy and there really seems to be this group think. Like, it's pretty much always wolf siding to an incredible degree.

If tommy is town: well obviously this is bad
if tommy is wolf: then when they 'settle in' to FM they should still have a lot of tells over time, right? Like, no matter how intelligent you are or gifted at discord mafia if you roll wolf your first time it is going to show. He wants some data to feed him, I don't mind holding off and seeing what he can produce. His content so far has been 'not good' but I think people leaping to make it alignment dependent feel craven tbh

My defense of not going after Tommy day one is perfectly rational and combined with how hard I was going after porscha ot made me town siding for a very large portion of day one despite 'protecting the wolf'

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:47 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:45 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:43 pm

What's up, what's your solve?

Achro defending Tommy here irks me a bit

why lmao, objective he’s correct, subjectively i’m scared of them flying under the radar

I feel like even me, who is defending Tommy due to circumstances, is expecting more than just 'idk sorry guys' day 2. He will have a lot more to go on then and if he still can't produce much then... well FM isn't for him x(

I firmly establish my leash for Tommy is for pnly day 1 while spending all my time trying to dunk porscha. If I had gotten my way then porscha goes over day one and Tommy goes day 2. This is clear through dozens of posts.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:56 pm

Tommy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:55 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:47 pm

I feel like even me, who is defending Tommy due to circumstances, is expecting more than just 'idk sorry guys' day 2. He will have a lot more to go on then and if he still can't produce much then... well FM isn't for him x(

I am literally crying rn at my desk. What more do i need to do

Uh, actually nothing but if you want to sheep my vote that'd be cool. Like I'll defend you either way even if you just go 'day ones aren't for me.' I did that to someone on fol my last town game and we won handedly.

I am so uninformed trying to get Tommy to murder porscha day 1 it almost hurts.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:59 pm

Tommy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:56 pm

Tommy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:55 pm

I am literally crying rn at my desk. What more do i need to do

I’m sorry if I don’t over analyze meaningless discussions. When something has happened, or someone has said something wrong I’ve spoken up

I actually couldn't care less what you do today. Although, if you are town you know that, don't you think its a little suspect people keep coming for your head? ;o

He is trying to spew me clear here why don't you let him lol. I think lucy even called this out as a lie so he lied to try to get me to back off which is cite in hindsight.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:04 pm The only person on the Tommy wagon I really like is indeed Mac and that's because by all rights Mac should really be switching to Porscha whenever he feels like it given what we both pointed to.

'I don't like anyone on tommy, but I like Mac because he is going to be voting porscha.'

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:05 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:04 pm The only person on the Tommy wagon I really like is indeed Mac and that's because by all rights Mac should really be switching to Porscha whenever he feels like it given what we both pointed to.

Like it'd be one thing if no one had done anything remotely bad today but Porscha's magical Mac read really needs to at least be explained in some way x). Or if there was one wolf left. Like going 'man should we no lynch today' is so bonkers that I just have to assume vivax is town on an really epic line of thought here.

Like if Tommy is wolf, think of who makes sense for buddies or independently go for someone else lol x)

Why did I defend Tommy? I was tunneling the other scum. My bad?

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:20 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:18 pm I think the vote on Sean is a bit meh from Kuti. Not really that effective but cares about not getting tommy launched. Achro on the other hand votes Porscha, has a more plausible agenda here by being on a feasible counterwagon, but I don't trust them to be town as I did earlier (to preserve some sanity probably).

I mean sure, let's skip tommy for freepass reasons if you insist, but then we should probably discuss if one-two mafias aren't sitting on the Porscha wagon atm.

And if not, what that makes Rondo and Sabi.

It's only me and Dizzy on Porscha right now.

Are you trying to tell me in some way that being on Porscha is a bad idea iyo?

Porscha porscha porscha

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:43 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:41 pm

Do I need to explain the difference between a first time FM player and yourself?

Standards, wolf ranges, etc etc.

In this context, yeah I think you do

Oh, sure.

So you are a well established player who if I put the screws to you in some form or fashion will have a relatively known range of reactions for everyone to judge you on and to attempt to divine your alignment. If you are slacking off and suddenly under a microscope that's probably going to yield information that can be read by people.

Tommy, on the other hand, is an unknown quantity and to my eye hasn't really done anything noteworthy one way or another. This is not ideal, however with their stated dislike of FM so far as well as their noted inexperience it doesn't make them very formidable wolves down the line in the 'people are right he is wolf' even if I think it is for dubious reasons. likewise, because he is inexperienced, there is a large chance he becomes polarized when he does get his teeth into the game and we can proceed more appropriately.

Trying to say Tommy is the best lynch today is like ordering your steak well done. Technically it is a thing you can do, but why?

Defense of Tommy is bad, but that's because I caught the other wolf.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:08 pm I think people often underestimate what others learn about them when they are forced to do things.

I don't think putting Tommy under the microscope would be great at determining things, no. My history of "new to FM" players is not great when put into a blender day one and told to dodge. The reason I think they become more clear later on is they have been given what the have asked for in more than just analysis of WIFOM as Tommy said. I don't agree with this, but there are a lot of players who just suck day one and I feel like we have more than Tommy just taking up space. For example, a lot less discussed but voting Tommy is Axe whose meta I don't know but who has done the same amount except with a worse explanation for not voting Porscha than anything Tommy has done. Yet Axe is fine, and Tommy is in PoE. It's... peculiar to me.

If FM is not for Tommy there are mechanics in place to deal with that tbh.

Also Porscha being granted more time is all well and good if she can explain a very clear contradiction of thought. It's just one post that I found very suspect after all, but that does need to be addressed ASAP before it can be moved on from whereas Tommy I don't think has done anything overtly suspicious outside of being meh.

'I can go to Tommy but porscha needs to explain herself'

Perfectly Summed up why I was against Tommy day 1. I was for porscha

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:11 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:09 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:08 pm


Yeah, although sabi is pretty soft and Mac can go side ways pretty quick depending on if Porscha is a hit or not. Others feel more solid.

explain how porscha's alignment indicates mine in any logical/reasonable way or die for this

Because I don't trust you as far as I can throw you but pointing out when scum TMI's you is usually pretty good for your town equity

Hi mac

Then Mac and I get into a fight about possible wolf Mac in town porscha worlds which makes no sense for me to do to the town leader if I know porscha will flip w lol

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:26 pm Seanzie couldn't be more town if he was my mason buddy at this point tbh

Me defending town from mac to minimize v on v crime.

Dizzy then points out to me that I have gone 12 yours misreading porscha slightly and I go hrm. Me going 12 hours misreading her as a scum buddy would in fact be quite a feat.

Then Mac said I had an omgus problem and I went adventuring for a bit. Cough. Let's not discuss that.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:48 pm Apology accepted.

As a aside I had such a toxic game a few weeks ago over at fol I started to write a guide on toxicity/AtE and how it is anti town. I haven't finished it yet but here's what I have so far.

Hello, my name is Chris and today I am going to discuss with you toxicity (and many brands of aggressive Appeal to Emotion, along with generalized ‘Rudeness’) and why it is singularly anti-town in all instances and is largely produced as a product of either out of game reasons that should be addressed outside of the framework of a competitive game of mental acuity or is a sign of a skill issue.

First, as town, you always want to do your best to not be executed during the day and if at all possible you want to avoid executing a member of town as well. In most normal game setups you are the ‘uninformed majority’ to counter the mafia’s ‘informed minority’, so unfortunately you have to do some sort of solving in order to puzzle out who is your ally and who is not. Power roles can usually help with this in many setups, but even then using them correctly is key to puzzling out what is going on.

The good news is you have a key detail on your side. The truth of your role card. So does everyone else who is town. You just have to find out which person has it. This sounds simple enough, but we are all experienced enough to know it is much more complicated than that.

Now in any given post there are two extremes you can go to. Either Toxicity/AtE, or analytical.

Now Analytical isn’t always a huge post, and sometimes it is as simple as a ping that something felt off about the post. It’s you trying to use reason to understand another player.

Toxicity/Rudeness/AtE, on the other hand, is using more of an emotional range of things to either defend yourself from attack or to attack another player.

