The Syndicate

Long Con wrote:
"I oppose any plan that forces, or attempts to force, people to do things they don't want to do, like voting for them to push them to make a statement. That's bullying, and it is NOT civvie, imo." Like this statement, for example. You try to equate "bullying" with having a baddie role in the game, and that's just not realistic. Baddies can act nice and sweet, and Civvies can act abrasive and threatening. My point is that trying to draw a connection between an attitude like that, and a person's alignment, is as wise as assuming that the Civvies are all in the first half of alphabetical order of player names. Because it is based on your personal ideals of how the heroes of the story should act, it is roleplaying.

Long Con wrote:That idiom applies to the idea of having good sportsmanship in a game, not the idea of purposely viewing the game in a personal way that is separate from the stated Win Conditions. I could get a hit in baseball and dance and twirl around the bases instead of running, and that would be playing the game as myself, for myself. (Assuming I like that kind of thing.) Guess what though - the rest of the team would probably not appreciate it at all. I could just shrug and say "I gotta be me, sorry if it upsets you", but it wouldn't change a damn thing about what the rest of the team thinks about my dancing. Mafia is a team game, not a solo one... aside from Indy roles and such.

Long Con wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Long Con, I felt your reasoning for interfering with the process DrumBeats had laid out looked more like a cheap excuse to interfere than an honest concern -- even if it might have been "logical" on the surface. Even baddies are logical sometimes, especially me.

All I expect is that, when I put something forward that is undeniably logical, that my fellow logic-appreciating players acknowledge that the logical move is usually the smarter move. I don't think that's too much to ask. Instead, I mostly got ignored, despite laying out in extremely simple terms why it was smarter to protect ourselves. If DrumBeats' plan had ended up being a baddie thing, then I would have practically been the only one to attempt to stop him, and he would have been gloating at the end of the game that everyone was a fool to follow along with his plan. It's pure luck that it didn't end up that way - I prefer to tone down the 'luck' and go with ideas that eliminate the possibility of baddie control. I guess not everyone feels the same way.

rabbit8 wrote:

ObscureAllure wrote:Go for it. Lynch me. You guys have been so blindly led by the Mafia (who aren't even effin CYLONS! for the most part!) to kill all the cylons. I've been literally harping on it since the big inning of the game, I don't know how much more vocal I can be with out getting punished again. You're hunting the WEONG PEOPLE!!!! You want to kill all the good cylons while the bad humans win the game? Go for it.

PS: my vote for polo wasn't weird, it was annoyance for something he did to me. DERPPPPPPPPP

Lol, ok.

Oa

ObscureAllure wrote:Go for it. Lynch me. You guys have been so blindly led by the Mafia (who aren't even effin CYLONS! for the most part!) to kill all the cylons. I've been literally harping on it since the big inning of the game, I don't know how much more vocal I can be with out getting punished again. You're hunting the WEONG PEOPLE!!!! You want to kill all the good cylons while the bad humans win the game? Go for it.

PS: my vote for polo wasn't weird, it was annoyance for something he did to me. DERPPPPPPPPP

ObscureAllure wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:I can support a JJJ lynch tomorrow.

I could go for a Wigly lynch tomorrow.

Ricochet wrote:

rabbit8 wrote:

Ricochet wrote:

rabbit8 wrote:

Ricochet wrote:I feel the assumption that JJJ might be bad needs to pass the test of explaining how could JJJ have initiated and carried nutella's hunt all the way through on Day Two.

Two mafia factions.

Comprised of?

Are you just being obtuse? Or do you want me to try to figure out how Golden would split the cylons/bad humans?

Just split the bad players into two mafia groups, throw in some indy roles and go!

I'm not obtuse, I just wouldn't mind your prognostication on how two teams might be formed.

In all fairness, I could actually agree that this could be one way of judging things differently.

Others, however, have exclaimed, after Glor's lynch, that Cavil and Doral are the only ones left to go, so...

Or recruitment. One should not forget that possibility.

rabbit8 wrote:

Ricochet wrote:

rabbit8 wrote:

Ricochet wrote:I feel the assumption that JJJ might be bad needs to pass the test of explaining how could JJJ have initiated and carried nutella's hunt all the way through on Day Two.

Or throw someone under the bus? Is this not done anymore?

I think two mafia teams in this size games makes more sense though.

Save for a ping from Scotty, JJJ's case bloomed into a wagon. If we're talking bus, we're talking The King of Bus Mountain here.

