The Syndicate

Long Con wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Long Con wrote:

Long Con wrote:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
Dyslexicon - Sorry, but the third baddie would know to buddy me.
insertnamehere - bad vote today, careless
Marmot - Looked really bad in today's vote, to me.
JaggedJimmyJay - Absolutely looks like well-planned distancing from FZ when you look back over his posts. So much of it.
FZ.

Why didn't you counterclaim against FZ.?

1. Because you did.

2. I said she was lying

Long Con wrote:

Long Con wrote:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
Dyslexicon - Sorry, but the third baddie would know to buddy me.
insertnamehere - bad vote today, careless
Marmot - Looked really bad in today's vote, to me.
JaggedJimmyJay - Absolutely looks like well-planned distancing from FZ when you look back over his posts. So much of it.
FZ.

Dyslexicon wrote:@Epi - Don't understand your point about me thinking I had played with FZ before. You can check PerC if you want, this person called FM. with a dot after played and I thought it was the same person (remembered it as FZ. when I saw FZ.' name here). Blagh. I honestly thought it was the same person.

I can't answer to the stuff that FZ said, so I have no comments on that really.

Dyslexicon wrote: Also, I voted for FZ the whole fucking time EoD. I only voted JJJ when LC asked me to. Was this unclear somehow? I get that you are confirmed town, but god damn.

Marmot wrote:Do you think FZ opted to fakeclaim on her own, or that another player (in this case Dizzy) may have proposed the idea?

Dyslexicon wrote:Fuck claims. FZ has been way more scummy than LC has been to me.

Dyslexicon wrote:I've read LC way more town than FZ throughout the game. But I may suck.

Marmot wrote:Epignosis! You've just succeeded in posting pyramiding spoiler tags!!!

Marmot wrote:I'm surprised anyone believe Epignosis's cop claim even for a second. But I guess if you don't know him, it's easier to believe such things.

FZ. wrote:Hi. I was sure a lot more people would check in by now, and I'd miss a lot.

Epi and LC have started the game strongly quite early. This is unlike the last heist game where they seemed relatively trusting of each other (and were both civvies). It feels genuine at the moment, especially since Epi just went back on his suspicion. We'll see. And I have no idea how Insertnamehere factors into things, but while the jokey atmosphere is not uncommon for day 0, I always feel like it's an easy way for baddies to blend in on day 0 and appear like they have no care in the world. So I'll be keeping an eye here.

Carry on.

FZ. wrote:I'm LOL at JJJ trying to Vompatti, but it's going to be a real shame if he actually carries on for too long. If he's good this game, civvie JJJ is a lot more useful than civve Vompatti.

Eloh, Do you have baddie tells for Epi, or is your policy regarding his game similar to his own regarding your game?

I like this day 0 so far. Usually we do nothing until the next day starts.

FZ. wrote:@linki: Too many cats and I don't even know how to react to that vote.

Dyslexicon wrote:

FZ. wrote:@linki: Too many cats and I don't even know how to react to that vote.

Shock? Andger? Fear? Disguised love and admiration?
But you are the FZ that played on PerC?

Dyslexicon wrote:

FZ. wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:

FZ. wrote:I've never played with this cat person. Feels like Vompatty 2. No connection between what is going on, and his own actions.

@linki: What is PerC?

Huh, sorry. PerC is short for PersonalityCafe, which is my "home site", and I could've sworn there was a player called "FZ" that played one game there a while back but then disappeared. If it's not you then you have a mafia playing evil twin name brother or I have a shitty memory.

Nope, not me.

Shitty memory confirmed. I just checked and this person was called "FM." and not "FZ." But you may consider a DNA test.

So, what's going on?

FZ. wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Spoiler: show

FZ. wrote:I'm going to start by saying that I hate games that start with me having to defend myself. It never ends well. Either I get lynched, or I spend the entire game trying to tell people that they are wrong, and everything I say just fits into their misconception of me being bad, and whether I succeed or not, I don't have much fun. Therefore, I'm going to do my best to defend myself, but I'm not going to go nuts when people decide to attack and tell me I'm No Uing, and silly stuff like that. This is how I play.
So:

A. MP, in general, this is day 1. Yes, more has happened than usual first days here, but still, it's not like I have evidence of someone actually being bad. I talk about what I read and pops to mind as I read it, and if someone pressures me for a read, I'll state what I see. What I saw (and forgive me for not fully reading your long strategy post), was you suggesting, or at least I assumed you were, that we play the cop card smartly, and a few fake claim. Thus, the baddies can't catch the real cop. Am I wrong about that?

Then, you give about 3-4 names in green, and the rest in grey. So far, so good. I can see you doing it both as a civ and as a baddie. Then, when someone else gives a coloured list, you don't ask about their suspects, but rather why that person trusts Marmot. How can you not see why this looks suspicious? It felt to me like someone trying to fish for reasons for trusting people. And the fact that you were first to give your list (no matter that it wasn't a coloured one, got me even more worried. It's like you were drawing out people to make such a list so you can use it.

Given all that, the fact that you joined the vote on me made me doubt your civviness.
I appreciate you trying to get to the bottom of things, and if you are a civvie, then yes, we should clear things fast, but please explain to me how your actions are from a civvie point of view.


Damn, I need to go. Plenty more to say. I hope to be back later before you all lynch me.

