The Syndicate

Operator

Oh! And Rasputin is clean now, password reset and all.

Operator

Wow! Looks from the Chatzy like I may have had a shot of convincing Havok to sacrifice himself. That would have been insanely interesting.

Thanks for a freaking awesome game, Epi! I put so much into this. I just got more and more absorbed as it went on, which I think is the mark of a well-developed game.

Operator

Epignosis wrote:
Avalanche wrote:I don't understand why white queen and team won when they only had one horseman left alive.
The game had reached the point where you would not have the numbers to lynch Havok, whose vote was worth 3 and who decided ties. Additionally, Havok still had a -2 prize from Night 1.

I was actually going to try to convince Havok to vote himself (and break the tie for himself) today. I know it was an uphill battle, but I wish I had gotten a chance to try.

Hell of a game! Well played, S~V~S. Haha I knew that was you, and I thought it was hilarious that we didn't agree on a single thing all game. You tipped your hand on Havok, and I was trying like crazy to find a way to get him killed before the end. I even submitted that in the rebus game where we competed for extra powers. No dice, though.

Havok wrote:I caught so much hell for pointing that out about SW calling Polaris "he". and I was right!!!

Wow! I hadn't even noticed that! I died for that on Day 1 haha. Though to be fair, I was trying to be inflammatory to get votes (I was Bishop then). I was just a little too inflammatory, I guess.

Epignosis wrote:
Epignosis wrote:Nightcrawler / Simon / Sebastian Shaw

Spiral wrote:I have no clue why Magneto would do that as Hawkeye could just decimate their team.
Sebastian Shaw wrote:I'm going to vote for Banshee.
would you please play the game?

Mikhail Rasputin wrote:Also, I now think Shaw may be indy. He does not give a single fuck. Not a one.

This is hilarious! I feel a little bad for using language like that in a game with your son, though. So, uh, sorry.

Operator

White Queen wrote:Rasputin obviously has only been playing for a short time; outed baddies taunting the thread is a tradition with a long and honourable history

Assuming, of course, that you all are right about me.

I will continue to post.

And I am TRYING to irk you, to make you think, to annoy you and provoke you into being better opponents. Winning is not my primary reason for playing Mafia; fun, and the mental exercise it provides, is. I would prefer to lose to a wily enemy then win via just "surviving". I like a battle of wits; I think I can take all of you, and so far you are not proving me wrong

I will not mind losing if I lose for the right reasons.

So yeah, I plan on taunting through the weekend

Haha well ok then. When you're right you're right. I look forward to taking you down.

Operator

Idk. Depending on whether the baddies kill tonight, I may or may not have a better one. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Operator

Avalanche wrote:
Mikhail Rasputin wrote:So I checked the polls...why did Bullz lose that tie? And what was with your vote, Avalanche? I'd have voted Havok in a second if I had seen Bullz about to go down. Who lynches a TWICE-confirmed civ, ever??

Curious to hear from Spiral about what he's been thinking about yesterday, as well.
I voted for Bullz because he was acting weird and because I could see no reason for him to be rezzed without it being some sinister recruitment conspiracy. I have seen "confirmed civs" flip teams plenty of times in other games, and given the confused mess we're in, I though it was the best option available to me. For all we know, he could have been recruited and that fact was just not revealed after his lynch. It could still have been the right call.

I'm done lynching civs though. From now on I only vote for White Queen until she is dead.

Fair enough. Not the call I would have made, but you're right that it's still not entirely disproven that he wasn't recruited.

As for the White Queen thing, I totally sympathize, I'm just worried it'll play into her hands.

Operator

Actually, the more i think about it, the less I see wrong with trying to lynch Shaw again. If a civ is gonna die anyway during a lynch because there are no baddies left, there's very little reason not to make it a random one. And we do need discussion, and he's not giving us any. And it'd put Shadowcat's doubts to rest.

Voting AGAINST 24-hour days. Because we apparently need all the time we can get to arrive at useful conclusions.

Operator

So I checked the polls...why did Bullz lose that tie? And what was with your vote, Avalanche? I'd have voted Havok in a second if I had seen Bullz about to go down. Who lynches a TWICE-confirmed civ, ever??

Curious to hear from Spiral about what he's been thinking about yesterday, as well.

Operator

Jesus H. Christ, what is wrong with you people?? You lynch a TWICE-confirmed civ now? Dear God, we deserve to lose.

Havok wrote:Bullzeye is rezzed....there is no civvie explanation for it. And it just so happens to have occurred on the same night that Apocalypse makes his only 2 kills of the game.

Bullzeye has decided to follow White Queen today who we all think is Apocalypse and vote for me again today even after Professor X has vouched for me. Bullzeye claims it might just be Professor X's opinion. have you looked at Professor X's role, my dude?

I'm voting Bullzeye, too.

Linki: No indy reason for your rezz? You don't see Apocalypse's role with the big secret? I never said you did think you'd be back. If you were a civve and rezzed/recruited by Apocalypse how would you know beforehand?

What the heck was this, Havok? I said Apocalypse-allegiance theories put you next if Archangel died, but you jumped waaaay up to the top of my list with this bs. The sudden turnaround on Bullz in the last 30 minutes of the lynch looks shady as hell.

White Queen wrote:I see we're going with the "let's pretend this isn't happening" strategy as opposed to trying to actively DO something, lol. Or do you all agree with Avalanche that discussion is bad? If so, we are just gonna keep losing civs as you all come in in the last few hours before a lynch with random theories, and lynch yet another civ based on rather vague suppositions.

I don't plan on participating in the discussion, but seriously, you guys should be having one. Getting rid of Apocalypse is part of everyones win conditions. So it is do-able. You really just need to think out of the box. Which has not been happening, lol, like at all.

And this is where I stop working against my own interests. Seriously dudes (and I am fairly sure you are all dudes) this is no challenge at all. You need to try harder.

You are not being helpful, and your condescension is annoying me. I think it'd be doing everyone a favor if you did stop participating in discussions and just did your business.

Shadowcat wrote:Soooooo......yeah, I have no idea what happened with that lynch.

White Queen, no offense, but I'm not going to be paying any more attention to your posts. I believe you are Apocalypse, and I think you are trying to disseminate the thread with misinformation. I will be skipping right over the rest of your posts until you are dead.