I have done this to my team before. I think they told me they hated me......

I think I was on one of those teams.

ObscureAllure wrote:So say we all. Hmmm. Well that was... Interesting. Almost like he knew he was going to die.

I can't read Rabbit for shit, never have been able to. However, I feel very confident that Zebra was recruited right before she left based on a sudden change in her approach, suspicions, and some
Of her comments. That will likely be my vote, but we shall see.

I'm still suspicious of bea, and like the whispers I am also shocked she's still
Alive for how long she's been prime.

I don't know what to think of Dex's comment to me. Part of me feels like he was legitly trying to give a heads up, part of me feels like it was super convienent that he posts that just before the NK.

ObscureAllure wrote:

Matt wrote:

ObscureAllure wrote:I would love to see actual IN GAME evidence on any of the people you suspect for once. Not saying I agree or disagree with any of your suspish, just would really love to see something other than Meta or outside factors being your evidence.

Hey!

You never answered me...

Matt wrote:

ObscureAllure wrote:

Also, I don't know what Matt knows you are talking about.

Oh, he does. Trust me. He's playing dumb now but he let it slip earlier. He knows exactly why I thought what I did about LC. The fact that it didn't bring him to think the same says a lot about Matt.

So this has been really bugging me.

Do me a favor. You don't have to point it out, but if you could just link me to the post itself, I will examine it in it's entirety to try to understand what you think I "let slip earlier".

I'm totally curious as to what you think I know about which I almost certainly do not know.

But first, do you believe recruitment is likely or unlikely for this game?

ObscureAllure wrote:MATT

DO YOU
THINK
RECRUITMENT
IS VERY LIKELY
IN THIS
GAME?!

ObscureAllure wrote:Yes, Polo, you literally said that in the post you quoted. You also never got punished for your 100% certain without thread evidence crap. I think either you're with Cavil and that was a set up OR you're on a human Mafia team because I don't think you're the civvie role checker and I don't think there's two.. Either way...

Vote: Polo

ObscureAllure wrote:

Polo wrote:

ObscureAllure wrote:

Polo wrote:

ObscureAllure wrote:Either SVS or Polo is bad. Frankly, the fact that Polo is saying that he's 100% sure without posting evidence as to why and ISNT getting punished makes me think he's full of shit. I said something way less confirmative and got punished for it. If tomorrow is Polo vs SVS, I guess we will find out which one.

I'm still waiting on someone to tell me why we aren't lynching confirmed Cylon Wigly?!?? One in three (or more) chance of being bad as opposed to the unknown player who is about 2 in three chance of being civvie!?!


Linki: WIGLY, sig (although I think I may have found an alternative situation in my reread here so I reserve the right to remove), rabbit (I think Zebra was recruited), Matt, and either Polo or SVS

Can you assure me that if I'm NK'd tonight you will vote for S~V~S tomorrow?

No? Because if she isn't Mafia, the Mafia would just NK you to set her up? And if she is Mafia, why would she NK you after you've shouted her name for days with out any evidence (and that's making you look bad?) [wifom]I would just continue letting you dig your own grave[/wifom]

There's also the chance that she could NK me in order to make people believe I was just a conspiracy theorist and then everyone ignores that she's mafia and she escapes unscathed. Is this a possibility you ignore?

Totally possible. I just think it's unlikely. SVS is a very straight forward player. She typically plays to her gut and emotions, and fights with every breath for what she believes or what she wants people to believe that she believes. However, I've never known her to backdoor people or play the "if I kill him" approach. If anything, I'd say she usually goes for low posters or confirmed townies when she night kills.

ObscureAllure wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:OBSCUREALLURE

I'd like to know what you think of all this stuff.

Nothing on there is substantial. I was one of the first votes for Glor and you've coco eminently left out posts of me pushing for his lunch before he even had lots of votes. You're also leaving out my push of lunching his teammates. And I've already corrected the sig thing.


Go ISO the confirmed Cylon Wigly, if you please. Or are you just going to ignore that he's more likely to be bad than good? Because when he's bad and you see I've been screaming it since night two, maybe then you'll believe me.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:So say we all.

#1

Ricochet wrote:I think SVS's vote counts as major buss move, more than her replies. Third or so vote on nutella, I think, tying her with an LC wagon that was ahead. Perfect gesture to make us (*raises hand*) hardly bother with tinfoiling. As for her responses, yes, in hindsight, one could have questioned her picking a particular angle to suss on nutella and thus add weight to her vote. But it still felt like she was a solid voice for nutella's lynch, during those EoD proceedings.