Thank you so much, FZ.; I understand much better now.

I really didn't fathom how my post inquiring about Marmot could be seen as suspicious because I didn't even think of that interpretation.

I can now comprehend how you reached that perspective, but it wasn't what I was accomplishing with that post. I specifically asked about Marmot because the rest of the reads seemed immediately agreeable or reasonable to me, and I have trouble reading Marmot especially early in games.

On reflection, I might not have made that same post if I realized the perspective that you spouted here.

I'm not one to exercise caution when discussing information in the thread, for better or worse, not because I'm careless but in this case because I just didn't think of it that way.

I still don't think it'll matter much though if everyone posts their damn reads, so that we don't have a situation like this.

Maybe you're being genuine, I don't know. I like the fact that you're at least considering things, but look at Speedchuck's list:
MP
Epi
Marmot
Long Con
JaggedJimmyJay
insertnamehere
Dyslexicon
Luke11646
nutella
FZ
DrWilgy
Eloh

The middle group was in blue. While you were suspicious of me at that time, you didn't say anything about Wilgy or Eloh. I thought that in mafia, we're trying to find the baddies, not the civvies, and if you were interested in his motives, why not inquire about the suspects and not the civvie? Why was it so important for you to understand why he thought someone, who was not even discussed much at that point, was a civ? I can't really understand this.


And by the way, I am more careful when it comes to talking about information. Remember that game you hosted (that I shall not name), where Epi and LC were doing everything they could to lynch me, and I wouldn't say anything of importance until I really lost it? That's how I play. The thing I don't hide, is my thoughts at any relevant point. I realise that it may make me look bad when I say someone might be suspicious, but then again not, at the same time, but I don't really care. I have nothing to hide.

What do you think of Nutella's post where she gives her reasoning for voting me? Please refer to its timing as well.

Spoiler: show

FZ. wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:F.Z.

Her first post is rather difficult to follow. It has already been discussed some; I have a couple different questions based upon the highlighted content:

Spoiler: show

FZ. wrote:Hi. I was sure a lot more people would check in by now, and I'd miss a lot.

Epi and LC have started the game strongly quite early. This is unlike the last heist game where they seemed relatively trusting of each other (and were both civvies). It feels genuine at the moment, especially since Epi just went back on his suspicion. We'll see. And I have no idea how Insertnamehere factors into things, but while the jokey atmosphere is not uncommon for day 0, I always feel like it's an easy way for baddies to blend in on day 0 and appear like they have no care in the world. So I'll be keeping an eye here.

Carry on.

~ Can you expand on what differences you perceive in the LC/Epi interaction early in this game versus the previous heist (Blue vs. Red?) and what that difference means to you? It is unclear. LC and Epi seemed to trust each other at the start of last game. LC acted like he's Epi's body guard or something, and when I asked Epi about it, he preferred not to answer. ANd like I said, they were both civvies. So when they started going at each other right at the start, it felt different. The jokey tone made me doubt my initial gut feeling that the difference meant something, so my post there just conveys that I've noticed something and I'm keeping an eye

~ What was the purpose or inspiration for mentioning INH in this post? when I thought that maybe that exchange could be innocent, INH was someone I thought could be trying to make something more of that situation with his facetious attitude. Like I said, it's easy to look at ease on the first day when you're bad. I don't think INH has posted much or at all since then.

Spoiler: show

FZ. wrote:This feels like you're trying to draw out the cop. And it feels even worse when it was your idea in the first place to give a list of civvie reads.


I think I might vote for you MP.

This strikes me as a reach, considering MP is Ask About Every Read in the Entire Thread guy.Like I said, it's interesting that he didn't ask about the suspects, only about one specific trusted one, who wasn't on others' list or a consensus among the players

Spoiler: show

FZ. wrote:To be fair, I think that Nutella and I are getting accused for similar things. If it's between me and her, I'll vote Nutella to save myself, but I can't say I really see what Epi is seeing. People keep thinking that only baddies say something but contradict themselves in the same post to leave every option open later on. That's bullshit. As a baddie, I've tried to look determined plenty of times. Going after someone relentlessly, and I'm often a lot more hesitant as a civvie because the pressure of making a mistake is making me doubt myself.

Regarding the highlighted portion, it'd be ideal if you could expand, FZ, on the specifics of Epi's suspicion of nutella that you don't agree with. You've sort of paired yourself with her by stating that the cases are similar and that she'd only be your vote if self-preservation demands it. Tell me more about the similarities you observe. At them time, I felt that we were both being suspected for basically one post which people viewed as containing both smudging someone and taking it back, or something like that. Apparently, I wasn't being accusatory enough in my post, just throwing something out there and going back on it. That's how I perceived that accusation, and thought Nutella was being accused for the same thing. But since then Epi has explained that his suspicion was for different reasons, and I can't say her post with her vote put me at ease. I will address that later on.

That I've so many questions to ask stemming from 11 posts isn't ideal.

I'll note separately that F.Z. has been the most animated respondent to criticism, there's not a lack of emotion here. I'll have to look back into some prior games to see if I can determine what meaning that has if anything.

My answers in Orange in the text. You're also very welcome to check my previous games when I'm suspected. Let me know what you find...

Upon review, I see that 3J already picked up on the INH line that I did earlier, and overall, this exchange looks like a genuine dig for information.

3J trust +2

Also that ellipsis.

