The Syndicate

Turnip Head wrote:Well the difference is I know I'm interested in catching Kiras And I don't need to be careful about my accusations because they are genuine

Metalmarsh doesn't have a usual MO. I've played exactly ONE game with him where he was a civvie, but it was a sockpuppet game, and he had a discovery role, and it was also his first game here, and he was certainly more interested in catching baddies in that one. I wouldn't feel fair comparing this to his other games because it feels like apples and oranges.

In other games where Metalmarsh has been bad, he's certainly been more involved than he has here. Despite his 13 pages of posts, very little of it relates to his own suspicions and thoughts. He's always just playing off of other's thoughts, commenting from the peanut gallery. That doesn't feel like detective behavior to me in the slightest.

Okay, I'm going to think of this a little more. I feel like if I vote, it's more because of what you say, and not because he's really caught my eye. I think I trust you more than I do most players here at the moment in terms of trying to help, so I'm not ruling it out, but we'll see.

Bea, can you please tell me if you're only asking to get lynched to prove a point, or if there's more to it? What's it going to prove anyway? If you think Boo is bad, why not just vote for him?

linki: Yeah, I completely agree with that, TH, and thanks SD

Turnip Head wrote:
juliets wrote:TH, regarding your wanting to return to discussion on MM, can you link to your case on him? Or just maybe mention the major points about him and that will jar my memory.
Click this post and then keep reading down the page. Just read and absorb, form your own opinion, then come back to my analysis here...

Eventually MM makes a list of Kira suspects that fit a profile he seemed to have created on the fly... and until today, after being prompted by Bea herself to do so, he hasn't voted for or pursued any of those suspects. The question I ask myself is, is he even interested in catching Kira? The evidence says no.

I would love to point to the other times I tried to engage with MM in the same way as I did above, but after that exchange he tended to outright ignore my direct questions to him, skulking away into the shadows, only to accuse me yesterday of not bringing up any points about him. When I proved him wrong on that, he scurried back into the shadows once again. Hah!

I know, you said that. But a lot of people think you're not interested in finding Kiras either, so I would think you would be more careful with those accusations :P Seriously though, is the kind of behaviour you're describing, different from his usual MO?

linki: I think we've all done that when it comes to llama, which makes the question why he's not dead even more important, in my opinion. If we all just let him be because he caught Snowman (probably not knowing he's bad anyway and maybe thinking he'd get away with lynching a civvie by using his poor percentages in catching baddies), when he was allegedly doing so well this game, why didn't the baddies kill him?

Turnip Head wrote:What does everyone else think of Metalmarsh?

I have no idea. He's a riddle to me. Can you think of things that differ his civvie game from his baddie game?

What do you think of llama? Did you read my points about him?

Turnip Head wrote:
juliets wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:It's cool how people can justify their votes for Bea while ignoring the underlying context of why she's asking for votes... really well done guys.
TH I haven't voted for bea and I am trying to figure out the underlying context. She seems desperate to tell us who she is but it seems like that is just to show boo up. I know as a civ i have been that fed up before but before i put my finger on that button I realize it's my duty to try and make it through so I won't hurt my team (unless its already a done deal). What exactly is the underlying context you are talking about?
That Bea has had enough of Boo's biased attack on her playstyle and just wants to show Boo up, so basically what you said. I could be wrong, but honestly how does this look like a baddie ploy? She's too committed for this to be a bluff.

I'm more talking to the people who have already voted for Bea, and did so almost gleefully. MM and Boomslang. MM was already on my list, Boomslang has quickly found his way onto it.