I have some civ roles pegged for every role at this point, except for Shaw. I know some of you believe him to be civ. If there is any in-thread evidence or something I need to go back and read that could change my mind on this, I would be more than happy to examine it. Otherwise, I am going to be voting for him in every lynch from here on out until he dies. And White Queen next if he goes.

So unless anyone else has any ideas worth considering, those are the only 2 people I am looking at right now.

Shadowcat, I get where you're coming from. The in-thread evidence for Shaw being civ is he survived a lynch. Since it's already out there, I feel comfortable saying that the lynch read to me as if he were Nightcrawler. That's why I think he's civ, although others seem less convinced. As I said before, I'm not as against trying him as I was, but I'm still not super likely to vote him myself.

White Queen is claiming Apocalypse, and events more or less support her. So I think lynching her would not be a great idea either.

Operator

Btw, seems Spiral was silenced today. Interested to see what he has to say when he gets back.

And I would still LOVE White Queen to answer my earlier question.

Linki: I hope really really badly that WQ didn't rez Bullz as you seem to be implying.

Linki Again: I don't think you or Havok did explain why lynching Shaw would kill somebody. I suppose I missed it, or it went over my head. Mind clarifying?

Operator

Made it back!

Avalanche wrote:
Mikhail Rasputin wrote:But by process of elimination, Shadowcat cannot possibly be bad! I am against that notion.

Why do think lynching Shaw would kill us all? I don't get that idea at all from any of the roles.
I never said I thought Shadowcat was bad. I said I was leaning towards voting for Shadowcat. There exists a difference.

I don't think lynching Shaw will kill all of us, I think it will kill one of us. One of us who we don't want killed.

What do you mean by this???

Havok wrote: By process of elimination, I don't think anyone left is a brotherhood member. We can't lynch Apocalypse, so I think pursuing that would be a waste of time. The only think I have to vote on today is the idea that Apocalypse's win condition is tied to one of the remaining X-Men. I think Archangel fits that theory. I also think that voting for Spiral is a terrible idea. I'm honestly a little shocked that you want to lynch Spiral over Shadowcat. Literally the only thing that Shadowcat has done to show civvieness is the case on Exodus. That doesn't absolve her from being partnered with Apocalypse. I'm almost certain that Shadowcat is Archangel. Combine my theory with Shadowcat's recent thread behavior, and I feel pretty good about a Shadowcat lynch today.

vote: Shadowcat

OK, I understand where you're coming from now. So if Shadowcat is lynched and it doesn't affect Apocalypse, you're aware that that kinda sets you up to be the next one we try, right?

Operator

Leaving now. I'm voting Spiral for now, because I think if anyone's bad, he's most likely to be it. I may change it if I get back in time to, especially when I see White Queen's response to my question.

Operator

But by process of elimination, Shadowcat cannot possibly be bad! I am against that notion.

Why do think lynching Shaw would kill us all? I don't get that idea at all from any of the roles.

Operator

So White Queen, if you can talk about this and don't mind, why have you been overtly protecting Havok for weeks, if not because you need him alive to win?

I think that's a key question in this lynch.

Operator

Havok wrote: Yes, I know who Archangel is.

As for the big load of stool that White Queen just sharted into the thread, it would be unwise to listen to anything she has to say. If there are no brotherhood members left (And I really think that is the case) then that means thats Apocalypse is the only reason this game hasn't ended, and she is saying any and everything she can to help herself accomplish her win condition.

YES.

Thank you. Haha I am pretty glad we're on the same page now. I do think she's goading us, and playing to win.

Anyway, the way I see it, Avalanche basically summed up our options. I think it's still possible there's a baddie left, because baddies kill on odd nights. No kill last night means nothing; no kill tonight would be big. I just don't know who the baddie is. I think if we are gonna try to get a baddie, Spiral or Shaw are our best options. Others seem to be against Spiral, though, and I'm still leery on lynching Shaw because of his first lynch survival.

On the other hand, if he hasn't lost his powers, lynching Shaw wouldn't hurt us directly. It would give Apocalypse and any remaining baddies more time to kill, but I don't think he'd die at least.

I think lynching White Queen is a bad idea, because she seems to want us to (though that could be a ruse, too. But I'm getting WIFOM-y here). We could go for Archangel, but that puts us down a civ, or try Havok, though at this point I'm inclined to think he's civ too, so those things are basically equivalent to my mind.

I'm not in love with any of our options, really. And I have to leave in about 30 minutes and I'm not sure I'll be back before poll close.

Operator

I really feel like we could win today if we get this right; I just have no idea at all where to go.

Operator

White Queen wrote:Yeah, Rasputin, being real obvious about secret win conditions would be wicked smart of me (hypothetically, ofc)

OK then, you have been wanting to lynch Havoc on and off for ages, let's do that instead.

*changes vote*

I'm a little concerned by how...malleable...White Queen is being today. It's like she knows none of this matters or something.

Havok wrote:yeah, I thought about that, Mikhail, and I think it is possible. I don't think that it's me, though. I brought this up briefly many many days ago, but no one else seemed to notice it.

I was doing some reading at the Marvel wiki about Apocalypse. Apocalypse has used several characters over the years to do his bidding...by as you said augmenting their powers. Out of all the characters used, only 3 are roles in this game. Gambit, Wolverine, and Archangel.

So, if Apocalypse's win condition is related to keeping anyone else alive in the game, I would say that it is those 3. Gambit is dead. I'm 99% sure Wolverine is dead. Archangel is still alive.

Iirc (if someone would look this up it would be super nice) the original theory put forth was that Apocalypse got to choose 4 players or roles. Something to do with Apocalypse from the show using mutants against each other and calling them his Four Horsemen. If that is the case, I think thread behavior points to you.

However, your point is good as well. Do we know who Archangel is? I feel like we do because they died, but I can't remember who it was.

And finally, I don't really think it's entirely crazy to be looking at Shaw now. I do think it's unlikely he's bad because of the lynch survival, and I thought that lynching him when there were better candidates was a SUPER bad idea, but now I'm kind of at a loss to find anyone who seems more Brotherhood-y. Not saying I'll vote him, just that I won't necessarily push to lynch anyone who does anymore.