Spoiler: show

FZ. wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Jay, regarding your second reads post, I have a couple of comments regarding FZ:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:That I've so many questions to ask stemming from 11 posts isn't ideal.

I wanted to single that out, because that expresses a problem I've been having with FZ. from the start of the game. I still don't really know where her head is at remotely, and I feel we have the potential to mindmeld pretty well just like you and I do. Hopefully she's spoken to that and responded to some of your beefs/inquiries here; I look forward to reading those myself.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'll note separately that F.Z. has been the most animated respondent to criticism, there's not a lack of emotion here. I'll have to look back into some prior games to see if I can determine what meaning that has if anything.

To speak to this, since FZ. and I have played together fairly extensively when it comes to her history here on TS (and otherwise I've hosted her in Pikmin), I would say it's difficult to interpret FZ.'s emotional responses for any sort of alignment-indicative behavior. I've seen her get genuinely upset plenty of times as both alignments, particularly because she unfortunately has a tendency to get mislynched around these parts. I would say I've seen plenty of emotion from her when bad as well though.

Apart from that game when we were both bad and you dragged me with you when you went down, when exactly have you seen me as bad? Amazingly, I think I was bad only one more time here and I don't remember you being around that game. but maybe I'm wrong. Please enlighten me.


As for where I'm standing at the moment, I wanted to prepare a post with some of my reads, but I don't have time right now. I'll just say that at the risk of appearing like I'm doing a NoU, Nutella's vote for me, followed by this post which came when I think she had the most votes:

nutella wrote:
Also, having re-read the thread I do strongly suspect FZ. Something about her responses to Dizzy and MP felt off, and I didn't like her writeoff of Wilgy either. Wilgy feels like Wilgy, sure, but do you mean he feels like civ Wilgy or are you just putting off talking about him because you don't feel like it?

Plus her apparent no-u on MP is straight up suspicious as hell. I'm going ahead and placing a vote on FZ.

A little convenient if you ask me. She just found that post and agrees with it.
As for Wilgy, I didn't write him off. I actually think I said something similar last game. I can only get a feeling for Wilgy's alignment when the game moves from day 1.

I'm still not convinced on MP, so it's an option, though if he's good, I'd feel really bad if we lynch him after he just took his vote off of me. I hate lynching civvies and if he is good, he's trying a hell of lot more than most of the players.

And there's INH, who after his initial joking around and harping on the Epi-LC back and forth, hasn't said much since. I hate lynching someone who is not around. It didn't end well last game when we lynched SVS, but I'd rather lynch someone I'm not sure about and is not contributing at all, than someone who I'm a little more suspicious of but is trying harder and will be a bigger loss if we're wrong.

@linki: MP, I'm not interested in justifying a baddie read of you, I'm trying to figure it out. I get what you're saying, but I'm trying to understand why you would ask about the civvie read and not about the mafia read. What does it give you? Why aren't you interested in why he saw Eloh as bad? Or Wilgy?


Endless endless linkis

Another by-the-by mention of INH. "And there's INH." Her commentary on INH sounds like she has a teammate who has taken a powder. I've been there numerous times, and it's frustrating, but what can one do? FZ. employs recency bias by reminding us of how lynching S~V~S worked out for us, and while riding the fence, she says she'd rather lynch someone who isn't contributing than someone she's more suspicious of, which I don't buy: Eloh has done nothing and FZ. says nothing about her- probably because she knows that's an avenue that won't get her far as long as I'm alive, but she also knows killing her isn't a good idea either.

INH suspicion +3

FZ. wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

FZ. wrote:@linki: MP, I'm not interested in justifying a baddie read of you, I'm trying to figure it out. I get what you're saying, but I'm trying to understand why you would ask about the civvie read and not about the mafia read. What does it give you? Why aren't you interested in why he saw Eloh as bad? Or Wilgy?

This stuff in particular doesn't inspire me. MP asked about one stated read; there is no obligation to be curious about other reads too at the exact same moment.

Come on, he didn't question his suspect list at any point. He only questioned his Marmot list.

@linki: I just gave you a few names that bother me. I'm sorry I'm having trouble looking for suspects when I'm spending so much time defending myself.


endless linki: like I said, if you people stop posting and I don't waste my time trying to make my post go through, I can answer. I'm about to give up. This is super annoying. Suddenly, everyone thinks I'm bad.

3J trust +1

FZ. wrote:I gave my reads on MP, Nutella and also INH. I feel like I wasted too much time defending myself which is why I hate when that happens. It's a circle thing where you're poked for not giving names, when all you do all the time is defend yourself. Yet, I feel I still talked about suspicions. I'm sorry you don't like them. That doesn't make me bad. It either makes me wrong, or it makes me smarter than the rest.

I object that FZ. offered any opinion of INH. She gave a bunch of this or that commentary.

INH suspicion +2

FZ. wrote:Civ reads:

Epi
Wilgy
Chuck


Oh, did I forget to mention that LC is not up my trusted list either. Sorry if I'm suspicious of almost everyone who is suspicious of me. But he was "pinged" by my one post, and ever since is letting everyone else do the fighting while he is sitting back and not really saying anything.

