The Syndicate

Glorfindel, I wish I had gotten to play with you longer. Thank you so much for protecting me the night you got killed (boo hoo).

Long Con, who would you have voted for if you'd had time to vote in the end. You said you were saving it.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:06 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:46 pm Speedchuck
DFaraday
DrWilgy
Timmer

Scum legacy.

Look basically I'm pretty good at this and you all should listen to me more.

Lots to be learned about scum Epignosis here too. As a short game this is one that really should be studied for meta. It's glorious. I have some really nice juice on Sloonei to use now. Juicy.

Is there a difference between Sloonei's civ game and his bad game? It doesn't seem like it.

Also Epi you were outstanding.

Oh and by the way one of the big reasons I thought rabbit was bad was he claimed Bilbo and that was my role. I just didn't know if it would be wise to come right out and say that.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:29 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:28 pm

juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:22 pm One thing I learned from this is I should vote my gut if all else fails even if I don't have a good reason. I didn't vote Elo because I didn't feel like I had a good justification. But justification be damned I should have just voted.

I refuse to learn anything from this game.

Learn that Long Con is a good player. In this last phase, he called the mafia team.

Yeah well he was gonna vote for me until I told him to tell me who was bad NOT including me. He is a good player though, has tricked me before which is why I couldn't totally discount the fact that he was bad.

oh I see speed that makes sense.

One thing I learned from this is I should vote my gut if all else fails even if I don't have a good reason. I didn't vote Elo because I didn't feel like I had a good justification. But justification be damned I should have just voted.

Yeah Jack I agree. I wanted to vote Elo but should have gotten my vote in before Epi voted for you. In the end though the most we could hope for without INH was a tie.

LC just curious why didn't you vote?

Yes good game. And good to know Jack is good - the vote the way it was set up was a no win. It looks like we had no hope without INH.

So speed was bad, oh well. I'm a bad judge of character.

Dang I don't see Marmot

So does that mean he was good?

Oh shit
Epi hammered
so never mind
I guess we wait now

Jack it was really his reaction that he was not bad after it looked like all of us were going to vote for him. It just felt genuine. But looking at this board, if I don't hammer we lose anyway cause we'll have no hammer and they'll just kill one of us tonight.

I guess though if we don't hammer now the mafia just kills one of us tonight and game over.

LC if you've got a third option please put it up there.

Damn I really don't want to vote Jack.

Well, jack and epi didn't agree so jack voted lc and epi voted jack.

I'm just saying that Elo because you are wanting to go to bed.

Jack has already voted for LC.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:20 pm

juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:20 pm What does everyone think of Elo? Is she bad in your book (whoever the "you" is who answers this)?

I don't have a reason to think Elohcin is a civilian.

I don't have a reason to suspect her either.

Conversations about this would be good.

I'm trying to POE my way out of this mess. I've got INH and me and speed as sure. Then the bubble group: you and jack and LC. That leaves out Elo. But I don't have anything specific to point to that she's bad, I just don't have anything that says strong good either. Whereas with my bubble group I have strong things I see as positives: LC's point about Jack, your in depth analyses, LC's genuine sounding pleas. So thats why I ask what others are thinking about Elo. I wish more people would come on, not that you aren't good its just I think we need everyone.

linki holy shit

What does everyone think of Elo? Is she bad in your book (whoever the "you" is who answers this)?

I'd like to know what INH is thinking. Where are you INH, you're so quiet.

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:13 pm

juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:04 pm Ok LC I do see what you mean on the Jack issue. But on speed, what about Jack's point re:what is in it for a bad speed to back off of you? Surely if he's bad it's in his best interest to just go ahead with your lynch.

I get that, but LITERALLY at least one of you or speed are guaranteed to be bad. So those kinds of arguments are moot. Baddies do things to look Civvie. One of the Long Con back-offers is doing that. Case closed.

There is no need to be so hostile, I'm just asking for help to work through this. I want to believe you.

Ok LC I do see what you mean on the Jack issue. But on speed, what about Jack's point re:what is in it for a bad speed to back off of you? Surely if he's bad it's in his best interest to just go ahead with your lynch.

LC let me look up Jack's plea and see if I agree with your argument there.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:03 am

juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:53 am

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:06 am Here's the other problem.

If LC is town, and I'm town and INH is town, only one of Juliets and Speedchuck can possibly be town. So why are two of you trying to save him? He'd be the obvious sacrifice for the easy win. Why turn back?

Maybe Juliets and/or Speedchuck is town and having legit doubts on LC. But the three of you? You can't all be town.

