The Syndicate

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Civilians are toast, so please kill me tonight.
This was a post I'd been keeping in my back pocket and is the main reason I killed Epi instead of MM. This post told me that MM had nothing left to use against me.

It's a real shame the Mafia tried to kill me first. I could have handed your ass to you.

G-Man wrote:
Epignosis wrote:G-Man should have never replaced MP. That salvaged the serial killer.

Walk of shame, G-Man. Walk of shame.
Do I feel bad about contributing to Jimmy's victory? Not really. My lack of understanding of what came before my subbing in certainly speaks to the dangers of subbing someone in cold so late into a post-heavy game but I can live with contributing to a serial killer victory much more than had I aided in a mafia win. Serial killers have the odds stacked against them from the start, so it's nice to see one pull it off every now and then.

It did make sense that Jimmy was the SK based on what little I gleaned from what little I read. The reason I pulled him off the poll was to force us into discussing who else might be bad. Otherwise we might have just lazy lynched Jimmy and not thought about the next baddie. I didn't want us slacking off. I also wanted to try to force the mafia into killing Jimmy. Mafia teams often seem to let the civvies deal with the serial killer because it saves them a kill. I wanted the mafia to still feel threatened.

It all bit me in the butt and taught me a lesson about cold-subbing. I probably won't do it again.

I loved all the attention to detail. I never feel adequate as a game designer, so I love seeing games with lots of secrets that don't gum up the works. Well done Rico!

I actually can't fault you for that G. That makes sense.

Still,

G-Man should have never replaced MP. That salvaged the serial killer.

Walk of shame, G-Man. Walk of shame.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Any endgame scenario is up to the host Rico. You did what you thought was best, and it's not like you could have asked us what we thought beforehand.

I think the best rule of thumb is that civilians must be able to control a lynch to continue playing. 50% of the votes does not meet that requirement, so 1 vs. 1 without extra votes or a lynch protection would always be a civilian loss.
I'd argue that the condition should be one where there no longer exists a (feasible) scenario for a civilian win, so if it's 1v1 with ties determined by the coin toss, so be it.
The problem with this is that the SK is already a loner from the getgo. To resort to a coin flip when he manages to reduce the civilians down to 1 would be too unfair to such a role.

I agree with MM.

I read through the roles. That's very well done. Balanced despite our paranoia, and had some exciting goings on in there.

Ricochet, this was very fun.

And one of the most frustrating damn things I've ever played.

Providence "But d'you think the end of the world is coming? So says the preacher man but... I don't go by what he says" [Secrets] Each Night, can make a guess on who the lynched player during the subsequent Day phase will be. If the guess is correct and the lynched player is civilian, the player will be protected. Ability will be exhausted after one save or three unsuccessful attempts.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:Then I stayed firm on 3J being the serial killer on the basis of a skipped kill. I saw through that bullshit.
I was actually told entering Night 8 that I was not allowed to kill that night. I need to look at all of Rico's details to see why that was; I'm not sure.

Really? I was going to post sarcasm that said, "Maybe the serial killer's role said he couldn't kill Night 8!"

Ricochet wrote:
Epignosis wrote:Goddamn Rico.
wut

That expression means "Holy shit dude!" in this context.

I like the detail you put into the visuals. Real smart.

I am going to gloat like hell.

I saw why INH shouldn't be lynched (no info). I saw why A Person shouldn't be lynched (no info). I DID have info on Boomslang.

Then I stayed firm on 3J being the serial killer on the basis of a skipped kill. I saw through that bullshit.

Too bad there wasn't one more civilian around.

Maybe if you people would have listened to me early on.

Also also....

Nuking the Mafia keeps my FEB top score alive.

Goddamn Rico.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Does that mean I was lynched or I win?
Who cares? You killed me you ass.
Yeah I felt like an ass. It was a strategic choice though -- Marmot was a bit more dejected about the situation and seemed less likely to have any last tricks up his sleeve.

Risky move on your part.

I killed Vompatti.

I'm only happy that I solved everything but was unable to do anything about it.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Does that mean I was lynched or I win?

Who cares? You killed me you ass.

You're welcome.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:Despite how things turn out, and despite how much criticism I got, I feel like this was perhaps my best civilian performance.
And you and I climb over the sea to the valley.

I was looking at my 12-string guitar when you said that.

Despite how things turn out, and despite how much criticism I got, I feel like this was perhaps my best civilian performance.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I saw JaggedJimmyJay with the devil.

Me too.

I'm moving my vote.

Merry Christmas, 3J!

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Bleh.