I'm good and Wilgy was good. I found no reason why FZ. found speedchuck to be good.

speedchuck suspicion +1

FZ. wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

FZ. wrote:Do you actually read my posts? Or are you too vain and sure of yourself that you just fit everything to you wrong (or evil) theory? You want to lynch me, lynch me, just don't say false things when you haven't read what I write. You'll be viewed differently after I'm lynched. Pretty sure twisting my words will come bite you in the ass when I'm gone. I explained what I felt about Nutella now. I explained to JJJ why I said what I said about INH, and also commented on the fact he isn't here now.

So, to be quite clear: you suspect MP is opportunistic in this moment and is not genuine in his suspicion of you? Yes or no.

Like I said, his obsession is making me fear I was wrong about him and he might be a civ. Not willing to let my suspicion die yet, but obsessed MP is usually civvie



linki: MP, I'm sorry. I let frustration get the better of me. Shouldn't happen.

This question is superfluous if 3J is on FZ.'s team, and would only serve to fan the flames of her lynch.

3J trust +1

FZ. wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:

FZ. wrote:Civ reads:

Epi
Wilgy
Chuck


Oh, did I forget to mention that LC is not up my trusted list either. Sorry if I'm suspicious of almost everyone who is suspicious of me. But he was "pinged" by my one post, and ever since is letting everyone else do the fighting while he is sitting back and not really saying anything.

Why Wilgy as town?
I don't think I really see clear town for any of these, but am interested to hear your explanation.

Chuck feels genuine. He gives straight answers. Doesn't feel like he's going around.
Wilgy is Wilgy. Like I said, I said it last game on day 1. I saw nothing that could concern me, and I was right. I'm not seeing it now either. My gut tells me he's okay, but I'll wait for next day to decide. In any case, he's someone I don't want lynched today.
And Epi just feels good. Trying to look at things from different angles. Not following the crowd, and thinking for himself.

"Feels genuine."

Nah.

speedchuck suspicion +1

FZ. wrote:

speedchuck wrote:Poll closed. I guess we wait for EOD. Will there be nightchat?

CFD = Chinese Fire Drill
Switching very quickly from one lynch to another with little time to spare

Thanks

Looking at the timing of this, it would seem to me that speedchuck saw FZ.'s post when he tried to post, and responded in the form of his addendum to his original post. It doesn't look like a teammate answered the question in the thread.

speedchuck trust +1

FZ. wrote:Sorry, I'm kind of exhausted after last night, and had a tough day, so not really in the mood for mafia. I did skim a little, and MP, you do have a point with JJJ. I expect more from JJJ when he's a civ. Right now, it feels as if he's asking a lot of questions, but not really stating any thoughts. It's like he's from the UN. There's an example in his post below.


But, to answer your question, JJJ:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

FZ. wrote:Meh. RIP Nutella.

All this shifting of votes at the end of the day feels to me like someone wanted to cause chaos. Wish I knew who. I'm going to sleep. Will think about it tomorrow.

Why are you inclined to view the end of day sequence as being orchestrated by a "someone" as opposed to the collective of voters all involved in that motion? What does that mean to you, and what candidates would you assert there are to fill the role of "someone"?

I didn't like the way votes kept changing. I'm not a fan of that unless you have a good reason to change your vote at the last minute, like your top suspect convinced you there's a chance you might be wrong about them. I disagree with Epi (I think it was him), who said it helps civvies learn more later on. I think it's an easy way to get away with your vote. "It's exciting, I love these kind of votes", "I wanted to see what others would do", and stuff like that. I think it makes it harder to maintain accountability.
To answer your last question, I'd have to go back and read the last few pages of last day, and I'm not in a state to do it right now. Sorry. Maybe tomorrow.

Vague agreement with MP.

3J trust +2

Spoiler: show

FZ. wrote:So, looking back I found this post by MP and it made me think:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Long Con, I'm similarly troubled by your contributions at the moment; I don't understand why you're jumping in after the fact and expressing agreement with this Wilgy argument.

Can you do something else for now and explain some of those reads on your rainbow in greater detail, if you don't mind? Even a brief sentence or whatever would be fine. Because I don't understand how you're coming to most of those, including the bad read of me. As far as I'm aware, the only thing you said to me earlier was "MP you're probably bad k" or something like that. So by all means, if there's something you want to talk about, let's do it.

First, we have LC thinking my one post on day 0, is so bad that it's enough to vote for me. Then, he disappears and lets all the rest do the dirty job of actually conversing with me on the matter.
After the lynch is over, he doesn't have anything new to add. All he says about me again, is how that one post at the beginning was just so bad, that he has to stick to his instincts. It doesn't matter that when asked why he didn't play a more active role at the end of the day he says: "I wasn't even that sure FZ was bad" or something in those lines. When having to give something, he resorts back to that first post. No regards to what I said later.

After that, his only contribution is to back Wilgy up in his conversation with Epi. Notice he is not taking a stand about Epi's alignment, he's just agreeing with Wilgy that basically, everyone can have their own opinions...Seriously? Feels like he's trying to be more involved without saying anything.

And it's only when JJJ starts asking questions about my post lynch reaction, that he suddenly thinks that I'm manufacturing an opinion with the appearance of civviness:

Long Con wrote:

FZ. wrote:Sorry, I'm kind of exhausted after last night, and had a tough day, so not really in the mood for mafia. I did skim a little, and MP, you do have a point with JJJ. I expect more from JJJ when he's a civ. Right now, it feels as if he's asking a lot of questions, but not really stating any thoughts. It's like he's from the UN. There's an example in his post below.