I am having serious doubts about LC and speed seems to be having serious doubts as well. So where does that leave me? With a bad INH? I don't really like that either, his Frodo claim sounded legit, though I don't know INH's game very well. (All I remember is that in one game he said he invented an algorithm or something to tell positively if people were bad which was hilarious.).

Well, tomorrow is another day.

If INH was bad, he'd have been counterclaimed.

For instance, say I was the real Frodo. I'd know that an INH lynch is a guaranteed scum lynch. I'd be all over that. Additionally, the longer INH's claim goes uncontested, the more likely people are to believe him over me when it comes down to it so I should counterclaim immediately.

But nobody counterclaimed. Cause INH is town.

I'm more okay with an LC lynch by the minute.

Ah right someone would have counterclaimed because we know all the flips not just the lynches so I can count on INH to be Frodo. That's at least one person I can count on in this game.

Long Con, tell me again who is bad and why and it better not be me because just like in GOC I am good. If I remember correctly the last time you named baddies you named Epi, speed and someone else along with me. Even if you just pick one person tell me again who is bad but most importantly why. Remember, I have not played this whole game and I haven't completely read everyone so as bea would say, pretend I'm 5 and explain it to me. If you are not bad I need to believe in others who are.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:06 am Here's the other problem.

If LC is town, and I'm town and INH is town, only one of Juliets and Speedchuck can possibly be town. So why are two of you trying to save him? He'd be the obvious sacrifice for the easy win. Why turn back?

Maybe Juliets and/or Speedchuck is town and having legit doubts on LC. But the three of you? You can't all be town.

I am having serious doubts about LC and speed seems to be having serious doubts as well. So where does that leave me? With a bad INH? I don't really like that either, his Frodo claim sounded legit, though I don't know INH's game very well. (All I remember is that in one game he said he invented an algorithm or something to tell positively if people were bad which was hilarious.).

Well, tomorrow is another day.

Long Con wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:08 pm Oh my God, you people are all hilarious. Hilarious! Just vote me already Jesus Christ you're not actually discussing doing anything but that. Good game baddies.

Gah, this sounds sincere. Am I crazy?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:33 pm

juliets wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:30 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:23 pm I still don't understand who said what in that mess that you guys were posting. I'm ignoring it. If it's important, it should be restated in a way that I can tell who is saying what.

I think mine and Elo's posts are easy enough to understand but LC's is so convoluted I don't know that I can clarify it well. It appears to me that he didn't read the original posts well which makes me think he was just looking for something to jump on. When I get to that part I'll see what I can do. I have to take a break now though.

Who are you thinking of voting for?

I'm thinking of voting LC but I want to take a last look at his most recent posts.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:23 pm I still don't understand who said what in that mess that you guys were posting. I'm ignoring it. If it's important, it should be restated in a way that I can tell who is saying what.

I think mine and Elo's posts are easy enough to understand but LC's is so convoluted I don't know that I can clarify it well. It appears to me that he didn't read the original posts well which makes me think he was just looking for something to jump on. When I get to that part I'll see what I can do. I have to take a break now though.

I really don't have anything to add to Epi's analysis of Elo and agree that though some of it looks teammate indicative with LC, some of it doesn't. I don't think I can conclusively say she is bad or bad with LC.

What strikes me in particular though is more about LC and that crazy business where he quoted mine and Elo's posts and said we said things we didn't say. I guess I should just go on to LC at this point. I'll concentrate on his latest posts and just review what I already wrote about his earlier posts.

timmer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:27 pm Did a read through. Not much stands out mostly becauseIve lost touch with peoples usual m.o. Not a fan of Long Cons posts but the attention he's getting feels a bit easy. Holding my vote for now.

If timmer is bad, LC could be his baddiemate and he's leaving his options open for bussing him.

timmer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:28 am I'd say the votes on LC seemed a bit easy, but then so did LC's own vote, it's typical Day 1 stuff. I'll mostly be watching for people making too much of a mountain out of a day 1 molehill, that's generally what constitutes my early pings.

timmer seems to be insinuating that people voting or talking about voting LC are making a day 1 mountain out of a molehill. Is he defending LC or is this something he would never say if they are teammates.

He makes one other post that mentions Long Con that Epi pointed out in his analysis.

He spends the majority of the rest of his posts talking about DFaraday, voting him, why he's voting him, and responding to him. After reading this I really can't see how people might think timmer and Faraday were bad together. I wonder if his vote for Faraday was in part an attempt to save LC.

I don't see much else going on in timmer's posts.

I'll take a look at Elo and then go back to LC for another look since I see people are declaring they can vote for him.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:38 pm I'm willing to believe INH. At this juncture, if the 'real' Frodo is somewhere else in the game, they should counterclaim even at the risk of the ring. Otherwise we lose because INH's gambit townfirms him and goes uncontested.