Operator

Also, I think White Queen voting herself is a super obvious ploy to waste our time so she can NK more of us and so we'll stop trying to eliminate her. So I don't think we should lynch her.

Operator

Havok wrote:Why, thank you, Professor X.

Either Shaw is bad or we have been wrong about Shadowcat....or both.

Bullzeye wrote:
Havok wrote:Why, thank you, Professor X.

Either Shaw is bad or we have been wrong about Shadowcat....or both.
We almost definitely aren't wrong about Shadowcat. I'm 99% sure Exodus was bad and that would mean she can't be.

Yeah, Shadowcat is out. I also think Shaw is good, personally. But there's got to be at least one Brotherhood left, right? Because none have died since Pyro killed someone, iirc. Although night actions would still go through if they were killed, so Banshee or Deadpool could've been Pyro. I also still think it's possible Spiral is bad.

If by some stroke of luck the baddies are all dead, it makes me think Apocalypse's win condition may be holding us back from victory. I have one idea regarding that. We never got confirmation that this was how the role worked, so put it in the "pretty far-out speculation" area:

Some surmised based on X-Men lore a few days ago, Apocalypse's role was to augment 4 players' or roles' powers and then to win by keeping them alive until the end (possibly without them knowing it). I think this is plausible, though we don't have any evidence of it yet besides a lack of denial, and, iirc, a few vague hints from White Queen (I can try to find and quote them if necessary).

If that is Apocalypse's role, and White Queen is Apocalypse, there's only 1 player that I think could fit the bill of her chosen player. She's stood by this player through thick and thin, sometimes totally irrationally from my point of view, and has gone hard after anyone expressing any kind of suspicion of him for days and days. I'm having trouble explaining it without there being something in it for her. I think White Queen might be protecting Havok to keep herself in the game.

Again, this is in the "pretty far out there" realm, and I think we're best advised to make sure there are no baddies left among us before pursuing it. Thoughts?

Operator

Spiral wrote:
Mikhail Rasputin wrote:
Spiral wrote:Mikhail why are you less concerned about finding baddies lately?
What are you talking about? That's a hell of a charge to make. I'm all about finding baddies, and always have been.
You've been far less talkative and conducive to discussion.

Bullshit. When I was talking a bunch, everyone was saying I was steering the lynches. Now I'm not doing enough to help? I realized I probably wasn't right about everything, so I'm trying to give others time to get their ideas heard. And I haven't had to build cases the past 2 days because I agreed with what was put forth.

Avalanche wrote:I am pretty disappointed about Longshot though. I really thought we were right about him.

Agreed.

Operator

Spiral wrote:Mikhail why are you less concerned about finding baddies lately?

What are you talking about? That's a hell of a charge to make. I'm all about finding baddies, and always have been.

Operator

Damn. RIP Longshot.

Yeah we've made a habit of that this game. It worked with Hawkeye. Not so much here.

Operator

Oh, and: I think Longshot voting Exodus fits with what I suspect about the baddies' play when Exodus was info-dumped against. Havok was saying he thought they'd defend Exodus tooth and nail, but we now pretty much know that wasn't the case. They basically let Exodus be killed, and I think it was because they were scared of the info. I think that sliding a vote onto a teammate at the end of that lynch is the smart thing to do as a baddie, if that's how you decided to play it. Leave yourself time to see how the lynch will go, show you're with the civvies.

Spiral didn't vote that day and Havok voted Mojo, so their votes that day don't totally exonerate them in my mind. Just saying Longshot's fits with how I think the baddies played that day.

Operator

Hmm.

First off, I wanna point out something I noticed. Spiral earlier tried to claim credit for the Marrow lynch and said I "stood in the way" of it by not voting that day. Turns out, he didn't vote that day either. He also hadn't helped lynch a single baddie, until Polaris (where I agree he deserves a good deal of credit for putting the first vote on her). But still: Pot, kettle.

Anyway, I reviewed Longshot, Havok, and Spiral's voting records. None of them had helped lynch a baddie, except Longshot voting Exodus (if you, like me, believe he was bad) toward the end of his lynch, until Havok and Spiral did with Polaris. Which is a pretty major plus for them imo.

Longshot's Spiral vote just looks SO BAD. I think the baddies are low on numbers. (Bullz established that they have a maximum of 3 members left iirc, and he and I both theorize that Magneto is dead as well.) I just can't see, given that scenario, how it makes sense for Spiral to vote a teammate that early in a lynch, or how it would make sense for Havok to put Polaris back in the lead so late. Longshot's vote makes perfect sense from a baddie perspective.

Interesting side note: neither Havok nor Spiral has voted for the same player more than once (unless you count non-votes by Spiral), and they've voted the same 6 of the past 8 days. Not sure it means anything, but it seemed interesting.

Anyway, I'm gonna vote for Longshot.

Operator

Spiral wrote:I would support a Longshot and a Havok vote. I just reviewed some earlier parts of the game and remembered that Mojo was after Havok, and I think I trust Mojo's judgment.

Longshot has been very antagonistic towards me based on....???? No clue.

I do not think you should think I am bad. I literally started the vote against polaris that ended up being me vs. polaris. Polaris was bad.

Yeah, I would say you're lowest on my list of 3 right now based on the Polaris lynch. Good job by the way, if I haven't said so yet.

I read Bullz's post earlier like "Finally, someone else sees that that was weird as hell." haha

Operator

White Queen wrote:
Mikhail Rasputin wrote:Geez! Bad night. RIP Elo, and RIPIYWG Deadpool and Banshee.

To Apocalypse: Are you killing civs on purpose now? Because iirc, someone posted something a bit back that makes it nearly impossible Banshee was bad. If you are, you should know we have a problem.

WB Bullz! Glad our mistake was fixed so quickly.

Bullzeye wrote:Woop! Thanks for the rezz! Hopefully my being back can make a difference. I have a theory actually about something: I think Magneto might be dead. We've lynched a few baddies but never seen his power come into play and I'd think especially this late in the game it should have done at least once. Either he's targeting people that have no impact at all on the lynch or he's not targeting anyone at all.
I actually mentioned this a few days ago, and it was dismissed as crazy. Even I thought it was overly optimistic at the time. But you're right, Magneto is supposed to be horrendously powerful, and we haven't seen him affect even one lynch. So I am also cautiously optimistic he's dead.
What made it almost impossible that Banshee was bad? Not something based on the roles, I hope. Do you also think Deadpool was civ? And I think Magneto was in play in the lynch that was switched to me. The careful manipulation of the numbers by all the last minute vote switching led me to that conclusion. Do you think otherwise?