I agree with this. If you really want to get to the bottom of things and do your best to help the civvie cause, voting like that is a no no in my opinion. Especially with Boomslang, which has barely said anything this day. Seems like a really easy way to justify your vote.
That said, I'm still trying to figure out this whole Bea thing. I don't think she really has a reason to be fed up. If you look at the amount of suspicion she's gained vs. what I've gained, it's not even close. Also, she said that Boo didn't build a case on her. If that's the case, then she shouldn't have even been bothered by him. I find her reaction exaggerated. I don't know if she's good or bad, but maybe she gains something by getting lynched. I've felt fed up a few times and had the itch to vote myself just to prove those after me wrong, but I haven't done it for a few reasons: a. If they are bad (which I'm starting to think might be the case), then they get what they want. b. If they are just wrong, getting myself lynched doesn't help the civvies in any way. So I have to wonder what's Bea's agenda. Has Bea ever done this just to prove a point? Last game I played with her on K-site, she kept defending herself no matter how much fingers were pointed at her

boo wrote:I think he's bad. I think he's a Shingami (probably Ryuk, because I think he and bea have BTSC).

This is my original llama suspicion post.

Nothing since that has changed in why I thought he was bad, a few things have added to it (for example, he hasn't been NKed, and if llama is to be believed, he is often lynched early, if he doesn't get lynched he gets NKed as a civ, and most of his wins are when he is bad. If he hasn't been lynched and hasn't been a serious contender, why hasn't he been NKed? Because he's part of the group doing the killing, and is therefore bad, and following the claim he has made about winning more as a baddie, I guess that means he's on track to win the game). But, it's like with bea. Yes, there was a point in my initial suspicion I actually wanted to see him lynched (lasted longer with llama than with bea), but once I placed llama in the shingami spot, I haven't been as interested. Would it be nice to confirm it? Yes, of course. Do I think that's a good use of a lynch? No.

I'm looking primarily for 2 roles. Mikami and Higuchi. I'm suspicious of a bunch of people, but unless I can place a person in one of those two, I'm less inclined to want to lynch them.

Now, for Higuchi, I've thought for a while that it's Epi. At the very least, I see almost no scenario where he isn't Yotsuba. TH also fits as Higuchi. I'd be pretty ok with voting for either of them, but unless Higuchi has the note, that's also a wasted lynch, so I'm less inclined to look there just yet.

Which means for me, I'm the most focused on Mikami. That was my problem last lynch, you and made both fit that for me, and it wasn't Made. It could be you, and I haven't ruled out voting for you today as a result, but I'm also looking to see if there's anyone I can find, or someone else anyone can make a good argument for. But that's what makes voting hard this game. I'm not looking to lynch a specific player, I'm looking to lynch a specific role, and there are only a few other roles that are still a really great lynch and not just an ok result. It's harder in this game, because usually you can just suspect someone and try and lynch them because you think they're a baddie. That doesn't have the same kind of pay off in this game. It's something I myself missed for a long time, and it's something I think a lot of other people are still missing when they're deciding who to vote for.

Outside of those 2, finding the other sympathizers is the next priority for me (I still think non-Higuchi Yotsuba are an acceptable lynch, but they've never been the priority). But there's still to many possibilities in my mind to narrow that down. I wasn't really sure about DP, but based on recent events, I'm leaning towards thinking he's a fit for a role in there, but he just joins the list with a bunch of other people I don't remotely trust, but am not confident enough to actually vote for.

Thank you for this. I think your analysis is very good. To be honest, I haven't really considered all the likelihoods of actually succeeding in the lynch, I just think of who I think is bad. If we go by this, then I think the likelihood of lynching a civ are greater than lynching a baddie, so if we think someone is bad, maybe we should try to lynch them anyway, or at least talk about them more for a few reasons: a. to get L to look at them. B. to get a blocker or someone with a role similar to that, to use it against them.
I know you won't take my work, but I am not an of those roles, and lynching me will do nothing to further the detectives' cause

I don't get the Ryuk role. Does he have a win condition? Can he ever be NK or lynched? I don't really understand how he can lose

boo wrote:
bea wrote:
FZ. wrote:My observations are definitely influenced by how I'm being viewed this game.
First of all, I just want to say that my cussing and emotional overreaction only began after I responded to every accusation that was thrown at me time after time, only to find it twisted and turned so it fit the initial perception. So whoever wants to just accuse me of going with the emotional "manipulation" or even civvie response has no idea what they are talking about.