I have seen many reasons why people do this

Frustration, trying to get a read on someone, desperation, putting someone on tilt to see if they give anything away, so forth. Here is an honest take from an experienced player who has struggled with anger issues for much of his life: This is either a signal that you need to take a break from mafia immediately to work on yourself, which is valid and not a sign of weakness I promise, or more commonly a skill issue.

I will leave the first one aside from now, as it is not my place to talk about such serious matters and anyone who does these things due to this reason isn’t why I am discussing it anyway. So let’s talk about the possible skill issues at play.

First, other people are not listening to you in what you believe to be a fair or credible manner. In this example you have just typed up a couple hundreds while quoting a post from someone where they have generalized your play against another player as tunneling and lay down a vote on you. In your post, you correctly point out that you have been pushing to town read certain players as well as having a wolf read on one in particular and that this vote is factually incorrect.

They respond saying it isn’t enough, and their vote stands.

Now here you have your choice. What do you do? Will you go down a path that eventually leads to insults and anger, or will you examine things. Let’s discuss the player voting you in this scenario. You don’t know their alignment, or the player they defended from you either. You have a decision to make, eventually, on what this could mean for the game.

Let’s examine the three choices in front of you for why a player is doing something.

They are a Wolf. From there we can get into a million different reasons for why they do with they do, but that’s the important point.
They are Town and believe that voting you helps town win the game through some sort of analytical play. This can branch to many different things from believing you t be a Wolf to seeing how people react to judge what is going on in the game. This person is your ally and part of your strategy is to sort them correctly.
They are Town and they using the Toxicity/Rudeness/AtE range and it is clouding their judgment. You said something that annoyed them. Your tone rubbed them the wrong way. You said you thought one of their earlier posts wasn’t correct and they took it personally. They are your ally, but it is generally harder to reason people out of opinions they didn’t reason themselves into.

Scenario 1 is the name of the game, Scenario 2 is a miscommunication between two allies, and scenario three has already demonstrated why toxicity is anti-town. You have a fellow town member who is making an error because they didn’t like something you did, not for alignment reasons, but for personal reasons.

So now you have two polarized choices, in my simple example. You can insult this person because you have grown frustrated, or you can ask for more details. Now this is a simplified version of events, often times frustration will build slower than this, but for ease of example let’s run with it.

The insult causes the wolf to react in whichever manner people act when insulted. The same for either town scenario as well. Why? Because being insulted is a feeling we deal with outside of the framework of this mafia game. Calling someone a ‘Bitch’, for example, is not unique to mafia. People can respond very naturally to that because it has absolutely nothing to do with the game. Same for ‘Stupid’ or an ‘Idiot.’ People will react to that genuinely, which is grants the Wolf in scenario 1 safe passage when people are reading them later in this interaction. Not many people have been lynched solely on the basis that they got upset for being insulted, after all.

Perhaps you can find the town member in scenario 2 and 3 this way, but how reliable can it really be if Wolves can have the same reaction to an insult? Let me put it another way. Generally there will be about two town for every anti-town role in the game minus your own town role, sometimes a few more. Under this scenario your chance of finding a member of town is ⅔, which is less day one than if you put the player list into a RNG sorter and asked it to spit out an alignment. Congratulations, you would have been better served solving via RNG than playing the game under these conditions.

Even things like repeatedly and deliberately calling someone bad will have this effect after enough repetition. Yes, it is fair to acknowledge skill ranges when discussing someone’s play, but usually a point doesn’t need to be repeated more than a few times in any thread about someone’s skill level. Why is this? Because players who are aware of the dangers of toxicity will want to shy away from your target due to knowing that adverse reactions, as noted above, are not an indication of alignment due to the reaction not originating in the mafia game, but rather years of learned behavior on how someone handles being insulted. Some stay calm, others get angry, while others just drift away. These things are not determined by one’s alignment, but by how the words make someone feel. No one enjoys being called bad or stupid or a bitch regardless of alignment. Or maybe they do take pleasure from it, but that is also largely NAI.

Now we move on to the second way to respond to being voted in a way you don’t like. Analytical. This can take on many forms. Questioning if your own posts were not communicated well, pondering a possible connection between the player you voted and the person who voted you, wondering if your case was as strong as you thought, etc. There are a number of angles you can take, but what they have in common is when you communicate back to this person you are engaging a part of their brain that is designed specifically with this game in mind. If you ask them about their defense of the other player, either they made it up as wolf and have to make up more things or they are town who had a legitimate reason or they just hate you.

The third scenario is already soaked in toxicity, trying to alleviate it could only de-escalate the situation rather than intensify it.

The first scenario may lead to a crack in their argument initially or after time. Even if it doesn’t yield immediate results, you have now at least gained a point of entry to having a conversation with someone who is faking things as a Wolf. They will have to successfully defend their point of view from reason and facts and it has now become a contest of abilities and skill rather than outside factors.

Kind of a cool if rough thesis imo.

Anyway a few things to note here.

1) I feel I have broadly speaking done a decent job of touching on almost every slot in this game in some way, and done my best to give nuanced thoughts when available. I think wolf reading me is fine because, who cares its a game it happens, but to accuse me of a 'tunnel' on any one person doesn't align with my day.

2) I think fundamentally we all can agree that the thought of "these two people are town reading me, they are wolves or town can be trusted" is truly, respectfully, lacking the obvious lean of 'town members can be wrong' and I don't think pointing this out is in any way detrimental to town.

3) I think having a polarized view of a slot depending on someone's flip is pretty cool and useful. For example if Porscha flips wolf then we'll probably be in pretty good shape all around. However I think examining the world of 'what if this isn't right' provides the chance to have some foresight into possible worlds and do some exploration and have everyone contribute.

4) Generally speaking the activity level and contributions are problematic for good game solving day one. I am trying to understand people and have felt good about most people actively posting, so it is in my solving nature to kick tires and clear up any potential misunderstandings day one.

Finally, I will only mention this once, I do not like being cursed at. It is needless and it upsets me for reasons that if you wish to know about you may inquire about post game privately. I can endure much, but I should not have to in a game I play solely for my entertainment and fun. I won't bring this up again nor do I wish for this to be discussed any further.

Beyond that, my questioning of Mac stands.

Point 3 especially is super unaligned by me.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:33 pm So I have a few issues currently. I feel as if the thread as a whole has a lot of focus on Tommy and none on axe which I find interesting given the state of both of their isos. If everyone was in the mood to chop someone who hasn't contributed much and each had several votes this would be one thing but the fact one has gotten so much focus over the other makes me feel as if it has scum motivation behind it somewhere. Sure I would love if everyone contributed day one, but what is most important is trying to not cede mislynches to scum.

Secondly in regards to Mac two things are making me think a lot. The first is saying I have an OMGUS problem while we were just talking about a post where I largely town read everyone who has voiced shade on me this game with the now only exception being Mac. It makes me wonder if them coming in saying I was scum was part of a plan if they are scum. If you come in saying I am scum then really if at any point I start to become wary of you all you need to do is go 'omgus' and it puts me at a disadvantage. I am having trouble seeing town Mac actually thinking I have omgus problems given 1) my player history and 2) my reads this game writ large. It feels very off to me.

Secondly their handling of seanzie is needlessly aggressive. I feel like they were trying to isolate them by saying no one else suspected Mac and that they just needed to stop. Seanzie isn't rven voting for max though so this comes off as utterly needless and a waste of thread space that could be better spent solving. It's at minimum a member of town being anti town and should honestly be rectified if Mac is indeed town.

I spent many words tinfoiling Mac in v porscha worlds where I have said constantly he is cleared if porscha wolf.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:36 pm

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:35 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:17 pm

If this is actually true then why isn't Tommy simply in their regular meta?

I change up my meta often, this means nothing to me. All that matters is the game right now. He is anti-town at best I am not lending my vote there in the hopes he comes out swinging but that doesnt mean I Will shield him, especially when Lucy wont

Changing up their wolf meta to 'won't participate and become favored to die d1' is a very funny choice for a first time fm player lol

It wasn't that funny in hindsight.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:44 am Ah I see. My mistake then.