Because roles don't have ANYTHING to do with mafia....

I honestly don't remember what it was, but I do remember thinking that Banshee must be civ. I can try looking it up if you're interested in knowing.

I was unsure on Deadpool, so I think it's possible Apocalypse did us a favor there. He'd have been one of my top 2-3 people to look at today, anyway.

Magneto did not redirect the lynch to you. Hawkeye claimed full credit for that, remember? His vote was worth 6 or something that day.

Linki: Ditto to what Bullz and Spiral said.

Spiral, I think at this point it's only possible that you, Longshot, or Havok are bad. I'm not sure which of you yet, and plan to do full rereads and look at your vote histories before deciding.

Operator

I don't think Shaw is a good idea.

Of the 8 players on the poll, I strongly believe 4 of them to be civ, so this shouldn't be that hard. But I can't decide which of the 3 I believe could be bad and are killable should get my vote.

Operator

Geez! Bad night.

RIP Elo, and RIPIYWG Deadpool and Banshee.

To Apocalypse: Are you killing civs on purpose now? Because iirc, someone posted something a bit back that makes it nearly impossible Banshee was bad. If you are, you should know we have a problem.

WB Bullz! Glad our mistake was fixed so quickly.

Bullzeye wrote:Woop! Thanks for the rezz! Hopefully my being back can make a difference. I have a theory actually about something: I think Magneto might be dead. We've lynched a few baddies but never seen his power come into play and I'd think especially this late in the game it should have done at least once. Either he's targeting people that have no impact at all on the lynch or he's not targeting anyone at all.

I actually mentioned this a few days ago, and it was dismissed as crazy. Even I thought it was overly optimistic at the time. But you're right, Magneto is supposed to be horrendously powerful, and we haven't seen him affect even one lynch. So I am also cautiously optimistic he's dead.

Operator

RIP Bullz. I still don't know how anything makes sense since you're good. Bummer to get rezzed and then killed again; I feel kinda stupid about it now.

Havok wrote:Shaw:

For one, I don't think it was common knowledge that Bullzeye was Dazzler when we were voting for the rezz. Two, as has been discussed at length today, Sabretooth was killed on N3. Pyro took over the team's kill on N5. The only person to be killed in between N3 and N5 was Dazzler. You can't see the liklihood there that Dazzler was Sabretooth? As for Sabretooth killing himself....there are roles that redirect targets.

Jubilee
Blinding two targets with fireworks, she switches their targets.

Jean Grey
Using telekinesis, she will redirect someone's Night target.

You still think it's a hilarious concept?

Actually, I remember it as being more or less common knowledge. Didn't Hawkeye basically say so that Night by talking about Dazzler spelling things British-ly? So I knew Bullz was Dazzler when we rezzed him, I just hadn't made the connection about no one else being killed when Sabretooth's killings stopped.

Spiral wrote:RIP Bullzeye. My question is: who the hell was sabretooth, then???/

This is a damn good question, now.

Where you headed?

White Queen wrote:No worries Havoc, I don't blame you. I blame those who followed you, and will doubtless be the first to wave the pitchforks in your direction. Especially those who pushed other names early in the day, then when they did not take, just fell on Bullz.

Wow, unconditional love in mafia! Never thought I'd see the day. So Havok is off-limits for suspicions?

Operator

Anyway, I have to leave. I'm voting Bullz. Like I said, from a readthrough I don't really lean either way on him, but from the case Havok has presented it seems literally impossible that he could be any role other than Sabretooth. Gotta go with the facts.

Linki: Almost entirely because of your late Spiral vote yesterday, and because of what I thought was weak reasoning for it and trying to blame me for your vote. That may seem unfair, since I voted Spiral too. If it makes you feel any better, you don't have to worry about it today, and we have plenty of time to talk it over before the next lynch.

Operator

You say it's not a problem and you're not convinced I'm bad, but I disagree. Every time anyone says anything about me seeming civ, having a good point, or not being suspicious, you react like you did with Bullz, trying to poke holes in what they're saying and asking how they could be so thick as to think I could be good. That doesn't seem to me like someone who doesn't have aproblem with it. You're reading it SUPER biased, but trying to tell yourself you aren't.

Operator

Bullzeye wrote:
Havok wrote:Bullzeye: Why in the world are you so sure that Rasputin is a civvie? Because he's backing you? What has he done in this game to show that he's likely civvie? You say you think Shadowcat is likely civvie...and I agree with that, but I think there are more than just her in the likely civvie camp....such as the Polaris voters. You don't think that lynch showed at least that the Polaris voters were likely civvie?
Just vibe really. I don't think he's bad. Is that a problem for you?

Havok wrote:Thanks, Rasputin.

Bullzeye: No it's not a problem, and I'm not convinced myself that Rasputin is Brotherhood. I just think that he's an odd choice for you to think he's likely civvie. you said that Rasputin and Shadowcat are the only people you feel good about. Rasputin is an odd choice is all.

I was gonna leave this, but I guess I'm not in the mood to. You WANT me to be bad. Spiral and White Queen do too, because I suspected both of them previously. I'm not bad, but you seem bent on believing that I am, and I don't think anything's gonna sway you. Which is a shame, because I truly, honestly believe it's because I suspected you based on the whole Shadowcat-Exodus debate (and now it looks like we were both wrong about that, anyway, if Bullz really is bad). I'm telling you, you need to reevaluate your stance on me. Read all my posts, look at my votes, check night actions, whatever makes you happy. But I'm asking you to do it through a new lens and try to take your negative emotions around me out of it. Because if you don't, I'm getting more and more certain it's going to get me killed and waste time we could have used getting baddies.

Operator

Havok wrote:Rasputin: If Bullzeye is Sabretooth, why would that have any affect on Domino's and Exodus's roles?