This is why bussing works. Trivial maneuvers are perceived as impossible and players coast. I don't think S~V~S would have ever gone after nutella on Day 2 if she hadn't been forced into that position by my case and Silverwolf's rage. If you don't agree, fine whatever. It's speculation.

Ricochet wrote:Nothing clear you. How controversial was it for you to be read as town? I don't recall Epignosis' strong disbelief in your genuine efforts gaining more than a few mild reactions.

I was 4-4 in the gun to head reads, and my name has been sprinkled as suspect all over this thread. I have not been the consensus mega-town read that I often am in Mafia games. People be scared.

I don't expect people to literally clear me based on S~V~S's comments. Everyone gets sickly at the thought of that kind of thing. It's frightening. Ricochet especially is terrified of taking hard stances on anything. You asked me how I thought it reflected on me, and I answered you candidly. I don't really give a crap if people don't agree with my perception of myself, it's inherently a flawed line of thought.

rabbit8 wrote:SVS read me a civ all game. (I should have known....) I'm clear in your mind then, yes? Stupid assertion IMO. But I'm good and can't win with Cavil, doesn't mean you are. SVS reading civ on players does not make them civ, me included. I don't care how hard she read someone as civ.

I do think that reflects well on you, yes. At least off-hand. The highlighted portion is stating the obvious, no shit dude. I don't think S~V~S town reading someone = that person is town. It's a matter of context and situation. Whenever I finally get the energy and time to review the interactions I'll develop a clearer perspective of how you look.

rabbit8 wrote:When have you ever been the controversial civ? It was more controversial to accuse you TBH.

It's been controversial to accuse me and to trust me. That's the point. I've been a point of disagreement in the thread at large for most of the game, and S~V~S spilled the beans by confidently stating the correct answer. If other people aren't comfortable reading it that way I understand that, but I think I've been town as hell all game long anyway so I really don't care. People can read me how they read me, it's Mafia.

rabbit8 wrote:I'm mixed my bad read with the Bea SVS interactions and thought Bea was bad. SVS got me, much as I hate to admit it. Now I'm rethinking that maybe I was right about you being teamed up, just not with Bea but with SVS.

Confirmation bias.

Matt wrote:So Say We All

Cavil is on the poll. Do we let him slide on the assumption his team needs to die first or should we take a day to see if we can lynch him?

@GOLDAMA - Will we be told if our vote is worth 2 or 0 the following day?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Ricochet wrote:You didn't ask me, but I think it's a major blow in us threading between genuine and buss move in a very relevant lynch such as nutella's.

What do you think of such an unlikely buss move? What shall we make of you, then?

END OF POST #6

#6

I don't think S~V~S "majorly" bussed nutella -- I think she responded aggressively to the negative climate that Silverwolf and I created. If we hadn't done that there's probably no bus.

I'm biased, but I think S~V~S "reading" us so strongly should pretty much clear us -- especially since for a while reading me as town was relatively controversial. It's a textbook example of a baddie spewing town on others.

nutella wrote:sig, people familiar with the show have insisted that Athena is a good character, are you ignoring that info? like I get that maybe we shouldn't assume that it's reflected in the roles in this game, but it would make some sense. are you not willing to entertain that possibility?

lorab I am so jealous!!!!!

insertnamehere wrote:

rabbit8 wrote:

Golden wrote:
Epignosis has been lynched. He was Sharon "Athena" Agathon.
Epignosis has been resurrected.

Golden wrote:
S~V~S has been lynched. She was John Cavil. Cavil-aligned, surprisingly.
John Cavil has been resurrected.

3.. So we don't have to go over this more. SVS is dead.

SVS is dead long live SVS

3

sig wrote:Post 2

Rabbit what do you mean? How does this prove anything?

Golden wrote:
Epignosis has been lynched. He was Sharon "Athena" Agathon.
Epignosis has been resurrected.

Golden wrote:
S~V~S has been lynched. She was John Cavil. Cavil-aligned, surprisingly.
John Cavil has been resurrected.

Polo wrote:Post #7:

We need to know how unlynchable is Cavil/S~V~S.

If she is in fact unlynchable, does this mean that if she's the most voted then the second most voted player gets lynched? Or does this mean that if S~V~S is the most voted player, no lynch will happen on that day?