[VOTE: porscha] aubergine

My post right after I am told that Mac is very polarized. Right back to porscha.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:56 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:54 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:52 am My only kink is solving tbh.

So Mac do you think Tommy is a good hit chance?

I really have no idea why anyone would think the opposite. Tommy has simply made no attempt to solve the game. They are a must resolve eventually anyway.

Was really hoping with how much lucy talked them up it would make sense to give them a little rope to see if after a lynch/nk they stepped it up but apparently I am in a minority here.

Making it clear again I only wanted to give Tommy a singular day while murdering porscha all day.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:00 am For me it depends on how others perform the rest of the day. There are a few people I want to hear from but I mean I have taken part in much worse lynches day one then perfectly null people so there are worse fates.

I wanted to hear from porscha but I was accepting of Tommy near eod1

Achromatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:04 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:01 am I don't actually consider him null. I think his play has been specifically wolfy. Like someone who randed mafia and was like "I have no idea what I am doing". Vs. a town who would be asking us things.

I can see this. For me that instinct is countered by people usually trying as mafia for their team mates who are relying on them. It gives me a bad feeling thinking over the state of the thread in regards to the slot but it's not like it is fun trying to pitch for someone who isn't trying.

Earnest dialogue between me and mac

That was the last post I got.

I am sorry that I got mixed up and made a mistake on porscha day 2. But even by the eod2 I was fine with her lynch again. I know my iso is a lot, but I feel my defense of Tommy is MASSIVELY overshadowed by why I was not wanting Tommy gone: I wanted porscha gone instead. My world view was constantly shaped by this and it shows. Please town read me ty.

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME thoughts?

Will read it later

Read about half of it and it seems to be a lot of "I pushed pirscha d1"

Which yeah ok fair you sure did

You also ended up on their competing wagon d2, so...shrugs

I'm primarily reading you off accuracy, I think you're likely capable of making high wim (ugh), pretty, "good solvy energy" posts with some depth to them regardless of your alignment, and you purport to be a high accuracy player, so I'm reading you much more off that. I am allowing for the possibility you're town struggling in a new place, and to a lesser extent for the possibility im wrong on ender, but yeah, your record is not great and that you continue to come to the same conclusions anyways is...somewhat alarming as well.

So yeah, self defense plus "i voted pkrscha d1!" doesn't do much for me given when we had an actual eod you ended up off them, and you're still pushing me, so. If you're town its difficult for me to get there on you atp

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:53 am @MacDougall

My defense. My heart has been set ablaze.

Spoiler: show

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:08 am
Anyway I like Wilgy, Seanzie, and Rondo so far.

Sabi and Porcsha have both used town-leaning language on Seanzie and I am unsure of it is earned in either case.

Porscha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:14 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:02 am

Porscha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:50 am

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:18 am

Porscha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:52 am yeah idk i'm put off by the mac seanzie thing and then rondo's vote with seanzie dazed me and I feel like something is not right here

do kinda feel like seanzie is tunneling a bit, but sean has been known to do some weird shit early and then expects a town to call him out for it and pass his test (if he's town)

if he doesn't try that technique then he's maf (which usually prompts him to have a much more agreeable play style that doesnt cause a wave too early)

so maybe this is town sean? but the push on mac and tunnel on kuti is weirding me out

why were you stunned? Its a vote on Mac I obviously dont believe more than tinfoil on a day that cant hammer against someone I town read? Straight forward

I found it unexpected

and I think I found sean's pushes on kuti and mac weird because, respectively, one is an unavoidable tunnel and the other is just wrong

just wrong?

yes I think seanzie is wrong in thinking youre wolf

So 'wrong' tends to be a town member's thought process, as wolves aren't 'wrong' they are intentionally lying about things. Sabi employed similar language against Seanzie as well. This could be stylistic to them but I don't like it. Either way I think it makes Porscha/Mac unaligned because I thought the answer back to Mac was guileless in a way that if your scum buddy is following up on something it would have greatest clarification.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:20 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:18 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:08 am

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:54 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:44 pm Imagine needing meta to town read Nixon smh

Imagine needing meta to town

True I have largely sworn it off tbh

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:57 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:58 pm I actually have lucy and sabi as possible w/w I thought their earlier interactions were odd so wilgy saying that makes me feel good about them. Small thing. Says more about wilgy than the w/w thing.

As for lucy no idea her wolf range but she isn't quite clicking right for me. Ping. Quals taught me to pursue pings properly tbh.

Wtf is this w/w read.

Hiya. I see a little later you have a physical question mark over your head. I feel as if it is more productive to take that question mark, type some words directed at me, and then put it at the end of those words to see if it helps you tbh.

The in-joke for me is I am usually bad at catching aligned pairs early so if there is scum here it's probably just one of them lol.

Anyway I like Wilgy, Seanzie, and Rondo so far.

Sabi and Porcsha have both used town-leaning language on Seanzie and I am unsure of it is earned in either case.

Porscha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:14 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:02 am

Porscha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:50 am

I found it unexpected

and I think I found sean's pushes on kuti and mac weird because, respectively, one is an unavoidable tunnel and the other is just wrong

just wrong?

yes I think seanzie is wrong in thinking youre wolf

So 'wrong' tends to be a town member's thought process, as wolves aren't 'wrong' they are intentionally lying about things. Sabi employed similar language against Seanzie as well. This could be stylistic to them but I don't like it. Either way I think it makes Porscha/Mac unaligned because I thought the answer back to Mac was guileless in a way that if your scum buddy is following up on something it would have greatest clarification.

Why do you like me?

Here you go

Seanzie (I don’t have a note on their meta, but they seem to genuinely not give a single fuck so that tends to be a town trait until told otherwise and multiple people have been using soft town language on them for no good reason so the equity of either one of them being wolf also adds to Seanzie’s own town equity.)

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:00 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:59 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:58 am Hm, wait.

Mac played with me in Anni where I was more shit posting like I am now and less my usual 'rawr I am a dinosaur' method.

Mac I am concerned.

Hi concerned I'm obvious town

lmao jesus christ it's literally copy/paste what a wolf said to me day 1 last time I was town lol x)

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:01 am ALTHOUGH that Porscha read shows promise so maybe you just are being a big incorrect bully on reading me.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:11 am That coincidence aside [VOTE: Porscha] aubergine

I saw this from a different angle than Mac (re: Seanzie) but I like this to clear both if they are in fact wolf.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:12 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:11 am im gonna be a dumbass and townread Rondo once again

I was promised disruptive and this isn't it, good idea tbh

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:18 am @RondoDimBuckle in one post Porscha says

a) Seanzie is WRONG about Mac (only town can be wrong though, so the language doesn't match the suspicion being presented)
b) That's a really confident take on Mac's alignment

Summed up why I am poking them.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:23 am

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:20 am @Achromatic you have issues with people. Using the term wrong when people state incorrect reads. How often do people not use the term wrong esp day one?

It can depend, which is why I noted it CAN be a stylistic choice and if they have receipts that it just how they talk then it is just how they talk, fair enough. However I feel better about people using that language if they are presenting at least a town lean on someone because it presents a consistent world view. Because if you town read someone, sure, they can be wrong in your mind.

Or, if you are presenting a wolf read and are saying they are wrong on the facts, then that's also reasonable.

Porscha discussing that Seanzie is WRONG on Mac needs further investigation because it doesn't immediately fit any of those criteria and worse than just phrasing is the super over confident read on Mac which also needs an explanation.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:27 am

Porscha wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:28 pm

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:22 pm

Porscha wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:19 pm yeah I guess I TL mac and wilgy right now
kuti seems on par from the MU game I played with her
I'm not a big day 1 player, I find it's really only useful later in the game to retrospectively see how people interacted

@Porscha what about the other players

I don't have a strong enough opinion on anybody else to place them above null. I don't have experience with lucy or achro or tommy, etc. nothing they've said or done strikes me as town or scum

dizzy seemed normal I guess? I have a hard time reading them

I think rondo sounds townie atm so he can go into TL pile

As of this post Porscha has no one above null, but then a few posts of hers later (six hours later) after giving no updates on reads Mac is such a strong read that Seanzie is just flat wrong?