And as for Sabretooth not resuming the killing, that would be kinda shitty of the host would it not? To rezz and then immediately be outed in the night post? I've seen this before where a baddie killer was rezzed but did not resume killing so as not to out that person. I'm kinda surprised that you are backing up Bullzeye's post like that, Rasputin.

Well because if Bullz was Sabretooth, then Shadowcat misinterpreted her info because of the redirected NK. That would mean she was sincere, but also that Exodus was truly Gambit. And if Exodus was Gambit, Domino was Mystique. It still would mean Bullz's kill was redirected to himself, which would be insanely lucky, but I'll agree it still looks possible.

As for Epi's handling of that, I tend to agree that you're right. If Bullz were bad, Sabretooth killing would've outed him. And I'd think Bullz was smart enough to ask EPi not to do that.

Regardless of all that, the quote you pulled that Night powers go through regardless of death basically seals it.

Epignosis wrote:
Havok wrote:Epignosis: If a player is nightkilled, does their power still go through for that night?
Yes.

That means Sabretooth still would've killed Night 5 if NKed, meaning Cable and Bastion weren't him. Everyone else who died between then was lynched. I don't think it's possible that another player is Sabretooth, and I think we rezzed a baddie.

Almost certain to vote Bullz now.

Also, I don't know why you're surprised at me. I've done all kinds of things you didn't agree with this game.

Linki: Whoa, vehemence! No, I don't think voting Polaris necessarily shows that all Polaris voters were civ. Certainly to a lesser degree than other things have shown people's roles in this game. The rest of it I more or less agree with, though.

Double Linki: STOP POSTING SO FAST!

Quick reminder: If Dazzler was bad, Exodus was not, because we know that only one of those four was bad, according to what SC said and Exodus corroborated about the info they got. If Exodus was Gambit, Domino was Mystique, because there were two "Gambits" lynched.

Operator

I will say I like that we're talking so much today.

Oh, and that if Bullz isn't bad, either Cable or Bastion was. However, that all requires the assumption that Epi basically wrote the post as if Sabretooth were killed before executing his kill. Not sure why he'd do that, (could be order PMs were sent, maybe?) so I'm not totally comfortable with the idea.

Linki: Well, I think Shaw is a TERRIBLE idea for a lynch. I'm leaning slightly away from a Bullz lynch at the moment, but I'd still like to discuss it more and see what others think of what I posted. I'm strongly considering a Longshot vote, and thinking about one for you as well.

Who are you thinking of voting today?

Operator

Havok wrote:
Mikhail Rasputin wrote:
Banshee wrote: wait a second... it wasn't a very detailed or extensive case, but there very much was a case on marrow, marrow was even leading in visible votes that day before i think one or two players switched theirs away

that.... is actually a pretty interesting idea :hmmm:

it would depend greatly on whether passive role aspects would count as mutant powers which could be lost though. it would suck to waste a lynch.

epig, would passive reflexive powers have been removed last night as well as active targeting powers?

i'm not sure if i worded that correctly...
Do you have time to look it up for me then please? I must've missed it. And it'd be interesting to see who switched away, as well.

As far as the powers question, Epi answered something similar before. Looked to me like Apocalypse would still survive lynches.

Deadpool, as to your question on Bullz, we rezzed him because the theory was he was Dazzler, and Bullz basically confirmed.

Bullzeye wrote:
The Vision wrote: I couldnt follow the rezz stuff much, can anyone tell me ehich sock names we assume eloh and bullz to be?
I'm not sure if we can outright say, but people figured mine out pretty well. I'm kinda disappointed actually, I figured nobody would guess who I was since I wasn't supposed to be around.

Dazzler was double-NKed by the baddies and Sentinels. So I think just based on that, it's real unlikely Bullz is bad. I suppose it's plausible that Bullz was Mystique and Domino was bad, while Exodus and Shadowcat were both good, but that means Sabretooth's power was redirceted to a teammate that night.

So beyond my immediate skepticism of Bullz's evilness, there's his posts and votes. He voted Phoenix the day after his rezz, saying he didn't understand Hawkeye's logic of voting for Marrow if he thought Magneto had targeted Marrow. I agree that it was a bit confusing, but I think it was likely a typo on Hawkeye's part. (I don't know whether that was ever confirmed.) Phoenix was later killed by Hawkeye, somewhat ironically. So we don't actually know her alignment.

The next day he voted Hawkeye (pretty self-explanatory).

Yesterday, obviously, he voted Spiral. I dunno, to me personally, he sounds well-reasoned there and not particularly subversive. I mean, he says he went with Spiral because he thought Spiral was trying to claim civ cred for helping lynch Hawkeye (which I would agree he's done) and said the votes on Polaris lacked substantive backing (which imo was probably true as well). He was wrong about Polaris, but everyone's wrong sometimes.

So I guess all in all I'm leaning pretty solidly civ on Bullz. If he were just any player, I say he's firmly in "I dunno" territory with me, but we rezzed him specifically because of all the NKed people he seemed least likely to be bad. I feel like it's kinda a waste to throw that logic out, and I think we'd likely waste a lynch and a civ life if we lynched him.

Linki: I agree with Banshee. She more or less claimed the role, if you read back, and her tone has changed since.
Solidly civvie on Bullz, you say? You don't think it's possible that Bullz is Sabretooth? Dazzler was killed on night 3 and on night 5 Pyro takes over the NKs for the Brotherhood.

Epignosis wrote:Participants in this Exercise:

Avalanche Link - Killed Night 7 by The Sentinels. Resurrected Night 9.
Banshee Link
Bastion Link - Killed Night 5 by The Sentinels
Cable Link - Killed Night 5 by Omega Red
Dazzler Link - Killed Night 3 by Sabretooth and The Sentinels
Deadpool Link
Deathlok Link - Destroyed Day 1 ... Bishop
Domino Link - Destroyed Day 5.1 ... Gambit
Exodus Link - Destroyed Day 4 ... Gambit
Havok Link
Hawkeye Link - Destroyed Day 9 ... The Sentinels
Longshot Link
Marrow Link - Destroyed Day 8 ... Blob
Mikhail Rasputin Link
Mojo Link - Killed Night 5 by Pyro
Phoenix Link - Killed Night 8 by The Sentinels
Polaris Link - Destroyed Day 10 ... Toad
Quicksilver Link - Destroyed Day 3 ... Psylocke
Scarlet Witch Link - Assassinated Night 2 by Psylocke
Sebastian Shaw Link
Shadowcat Link
Spiral Link
Sunfire Link - - Destroyed Day 5.2 ... Rogue
Thunderbird Link - Destroyed Day 2 ... Forge
The Vision Link - Killed Night 9 by Pyro.
White Queen Link
Bullzeye - Brought back Night 7.
Elohcin - Brought back Night 7.