Just in case, I believe we should lynch the confirmed Cylons.


Epignosis has been acting very mafioso since I started accusing S~V~S of being Cavil. ObscureAllure is an option too, and I don't discard Wilgy.

S~V~S wrote:#7

I am not going to try to save myself. I want to be lynched. Then maybe we will be a little less likely to rel on false info dumpers, hrh, sitting around gloating over their handiwork like a fucking ghoul.

S~V~S wrote:#6

@Polo

If I find out post game that this is based on any kind of perception of info, like your role had a block and you blocked someone and no one died, or a protection, or whatever, and you got false info becasue of it, I will never ever let you live it down. Info dumping, especially faux info dumping, is the thing I hate most. Fair play > winning.

So you are wrong, but if you think you are right for info related reasons, you basically alienated me and I hope it was worth it for you. Becasue proving people wrong is my favorite thing ever.

Polo wrote:Oh, I am so anxious for your lynch or, on worst case scenario, for endgame. I will be proven right.

G-Man wrote:

sig wrote:Post 5

I don't see an issue with Rico's opinion of Epi, and i think his outburst was genuine.

I'll be voting for Epi today for reasons previously stated.

Epi


Also I don't want to lynch one of the final five the first day they're back.

Aright, well I don't think we should be lynching Epi. #3 it is.

Vote = S~V~S

Linki: wrong you are, it seems. Hmmm? :P

This is post #6.

More linki: vote spread much?

G-Man wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Forgot the vote needs its own line.

Black Rock

And this vote puts me in a quandary. I'd like to stick to voting for one of my bad reads. Both BR and SVS are among those reads but they are my #4 and 3 respectively. We need to stop spreading the votes around, so voting my top two seem to be off the table. I just don't think BR is going to have much traction but I also want to spend some time reading up SVS's progression on bea in case that makes me feel any better or worse on her.

This is post #5.

Polo wrote:Post #4

S~V~S wrote:#5 yes polo, we get it, you think I am bad. Good luck with that you are wrong.

Pretty good at hiding, you were, John Cavil.