Doesn't vibe check tbh

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:50 am Rondo just go back to sheeping me on Porscha, be a good Rondo x)

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:17 am Anyway Ender you come off as sincere and earnest in your wish to understand my wacky mind, have a town lean.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:15 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:14 am I am now prepared to lazy TR axe

NANOOK is howling

For the record if nook is scum I will blame the shortened day one for messing with my mojo lol

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:19 am

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:18 am Actually I probably shouldn't vote someone I haven't played with rn

[VOTE: Porscha] aubergine

Because lack of impression or something

Dizzy redemption arc accepted. V.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:25 am Seanzie
RondoDimBuckle
EnderWiggin
Dyslexicon
DrWilgy
MacDougall
-
Vivax
lucy
Sabiplz
Tommy
Stupid Sexy Flanders
-
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
NotAnAxehole
Porscha

3 wolves in bottom 5 isn't bad x( I want to believe

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:41 am

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:31 am Achro have you ever played with Nook before

Not that I recall, although I know they are supposed to be very good.

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:33 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:29 am

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:28 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:25 am Seanzie
RondoDimBuckle
EnderWiggin
Dyslexicon
DrWilgy
MacDougall
-
Vivax
lucy
Sabiplz
Tommy
Stupid Sexy Flanders
-
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
NotAnAxehole
Porscha

Ok this has to be a joke, other than being low posters you dont know why are Nanook are Axe so low?

I literally quoted posts by them recently saying I did not like them lol x) Read my ISO

The nanook post you quoted is a joke much like the read and the axe quote you are attributing the wrong vote. He wants to vote Porcha and Mac is voting Tommy, he wants Mac to vote Tommy and you are suspicious of him for voting Tommy and saying Mac should be voting Porcha

Oh, well if it is a joke fair enough then, he has plenty of time to remedy it. As for the other thing, no. He called the Porscha post really bad and poked Mac for not voting it when he himself is not voting for it. Don't like it, not confused.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:46 am Well, I am voting Porscha first because I don't like their leap towards Mac. Depending on how that develops as the day goes on I can see Axe's back and forth here being really not good either way, and sure if NANOOK was just joking around maybe that isn't aligned at all and I'll have to have a think ;o

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:08 pm

Stupid Sexy Flanders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:05 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:50 pm Well let's see off the top of my head...

Mac hasn't found me as town yet but I think he found me when I was eating breakfast.

Sean misunderstood my words on reading him in the most obvious town way possible

Rondo does not like my attempts to pocket him which I think I'd reasonable he couldn't know I like being town double voter

Sabi appears to be confused why I am not doing mechanics like I did the last game we are in which is probably upon reflection a town take from them although one that lacks an understanding of my nuance.

Not sure if anyone else threw shade, phone posting now.

In general I have been called awkward a few times but I feel very comfy now. New sites/functions on s technical level take me a little bit to settle into but this green setting is soothing and watched my boy Rengoku in demon slayer set his heart ablaze again so now I am good to go.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:52 pm Oh yeah ender had some problem with me that came off as earnest solving.

Thanks. Are you town reading all these players?

Yeah, although sabi is pretty soft and Mac can go side ways pretty quick depending on if Porscha is a hit or not. Others feel more solid.

Literally just town reading every single person who has shaded me day one like a fucking boss.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:10 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:08 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:01 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:59 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:40 pm Putting any more pressure on Tommy given their content and status before getting a concrete summary from lucy of the type of player they are feels like wolfsiding tbh. Putting the manner aside of their actual alignment I feel as if this is a good chance for lucy to provide data for us on someone they know.

@lucy

they’re more aggressive than me, would push people D1 typically and send a lot of messages that are AI, this isn’t his play at all and i can’t protect him if he’s barely playing

I see. Thank you.

I look forward to the aggression when Tommy comes back. Unlike a couple of people I don't think this amount of time being gone is particularly noteworthy and they didn't strike me as the type to be frozen and crying in wolf chat.

Have you seen them wolf, Lucy?

yes, but they aren’t playing their wolf or town game

Perfect. Then we can deduce by Lucy's testimony that Tommy is not in their wolf meta and their absence is firmly NAI and can we dispell the notion he is frozen. So lets be patient with him, it costs us little and undue pressure causes town members to crack as well.

This is seen as a defense of Tommy. Importantly in the middle of a sea of blood that I am raining down on porscha as you can see. I am viciously bussing porscha here if I am wolf and yet I decide to shield Tommy with this specific defense? To say let's be patient because it costs us little? Was I wrong?

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:12 pm

Stupid Sexy Flanders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:10 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:08 pm

Stupid Sexy Flanders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:05 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:50 pm Well let's see off the top of my head...

Mac hasn't found me as town yet but I think he found me when I was eating breakfast.

Sean misunderstood my words on reading him in the most obvious town way possible

Rondo does not like my attempts to pocket him which I think I'd reasonable he couldn't know I like being town double voter

Sabi appears to be confused why I am not doing mechanics like I did the last game we are in which is probably upon reflection a town take from them although one that lacks an understanding of my nuance.

Not sure if anyone else threw shade, phone posting now.

In general I have been called awkward a few times but I feel very comfy now. New sites/functions on s technical level take me a little bit to settle into but this green setting is soothing and watched my boy Rengoku in demon slayer set his heart ablaze again so now I am good to go.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:52 pm Oh yeah ender had some problem with me that came off as earnest solving.

Thanks. Are you town reading all these players?

Yeah, although sabi is pretty soft and Mac can go side ways pretty quick depending on if Porscha is a hit or not. Others feel more solid.

Can you explain the Porscha - Mac connection to me?

Mac had a problem with the same post I did so if porscha is a wolf that looks like a really good hit. If not, then I can see a lot of scenarios where a wolf Mac would see a town member post that and leap at a chance to make them look bad. It's not wolfy in isolation but it's the strongest clearing factor for Mac atm.

Considering porscha town worlds in case I might be wrong. The very definition of not TMI.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:55 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:53 pm

Stupid Sexy Flanders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:18 pm TRing Rondo, Sean and Mac. Rondo sounds identical to the last two games I've played here. I scum read him both games and he ended up flipped town (reanimation excluded).
Sean more toothy and hostile than last game where he was wolf. He seemed light and kinda floated through the thread as wolf, very different tone this game.
Mac could be anything I suppose, but he's putting in the work and it's not feeling forced to this point. His reaction to me piling on was classic too, enjoyable really. His read on me is wrong, but that's the way she goes.

Can't remember if it was Vivax or Wiggin who tried to tie me to Axehole because I made sure joke about us being Canadian.. They both entered at basically the same time so you'll have to forgive my processing here ( in catchup mode from work).

Lead wagons seem good. Porscha trying to excuse herself from putting in any effort because neither Sean or I had was sketch, and I pointed that out earlier. I'll be the first to say I totally suck at this game, so pinning any sort of excuse as to why she's not playing on me, is pretty weak.

Tommy really seems like LHF, but at the same time their posting yesterday was just not townie at all and the fact the they haven't re-entered does come across frozen.

Can't put my finger on why, gut read I guess, but Dyslexicon pinged yesterday. Lucy still feels scummy as well. Upon reflection she spent her time trying to "look towny" and I felt some post come across as self conscious.

What a nice wolfy post.
Has token effort all written over it, and makes me really uncomfortable about voting Porscha considering the bolded.
No real focus, just trying to cover every base.

[VOTE: Stupid Sexy Flanders] aubergine

Bold came off as towny to me tbh

Once again breaking up town on town crime.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:58 pm

Tommy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:53 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:48 pm

Tommy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:46 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:45 pm

Stupid Sexy Flanders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:43 pm
If your home site is the only place they've played, there's bound to be a struggle to find their feet as either alignment, but I found the first games I played here, it was my homeboys pressuring me and essentially forcing my voice one way or another. A good townie who's familiar with a player from their homesite should be pushing that player to show, not coasting behind a wagon formed by players who don't know your homeboy.