Getting a strong town vibe from Jack. Honestly, I have been ever since the emojis in early game. I've been scum with Jack, and that doesn't seem like scum jack.

LC, motive/attitude-wise, I could go either way with. Either he's town and frustrated about being suspected all game, or he's scum that has staved off the lynch through passivity and is now letting things go as they may since he has two teammates left and town is stuck in LYLO permanently.
That's why I don't listen to emotive arguments. They're full of WIFOM.
I feel like I see a lack of genuine effort, but hey, I'm there too. Fire Emblem Mafia, Buffy, etc.
Biggest problem I have is that I don't like LC's positions on some of the reads and wagons he's participated in. The JoH pull-off, as of recent, doesn't seem genuine to me.
I should probably do some votal analysis.

Elohcin's one of those players I never know how to read, but she's seemed less uptight this game. I feel like that's an ongoing evolution of her non-alignment-indicative meta now, which is cool. She hasn't really pinged me.

Epi's one ping on me came from his tinfoil on the Frodo claim, but... considering when the claim came in, it could have been a scum claim. I thought about the reasons Frodo might not want to counterclaim, and how close mafia were to winning... I get the tinfoil knee-jerk reaction. The analysis since then has been informative and honest, focused on solving the game.
Epi's scum game is really freaking good, but I still feel pretty good about this iteration.

Juliets pinged me as town early in my replacement, but I can't seem to figure out why. I think that any read of her I had got dashed when she posted that confusing gibberish after INH's claim. I'm still trying to figure out what that might mean for her alignment. Could possibly be half of a scumslip that she overcompensated for and obfuscated.

Speedchuck
INH
JoH
Epi
Eloh
Juliets
LC

I guess. Bottom three for scum.

linki: ok

The gibberish was confusing because it made no sense whatsoever. Look at the time of day. I had just woken up and only half remembered the claim and even then thought it had been you not INH. How specifically does what I posted make me bad? I mean, make what I said make sense from a baddie perspective.

Epi's analysis on LC and timmer/Elo is interesting. My immediate reaction to timmer's posts when I subbed in was that timmer was good because a bad timmer is not talkative. I'm willing to take another look at that though since no one else can corroborate. Also as I think back on LC his reaction to my saying he should know my civ game because he's played with me enough seems a tad emotional and disingenuous. I conceded his point at the time but have been uneasy with the whole thing since. I'll take another look at him as well.

Despite what some people may think I am not bad. I can't think of any way I can prove it but rest assured if you lynch me this game is over. I'll weigh in again after I've done some research.

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:26 am Instant reaction: you don't like being caught as bad for what you consider bad reasons.

I said why I think you're bad when I said I think you're bad. I never said anything about DFaraday.

Your "instant reaction" sounds like something you would feel, not me. Without reasons that pertain to me I'm not going to spend any more time on this.

I am going to work now but will respond to reasons LC thinks I am bad when I get home from therapy.

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:11 am "You've played a million games with me, I would expect you to know my civ game by now." Well this makes me suspicious. There is not a single person I have ever played Mafia with that I expect myself to just "know" their Civ game and cross them off the list. I don't believe in that kind of thing, I think it's a fairy tale that baddies try to fall back on in order to coerce Civvies into feeling like they are not trying hard enough, or aren't being a good enough Old Mafia Friend. "Shame on you for not knowing me well enough to know I'm Civ right now!" NO THANK YOU.

You are bad. Describe for me what you imagined you might have seen that would make you say "A HA! Now I believe Sloonchuck killed Mac!" This whole "investigation" you claimed to do feels paper-thin and false to me.

I was looking for anything that would ping me - isn't that what most people would look for when they are looking at someone? As for my civ game it is generally recognizable by people who have played with me a lot but I'll take your point that you don't believe in that kind of thing. You still haven't
pointed to why you think I am bad, or what you saw in DF that made you think he was bad. I am most assuredly not bad.

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:39 am Ok...

ELOHCIN: [juliets] says there was not a lot of suspicion on him, so maybe a redirect? I see now that the 'redirect' is Eloh's idea; I took it to be more of what "she (juliets) says"

ELOHCIN: [juliets] says [Mac] thought Jack and chuck were bad. But I am not sure if I would put Jack or chuck as bad at this point. A set-up looks more likely.

Purple text seems to be Elohcin's words and thoughts. Green text is back to juliets' words, but I had assumed they were Elohcin's words, because they followed what I perceived as Elohcin's words.