So when looking at the back and forth between Boo and Bea, I can see it in two ways:
1. Bea is being falsely accused (either by a civ or a baddie). Yeah, I could see the case, but since things I say are wrongly used against me, so can hers.
2. Her voting for herself is an awesome bluff meant to make people think they shouldn't vote. But if that's the case, why keep encouraging them to do so?
I feel I'm more inclined to go with the former. Heck, I've thought of doing this a few times, just to prove the point. But I have my reasons not to.

I have been thinking about llama lately, especially after his crusade for lynching me. Here are my reasons and I'd like to hear others' thoughts:
1. The entire game, he's been displaying a one track mind. He's not looking into anything else. He's made up his mind about me, great. Does he comment on anything else? No! He's just sitting there telling people to vote for me. Say you get me lynched, what then? I'd expect civvie llama to want to further the discussion. Especially since he keeps saying that the puzzles are hindering the talk. I don't see him talking at all.
2. Did you all notice that Zombarella was not trusting him much? And she was one of the few who didn't. Did we ever stop to think that maybe that's the reason she's dead?
3. Since everyone is so trusting of llama, and he's so "amazingly on spot" this game, wouldn't you expect him to be dead at this point? He always says he's not NK because he's easily lynched. Well, he isn't this game and no one even considers him.
but see fz - that's the point - it isn't even what I've said. from boo -I"m not even allowed the opportunity to have a case built against me based on how I've acted in the thread because I will emotionally manipulate that to serve my baddie intentions as he sees it.

llama and others might suspect you and want to lynch you -but at least - at least they can say this is why -this is what you said.

They may be right - they may be wrong -but at least they can point to *something* - don't you see how different boo's case on me is? Doesn't anyone?
This complaint would make more sense if I were even trying to talk people into voting for you. I think you're Light. I have said that. I think Mikami and Higuchi should be killed before an attempt is spent trying to lynch Light, to box Light into having the death note and not being able to get rid of so that we can actually lynch them. I've said that.

You're the one going on a paranoid defensive - to the point you voted for yourself as if people are lining up to lynch you and it isn't just me, a bit of Epi (who let's face it, isn't a detective, so what he says can hardly be trusted), and a few people who have basically voiced their opinion on the matter as being 'that isn't necessarily wrong'.

And yet, for some reason, you can't see why you acting like that earns suspicion, and generates discussion? You aren't fighting back, you aren't going on the offensive, you aren't even proving me wrong by trying to defend. You're picking up your ball and going home, or at least, you're trying to. And then you think that suspicion feeding into suspicion is unreasonable, and you see that as me looking to pick apart everything you do in some crazy and unfair way? I'm doing what I'm doing because I think you're bad, and your reaction, as if I'm somehow being mean and unfair and persecuting you for no reason, is what is actually unreasonable.

But hey, go ahead and keep acting like I'm doing nothing but relentlessly and pointlessly attacking you, because that for sure doesn't prove my point.

Yeah, this is what I mean.
Boo, can you tell me what you think of llama again and why?

Bea, I get what you're saying, but it's not as if he hasn't said anything that's reasonable. Yeah, I agree with him that you're someone who could have killed those two, especially after watching SVS ask for your thoughts a few times.

For what it's worth, if someone builds a case on you and you know it's wrong, but no matter what you say, it gets used to further the case, it just frustrates you more. If anything, the fact that Boo hasn't built a "solid" case on you, should have made you laugh at his face and not just want to prove to him. In that sense, I do think you're being a little over defensive. It's not like most people suspected you, nor did you have to defend yourself for days. Why'd you even let him get to you if you thought it was BS? That's what makes me a bit hesitant to trust you.