Alive: 12
Dead: 14
Now, I think I was subscribing to the theory that Dazzler was a civvie and that it was unlikely that the kill could have been redirected to the killer, but look at the above quoted host post.

Dazzler is killed on night 3 by Sabretooth. Pyro takes over the team's NK on Night 5. Who dies between nights 3 and 5? Domino, Exodus, and Sunfire. That's it. All 3 were lynched and none of them were Sabretooth. No other kills occurred between Sabretooth's last kill and Pyro's first.

Dazzler must have been Sabretooth. If Bullzeye is Dazzler, I am voting for Bullzeye today. Can anyone give me a reason why I shouldn't???

When I first read this, I thought "Damn, that is a really smart theory. Good shit." If true it means Bullz was bad, as was Domino, SC and Exodus were good, and Bullz's kill got redirected to himself. It would make it tough to explain why Domino role claimed Gambit after Exodus' death, though. If that's what happened, she basically got herself killed for no reason.

However, Bullz's defense gives me pause. If he was Sabretooth, why is Pyro still carrying out the kills for the Brotherhood?

Linki: Longshot, you're right that it would be smart not to kill anyone. However, the baddies are still killing people, just Sabretooth isn't doing it.

I dunno, I could see Epi either thinking Sabretooth should have the kill back if rezzed so as to be fair to the civs, or not so as to be fair to the baddies. I feel like Bullz's defense should be valid, but I can't say for sure.

Operator

Spiral wrote:
Banshee wrote:i'm still leaning towards white queen, i think the behavioral change after the white queen/apocalypse theory became prevalent seems telling.
If I'm right about who White Queen is IRL, then this would be typical of her given the way some players have treated her.

Mikhail Rasputin wrote:EBWOP: However, Spiral, if you want to never ever try killing me, I totally support that motion. So carry on, please.
What makes you think I shouldn't believe White Queen isn't riding that same train? Why is she special?

Wouldn't it be mutually beneficial to the two of you if you were Apocalypse and actually couldn't die, and everyone thought she was Apocalypse so didn't bother trying to kill her?

Yeah it totally would. I'm just not sure how we would set that up, since we don't have BTSC.

White Queen wrote: Looking forward to hearing what Banshee & Deadpool think of Shaws total lack of suspicions at this point. And of each other. I am going to vote now, I have to go to a wake after work, not sure if I will be back in time (not to worry, it is a coworkers aged parent, no one close to me) so going to vote now for Shaw.

He survived a lynch! Baddies CANNOT DO THAT.

Operator

EBWOP: However, Spiral, if you want to never ever try killing me, I totally support that motion. So carry on, please.

Operator

Banshee wrote: wait a second... it wasn't a very detailed or extensive case, but there very much was a case on marrow, marrow was even leading in visible votes that day before i think one or two players switched theirs away

that.... is actually a pretty interesting idea :hmmm:

it would depend greatly on whether passive role aspects would count as mutant powers which could be lost though. it would suck to waste a lynch.

epig, would passive reflexive powers have been removed last night as well as active targeting powers?

i'm not sure if i worded that correctly...

Do you have time to look it up for me then please? I must've missed it. And it'd be interesting to see who switched away, as well.

As far as the powers question, Epi answered something similar before. Looked to me like Apocalypse would still survive lynches.

Deadpool, as to your question on Bullz, we rezzed him because the theory was he was Dazzler, and Bullz basically confirmed.

Bullzeye wrote:
The Vision wrote: I couldnt follow the rezz stuff much, can anyone tell me ehich sock names we assume eloh and bullz to be?
I'm not sure if we can outright say, but people figured mine out pretty well. I'm kinda disappointed actually, I figured nobody would guess who I was since I wasn't supposed to be around.

Dazzler was double-NKed by the baddies and Sentinels. So I think just based on that, it's real unlikely Bullz is bad. I suppose it's plausible that Bullz was Mystique and Domino was bad, while Exodus and Shadowcat were both good, but that means Sabretooth's power was redirceted to a teammate that night.

So beyond my immediate skepticism of Bullz's evilness, there's his posts and votes. He voted Phoenix the day after his rezz, saying he didn't understand Hawkeye's logic of voting for Marrow if he thought Magneto had targeted Marrow. I agree that it was a bit confusing, but I think it was likely a typo on Hawkeye's part. (I don't know whether that was ever confirmed.) Phoenix was later killed by Hawkeye, somewhat ironically. So we don't actually know her alignment.

The next day he voted Hawkeye (pretty self-explanatory).

Yesterday, obviously, he voted Spiral. I dunno, to me personally, he sounds well-reasoned there and not particularly subversive. I mean, he says he went with Spiral because he thought Spiral was trying to claim civ cred for helping lynch Hawkeye (which I would agree he's done) and said the votes on Polaris lacked substantive backing (which imo was probably true as well). He was wrong about Polaris, but everyone's wrong sometimes.

So I guess all in all I'm leaning pretty solidly civ on Bullz. If he were just any player, I say he's firmly in "I dunno" territory with me, but we rezzed him specifically because of all the NKed people he seemed least likely to be bad. I feel like it's kinda a waste to throw that logic out, and I think we'd likely waste a lynch and a civ life if we lynched him.

Linki: I agree with Banshee. She more or less claimed the role, if you read back, and her tone has changed since.

Operator

White Queen wrote:
Spiral wrote:
Deadpool wrote:whenever i see a white queen post all i hear in my head is the teacher from the peanuts goin WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH
I'm so done with people telling me I'm being personal when people post this bullshit.
Hey, no worries

Pedantic is not the worst thing I have ever been called

And Deadpool and Rasputin, considering that I have been saying for ages that Hawkeye & Polaris were bad (and they were ) why would you think I am not interested in lynching baddies? Just curious.