I feel like you should be doing more than reserving judgement on someone you have history with because they don't fit either box you've built for them. Comes across as wolfy to me.

i’ve told them to talk more at least twice, since they are not then i can’t do much else

Omg. How active am I supposed to be. I talked yesterday and kept up with chat. I just finished reading what I missed

much more active lmao, and you much more active normally

Do you wanna know why I’ve been less active? Because I actually know the people on discord mafia. We have been playing for 2 years and have a history long before that. Also its so much fucking easier on discord than this shit, no offense. I have to login each time and scroll down, and refresh for new messages each time. And read these obnoxiously long threads. My apologies for not being as active as I should. With little more than wifom d1 I’m not particularly interested.

Should just sheep me day one. No strings attached.

Asking my wolf buddy to sheep me on murdering our other wolf buddy.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:26 pm Anyway I don't think someone who is new to FM has much deep wolf potential in this player list so I am vetoing Tommy pressure for the day. My suggestion would just to be my mason buddy for the day tbh tbh and vote with me if you don't like day 1 with new people. I will protect you for one day. This is a pocket attempt because I have zero fear of you.

Meanwhile speaking of frozen and crying in wolf chat it should be time for porscha to say hi again soon.

Defending Tommy and asking him to be my mason buddy day 1... attacking porscha in the same post. This made clear exactly what I was doing: I had zero fear of Tommy and I was right not to have it.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:07 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:04 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:53 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:49 pm Tommy*, not matt

Nooks ISO also rather wolfy.

So Nook, Lucy, Porscha, DrWilgy in current PoE

More undecided between Lucy and DrWilgy because of Tommy wagon

Ic ic if you drop wilgy and add axe we have a pretty similar world view. Thoughts on axe's explanation of not voting porscha? Felt pretty bad. What's your issue with wilgy?

Axes filter is certainly cryptic. Don't really get the movie references and don't even think they made that many different movies of Pirates OTC. But maybe I'll get it another time.
He's consistent in sheeping MacDougall, explains some Mac-Sean history.
Tone overall reads good to me.

I think I'd townlean this at least for D1 because he semi-freely gave information.
I might join him on that and go matt here.

So, just so I understand correctly.

You think it is a better chance of a hit to vote the first time FM player who is, by account of someone who knows them, outside of both their normal town AND wolf metas and has openly displayed issues with the FM format day one versus someone who by all accounts went from having a null read on Mac to having a big town read on them without showing any of their work at all.

Why do you think Tommy has even above a random chance of being a wolf atm?

I defended Tommy hard here. I also buried porscha in the same post.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:36 pm I haven't really liked the thread state around Tommy tbh. It's like, people were accusing him of being frozen for being gone like seven hours lol. It felt very iffy and there really seems to be this group think. Like, it's pretty much always wolf siding to an incredible degree.

If tommy is town: well obviously this is bad
if tommy is wolf: then when they 'settle in' to FM they should still have a lot of tells over time, right? Like, no matter how intelligent you are or gifted at discord mafia if you roll wolf your first time it is going to show. He wants some data to feed him, I don't mind holding off and seeing what he can produce. His content so far has been 'not good' but I think people leaping to make it alignment dependent feel craven tbh

My defense of not going after Tommy day one is perfectly rational and combined with how hard I was going after porscha ot made me town siding for a very large portion of day one despite 'protecting the wolf'

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:47 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:45 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:43 pm

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:37 pm Don't think I'm needed atm so peace be with you all xoxo

What's up, what's your solve?

Achro defending Tommy here irks me a bit

why lmao, objective he’s correct, subjectively i’m scared of them flying under the radar

I feel like even me, who is defending Tommy due to circumstances, is expecting more than just 'idk sorry guys' day 2. He will have a lot more to go on then and if he still can't produce much then... well FM isn't for him x(

I firmly establish my leash for Tommy is for pnly day 1 while spending all my time trying to dunk porscha. If I had gotten my way then porscha goes over day one and Tommy goes day 2. This is clear through dozens of posts.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:56 pm

Tommy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:55 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:47 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:45 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:43 pm

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:37 pm Don't think I'm needed atm so peace be with you all xoxo

What's up, what's your solve?

Achro defending Tommy here irks me a bit

why lmao, objective he’s correct, subjectively i’m scared of them flying under the radar

I feel like even me, who is defending Tommy due to circumstances, is expecting more than just 'idk sorry guys' day 2. He will have a lot more to go on then and if he still can't produce much then... well FM isn't for him x(

I am literally crying rn at my desk. What more do i need to do

Uh, actually nothing but if you want to sheep my vote that'd be cool. Like I'll defend you either way even if you just go 'day ones aren't for me.' I did that to someone on fol my last town game and we won handedly.

I am so uninformed trying to get Tommy to murder porscha day 1 it almost hurts.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:59 pm

Tommy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:56 pm

Tommy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:55 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:47 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:45 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:43 pm

What's up, what's your solve?

Achro defending Tommy here irks me a bit

why lmao, objective he’s correct, subjectively i’m scared of them flying under the radar

I feel like even me, who is defending Tommy due to circumstances, is expecting more than just 'idk sorry guys' day 2. He will have a lot more to go on then and if he still can't produce much then... well FM isn't for him x(

I am literally crying rn at my desk. What more do i need to do

I’m sorry if I don’t over analyze meaningless discussions. When something has happened, or someone has said something wrong I’ve spoken up

I actually couldn't care less what you do today. Although, if you are town you know that, don't you think its a little suspect people keep coming for your head? ;o

He is trying to spew me clear here why don't you let him lol. I think lucy even called this out as a lie so he lied to try to get me to back off which is cite in hindsight.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:04 pm The only person on the Tommy wagon I really like is indeed Mac and that's because by all rights Mac should really be switching to Porscha whenever he feels like it given what we both pointed to.

'I don't like anyone on tommy, but I like Mac because he is going to be voting porscha.'

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:05 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:04 pm The only person on the Tommy wagon I really like is indeed Mac and that's because by all rights Mac should really be switching to Porscha whenever he feels like it given what we both pointed to.

Like it'd be one thing if no one had done anything remotely bad today but Porscha's magical Mac read really needs to at least be explained in some way x). Or if there was one wolf left. Like going 'man should we no lynch today' is so bonkers that I just have to assume vivax is town on an really epic line of thought here.

Like if Tommy is wolf, think of who makes sense for buddies or independently go for someone else lol x)

Why did I defend Tommy? I was tunneling the other scum. My bad?

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:20 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:18 pm I think the vote on Sean is a bit meh from Kuti. Not really that effective but cares about not getting tommy launched. Achro on the other hand votes Porscha, has a more plausible agenda here by being on a feasible counterwagon, but I don't trust them to be town as I did earlier (to preserve some sanity probably).

I mean sure, let's skip tommy for freepass reasons if you insist, but then we should probably discuss if one-two mafias aren't sitting on the Porscha wagon atm.

And if not, what that makes Rondo and Sabi.

It's only me and Dizzy on Porscha right now.

Are you trying to tell me in some way that being on Porscha is a bad idea iyo?

Porscha porscha porscha

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:43 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:41 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:34 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:07 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:04 pm

Axes filter is certainly cryptic. Don't really get the movie references and don't even think they made that many different movies of Pirates OTC. But maybe I'll get it another time.
He's consistent in sheeping MacDougall, explains some Mac-Sean history.
Tone overall reads good to me.

I think I'd townlean this at least for D1 because he semi-freely gave information.
I might join him on that and go matt here.

So, just so I understand correctly.

You think it is a better chance of a hit to vote the first time FM player who is, by account of someone who knows them, outside of both their normal town AND wolf metas and has openly displayed issues with the FM format day one versus someone who by all accounts went from having a null read on Mac to having a big town read on them without showing any of their work at all.

Why do you think Tommy has even above a random chance of being a wolf atm?

Do you think Tommy is exact rand here?

Also, early game you mentioned how you'd just chop me if I had low WIM. Does this not apply to Tommy, who is arguably the one giving the least this game?

Do I need to explain the difference between a first time FM player and yourself?

Standards, wolf ranges, etc etc.

In this context, yeah I think you do

Oh, sure.

So you are a well established player who if I put the screws to you in some form or fashion will have a relatively known range of reactions for everyone to judge you on and to attempt to divine your alignment. If you are slacking off and suddenly under a microscope that's probably going to yield information that can be read by people.