What are your thoughts on what I said about llama?

linki: Going to read. Go to sleep MP

My observations are definitely influenced by how I'm being viewed this game.
First of all, I just want to say that my cussing and emotional overreaction only began after I responded to every accusation that was thrown at me time after time, only to find it twisted and turned so it fit the initial perception. So whoever wants to just accuse me of going with the emotional "manipulation" or even civvie response has no idea what they are talking about.

So when looking at the back and forth between Boo and Bea, I can see it in two ways:
1. Bea is being falsely accused (either by a civ or a baddie). Yeah, I could see the case, but since things I say are wrongly used against me, so can hers.
2. Her voting for herself is an awesome bluff meant to make people think they shouldn't vote. But if that's the case, why keep encouraging them to do so?
I feel I'm more inclined to go with the former. Heck, I've thought of doing this a few times, just to prove the point. But I have my reasons not to.

I have been thinking about llama lately, especially after his crusade for lynching me. Here are my reasons and I'd like to hear others' thoughts:
1. The entire game, he's been displaying a one track mind. He's not looking into anything else. He's made up his mind about me, great. Does he comment on anything else? No! He's just sitting there telling people to vote for me. Say you get me lynched, what then? I'd expect civvie llama to want to further the discussion. Especially since he keeps saying that the puzzles are hindering the talk. I don't see him talking at all.
2. Did you all notice that Zombarella was not trusting him much? And she was one of the few who didn't. Did we ever stop to think that maybe that's the reason she's dead?
3. Since everyone is so trusting of llama, and he's so "amazingly on spot" this game, wouldn't you expect him to be dead at this point? He always says he's not NK because he's easily lynched. Well, he isn't this game and no one even considers him.

I'm going to bed.
For those of you who vote early, if you're really interested in taking Kiras down, voting for me will not achieve that. I have no idea what Epi's role is and whether it's deliberate or not, but I do know he's wrong. I am not a baddie.

Since I'm sick of defending myself, I will likely stop doing it. If you have any specific question, I'll answer. If not, I'm just going to ignore posts asking you to lynch me or saying how this is something that has to be done, because it's a lie

Epignosis wrote:
FZ. wrote:Don't forget that if he did role check me out of everyone (why not do Made if he was relatively trusting me?), he had 50% chance of getting something else, so this "facts" you seem to be using to make me look bad, are rubbish.
"Rubbish" eh?

I anticipated this reply from you, but not such strong terminology. Let me ask you this: If you were Mogi, and you checked someone, would you dismiss it as "rubbish" because it was a 50% check? Would you refrain from using your ability and effectively be a vanilla civilian instead?I would use it, but I would be very hesitant in drawing conclusions that could lead to very bad actions. And my terminology is harsh, because I'm sick of defending myself. There's just so much fun a person can have in the game, when all they do is defend themselves. Don't worry,it's what you're supposed to do if you think I'm bad, but since I'm not, I don't have to like it.

FZ. wrote:And if your gut tells you something, you should obviously ignore it, because god forbid we use facts. You're such and incredible baddie hunter that you don't need facts. You've got the whole game pinned down
Yeah, about things we have pinned down...

FZ. wrote:Honestly, I'm not even sure llama and Epi are really working for the good side. I think they're not even trying to look at things from all sides. When I'm a baddie, I often stick to my suspicions to not look like I'm flip flopping and to not get called out for "contradicting" back-pedalling" and all that.
I read your Star Trek game. You were a fish on hot pier. See? Here is how you "use" facts. You ignore the word "often" and then twist it so it fits your theory. You have to remember that on K-site, people are a lot more familiar with me in both alignments, so I have to get out of my comfort zone and try and switch it and do things that people don't recognize as my baddie behaviour. The game you read is my last game as a baddie there. But of course, whatever fits your "facts"

FZ. wrote:
Epignosis wrote:The first thing that popped out at me was that you are too easily dissuaded, which matches your behavior here, I think.

You also threw out a lot of names early on, which is what you also did here. Again, did you compare this to my civvie game? Do I not throw a lot of names out there?