I never said I don't think you want to lynch baddies. I think you seem into the idea. Again, Hawkeye wasn't exactly bad, but not-civ-aligned is close enough, I guess.

Deadpool wrote:mikhail i think havok asked u a ? about bullz that i wouldnt mind seein ur answer 2

Was the question what I think of him? I haven't really thought about it a lot. I'll look at his votes and posts and get back to ya.

Operator

Sebastian Shaw wrote:White Queen says she wants me lynched. Do you think you should trust her?

No, not really. Who do you want lynched?

Operator

Havok wrote:Rasputin's defense of that argument is that he's survived 2 NKs and that they couldn't both be from outside forces.

Havok wrote:that basically amounts to him role hinting from what I can gather.

I didn't say they couldn't, just that it seems unlikely to me. And I'm not hinting at any role in particular, I'm just asking that people look at what's happened and ask themselves what's most likely to have happened. I am saying I'm not bad, and that if I were, the odds of me surviving two NK attempts are nearly astronomical.

Operator

Damn crypticness.

That to me sounds like it's implying Apoclaypse's not-dying thing is win-condition related. So I won't vote White Queen unless someone convinces me I'm wrong about that.

Operator

Epignosis wrote:
Epignosis wrote:As a point of clarification, prizes, items, and win conditions are not affected. Only mutant abilities will be revoked.

But all powers, including immunity from lynches and NKs, are?

Operator

Hawkeye wrote:
Deadpool wrote:o shit hawkeye were u tryin 2 setup a zombie d8 with polaris???? am i the third wheel? my bad bro my bad
I could use a wingman though.

Then you should ask Banshee! :drums:

Get it? Get it?

Operator

Longshot wrote:
Mikhail Rasputin wrote:
Longshot wrote: I did not feel comfortable about my vote.
What made you uncomfortable about it, and if you were uncomfortable, why vote as you did?
I was uncomfortable because I hadn't thoroughly read the prior days. I voted because I grew up in the mafia world that was never miss a vote and don't vote for yourself so I was even more hesitant about that. In retrospect, it would have been more telling of my situation if I had voted myself or not voted. It was a bad decision I think all the way around.

Ok, thanks for the response.

Havok wrote:You voted for Polaris earlier in the game. Ok. But it's not like you voted for Polaris when there was any real threat of Polaris being lynched. And for your vote of Domino...ok, so you voted for one possible civvie that was lynched. My point still stands. One lynch out of eleven.

On your 2nd comment, I have considered it, but after Polaris flipping Toad it has caused me to revisit all of my instincts from this game because early in the game I had the feeling that Polaris was bad. Realizng that I was wrong about Exodus/Domino caused me to doubt my instincts. Now we are at a critical juncture in the game and I feel like using instincts in a smart way to go.

I'm not calling for your lynch. Not yet, anyway. I just can't put my long lasting suspicion of you to bed yet. Surely, you can understand that.

Yeah, I get it. I'm having trouble resting mine of you too, on occasion.

I had to say something, though. The day opens and 4 people jump all over me, and it looks like I'm headed for a lynch. So I felt it necessary to respond forcefully to the points made. Again, I'm all for discussion, and if we disagree at the end of the day despite having the same evidence, there's not much I can do, but I want to make sure things are presented in a way that's fair to me.

Deadpool wrote:mikhail i asked the host last nite cuz i was confused and he told me that if u lose your powers for m-day then u lose everything your not a mutant anymore. wolverine loses his healin factor omega red loses his faremones apocalypse loses his protection. no powers no role. its apocalypse now baby!!!

Is this for real?? Cuz if so I'm voting White Queen early and often. Could you confirm, Epi?

Operator

There we go. All I wanted was a quote. I'll say now what I said then; I voted Domino, who I'm pretty sure was civvie, and I was probably one of the major reasons QS was lynched, despite deciding not to vote for her. So not squeaky-clean. And your post reminds me, I voted Polaris way before it was cool.

As for the NK thing: I realize it's not a discussion-ender or absolutely ironclad, but I do think you should consider it. You really think it's more likely that baddie teammates blocked people trying to kill me twice in 3 nights than that my role saved me? You're entitled to your opinion, but it's a reach and I think you're making it because you and I have an antagonistic history over the course of this game.

Linki:

Operator

Havok wrote: Fair point, but in order for Spiral to be a Polaris team mate, Spiral would have had to make the decision to vote for a team mate yesterday and keep the vote there. That makes no sense when Spiral is the other lynch candidate.

It kind of does, though. Like Longshot said, Polaris was Toad, and the other 3 possibly living baddie roles are Magneto, Pyro, and Juggernaut. It's possible Spiral or their team to decide Toad was less valuable than whichever of those Spiral was, and when no one else is even on the chopping block for lynch. I'm not saying it's the most likely explanation, (I actually find it somewhat unlikely) but it's definitely possible.

Longshot wrote: I did not feel comfortable about my vote.

What made you uncomfortable about it, and if you were uncomfortable, why vote as you did?

Operator

Deadpool wrote:yah im willin 2 admit im probs wrong about spiral bein bad. i dont think the votes woulda gone down the way it did if him and polaris were team m8s.

and banshees right bout the votes movin during the marrow lynch. longshot voted 4 marrow at the start and said he might change it, then viz called the marrow vote "easy" so longshot switched his vote 2 me. longshot also subtly tried to get banshee to switch his vote too. then there is of course the vote 4 spiral yesterday that could have saved toad. if im goin just by voting record id say longshot fits the brotherhood mold perfectly. longshot blames his vote on not readin closely enuf....... my question for longshot is what would u have done differently with ur vote if u had read the thread better? that excuse dont make sense2me.

tryin to decide whether mikhails missed vote for spiral makes him more or less likely 2 b bad......... raspys a crafty guy im not sure what his angle is.

but i got another idea for todays vote. see the way i read it last night was M-Day meanin a bunch a mutants lost their powers which means we could potentially b dealin w/ a depowered apocalypse today. i was wonderin what yall thought about that. personally i got 2 suspects for apocalypse, white queen and sebastian shaw. my vote today will likely go to one of em cuz i think its important to try and get apocalypse out while we can. i fear the window of opportunity might b closin on that one after today. leanin queenie over shaw what does every1 else think

This is an interesting post. My reading of Apolcalypse's "Can't be lynched or nightkilled" thing is that it wouldn't count as a power for removal and such, but I dunno. Maybe the host can clarify?