Even now, reading it, it reads like Eloh's opinion. If she had that opinion, I would expect her to follow up on it... juliets, in her original quote, floats the idea that speedchuck and/or Jack killed Mac because Mac was suspicious of them, but instantly waves in the idea that the Mac kill was to set speedchuck up.

"I will need to read Sloonei and speed and hope that helps me determine if thats true or not." Can you link me to your post-Sloonchuck-read results, juliets?

Yes, I can link you to that post:

juliets wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:46 pm Where is everyone? I need some people to talk to about what's going on in this game. I jus read speedchuck and most of Sloonei (there were a few of sloonei's posts that made my eyes glaze over so I'll have to revisit them later) and I didn't see anything I would consider a mafia tell in either. So, at this point, I have to consider the Mac kill more of a set-up. What do the rest of you think? I will read Glorfindel and Long Con next because they voted for speed and hopefully I can see where my thinking might be wrong.

You seem to think I am bad. Can you explain why? You've played a million games with me, I would expect you to know my civ game by now.

Here is my original post about Mac/speed/Jack:

juliets wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:38 pm I just read through Mac to see if I could get an idea of why he was killed. It looks like he was under suspicion so it strikes me as an odd kill. He was suspicious of Sloonei/speedchuck and at the very end he called Jack bad. The speedchuck suspicion seemed the strongest but I have to wonder if he was killed to set speed up. I will need to read Sloonei and speed and hope that helps me determine if thats true or not. I see by reading up thats what Epi thinks has happened.

And here is Elo's ISO of me:

Elohcin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:15 pm I hate doing ISOs, they wear me out. So I am doing the best I can.

Juliets -
-Just replaced in as well, I've notices and already has 23 posts within a little over 4 hours. That's pretty nuts!
-First real topic of discussion was Mac being night-killed. She says there was not a lot of suspicion on him, so maybe a redirect? Or, she says he thought Jack and chuck were bad. But I am not sure if I would put Jack or chuck as bad at this point. A set-up looks more likely.
-At one point, she questions long cons motives for voting chuck.
-Engages Glorf on a vote matter.
-doesn't say much about timmer except that he is a quiet baddie from her memory, but that he was hurt somehow and had to replace out. I believe that was who I replaced
-votes wilgy because there is n better option in her opinion but she contemplates moving her vote and acts worried
-helpful to me as I replace in

overall, I think juliets seems civ.

I never said anything about a redirect so I'll wait for her answer on that part but if you look at the underlined parts you can see what I said and what she said I said.

Now that we have both quotes in front of us can you please make your point again LC?

linki

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:04 pm

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:53 pm Well that sucks. We are having terrible luck.

To Long Con: I never said anything about a re-direct. I never said I thought jack and speed were bad. I didn't gently point at Jack and speed. What do you mean question my motives? I'm confused by this whole section of your post about me.

If you didn't do that, then have ytou questioned Eloh about saying "She says there was not a lot of suspicion on him, so maybe a redirect? Or, she says he thought Jack and chuck were bad. "

This is from Elohcin's evaluation of your ISO, juliets. Why do you question it and deny everything when I say it, and ignore it when Eloh says it?

I didn't even see where she had said it. However, here in your partial quote of her she says "Or, she says he thought Jack and chuck were bad". That part is true - he did think Jack and speed were bad. That's not what you said Elo said I said. In other words, you either summarized what I said wrong or summarized what Elo said wrong. I think I'll just go back to the original post of Elo instead of depending on your summaries.

Elo, what did you see that made you think I was saying there was a redirect? Please quote me where it seems like I was saying that.

Well that sucks. We are having terrible luck.

To Long Con: I never said anything about a re-direct. I never said I thought jack and speed were bad. I didn't gently point at Jack and speed. What do you mean question my motives? I'm confused by this whole section of your post about me.

Ok time to summarize the points in Long Con's posts. Again, skip this if it doesn't help you. I'll make comments at the end.

- Reads nutella as bad due to her hot take that sloonei and ambray are scum mates
- Explains nutella's hip jargon sounds fake and makes him suspicious
- Epi uses sound logic, looks good
- Votes nutella
- Says he understand's nutella and Epi's points and says he changes his vote to sloonei because sloonei voted him for nutella vote(don't think he did)
- Doesn't feel pressure from the rabbit vote, if that's what rabbit intended
- Votes rabbit - LC says he does the pressure vote thing and gets called out for it
- Questions Jack on Mac looking wolf
- Minor ping on Jack for encouraging LC's suspicion of nutella
- Votes DF to try and save himself
- Says rabbit's "why not Epi" to DF doesn't make sense - says DF's vote did make sense
- Tells Kyle he could pursue a jack vote - says there are some cards he will eventually reveal - LC what were the cards?
- Calls Jack out for illegitimate quote
- Says maybe there was no Lynch because thats how Marmot handles ties - turns out to be true
- Presents case on Epi - says when he's civ he tried to provoke baddies into misconceptions about him but not doing it here - votes Epi
- Changes vote to Ambray over Mac who he thinks is civ, Ambray he thinks is neutral because Lynch is between those two
- Says he's voting Kyle then changes his vote to speed chuck
- Day 4 no activity and missed the vote
- Suggests maybe INH fake claimed, says Epi's rebuttal to LC's case is super weak and votes Epi