Tommy, on the other hand, is an unknown quantity and to my eye hasn't really done anything noteworthy one way or another. This is not ideal, however with their stated dislike of FM so far as well as their noted inexperience it doesn't make them very formidable wolves down the line in the 'people are right he is wolf' even if I think it is for dubious reasons. likewise, because he is inexperienced, there is a large chance he becomes polarized when he does get his teeth into the game and we can proceed more appropriately.

Trying to say Tommy is the best lynch today is like ordering your steak well done. Technically it is a thing you can do, but why?

Defense of Tommy is bad, but that's because I caught the other wolf.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:08 pm I think people often underestimate what others learn about them when they are forced to do things.

I don't think putting Tommy under the microscope would be great at determining things, no. My history of "new to FM" players is not great when put into a blender day one and told to dodge. The reason I think they become more clear later on is they have been given what the have asked for in more than just analysis of WIFOM as Tommy said. I don't agree with this, but there are a lot of players who just suck day one and I feel like we have more than Tommy just taking up space. For example, a lot less discussed but voting Tommy is Axe whose meta I don't know but who has done the same amount except with a worse explanation for not voting Porscha than anything Tommy has done. Yet Axe is fine, and Tommy is in PoE. It's... peculiar to me.

If FM is not for Tommy there are mechanics in place to deal with that tbh.

Also Porscha being granted more time is all well and good if she can explain a very clear contradiction of thought. It's just one post that I found very suspect after all, but that does need to be addressed ASAP before it can be moved on from whereas Tommy I don't think has done anything overtly suspicious outside of being meh.

'I can go to Tommy but porscha needs to explain herself'

Perfectly Summed up why I was against Tommy day 1. I was for porscha

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:11 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:09 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:08 pm

Stupid Sexy Flanders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:05 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:50 pm Well let's see off the top of my head...

Mac hasn't found me as town yet but I think he found me when I was eating breakfast.

Sean misunderstood my words on reading him in the most obvious town way possible

Rondo does not like my attempts to pocket him which I think I'd reasonable he couldn't know I like being town double voter

Sabi appears to be confused why I am not doing mechanics like I did the last game we are in which is probably upon reflection a town take from them although one that lacks an understanding of my nuance.

Not sure if anyone else threw shade, phone posting now.

In general I have been called awkward a few times but I feel very comfy now. New sites/functions on s technical level take me a little bit to settle into but this green setting is soothing and watched my boy Rengoku in demon slayer set his heart ablaze again so now I am good to go.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:52 pm Oh yeah ender had some problem with me that came off as earnest solving.

Thanks. Are you town reading all these players?

Yeah, although sabi is pretty soft and Mac can go side ways pretty quick depending on if Porscha is a hit or not. Others feel more solid.

explain how porscha's alignment indicates mine in any logical/reasonable way or die for this

Because I don't trust you as far as I can throw you but pointing out when scum TMI's you is usually pretty good for your town equity

Hi mac

Then Mac and I get into a fight about possible wolf Mac in town porscha worlds which makes no sense for me to do to the town leader if I know porscha will flip w lol

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:26 pm Seanzie couldn't be more town if he was my mason buddy at this point tbh

Me defending town from mac to minimize v on v crime.

Dizzy then points out to me that I have gone 12 yours misreading porscha slightly and I go hrm. Me going 12 hours misreading her as a scum buddy would in fact be quite a feat.

Then Mac said I had an omgus problem and I went adventuring for a bit. Cough. Let's not discuss that.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:48 pm Apology accepted.

As a aside I had such a toxic game a few weeks ago over at fol I started to write a guide on toxicity/AtE and how it is anti town. I haven't finished it yet but here's what I have so far.

Hello, my name is Chris and today I am going to discuss with you toxicity (and many brands of aggressive Appeal to Emotion, along with generalized ‘Rudeness’) and why it is singularly anti-town in all instances and is largely produced as a product of either out of game reasons that should be addressed outside of the framework of a competitive game of mental acuity or is a sign of a skill issue.

First, as town, you always want to do your best to not be executed during the day and if at all possible you want to avoid executing a member of town as well. In most normal game setups you are the ‘uninformed majority’ to counter the mafia’s ‘informed minority’, so unfortunately you have to do some sort of solving in order to puzzle out who is your ally and who is not. Power roles can usually help with this in many setups, but even then using them correctly is key to puzzling out what is going on.

The good news is you have a key detail on your side. The truth of your role card. So does everyone else who is town. You just have to find out which person has it. This sounds simple enough, but we are all experienced enough to know it is much more complicated than that.

Now in any given post there are two extremes you can go to. Either Toxicity/AtE, or analytical.

Now Analytical isn’t always a huge post, and sometimes it is as simple as a ping that something felt off about the post. It’s you trying to use reason to understand another player.

Toxicity/Rudeness/AtE, on the other hand, is using more of an emotional range of things to either defend yourself from attack or to attack another player.

I have seen many reasons why people do this

Frustration, trying to get a read on someone, desperation, putting someone on tilt to see if they give anything away, so forth. Here is an honest take from an experienced player who has struggled with anger issues for much of his life: This is either a signal that you need to take a break from mafia immediately to work on yourself, which is valid and not a sign of weakness I promise, or more commonly a skill issue.

I will leave the first one aside from now, as it is not my place to talk about such serious matters and anyone who does these things due to this reason isn’t why I am discussing it anyway. So let’s talk about the possible skill issues at play.

First, other people are not listening to you in what you believe to be a fair or credible manner. In this example you have just typed up a couple hundreds while quoting a post from someone where they have generalized your play against another player as tunneling and lay down a vote on you. In your post, you correctly point out that you have been pushing to town read certain players as well as having a wolf read on one in particular and that this vote is factually incorrect.

They respond saying it isn’t enough, and their vote stands.

Now here you have your choice. What do you do? Will you go down a path that eventually leads to insults and anger, or will you examine things. Let’s discuss the player voting you in this scenario. You don’t know their alignment, or the player they defended from you either. You have a decision to make, eventually, on what this could mean for the game.

Let’s examine the three choices in front of you for why a player is doing something.

They are a Wolf. From there we can get into a million different reasons for why they do with they do, but that’s the important point.
They are Town and believe that voting you helps town win the game through some sort of analytical play. This can branch to many different things from believing you t be a Wolf to seeing how people react to judge what is going on in the game. This person is your ally and part of your strategy is to sort them correctly.
They are Town and they using the Toxicity/Rudeness/AtE range and it is clouding their judgment. You said something that annoyed them. Your tone rubbed them the wrong way. You said you thought one of their earlier posts wasn’t correct and they took it personally. They are your ally, but it is generally harder to reason people out of opinions they didn’t reason themselves into.

Scenario 1 is the name of the game, Scenario 2 is a miscommunication between two allies, and scenario three has already demonstrated why toxicity is anti-town. You have a fellow town member who is making an error because they didn’t like something you did, not for alignment reasons, but for personal reasons.

So now you have two polarized choices, in my simple example. You can insult this person because you have grown frustrated, or you can ask for more details. Now this is a simplified version of events, often times frustration will build slower than this, but for ease of example let’s run with it.

The insult causes the wolf to react in whichever manner people act when insulted. The same for either town scenario as well. Why? Because being insulted is a feeling we deal with outside of the framework of this mafia game. Calling someone a ‘Bitch’, for example, is not unique to mafia. People can respond very naturally to that because it has absolutely nothing to do with the game. Same for ‘Stupid’ or an ‘Idiot.’ People will react to that genuinely, which is grants the Wolf in scenario 1 safe passage when people are reading them later in this interaction. Not many people have been lynched solely on the basis that they got upset for being insulted, after all.

Perhaps you can find the town member in scenario 2 and 3 this way, but how reliable can it really be if Wolves can have the same reaction to an insult? Let me put it another way. Generally there will be about two town for every anti-town role in the game minus your own town role, sometimes a few more. Under this scenario your chance of finding a member of town is ⅔, which is less day one than if you put the player list into a RNG sorter and asked it to spit out an alignment. Congratulations, you would have been better served solving via RNG than playing the game under these conditions.