Was Laura bad??? Was she my team mate? Sure, I go after civvies, and I back off. These are things I do both when a civ and a baddie. It's how we all play the game, isn't it?
You don't even have your story pinned down about your game as a villain, so it discredits your commentary regarding it. I think we already established that what people believe about themselves is not always what they really do. But won't you enlighten me here. Do you have your game as a villain pinned down?

A fish on a hot pier, yes sir.

And like a fish on a hot pier, you are slippery, don't smell right, and should be filleted.

At least I'm not taking the whole civvies down, which is what you're doing by keeping twisting things the way you're doing. I'd rather be inconsistent, contradictory and what not instead of being narrow minded, and wrong

DharmaHelper wrote:
FZ. wrote:Also, DH, a few days back, you voted Epi and was sure he was bad. Do you still maintain that notion?

linki: If he needed me dead, it's not because I'm bad. Don't forget that if he did role check me out of everyone (why not do Made if he was relatively trusting me?), he had 50% chance of getting something else, so this "facts" you seem to be using to make me look bad, are rubbish.

As for the singing and dancing, you don't have to believe me, because obviously, you don't want to, but I skipped through the whole NK post to the end. I just saw a lot of green which looked like something. So if you're referring to that, I have no idea what singing and dancing he had to do.

And if your gut tells you something, you should obviously ignore it, because god forbid we use facts. You're such and incredible baddie hunter that you don't need facts. You've got the whole game pinned down

RE: Epi -

Meh.

I figured it out. Epi has to be L, "The world’s most renowned detective, L is incredibly intelligent, logical, and diligent"

Sorry, meant "god forbid we use gut. We only use facts"

Also, DH, a few days back, you voted Epi and was sure he was bad. Do you still maintain that notion?

linki: If he needed me dead, it's not because I'm bad. Don't forget that if he did role check me out of everyone (why not do Made if he was relatively trusting me?), he had 50% chance of getting something else, so this "facts" you seem to be using to make me look bad, are rubbish.

As for the singing and dancing, you don't have to believe me, because obviously, you don't want to, but I skipped through the whole NK post to the end. I just saw a lot of green which looked like something. So if you're referring to that, I have no idea what singing and dancing he had to do.

And if your gut tells you something, you should obviously ignore it, because god forbid we use facts. You're such and incredible baddie hunter that you don't need facts. You've got the whole game pinned down

DharmaHelper wrote:
FZ. wrote:Back to the puzzle, it's really important that we solve it
I don't think we're getting anywhere on that front any time soon.

Do you think there was a point in taking letters? Was it for real, or is he just messing with us?

Back to the puzzle, it's really important that we solve it

bea wrote:DP - I'm not not sure I've ever seen you show any excitement that wasn't hockey or music related. What do you think of Mata? I'm curious as to how you are reading her after your musketeer stint in Recruitment.

FZ - at the moment, I am doing that weird talking myself into and out of suspicions. I am worried about Mata -hence me asking DP about him, but it's nothing I can put my finger on in posts. I still feel pretty uneasy about boo - I keep flip flopping how I feel about epi and DH. One minute they read bad to me and the next they don't. I read your frustration as genuine the other day btw. IDK about where I stand on you. One thing kinda bothers me though - why did you vote me? I was in the middle of signing papers on my new car when I was trying to read all that and vote, but before when I was online you said you felt better about me. What changed your mind?

linki - Don't loose any sleep over it sweetie. We've all done is and some of us far worse than you. *hides hed* - It's easy to get over emotional during these things.