I didn't see nutella's jargon as being fake but then I'm in discord with her all the time so I see it there. I agree with his saying that rabbit's "why not Epi" is not really a good response to the DF vote, and I agree that DF's vote made sense. I would like to know what he meant when he told Kyle he would reveal his cards before Kyle got impatient. Don't know whether to say this is a civ or bad thing to say. He was correct that Marmot treated the tie as a no Lynch so his idea that this could be what happened comes across as sincere to me. All in all I don't see as many questionable things about LC as about rabbit, for example LC gives opinions even though they may be wrong as opposed to rabbit who doesn't give a lot of reasons for votes. There are still 3 mafia out there though so I may come back to LC later.

I'm going to have to talk out loud about rabbit to collect my thoughts. This is a summary of his ISO (feel free to skip to the bottom, it's a technique to distill my thoughts):

- Posts a series of posts at the beginning that have no meat
- Calls nutella verbose, sloonei a civ, says he votes for LC with no reason stated
- Says he didn't vote LC - I can't tell from the thread
- More posts that have no meat
- Calls to lynch Mac, maybe jokingly
- Calls nutella bad because she says DF's vote for rabbit makes sense
- Asks why DF didn't vote for Epi, calls DF's vote bullshit but says it's not AI but votes for him - I don't understand this
- Calls LC disingenuous for saying "what a crazy happenstance - I survived"
- Says again nutella's comment that DF's vote made sense didn't make sense
- Says he never took issue with DF's vote, his issue was with nutella - so why did he vote DF?
- Says LC and nutella should be lynched but turns around and says he didn't mean it about LC - wanted to get nutella to react
- Says nutella's comment was inauthentic
- Says nutella bad
- Didn't know novaselinever was playing
- Says Epi is lying for saying he expected Mac to go somewhere with his "red peak"
- Claims to be Bilbo
- Says he thought Sloonei was bad
- Does not vote Day 2
- Says Day 3 he will make a big "fuck you" post night 3 - he never does this
- Questions Mac on how INH is hiding - says he might change his vote to Kyle (has not said anything about Kyle)
- Says he was going to post a lot of "shit" but it just gets him lynched
- Votes Mac on Day 3
- No vote on Day 4
- Has not been back since mid-day Night 3

My thoughts: rabbit spent a good deal of time playing around in the thread at the beginning. Also, I disagree with rabbit's reason for suspecting nutella and find it odd that he kept on talking about this but never voted for her. I don't understand what was going on in his head. His vote for DF was odd to me because he made such a point that he had no problem with DF's vote, it was nutella's comment he had a problem with. So why vote DF? I don't believe his Bilbo claim. I also didn't really understand his Mac vote - I may have missed it but I didn't really see a reason. Promised to post some meat but then said he decided not to because he would just get lynched. Hasn't been seen or heard from since Night 3. Maybe theres a personal reason for this or maybe he's bad.

I'm going to go ahead and place a vote on rabbit but I'll take another look at Long Con. Maybe at Epi too.

I just got home and have some therapy and things to do and then I'm going to read rabbit and long con again. Will be back later.

Glorfindel wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:00 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:09 pm I'm a civilian. If I lose because Glorfindel and Long Con leave their votes on me, I'm going to be pissed.

THE BONDS ARE LOOSED!

Glorfindel, why did you vote for rabbit?

Long Con wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:59 pm I don't want you to be pissed, Epignosis. We will see about my vote in the next 24 hours.

Rabbit is also quiet in Fire Emblem Mafia.

Thanks LC that's good to know. I'm less nervous.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:23 pm Good to know.

I have no reason to view LC or DF as a civilian regardless.

Epi didn't you play Mountain mafia where Marmot had the same rule?

Also, what makes you think I am bad?

Elohcin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:15 pm I don't know rabbit all too well. Tell me why this makes you nervous.

Because in the past I have known a quiet rabbit to be a bad rabbit. I'm only thinking of one game though so the sample size is not significant - which is why it just makes me nervous instead of raising big red flags.

A quiet rabbit makes me nervous.