Even things like repeatedly and deliberately calling someone bad will have this effect after enough repetition. Yes, it is fair to acknowledge skill ranges when discussing someone’s play, but usually a point doesn’t need to be repeated more than a few times in any thread about someone’s skill level. Why is this? Because players who are aware of the dangers of toxicity will want to shy away from your target due to knowing that adverse reactions, as noted above, are not an indication of alignment due to the reaction not originating in the mafia game, but rather years of learned behavior on how someone handles being insulted. Some stay calm, others get angry, while others just drift away. These things are not determined by one’s alignment, but by how the words make someone feel. No one enjoys being called bad or stupid or a bitch regardless of alignment. Or maybe they do take pleasure from it, but that is also largely NAI.

Now we move on to the second way to respond to being voted in a way you don’t like. Analytical. This can take on many forms. Questioning if your own posts were not communicated well, pondering a possible connection between the player you voted and the person who voted you, wondering if your case was as strong as you thought, etc. There are a number of angles you can take, but what they have in common is when you communicate back to this person you are engaging a part of their brain that is designed specifically with this game in mind. If you ask them about their defense of the other player, either they made it up as wolf and have to make up more things or they are town who had a legitimate reason or they just hate you.

The third scenario is already soaked in toxicity, trying to alleviate it could only de-escalate the situation rather than intensify it.

The first scenario may lead to a crack in their argument initially or after time. Even if it doesn’t yield immediate results, you have now at least gained a point of entry to having a conversation with someone who is faking things as a Wolf. They will have to successfully defend their point of view from reason and facts and it has now become a contest of abilities and skill rather than outside factors.

Kind of a cool if rough thesis imo.

Anyway a few things to note here.

1) I feel I have broadly speaking done a decent job of touching on almost every slot in this game in some way, and done my best to give nuanced thoughts when available. I think wolf reading me is fine because, who cares its a game it happens, but to accuse me of a 'tunnel' on any one person doesn't align with my day.

2) I think fundamentally we all can agree that the thought of "these two people are town reading me, they are wolves or town can be trusted" is truly, respectfully, lacking the obvious lean of 'town members can be wrong' and I don't think pointing this out is in any way detrimental to town.

3) I think having a polarized view of a slot depending on someone's flip is pretty cool and useful. For example if Porscha flips wolf then we'll probably be in pretty good shape all around. However I think examining the world of 'what if this isn't right' provides the chance to have some foresight into possible worlds and do some exploration and have everyone contribute.

4) Generally speaking the activity level and contributions are problematic for good game solving day one. I am trying to understand people and have felt good about most people actively posting, so it is in my solving nature to kick tires and clear up any potential misunderstandings day one.

Finally, I will only mention this once, I do not like being cursed at. It is needless and it upsets me for reasons that if you wish to know about you may inquire about post game privately. I can endure much, but I should not have to in a game I play solely for my entertainment and fun. I won't bring this up again nor do I wish for this to be discussed any further.

Beyond that, my questioning of Mac stands.

Point 3 especially is super unaligned by me.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:33 pm So I have a few issues currently. I feel as if the thread as a whole has a lot of focus on Tommy and none on axe which I find interesting given the state of both of their isos. If everyone was in the mood to chop someone who hasn't contributed much and each had several votes this would be one thing but the fact one has gotten so much focus over the other makes me feel as if it has scum motivation behind it somewhere. Sure I would love if everyone contributed day one, but what is most important is trying to not cede mislynches to scum.

Secondly in regards to Mac two things are making me think a lot. The first is saying I have an OMGUS problem while we were just talking about a post where I largely town read everyone who has voiced shade on me this game with the now only exception being Mac. It makes me wonder if them coming in saying I was scum was part of a plan if they are scum. If you come in saying I am scum then really if at any point I start to become wary of you all you need to do is go 'omgus' and it puts me at a disadvantage. I am having trouble seeing town Mac actually thinking I have omgus problems given 1) my player history and 2) my reads this game writ large. It feels very off to me.

Secondly their handling of seanzie is needlessly aggressive. I feel like they were trying to isolate them by saying no one else suspected Mac and that they just needed to stop. Seanzie isn't rven voting for max though so this comes off as utterly needless and a waste of thread space that could be better spent solving. It's at minimum a member of town being anti town and should honestly be rectified if Mac is indeed town.

I spent many words tinfoiling Mac in v porscha worlds where I have said constantly he is cleared if porscha wolf.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:36 pm

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:35 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:17 pm

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:14 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:36 pm I haven't really liked the thread state around Tommy tbh. It's like, people were accusing him of being frozen for being gone like seven hours lol. It felt very iffy and there really seems to be this group think. Like, it's pretty much always wolf siding to an incredible degree.

If tommy is town: well obviously this is bad
if tommy is wolf: then when they 'settle in' to FM they should still have a lot of tells over time, right? Like, no matter how intelligent you are or gifted at discord mafia if you roll wolf your first time it is going to show. He wants some data to feed him, I don't mind holding off and seeing what he can produce. His content so far has been 'not good' but I think people leaping to make it alignment dependent feel craven tbh

I disagree, if you are good at one form of mafia, forum wolfing is just as easy as your regular form of wolfing. New people shouldnt get a pass because they are new if they have 2+ years experience

That said I am still catching up so maybe Tommy has redeemed themselves

If this is actually true then why isn't Tommy simply in their regular meta?

I change up my meta often, this means nothing to me. All that matters is the game right now. He is anti-town at best I am not lending my vote there in the hopes he comes out swinging but that doesnt mean I Will shield him, especially when Lucy wont

Changing up their wolf meta to 'won't participate and become favored to die d1' is a very funny choice for a first time fm player lol

It wasn't that funny in hindsight.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:44 am Ah I see. My mistake then.

[VOTE: porscha] aubergine

My post right after I am told that Mac is very polarized. Right back to porscha.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:56 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:54 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:52 am My only kink is solving tbh.

So Mac do you think Tommy is a good hit chance?

I really have no idea why anyone would think the opposite. Tommy has simply made no attempt to solve the game. They are a must resolve eventually anyway.

Was really hoping with how much lucy talked them up it would make sense to give them a little rope to see if after a lynch/nk they stepped it up but apparently I am in a minority here.

Making it clear again I only wanted to give Tommy a singular day while murdering porscha all day.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:00 am For me it depends on how others perform the rest of the day. There are a few people I want to hear from but I mean I have taken part in much worse lynches day one then perfectly null people so there are worse fates.

I wanted to hear from porscha but I was accepting of Tommy near eod1

Achromatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:04 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:01 am I don't actually consider him null. I think his play has been specifically wolfy. Like someone who randed mafia and was like "I have no idea what I am doing". Vs. a town who would be asking us things.

I can see this. For me that instinct is countered by people usually trying as mafia for their team mates who are relying on them. It gives me a bad feeling thinking over the state of the thread in regards to the slot but it's not like it is fun trying to pitch for someone who isn't trying.

Earnest dialogue between me and mac

That was the last post I got.

I am sorry that I got mixed up and made a mistake on porscha day 2. But even by the eod2 I was fine with her lynch again. I know my iso is a lot, but I feel my defense of Tommy is MASSIVELY overshadowed by why I was not wanting Tommy gone: I wanted porscha gone instead. My world view was constantly shaped by this and it shows. Please town read me ty.

Stupid Sexy Flanders wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:02 am Thanks for using a spoiler there.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:08 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:01 am The sick thing I feel like if we ever lynch wilgy first over nook it just gives possible scum nook more foothold to show how right they have been. I feel like it is always best to believe that shield 100% and wilgy is always v here even though it feels paradoxical. Like wilgy as w shouldn't be able to fool a v nook so either he is v because nook is right or he is v because nook is wolf.

Nook being fooled by Wilgy is meh and possible.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:01 am The sick thing I feel like if we ever lynch wilgy first over nook it just gives possible scum nook more foothold to show how right they have been. I feel like it is always best to believe that shield 100% and wilgy is always v here even though it feels paradoxical. Like wilgy as w shouldn't be able to fool a v nook so either he is v because nook is right or he is v because nook is wolf.

lucy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:00 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:50 am Yeah lucy has opened herself up to questions now due to a lack of anything even though I don't want to really believe it.

what's the point lol, one left, thus I have to sole read someone which has no method, but it's gained through live chat

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:06 am Hm hm hm. Let's talk nook victory path. 12 alive. Can't account for doc so I will just assume one of my town reads is doc.