Soon see how evil you are, everyone will.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:#7

~~~

Revisiting my case against Black Rock.

The worst of it summarized here.

How do people feel about this right now?

S~V~S wrote:

rabbit8 wrote:

S~V~S wrote:I can't think of a time you did either.

Did he kill me and I forgot? All the murders blend in together....

S~V~S wrote:I can't think of a time you did either.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

rabbit8 wrote:Well.... I suck.

Sorry Bea.

How does this result influence your perspective of the game?

DrumBeats wrote:

S~V~S wrote:I am going to

*Vote Bea*

Her answers were scrambly & vague. The main other person I came into today suspecting, sig, dropped down my list with what I felt was not an answer a baddie would give about how he survived. Not totally off the list, but down it quite some ways.

Most of the game I felt pretty good about Jay, and rereading him made me get that feel back. His recent suspicion of rabbit got my back up somewhat since it seemed somewhat biased by general demeanor, which struck me as possibly opportunistic and not totally Jay, but like I said, reading back reminded me of why I trusted him in the first place.

Imo though Bea's answers were clearer than Rabbit's. Bea provided a full set of reads that mostly felt genuine, while Rabbit just kind of said people were scum with no reasoning. I'll agree that Bea's behavior is weird, but imo so has Rabbit. The fact that he will not provide any reasoning for his strong scumread on 3J and refuses to answer really strikes me the wrong way.

I will be voting for Rabbit8

Epignosis wrote:Voting rabbit8

I encourage this lynch. I believe he is bad.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

rabbit8 wrote:Because...... I think he is bad.

Okay. If you think I'm bad and you're willing to apply that read to any scenario, then it begs the question: what do you see in my posts that you find so suspicious? It has to be something you find suspicious at face value independent of context or circumstance, because you're calling me bad independent of context or circumstance.

Epignosis wrote:rabbit8 made the cardinal error of making the mechanics fit his "suspicion." Ricochet asked about how 3J could be bad if nutella is, and rabbit didn't disappoint. The first thing he came up with was two mafia teams.

rabbit8 wrote:

Ricochet wrote:I feel the assumption that JJJ might be bad needs to pass the test of explaining how could JJJ have initiated and carried nutella's hunt all the way through on Day Two.

Two mafia factions.

His first way to justify 3J being bad was two mafia actions, but he added this after:

rabbit8 wrote:

Ricochet wrote:I feel the assumption that JJJ might be bad needs to pass the test of explaining how could JJJ have initiated and carried nutella's hunt all the way through on Day Two.

Or throw someone under the bus? Is this not done anymore?

I think two mafia teams in this size games makes more sense though.

The fact that rabbit added "Is this not done anymore?" indicates that he is equally, if not more, at home with people throwing teammates under the bus, and that makes me think that, if he were expressing his natural thoughts, he would have mentioned this one first. He didn't. He speculated on the mechanics first, and added this as a second thought. However, he hedged with what he "thinks" makes more sense (i.e. two mafia teams).

Keep in mind that all of this is to solidify a 3J suspicion, and this is key. Follow me:

3J is bad.

How? He went against nutella!

It's simple. There are two mafia teams.

Okay, I follow. That means 3J is genuinely hunting the other team and caught nutella.

Or he threw somebody under the bus.

Okay, I get that. That means 3J is on the same team as nutella, and he ditched her.

But there are totally two teams.

++++

The existence of two mafia teams doesn't condemn 3J any more than it does anybody else. In fact, if anything, it works in 3J's favor, because he's likely not on the second team. But that doesn't matter, because 3J threw nutella under the bus (same team) even though there are, according to rabbit8, two teams!

rabbit8's accusation of 3J is based on two conflicting scenarios, and I don't think he believes either. He's full of shit.

Your move.

Ricochet wrote:I feel the assumption that JJJ might be bad needs to pass the test of explaining how could JJJ have initiated and carried nutella's hunt all the way through on Day Two.

rabbit8 wrote:

Ricochet wrote:I feel the assumption that JJJ might be bad needs to pass the test of explaining how could JJJ have initiated and carried nutella's hunt all the way through on Day Two.

Two mafia factions.

rabbit8 wrote:

Ricochet wrote:I feel the assumption that JJJ might be bad needs to pass the test of explaining how could JJJ have initiated and carried nutella's hunt all the way through on Day Two.

Or throw someone under the bus? Is this not done anymore?

I think two mafia teams in this size games makes more sense though.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:So say we all.

I don't have time for much more than that at the moment. My read on rabbit8:

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

bea wrote:

rabbit8 wrote:Good for you? Seems pointless to try to get a reaction from someone you think is goods. But hey, go for it.

I want Bea lynched and I think you're bad. Seems like those two things go hand in hand. Your read on Glorf is 100% irrelevant. Your defense of Bea is not.

Only catch here is you are going to have to reevaluate everything once I flip the way I say I'm going to. Cuz I ain't the baddie you are looking for.

Epignosis wrote:So say we all!

If I voted right now, it would be for rabbit8.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

rabbit8 wrote:LOL, that's not good for me. You caught me.

Epignosis just tore this guy in half and his only response is this crap. There's no townie in this man's blood.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

rabbit8 wrote:Good for you? Seems pointless to try to get a reaction from someone you think is goods. But hey, go for it.

I want Bea lynched and I think you're bad. Seems like those two things go hand in hand. Your read on Glorf is 100% irrelevant. Your defense of Bea is not.

You're the one that connected the two. You literally said this:

rabbit8 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: Overall this is a very mixed bag. I will admit though that the positive points I made are moving me more than the negative and that my suspicion of bea has decreased through this exercise. That is of course reliant upon the notion that Glorfindel was on a baddie team and knew who his team mates were, which is itself speculative.

You did that already with Glorf? How did that work out?

I stated that my read on bea had softened, you pooh-poohed that based upon my read on Glorfindel. You acknowledge that the Glorf read is irrelevant, so why did you do this? Let me show you what you did:

"You were wrong about Glorf, JJJ. That means your reads suck and nobody should care what you say about bea."

Dex wrote:I have a bad feeling about tonight, so just a couple of thoughts in case I don't make it.

ObbsAll, I know we haven't seen eye to eye in this game and we don't know each other, but I'd like you to please consider that when I said I was certain that LC was Cain he was, and that when I said I was certain the Glorfindel was a Cavil toaster he was. I am certain Wilgy is a civ toaster. Please just consider it.

I get the current anti-Rabbit trend, but I recall for most of the game that role was Silverwolfs, and she was one of my strongest civ reads.

Strongest civ reads: Epi, S~V~S, Matt.

Strongest mafia reads: Bea, Rico, BR.

If I a NKed, to those responsible, I say Hi!