I'm also curious about Mata, but I have no idea how she plays. She asks good questions, but she can easily do it as a baddie.
With DH, I've felt pretty good about him the whole game, and now that he can easily join the lynch on me, he's choosing to use his feeling that I wouldn't do something like that as a civ, as a reason. I kind of like the fact that he's not following the crowd, but I don't know. Maybe I'm biased.
Epi, most of the time I think he's okay. His frustration when being accused felt genuine earlier in the game, and he seems very convinced I'm bad, and actually, I do appreciate him going to look for my baddie game. Other things he's done make me think that he's not that good.
I voted for you, because I felt Made was being wrongly lynched, and I definitely knew I was being wrongly lynched, so out of those with votes, I felt more comfortable voting for you. The thing with Boo and you has got me quite interested, but also confused. It's like there's suspicion going on which is on a low burner but is there, yet nothing happens, and no one is really paying attention to it. I don't like when people go for the obvious. Yes, it works sometimes, but most of the times, you lynch civvies.

Boo strikes me as an intelligent player and when he posts, it usually makes a lot of sense, but it also seems like he's on the outskirts looking in, afraid to get his hands dirty. Don't know what to make of it, because I don't know how he usually plays.

I mean either, not any way

DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:I don't know if I'm a fan of seeing the extreme emotional response as a civ thing. I probably get even more frustrated when I'm caught as a baddie (although I try not to show it when that happens ). Of course I can't compare others to myself, but I don't know if I could get behind that.
Would you cuss anyone out if you were a baddie?
Hard to say. I don't believe I'd cuss anyone out regardless of alignment. I've never really gotten that incensed.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't have believed I'd do it anyway

bea wrote:Rip Russ.

@DP - if you had to pick your top 3 suspects right now, who would they be and why?

Who are yours?

DharmaHelper wrote:
FZ. wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:I don't know if I'm a fan of seeing the extreme emotional response as a civ thing. I probably get even more frustrated when I'm caught as a baddie (although I try not to show it when that happens ). Of course I can't compare others to myself, but I don't know if I could get behind that.
Would you cuss anyone out if you were a baddie?
I wouldn't. I normally wouldn't do it anyway. But DH, if that's the only reason you think I'm a civ, than it makes me feel bad.
I didn't say it was the only reason, I don't think. It is however the most compelling one.

I get that. I do that too, and like I said, when Epi was getting all the attention back in the beginning of the game, his frustration seemed genuine to me, so I backed off. I don't think he's a Kira.

What do you think about Boo? Does he always play like this? Attacking one minute, and then sitting back for a while the other?

DharmaHelper wrote:
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:I don't know if I'm a fan of seeing the extreme emotional response as a civ thing. I probably get even more frustrated when I'm caught as a baddie (although I try not to show it when that happens ). Of course I can't compare others to myself, but I don't know if I could get behind that.
Would you cuss anyone out if you were a baddie?

I wouldn't. I normally wouldn't do it anyway. But DH, if that's the only reason you think I'm a civ, than it makes me feel bad.

RIP Russ

Llama, if you had really wanted to vote for the person "outing Russ" you'd have voted for Boo. I don't care any more though. You and Epi can tell people to vote for me as much as you want. All you're doing is encouraging them to take down a detective. Yes, I've said it. Kira can take me out at night for all I care.

Until then, I will be trying to do what I can to baddie hunt (though these accusations are making it hard to actually do that).

Honestly, I'm not even sure llama and Epi are really working for the good side. I think they're not even trying to look at things from all sides. When I'm a baddie, I often stick to my suspicions to not look like I'm flip flopping and to not get called out for "contradicting" back-pedalling" and all that. So if one person fits that description more than others, I'd say it's llama, because he's the one who's been doing that a lot more, while Epi has been going more back and forth with suspicion. Also, while llama was right about Snowman, I think his reasons were silly (yeah, sorry), as are his reasons for voting me. Only baddies make suspicions, only baddies contradict, only baddies defend other baddies- especially when they don't even have BTSC and can't know they are together. At least Epi went to the trouble of looking closely at what I do.