But, to answer your question, JJJ:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

FZ. wrote:Meh. RIP Nutella.

All this shifting of votes at the end of the day feels to me like someone wanted to cause chaos. Wish I knew who. I'm going to sleep. Will think about it tomorrow.

Why are you inclined to view the end of day sequence as being orchestrated by a "someone" as opposed to the collective of voters all involved in that motion? What does that mean to you, and what candidates would you assert there are to fill the role of "someone"?

I didn't like the way votes kept changing. I'm not a fan of that unless you have a good reason to change your vote at the last minute, like your top suspect convinced you there's a chance you might be wrong about them. I disagree with Epi (I think it was him), who said it helps civvies learn more later on. I think it's an easy way to get away with your vote. "It's exciting, I love these kind of votes", "I wanted to see what others would do", and stuff like that. I think it makes it harder to maintain accountability.
To answer your last question, I'd have to go back and read the last few pages of last day, and I'm not in a state to do it right now. Sorry. Maybe tomorrow.

I don't see anything wrong with JJJ's questions. I have the same questions when I read your post. "...someone wanted to cause chaos. Wish I knew who..." I, too, felt like there was no central mastermind inciting chaos. This feels more like you are manufacturing an opinion with the appearance of civ-mindedness... are you accusing Epi of being the one?

So what I see here, is someone that throws around an accusation to appear like he's hunting, disappears and lets others be responsible for the lynch, sticks to that initial suspicion without barely giving anything else, wagons on others' opinions and calls others bad without backing it up (MP).

I think LC is bad. I don't like to vote so early in the day, but I don't know how much I'll be around, so I'm placing my vote here for now. When I have time, I'm going to look at JJJ...because.

3J trust +1

FZ. wrote:A lot has happened since I was last here. I'm not really caught up, because I just came from a friend whose father just passed away, and wasn't really in the mood to read.

You lynched Wilgy What was that about? All I kept seeing was people asking whether other people objected voting for Wilgy. There was no real good case on him. JJJ is really not looking very civvie at the moment. After looking to be very neutral to me for a very long time, It feels like last day he was trying to lead a lynch so he comes off looking as a civvie who isn't afraid of the consequences. It feels manufactured to me. Couple that with MP's death, and I really think we are looking at a potential mafia.

LC with his tunnel vision on me, is just annoying. It feels like all he's doing is looking at my posts with his decision already made, and everything is twisted to fit into his theory. I'm done. If he's good, then whatever. If he's bad, it feels like I'm the only one seeing it. I seriously don't get why people are so trusting of him.

Lastly, I was thinking the exact same thing Marmot was, regarding Luke's death and Dizzy's potential part in it. The only problem I have with this theory is, why would Dizzy go to the trouble of trying to lynch Luke. At that point no one seemed to take Luke that seriously. If he thought Luke was the cop, wouldn't it be better to wait until the night to take him out? So the cop, for example won't try to find his ties and look into people he thought were connected to him?

Spoiler: show

3J trust +1
Dys suspicion +3

FZ. wrote:By the way, why didn't Eloh and INH vote last day?

Is she expecting anyone to seriously come in and answer for these people? What possible answers was she looking for, especially with regard to the latter person?

INH suspicion +2

FZ. wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

FZ. wrote:I still need to ask: Is there a reason why you asked people if they have a reason to oppose a Wilgy lynch and not just simply asked them what they thought about Wilgy instead?

My question focuses on civilian indicators which would give me a reason to lynch someone else. The decision had to be made while the thread was stagnating against the activity of the burglary at the worst time. It was crickets in here and someone had to galvanize people into a lynch, so that's what I did. It didn't work out, shit happens.

What's the difference to you?

When you ask people what they think about someone, they actually have to formulate an opinion and have to think more carefully on what they say and do. When you ask if they oppose a lynch, they have to think of a good reason to oppose the lynch. It seems harder to come up with a good reason to prevent a lynch. That way, they lynch becomes easier. Was wondering if that's what you were trying to achieve.

3J trust +1

FZ. wrote:

Long Con wrote:

FZ. wrote:It means that anyone can ask questions. I don't think I see anything civvie like in asking questions. It's a way to avoid being looked at, because you were only asking questions. You weren't really pointing the finger at me. The UN council comparison is a figure of speech meant to say you're on the fence. Not taking sides. I guess you'd have to be from where I am, to get that...Though you changed your behaviour since then. It actually worries me more, because it feels like it was a change done to please the critics.

Can you elaborate on JJJ's change and how it pleases the critics?

I think he has recently looked more active in hunting baddies. It is possible that he has found his footing in the game and is starting to become the civvie JJJ I've come to expect, but the way he acted in the early stages of the game is definitely not what I would expect from his civvie persona. First of all, he Vompattied and only started saying substantial stuff when a few people (including myself) said they want more from him. The thing is, when he came out of the Vompatti persona, his questions didn't feel like someone trying to really find baddies. It felt as though he's asking questions for the sake of looking like he's involved. Then, after the first day, MP gave this big post (which I admit I still haven't finished reading), which was a case on JJJ, and I said I agreed with him. MP was killed that night, and suddenly, JJJ started giving more. More accusations, more serious ISOs and stuff like that. Does JJJ usually take time to warm up? I remember him going strong from the get go.