Linki: This is true. But I've read you as civilian since Night 2. It may have been for the wrong reasons, but it's enough reason to eliminate you.

Linki x2: I do follow. I loathe the predicament where I'm deciding who wins based on who deserves it.

I initially thought the mafia deserved it because they've only lost due to kills.

3J after getting outed? I can live with that.

Yeah MM! 3J wants his win.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:Is MM even a civilian? There's been no conclusive evidence of that.
I would have killed you a while ago if I had that ability.

You told me in another thread you've never killed me.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:Is MM even a civilian? There's been no conclusive evidence of that.
I don't think there's conclusive evidence of it, no. I think he looks more like a civilian than DrWilgy though. I'd also rather lose to him if I have to lose because he's given a hell of an effort.

Well, he's here now.

And I agree with you. I could lose to you or MM. Losing to somebody who barely played, eh.

(I just heard a hundred people groan from the spectator's gallery)

Is MM even a civilian? There's been no conclusive evidence of that.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Marmot's vote probably belongs to you anyway.
I don't know what that means.
I think he'd follow your vote because he trusts you considerably more than either Wilgy or I if he is able to check in.

Then he's not reading my most recent posts.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Marmot's vote probably belongs to you anyway.

I don't know what that means.

If Wilgy votes, that is to say.

I've already said what I think Jay. MM said he wasn't likely to move his vote and if Wilgy does it's going to be on you.

Because you're the serial killer, you know.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Jesus H. Christ.

I thought that was funny.

I thought the SK was dead.

I will be cooking soon.

While I don't believe you, Jay, here is where my head is:

A poster I done seen spells out in no uncertain terms that this is it.

Regardless of what I think about you, there is a faint but existent possibility that the serial killer is dead. There is no possibility that the last Mafia member is dead.

So even if you get lynched and turn out to be the serial killer, so what? Mafia gone mafia.

If Wilgy is bad, then he wins without doing much of anything today. I don't care for that. There are four people left, and he's leaving us to do the heavy lifting. I thought birdwithteeth was good though, and Dom even tried to get him lynched (if we assume Dom was Sleep). But that might be bird knowing he wouldn't be around much and him giving his teammate the green light to toss him in front of the Greyhound.

If MM is bad, then I think he played a solid game, and even took some unnecessary risks to get there (he defended me against you, for example).

If you are the last mafia, then we file that under "Oh, well."

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Again -- do you really believe that my baddie strategy is to keep you alive and change your mind?

I keep you around all the time.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:If I'm a baddie, you're dead today Epi. There's no need to employ these ruses. When you're dead you can't vote for me.

If people suspect that I killed you, it's just one more thing on the suspicion pile. It's speculative and inconclusive. That's not something I'd care about; I'd leave myself in a LyLo with people who I think can be lynched instead of me without a Herculean effort by me. You're not that guy. In this scenario I am forced to either get you lynched or get you to change your mind about me -- perhaps the two most difficult tasks there are right now. That's not a winning play and I don't put myself in that position deliberately.

But if I think the role is gone, then you're cleared. No Herculean effort required. No effort at all. I recall how frustrated you were with me that I wouldn't come around to the notion that the serial killer was dead. Even reading your posts now makes sense in that regard.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:No you don't.
I do. You're not even trying.
Trying to do what?
Solve the game. Do something. Do anything. You're just giving me this bullshit retort without acknowledging anything I have to say.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Moreover, I don't believe that you really believe your "good reasons not to lynch people" are the damned Gospel. People disagree. That's weak fucking sauce. You don't like when your reads are ignored? You've ignored every single post I've made since Day 5. You're not thinking about my alignment at all. You already decided.

That's not how a civilian operates, not even you. You're showing no interest in exploration of other angles. You're showing no concern about the other two.

"Not how a civilian operates, not even you" were your words. Yes, that's how I operate (especially after spending all day moving furniture and crap).

I've been thinking about sig though.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:If you don't think the SK is alive, then who do you think he was? The only options are Quin, Lorab, and sig.
If the SK is dead, it was sig. He was absent too, but also had sporadic log-ins to facilitate sending in kills.

If the SK was sig, then sig would still have been able to submit a kill. There was no kill from the SK Night 8. You could say sig missed his Night action, but I don't see that being the case if you have to raise the idea that sig had "sporadic log-ins to facilitate sending in kills." sig is very much active here the past few days, more than he was before because of his school being in session.

If the serial killer is dead, it has to be Lorab or Quin. But Lorab and Quin had those twin rainbow posts, and I don't believe I have ever seen Lorab do a rainbow before. I don't think anybody believes either of them are serial killers.