That said, give me any name of a player and I can build a "case" for you. That's why I really don't really always follow the "cases". You can twist players words to fit whatever you want. So case builders who just quote endless posts of someone don't make me feel like they are more good than others. I make my decisions differently. I sometimes make mistakes (like with BWT- but yes, I still think what he did with Russ was very poor baddie hunting, and Russ is most likely a detective, so there you go)

My comment wasn't directed at anyone specific. It was a building frustration after going for so long trying to defend myself when wrongly accused, and that was the straw that broke me. It shouldn't have happened and I apologize.
I'm disappointed with myself. In my defence I'll just say it was almost 3 am, and I was feeling frustrated that I'm not getting through to people, and like I said, the feeling that I was accused for outing civvies, especially after what happened in the Donner game, snapped me

DharmaHelper wrote:
FZ. wrote:RIP Made I had a feeling you weren't a Kira.

I'm sorry I used words I don't usually do. I got frustrated. I can take all the heat in the world, even if it's bull and Epi and llama are as wrong as it gets. But when you told me that I outed civvies, I snapped.
First of all, I didn't even know about that role. The only reason I went to check is because Boo talked about it, and then DH, and then all the rest. How stupid do you think the baddies are? If I found out about that role from your talk, so would they. If they are not following the thread, then they wouldn't follow my post either.

Second, I disagree that real baddies don't follow the thread or read the roles. When I'm a baddie, I try a lot harder to follow so I have things to use on others, and also, so I know who to kill and who might have a power that might put me at risk. I have no idea how you people play this game

Now I'll continue to catch up

linki: DH is right, I wouldn't. But that's not the reason not to suspect me
Not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that in this specific instance I don't think Kira kept up with the thread. There were two much better NK targets at least than Zomberella.

You said :Well if any baddies missed that, there you go."

Epignosis wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
Epignosis wrote:Please, tell us what you think of FZ. and her posts besides, "Well, she wouldn't swear at us."
Anything I say you will contort and warp as you've been doing, for God only knows what reason. You're not willing to take my input seriously at all, so why should I give it to you? Anyone whose idea of a "case" is quoting every single post I've made and placing a completely false commentary over all of it is not worth my effort.

I don't think FZ. would fake being so offended (going so far as to say Fuck You to all of us) if she were bad. I just don't feel like thats the case, and if it is, then I'm embarrassed because I've fallen for it and disapointed that she'd employ such a tactic.
That's avoiding accountability. Instead of answering the question, DH anticipates what I will do with that he says and preemptively turns them around on me. Notice that he never states what he thinks of FZ.'s posts.

Also notice that he never actually showed that my 8-post case against him was "false commentary." He states it as though it is accepted fact.

Using something like my reaction to draw conclusions is exactly what I mean when I say gut feeling. People use it, I used it on day 1 or 2 when people were going after you. Your frustration seemed genuine so I backed off. Accept it

RIP Made

I had a feeling you weren't a Kira.

I'm sorry I used words I don't usually do. I got frustrated. I can take all the heat in the world, even if it's bull and Epi and llama are as wrong as it gets. But when you told me that I outed civvies, I snapped.
First of all, I didn't even know about that role. The only reason I went to check is because Boo talked about it, and then DH, and then all the rest. How stupid do you think the baddies are? If I found out about that role from your talk, so would they. If they are not following the thread, then they wouldn't follow my post either.

Second, I disagree that real baddies don't follow the thread or read the roles. When I'm a baddie, I try a lot harder to follow so I have things to use on others, and also, so I know who to kill and who might have a power that might put me at risk. I have no idea how you people play this game

Now I'll continue to catch up

linki: DH is right, I wouldn't. But that's not the reason not to suspect me

thellama73 wrote:I think it's insane to vote for a confessed Yotsuba at this point in the game. We need to catch Kira, y'all.

Good job doing that

DharmaHelper wrote:
FZ. wrote:If what Made is claiming is true, than you people are 100% not lynching a Kira or a kira supporter
What do you mean you people?

I'm not the one voting for one of us

If what Made is claiming is true, than you people are 100% not lynching a Kira or a kira supporter

boo wrote:And of course, they both voted bea, so maybe they're both bad, agree with me, and are attempting some distancing in case they go down. That they didn't vote for each other to try and save themself makes me think that. So maybe they're both Kira (Mikami and Misa), and the choice doesn't even matter.