"I think he has recently looked more active in hunting"
"It is possible he found his footing"
etc.

Hedged language abounds.

3J trust +2

FZ. wrote:

Marmot wrote:Voting insertnamehere.

Why?
What's really the case against INH besides him not being around when it really matters?

Spoiler: show

It really sucks having absent teammates, doesn't it?

INH suspicion +2

FZ. wrote:This is really not a good week to mafia for me, but I'm really trying. Looks like we're already in the graveyard. Where the hell is everyone? I'm going out and will be back in about 4 hours, but won't have much time.

I'd like to hear the case on INH.
I'd like to hear more from Dizzy. No one answered me if they think if it's likely Dizzy as a baddie would try to lynch the person he thought was the cop, and not just try to NK him instead.
I'd really like Eloh to show up and grace us with her wisdom.

There are a few people I'm considering for the lynch, but I think we are getting to a point where a mistake could be crucial, and it needs to be discussed.

Two subtle defenses of INH and Dys. The comment on Eloh looks snotty.

INH suspicion +1
Dys suspicion +1
Elohden trust +1

And the smoking gun:

Spoiler: show

FZ. wrote:Okay, I really didn't want to do this, and I hoped it might not come to this, but like I said, this is a really bad time for me to play mafia, and I can't be here at all today, and we're getting to the stage where if we mislynch again, we are very close to losing. So I'm doing this, because there's a good chance I'm getting lynched and dying anyway, so here goes:


I AM THE COP

I peeked WIlgy night0. I told you he was good. You went and lynched him when I was gone.
I peeked Epi night1, because after we mislynched Nutella, who Epi went after, I doubted my initial trust of him and added with the fact I felt he was being different from last game, I wanted to make sure. I got civ.

Lastly, I peeked LC tonight because duh, I was suspicious of him and told you all he was bad. I was right. Once I knew he was mafia, I thought I'd sit back a little and see who he might be working with. Hence I didn't vote for him yet and wanted to see what he said and how he reacted to other people.

If you view the thread, you will see that I'm telling the truth. We really need to lynch LC. I think there's a chance JJJ is working with him, because of his "theory" about LC and I being on the same team. I told you it's laughable.

I'm really sorry I'm dropping this bomb and leaving, but I have no choice. You'll just have to decide whether you believe me or not, and no doubt, LC will try to manipulate you now into believing I am lying, so please just go back and read the thread. I left the hints subtly, but they are there.
Funnily, I guess the cop role, which is my first time ever getting it on the syndicate, by the way, made me act less natural than my usual self. I got really frustrated on the first day, when you almost lynched me. I'm sorry for that, but I guess the upside is, I never got NK.

And with that, I'm voting LC, and leaving. I know I'll probably get NK tonight, but I think it's better than to get lynched now.

This falls into my category of "lynch a civilian to provide evidence that someone else is not bad with him and therefore not bad," and in this case, that someone is 3J.

3J suspicion +1

++++

Given that MP suspected FZ. and was killed, and then Luke suspected Dys and was killed, and given the above, I am calling the mafia team FZ., INH, and Dys.

Good game.

Dyslexicon wrote:

Golden wrote:You were implying that one of the people who claimed cop should be lunched. Why do you see that as a good strategic choice. Wouldn't keeping them alive and forcing the mafia to decide between killing the real cop or risking new red peeks be better?

Epi, did you suspect fz was lying?

I didn't even think that. I thought one of them was lying and therefore scum, and so one of those should be lynched and if wrong, we knew who to lynch next day. I didn't quite buy FZ's claim in the first place, I actually thought LC could be the cop from beforehand, but then Epi claimed cop which threw me off. I don't see this making much difference though - are you arguing this as a point of suspicion against me?

Golden wrote:You were implying that one of the people who claimed cop should be lunched. Why do you see that as a good strategic choice. Wouldn't keeping them alive and forcing the mafia to decide between killing the real cop or risking new red peeks be better?

Epi, did you suspect fz was lying?

Dyslexicon wrote:Wait, what is happening? Why are we moving from FZ? We have two cop claims, surely we should lynch one of those? O.o

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Epi why the hell are you doing this right now? I am not bad and you do not have a red peek on me.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I'm the real cop and 3J is bad. I forgot to send in my other PMs though. Sorry.

Nope. Cut that shit out. What do you think of FZ/LC?

Dyslexicon wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I'm the real cop and 3J is bad. I forgot to send in my other PMs though. Sorry.

Who's your peek then?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Was Luke a good kill choice?

I can understand him being viewed as a cop candidate given his low profile, so from that perspective it's an understandable choice. That is the chief point against Dizzy.

It's also a chief point that someone was trying to set up Dizzy.

Sure. If that was the motive then I think it was a bad choice.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Was Luke a good kill choice?

I can understand him being viewed as a cop candidate given his low profile, so from that perspective it's an understandable choice. That is the chief point against Dizzy.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Long Con wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Long Con, tell me why MP was an obvious night kill choice.

Civ leadership role, little to no suspicion, lots of cop talk.

I think he was a poor kill choice. He was the most vocal about cop cover and did not leave a readily-discernible free peek that I can see on Day 1. You suggested earlier that you thought he might be the cop yourself. Why did you think so?

Long Con wrote:

Epignosis wrote:LC, I have asserted that you and 3J are bad together. You have nothing to say to that charge?