The serial killer is still alive.

If 3J is in fact the serial killer, then I might have to believe his master plan was to not kill me so he could say "Look, I didn't kill Epignosis!" and hope that's good enough to get him through the next Day. However, Dom was a vocal opponent of 3J's too.

Howyevah, there was no serial killer activity Night 8 as far as I can tell. Sleep is dead (and couldn't block anyway) and so is Static, so I am inclined to believe there was no block in play. If there was a block in play, I would expect the blocker to string the serial killer up by his toenails. There is no toenail stringing going on right now, sadly. If there was a protector's hand in this, we would see the protector giving somebody the thumbs up, and I ain't seeing any thumbs.

The only conceivable alternative is that 3J deliberately withheld his kill so that, going into Day 9, the rest of us would have to entertain the idea that the serial killer was killed. Two evenings ago, 3J was pretty mad at me for voting him and not "thinking(!!!!!!!)," so perhaps he was angry that I didn't fall for his ruse.

But if there was no ruse, then there is no serial killer anymore.

Hi Trice.

One thing going on in my mind is that even if I believe 3J is the serial killer, the mafia don't (or they believe they cannot Night kill him or don't want to take a chance on that kill failing). The Mafia have been getting obliterated by Night kills, not lynches. When I'm bad, my goal is to eliminate all other kills from play so that I am the one in control of the Night. That is something to chew on.

I have a few things I have to process (including pizza).

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
The game will be over before Christmas.

Not for Rico.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:If you don't think the SK is alive, then who do you think he was? The only options are Quin, Lorab, and sig.
If the SK is dead, it was sig. He was absent too, but also had sporadic log-ins to facilitate sending in kills.
And you believe Trice was trolling?
"Trolling" is not what I'd call it. I do think there was strategic value in it.
Talk me through that strategy, if you please.
I've already done this. Anticipatory play to serve as a recruiting signal and to attach himself to the wrong person when his role is publicized.

I don't see how that strategy works though. Say Trice doesn't get lynched and his role isn't revealed...how does that get him recruited?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Not even on The Syndicate can I recall a game where a 1v1 scenario including a civilian doesn't end the game immediately except where extra votes or lynch protections exist. That exception applies to Talking Heads and Mad Max.

This is Ricochet you're dealing with. I make no assumptions.

MM, you voted birdwithteeth11 / Wilgy a few times in the past. What makes 3K a better lynch at this stage than Wilgy?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:If you don't think the SK is alive, then who do you think he was? The only options are Quin, Lorab, and sig.
If the SK is dead, it was sig. He was absent too, but also had sporadic log-ins to facilitate sending in kills.
And you believe Trice was trolling?
"Trolling" is not what I'd call it. I do think there was strategic value in it.

Talk me through that strategy, if you please.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Also, 1v1 with a civilian alive means the control of the lynch has been lost. That's game over in any scenario where there aren't extra votes or lynch protections. Tied tallies result in coin flips, 1v1 isn't a "tied tally", it's an endgame.

That's in Kansas. You ain't in Kansas anymore.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:If you don't think the SK is alive, then who do you think he was? The only options are Quin, Lorab, and sig.
If the SK is dead, it was sig. He was absent too, but also had sporadic log-ins to facilitate sending in kills.

And you believe Trice was trolling?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Can anyone see a flaw in that logic or something I'm missing? There are a ton of dynamics to these roles.

I've operated under the belief that 1v1 would result a coin flip as stated in the rules.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:What do you think about the SK? Do you think it's still alive?
Epi looks cleared. It's not me. Your self-vote implies you see my reasoning and are opting for sacrifice, and if you were the SK I don't think you'd be so quick to respond that way. Wilgy's slot has been absent and would have missed a kill.

It's either you employing master WIFOM or the SK is just dead. I lean to the latter.
Questions for you.

1) I was quick to self-vote (as I often am). You don't think the SK is still alive, or you think that it's more likely that it's dead, so why would my self-vote be useful?

2) If you are a civilian, why would you not offer yourself up for a lynch first?
1) Your mindset is not the same as my mindset. Your action implies you believe the SK is alive. Do you not?

2) I don't think the SK is alive, meaning the lynch must be Mladic. I think that's Wilgy.

If you don't think the SK is alive, then who do you think he was? The only options are Quin, Lorab, and sig.

Question for 3J: Who wouldn't kill me in this scenario? Why does this qualm uniquely pertain to you?

I have my office now. I can consider all sides to all arguments and am willing to do that, although my interactions will be sporadic given that there is still much for me to do.

I must retire.

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