Rip achro
11
Bye Mac
10
I point to Dizzy today because I am dumb and nook totes honors my legacy
9
Rip vivax
8
Nook continues to hard shield wilgy, finishes his poe at Flanders lynch
7
Rip rondo

Leaves

Ender
Lucy
Sabi
Nook
Wilgy
Seanzie

Lynch lucy. Kill ender. Nl. Kill seanzie.
Final 3 of nook vs wilgy vs sabi

Votes fit. Poe to open today fits.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:44 am Honestly I think Wilgy is just the way to win this game.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:35 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:36 pm

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:01 pm

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:11 am Rondo is still in wolfish meta enough I'd be okay with him going over. But I'd prefer Porscha or another of my POE first tbh

Does this clear me now?

This clears ender now.

Also friendly reminder that the "POE" also included Tommy.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:17 pm

Vivax wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:41 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:37 pm Did someone say it was time for a wolfy pop in

I have an exceedingly hard time seeing Nanook as town here. Wish I could claim to have had a correct on him before (tops once).
I give it higher odds that the Porscha wagon of Achro, Dizzy, me is pure (duh) compared to the matt wagon with Nanook initiating clutch position #3 for the case that Porscha is mafia.

I was on Tommy before porscha was a real wagon iirc

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:46 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:43 am I believe getting this reaction out of everyone is more valuable than having a double voter. All I am asking is that you consider that. You are right, I don't have experience here. I don't. That's valid and you are correct. What I do have is a vast wealth of experience deep wolfing. I have come back from down 11 v 1 before. I promise I am not trying to invalidate your read, I promise, but there is a value at times to having an outside perspective. You don't have to listen to me, I just see everyone else's games as less wolfy.

This isn't coming from a place of ego, just so you know... I've got a fair amount of experience myself lol. So it's not just predicated on meta, albeit Nanook is the player in this game I have played the most mafia with by a long way. I wouldn't say my read on him is reliable straight up because he's fooled me before, but killing Axe there needlessly exposes him and I'm the only person that'd even make the read he'd hypothetically be looking for.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:38 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:36 am Here's a question for you Mac.

Of the people currently alive not me how many would you lynch before nook given the naa night kill?

Everyone. The night kill being on axe is more clearing than anything else in the game. Nook was already my top town anyway but with that as an added factor I lose to him at this point.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:34 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:33 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:32 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:29 am Actually the axe kill never comes from nanook tbh... like nanook specifically never ever kills axe in that spot. Nanook is the last person in this game that Axe would ever get to. He is a liability in favour of Nanook in being alive. It's too -ev for Nanook to even be wifom.

You are thinking of this wrong. Scum nanook needs the correct final 3 or final 5. Someone like NAA is long dead before then.

The fact that it points to me is just a bonus to get his victory path started.

An exact poe of me dizzy Flanders with a shield of wilgy is an.. interesting choice.

You don't understand, after those first two days, Axe is essentially a second vote for Nanook and Axe will never turn on him. I have played with these two maybe 20 times and I have never even seen Axe vote Nanook. He is part of Nanook's wincon.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:33 am

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:32 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:29 am Actually the axe kill never comes from nanook tbh... like nanook specifically never ever kills axe in that spot. Nanook is the last person in this game that Axe would ever get to. He is a liability in favour of Nanook in being alive. It's too -ev for Nanook to even be wifom.

You are thinking of this wrong. Scum nanook needs the correct final 3 or final 5. Someone like NAA is long dead before then.

No, you are thinking of this wrong because you do not have the experience with the players to overrule me on this dude.

Achromatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:32 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:29 am Actually the axe kill never comes from nanook tbh... like nanook specifically never ever kills axe in that spot. Nanook is the last person in this game that Axe would ever get to. He is a liability in favour of Nanook in being alive. It's too -ev for Nanook to even be wifom.

You are thinking of this wrong. Scum nanook needs the correct final 3 or final 5. Someone like NAA is long dead before then.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:29 am Actually the axe kill never comes from nanook tbh... like nanook specifically never ever kills axe in that spot. Nanook is the last person in this game that Axe would ever get to. He is a liability in favour of Nanook in being alive. It's too -ev for Nanook to even be wifom.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:30 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:51 pm I mostly prefer Tommy or Porscha as a chop

I don't really think Porscha calling Sean's read on Mac wrong is a great case against her. I think town easily say stuff like that, and I think she mentioned something about assuming Mac town anyway. I mean, if she's mafia, it probably is TMI, but I don't think it's impossible that she can say that as town. But her posts has been kind of weak and wishy-washy overall. I don't get any will to solve. The problem with Porscha is that if she's town, she is likely to become more obvious later on

Tommy is both PoE and just, he's here, but he's not contributing anything. And what he does post doesn't really give me a new town feel. It doesn't really give me anything tbh. The problem with Tommy is that if he flips and flips town, we're not really getting anywhere. But I think there's also a very decent chance he's just mafia here

In any case, would mostly like to hear more from both Tommy and Porscha

I think I can probably clear Dizzy off this post alone.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:48 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:45 pm I am not voting anyone just mulling things over.

I liked that I reeled back in my read yesterday and kept my head on a swivel tbh. Understanding wilgy's wolf equity by demeanor compared to thread state is a good catch if wolf.

Probably should wait to investigate nook and dizzy.

lol you're the cop now?

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:36 pm

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:34 pm

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:33 pm Out of current options, I think I'd Flanders over Porscha.

Voting there for now.

Is that just because I am sussing Flanders right now and its easy for you to slam a vote where I am sussing and try to get me to ignore you?

No, but because Achros explanation makes sense.

If it's between Porscha and Flanders, I'd think Flanders to be the better yeet.

Also the quote Vivax's posted in question of Porscha reads as town to me rather than Vivax's read of W.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:01 pm

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:11 am Rondo is still in wolfish meta enough I'd be okay with him going over. But I'd prefer Porscha or another of my POE first tbh

Does this clear me now?

Stupid Sexy Flanders wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:30 pm It's crazy how much you guys post. Unreal.

I'm gonna change my vote to achro. They could be town, which would be unfortunate, but it might cool the page burn and shut Mac up for a bit.

Vote achro

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:30 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:24 pm So a short summary of the porscha iso.

Seanzie is spewed clear in the same post Mac was. Not a controversial take.
Vivax was already super town for me but he should be super town for you as well.

There was a post talking about players she wasn't familiar with which was labeled as lucy, achro, Tommy, etc and the etc makes me think she wasn't thinking much about this and rule of 3d it. You guys aren't going to think about this much today but just another thing to add to the lucy pile.

I also feel her handling of Flanders is strongly indicative of not being aligned although less so than some others.

Of the 'not too far not too close' defenses I would think a buddy would have there are wilgy/nanook/dizzy and of those wilgy is just 'well we tried' nanook has been incredibly non predatory for a power wolf profile to fit and dizzy has been dizzy.

I will be mulling this over but I think just from porscha's end sabi fits the Mac mold of pocket rather than partner interplay. I know sabi has some great stuff in her iso too from memory but just trying to stick to the porscha iso when it is fresh in my memory.

Also feel like early they were clearly trying to pocket rondo as well.

11 names who haven't I mentioned... I guess ender, who from the porscha end wasn't really spewed clear but that's not going to be problematic much when I get to his iso.

Good start tbh. Makes me feel like the deep wolf isn't too deep.

You dont think the fact that Ender was the opposite wagon to Porcha and she voted him to try and selfpres means he is clear? (till F3 then anything goes)

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:16 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:15 pm

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:12 pm

Achromatic wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:09 pm Rondo I have a question. You think I am town because mac is wolf right

I am just focusing on Mac today either help or dont

Okay but hear me out. Let's lull him into a false sense of security first. I think he is wolf too man but he has got the others fooled. So let him lynch me. I will flip town and look. Mac is stuck holding the L and people are going to believe you then. He can't kill you. It will be top obvious. Just stalk your prey patiently. Wait for your moment to strike.

How many beers in are we lol.