Well, I deny the accusation. Happy to lynch him. You really think that?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MovingPictures07

Similarly to Epi, I think MP has stepped up to fill the vacuum of content left behind by my silliness. This is more typical of his play regardless of alignment, but I haven't had a problem with his content to this point. I think he looks like he is making a genuine effort to set the game on a proper initial course. I particularly appreciate his effort to generate early dialogue on the matter of cop cover, as it recalls his experiences in Arrested Development Mafia when he was able to successfully draw a night kill while covering for the cop (which alongside the cop's peeks proved to be a game-winning move). It makes a lot of sense for MP to care about this more than other players. I never weighed on the matter myself; I'll do so now: I think cover is important and should be engaged. It doesn't necessarily have to be blatant "my peek is _____", but at least one assertive, clear read can go a long way to confusing the mafia in their cop hunt. I will reassert MP's point that in this particular setup, the cop is of paramount importance. His or her lifespan can often be the factor which decides who wins the game. MP's my top civilian read.

MP, please tell me more about your town read on speedchuck.

Long Con wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
He promoted a speedchuck lynch and voiced his willingness to give FZ more time per her request when she was away. I don't understand this, after he'd spend a large portion of his effort in this game prior casing her, debating with her, and calling her his top suspect. She asked for time and it was granted.

We lynched S~V~S on Day 1 in Blue vs Red recently, while she was completely not there, and while we had an outed baddie in the thread. I had negative emotions about that, so this time, I'm Joe Cool about allowing time.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Long Con

I appreciate his willingness to insert himself in a diverse array of dialogues so far. He seems to have offered his two cents in every conversation of note and his language is candid and loose. I don't get the impression he is concerned with appearances. When LC is bad I think he tends to be a manipulator (more than any anonymous baddie must be a manipulator) in that he takes strategic angles and undercuts arguments with ad hominem or the like. I don't see evidence of that stuff in his current post history. I do have one beef:

Spoiler: show

Long Con wrote:

nutella wrote:Epi I am not bad. I'm not sure how I can convince you at this point but you are barking up the wrong tree.

Every time I feel like saying someone is "barking up the wrong tree" I stop myself... because at some point, it was seen as, well, something baddies say. I may have gotten caught by it once... maybe just scared for my life. But I always remembered.

Ellipsis abuse is the devil.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Long Con ISO

Spoiler: show

Long Con wrote:

nutella wrote:Epi I am not bad. I'm not sure how I can convince you at this point but you are barking up the wrong tree.

Every time I feel like saying someone is "barking up the wrong tree" I stop myself... because at some point, it was seen as, well, something baddies say. I may have gotten caught by it once... maybe just scared for my life. But I always remembered.

Gross ellipsis abuse.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: Conclusion

There are a couple decent moments outnumbered by numerous questionable moments. I suspect LC more than I did before this exercise. His treatment of FZ and speedchuck has me considering the notion that both LC and FZ are bad and their exchanges in this game have been bullshit. It started with LC initiating suspicion of her and then going silent about it when she was almost lynched. It continued when he linked her to speedchuck based upon what I view as weak content, and then when he let her pass through day phase per her request. It's tinfoil perhaps and I welcome others' thoughts on the matter.

Independent of that I'd call LC a suspect given the prevalence of vague reads and the fact that outside FZ discussion he hasn't actually given much to this game.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:If not FZ, I'd rather lynch INH than Long Con. He has questions to answer, but lynching him right now would feel like a knee-jerk.

speedchuck wrote:Can somebody remind me what the case on JJJ is?

Marmot wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Fine. Luke.

How do you agree with the entirety of my post, but are voting Luke anyway?

Marmot wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:@JJJ, Do you have an argument for not voting Luke?

Among the low posters, he has provided at least a *case* of some kind. I believe he is relatively new to the game and I think his play reflects that. There is some manner of effort present even in a limited capacity. I'd prefer him to be more present, particularly right now, but he is hardly alone on that front in this game.

I don't want to be rude, but that was not a good case. It was I need to do something kind of thing, without getting much heat for it. Plus, and this I realize is totally subjective, but when I play with people for the first time I'm almost always tried used as a scape goat for scum. Something about my presense seems like there would be things to pick on or something. Or my vibe is different, or I get the "you're tricksterish and we can't trust you". I've seen this before. I realize he is new, but this looks like new scum to me, not new town. The fact that he has gotten so little attention against him despite being so absent and having imo very questionable posts also speaks volumes to me.

I do think Luke is a civilian, and putting forth an effort to mimic what other civilians are doing.

Of course, there is the chance he's mafia and being guided by a seasoned mafia player. However, there is a very small handful of players I could see doing such a thing. One of them is dead and a civilian. Two of them are voting for him right now, and the other one is Jay, a player defending him. I do not think that a teammate of his would be so quick to bus him.

Yes there's a fair chance of this, but I think Luke is striving to play as a civilian of his own accord.

Dyslexicon wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:I want to lynch Luke. I think he's mafia avoiding responsibility.

Vote Luke

He put up the primary case against you.

Color me uninpressed.

Dyslexicon wrote:I want to lynch Luke. I think he's mafia avoiding responsibility.

Vote Luke

speedchuck wrote:

Long Con wrote:Can I have an opinion from everyone please? On a scale of 1 to 10, How likely is it that FZ will be lynched in the next three days?

8.