I think one of White Queen and Shaw must be Apocalypse. I'm leaning WQ since she survived an NK as well. But I still don't know if Apocalypse is lynchable today, and I think there must be some way to defeat Apocalypse without killing them. I'd be inclined to not try that today, because I don't want to risk wasting a lynch when Magneto's not in play.

Thanks for the voting review on Longshot. I'm not sure if it makes me think she's more or less bad. Voting Marrow early seems risky for a baddie, but the vote switch and asking others to switch don't. And clearly this past vote doesn't look great.

Operator

White Queen wrote:
Mikhail Rasputin wrote:
Let's make sure we're playing with facts, here. I have not "stood in the way" of any lynch, and "quite a few" is so much exaggeration it's laughable.

Day 10: We got the baddie on this one, so did I help? Of course not. But did I "stand in the way"? No.

Day 9 we got Hawkeye. Not sure if you wanna say I'm on his team, given that he's an indie and doesn't have teammates at all. My vote didn't matter because it was clear from the beginning of the day that he was getting almost all the votes. And I did repeatedly acknowledge that the case on him was rock-solid, I just wanted to hear from him first.

Day 8, Hawkeye single-handedly lynched Marrow. Did I help? No. Did you? No. Did anyone? NO.

Day 7 Shaw survived. Not much to say there.

Day 6, Hawkeye tried to lynch White Queen and failed. Again, all him for real.

Both Day 5s and Days 1, 2, and 3, I believe we lynched civs. A number of whom I was decidedly against lynching, by the way.

And Day 4 we got Exodus. Another case like Hawkeye where my vote didn't matter because it was clear where the lynch was going. I agreed (and have been saying for AGES) that Exodus probably was actually bad, and refused to vote him because of my personal beliefs about how mafia should be played. If that's "standing in the way", fine, you got me on one.

I get that you don't like me suspecting you, or voting you two days in a row. But if you want to NO U me, at least read my voting history. And don't lie to make a sensationalistic case on me based on exaggerations.
This post makes me want to go back and reread those lynches, on all the other days in this list, you go into detail about why what transpired does not apply to you. Then for those days highlighted, you were like, "And on these days we lynched civvies, and I was dead set against lynching....a number of them". Um, what? You spelled out each days lynch, rather succinctly, then you lump all those lynches together like that?

It makes me feel like the next line should be, "Yeah, that's the ticket ".

Please do reread, that'd be cool. But the reason I lumped all those together wasn't anything nefarious. It was that this post was a response to the accusation that I have "stood in the way of quite a few useful lynches", not a review of my entire voting history. The days we lynched civs were clearly not useful, so I ignored them for that purpose.

Operator

Havok wrote:
Mikhail Rasputin wrote:
Havok wrote:I'm also interested in revisiting my suspicion of Rasputin today.
"Revisiting"? Your prior suspicion of me was based on me suspecting you because we disagreed on something we both currently agree upon. You can have a new (wrong) suspicion of me, but revisiting the old one seems kinda pointless.

Revisting, yes. I've been suspicious of you for most of the game now, but I had let up on it after realizing that my primary theory of the game was completely wrong. My suspicion of you was not just a No U as you say here. Your lynch record was a big part of it, too. I outlined that several days ago in a post. Your lynch record continues to look strange to me, so I am revisiting it.

Havok wrote:Don't forget to include Rasputin into that group of Spiral voters. He voted for Spiral, too, but he "forgot" to vote in the poll.
I do think for today's purposes of suspicion, we should count my vote as having gone to Spiral. It's who I intended to vote for, so that's fair. But what you're implying with those quotation marks doesn't make even the vaguest sort of sense.

No matter what my role or alignment, pretending to forget could ONLY have made me look bad. In fact, if I were bad and had voted, I'd have saved a teammate, so it would greatly behooved me to not do that.

So yes, as outlandish as it may sound, I actually forgot.

Again, if anyone wants to suspect me, I'm fine with it. I'm happy to argue about it, and I think my thread behavior and factual evidence from the game refute it. But if you're going to suspect me, at least do me the courtesy of having a good, real, not-made-up reason for doing so.

Here you are trying to dismiss legitimate suspicion as something that's just bogus or made up. Yes, maybe you did just legitmately forgot to vote in the poll. That's fair. But you are really playing up your contributions to the game. Your "thread behavior and factual evidence" doesn't point to you being a being a solid civvie....not at all. The fact that you would try to convince anyone of that is "pingy" as the kids say.

You never once brought up my voting record in your prior suspicion (which, as you admitted yourself, was based primarily on an understanding of the game that doesn't seem possible at this stage). I'm happy to talk it over, but claiming it was "a big part" of why you were after me earlier is just not true. Quote or gtfo.

Maybe I forgot? You're still only willing to give me a maybe, when literally nothing good could have happened to me because of forgetting, no matter my alignment? Come on, man. I'm gonna tell you what I just told Spiral: watch for blinders. And yes, that wild speculation about how I "forgot" instead of forgetting is. Bogus. And. Made. Up.

I dispute the idea that I've been playing up my contributions. I acknowledged that I haven't been much help on any lynch, vote-wise not even the ones that turned out well. I don't really even know what's there to play up.

And we can debate that thread behavior and factual evidence points to me being a civvie. In fact, I would love to do so. I don't understand why that's weird; convincing people not to kill you is as much a part of mafia as finding the baddies. If I'm not allowed to try to convince people I'm good without looking pingy, I'm kinda screwed.

Havok wrote:
Spiral wrote:The thing that gives me pause on Mikhail is that he was targeted for a NK by the baddies. :/

He was? When? I thought he was targeted by The Sentinels or Apocalypse? I don't remember him being targeted by the Brotherhood.

Yep! Again, let's play with facts. I have survived night kills from Apocalypse and the Sentinels, not the Brotherhood. The idea that I'm civ has nothing to do with them targeting me, just the pure fact of my survival.

Can I ask why if they had targeted me that would only give you pause, and not utterly convince you that I was not one of them? Please make sure you don't have your blinders on, because from here it looks a heck of a lot like you do.

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