Oh, btw, Eloh is decently active in survivor. Not here. I'm leaving a vote on her for a few.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Epi, what do you think of Elohcin so far?

Elohcin wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Elohcin wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Elohcin wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:I also like the way LC handled all of that conversation, looking into it more intently.

I'd say I have two town reads already then. Cool.

What about me? What about me?

Inspire me. GTH what do you make of Epi's alignment?

I think he is probably good and just stirring up trouble.

What in his posts specifically leads you to that conclusion? Can you walk me through your thought process a bit, if you don't mind?

Now, I haven't totally caught up, but I think his tone is that of just having fun. He was picking on me for my grammar knowing I've been using my phone mostly and that my stubby fingers don't work well with autocorrect.

He may still be mafia, but out of the gate...I saw him as having fun and not serious.

@FZ (I think it was) - I don't really have baddie tells for Epi.

I'll catch up on in a bit.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Epi, what has inspired you to drop FZ and I from your lynch pool?

*That was also the same game in which I spent literally nine straight hours writing a massive eight post case categorizing and analyzing every single thing DharmaHelper had posted, whom I was also certain was bad. He was good and important too.

Dyslexicon wrote:I'm going to copy MP for a while, and honestly some of this is goodwill/instinct, which may not sound convincing, but I find I do better when I don't overthink.

LC
JJJ
Speed
Wilgy
INH

Epi
Eloh
Marmot
FZ
Luke

Couldn't find a grey color. MP hacks!

The names are somewhat ordered. But the devide is more players I have reason to think is town, and players I don't really have reason to think is town.

speedchuck wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Long Con wrote:What do you think of speedchuck? I have a bad feeling about him, but I went through his posts and I don't see much to catch him on. Some of it is connected to FZ turning up bad, I think.

I don't have anything working in speedchuck's favor. I would lynch him.

Who would you not lynch?

Long Con wrote:What do you think of speedchuck? I have a bad feeling about him, but I went through his posts and I don't see much to catch him on. Some of it is connected to FZ turning up bad, I think.

Dyslexicon wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Random reasons. Cool.

Yus. Mostly cause you're so null to me and I don't know what to do with that. Can we hug it out?

Long Con wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:Now, you are stating that you'd rather be killed so I do better? do you honestly believe that? wouldn't a civilian mindset prefer "We should kill you so that we can move past your suspicion of me?" especially if the suspicion came from what you felt was nowhere?

I don't understand what you're asking here.

You said we should kill you so Wilgy can get past his suspicion. Shouldn't you prefer to kill Wilgy, since you know 100% that you are Civ, theoretically?

DrWilgy wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I answered your original question. Now you are asking a new question.

What prompts you to think that is needed?

"Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?"

"I do."

Implicit in that response is the response to your previous question: I think you come after me without thought or judgment, and so it's best if I go away so you can do better.

I disagree with this, but I do somewhat believe you when you say that you say this based on your interactions with me and Marmot in Blue vs Red.

Epi here's what I saw. MP was a primary force on FZ being bad. FZ was a counter force in that exchange, causing what I would say to be an almost even clash during it's time. Think of two different colered clouds bumping into each other but not mixing.

Then a tertiary force comes along with a Hazlenut vote. Clearly a high momentum force that sways the MP force away. That was you Epi. Then that momentum blew away the FZ suspicion and the thread began to fluidly mix again.

Here's the problem I have with that. I know that as a baddie, you are good with momentum.

DrWilgy wrote:The example I hinted at was vocaroo. You placed a vote on me when other players where discussing my lynching. I saw this as an attempt to save Zebra by you swaying the thread/vote momentum.

Unlike vocaroo though, this one took off and you questioned if it was a bus. I don't think you really thought it was a bus. I don't think many people would see it as a bus either considering the votes went from 3v0 to 3v4.

DrWilgy wrote:You also noted the #1 Feb often leads lynches. Mindset behind this, I read this from many angles and the angle that makes the most sense to me is "The baddie who is scared of the wagon they just made". Which would also reflect why you moved your vote around as much as you did, only to move it back.

DrWilgy wrote:Now, you are stating that you'd rather be killed so I do better? do you honestly believe that? wouldn't a civilian mindset prefer "We should kill you so that we can move past your suspicion of me?" especially if the suspicion came from what you felt was nowhere?

DrWilgy wrote:There is an angle where I can see otherwise, but I don't think this is the case. The chances aren't as great.

Is my suspicion still unwarranted?

Marmot wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Long Con wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:No, quite the opposite. MP being civ supported Epi and FZ being bad.

Lynching MP would've validated that or invalidated that.

The lack of stability in my read is that mafia made the kill that gave us the info. Had it been a lynching I would've voted FZ and Epi the next cycle in a heartbeat.

The reassessment I called for was because of this. I need to take a step back and reread with the flow of the conversation in mind, subject points and focuses of interaction to see if my original observations are supported by the new information (though it was gained through a nk).

Epi, during my brief skim, I recall you stating something along the lines of "Lynch me so Wilgy can be done with me" yes? What prompts you to think this is needed? Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?

Not bad.

I look forward to hearing your reassessment conclusions.

Not bad? It's horrible. This is a closed setup where a lynch or Night kill provides the same information. MP being lynched wouldn't change the fact that I am a civilian and FZ. is whatever she is.

Horrid thinking.

This is an open setup though.