I actually want people to vote for me. The satisfaction in the "I told you so" would be so much greater than the enjoyment I'm currently experiencing from this game. And is there a contra colour to Sarcastic orange? Because I really need it.

NIght

DharmaHelper wrote:Well if any baddies missed that, there you go.

I'm the baddie right? Anyway, I'm not the one who brought it to attention. Boo did. You can't all complain that we don't read the roles and then roll your eyes when we say the obvious.

I'm going with Bea, and fuck you all (and I rarely use that word).
Going to bed. I'm sick of this game

Where did Mata go? She just voted without saying a word??

Thanks Made

Is this what everyone is talking about?
Kanzo Mogi – One of the most dedicated members of the Japanese Task Force, but also one of the most reserved. At any time, Mogi can decide to stop talking. Any time he stops talking for at least 48 hours, he will gain a role check that performs with 50% accuracy (with a 50% chance of instead receiving a randomly redirected result).

Yeah, I didn't catch up on all the new reveals. Hell, I didn't even know there were any. You all caught another baddie thing I did. Good for you.

Made, what do you think of me? A lot of people find me suspicious. I haven't seen you say anything about me. Since I have votes on me, wouldn't it be best to look at the case on me and give your thoughts?

Turnip Head wrote:Man oh man

What?

And what is everyone saying on Russ. Sorry if I'm dense.

boo wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:Made, I would like to know why you randomly decided to read Bass to see if anything was there when nobody's brought up Bass before. That seemed... random. Is it because you knew it'd be a quick read?
I brought up Bass before. Day 1 or 2. Although, Made seems to exclusively be looking at people I've brought up before, plus Russ.

It's the plus Russ that is bothering me. FZ agreeing with him on it also bothers me. The answer to Russ has been available, and I think both of them know that, and I think they think the baddie who is killing must not, and they're bringing him up because they want to draw attention to it. I think I'll probably vote one of them, I just don't know if one of them may honestly not have realized it yet. I really doubt neither of them have, and I lean towards thinking FZ would be the more likely of the two since she's been more involved, but it's Made doing more of the pushing... and not reading the updated roles also seems to be something a baddie would be more likely do, since they don't care who doesn't really care who gets lynched as long as it isn't them, and I think if he has no BTSC that would be even more true than a normal game/

I also don't trust (to the point I think they aren't detective friendly) 2 out of the 3 FZ voters... but, then we have Russ as the third. And I don't actually trust and of the Made voters, I just don't actively distrust them.

I think I could flip a coin deciding which one of these two to vote for right now, so I guess I'll wait it out a bit longer.

I have no idea what you just said here.

The first part should have been in orange, just in case someone missed the obvious

Turnip Head wrote:Hahaha FZ, you really can't help yourself can you :P If Made gets lynched and flips bad everyone's gonna accuse you of defending him :P

I can't. I'm such an obvious baddie, aren't I? I've got nothing to hide. I'm just going with what feels right to me. Lynching Made doesn't feel right to me. Who cares? Everyone is suspicious of me already. I don't give a damn.

I'm going to bed in a few minutes. I'll make my decision in a few

I think I'm having a really bad game. Is it that I expect baddies to not change their game so much? and not be obvious? Made, everyone is convinced you're a baddie. I think even more people than me. Is there anyone who doesn't think Made is bad?

Made wrote:
FZ. wrote: Do you think Made is the kind of player to say something so stupid as a baddie?
Context? Is there another outstanding theory against me?

The post about why don't we all cooperate so all sides can win

Turnip Head wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:I find Made to be way less confrontational when he's a baddie compared to his civ style, and he's saying that the opposite is true.
I think he's saying he would find someone to suspect just for the sake of suspecting and looking like he's doing a lot more than he is now. Or maybe I read it wrong
Yeah that's what he's saying. I just don't believe him.

linki: No, you didn't die when everyone was on your case in GoC because I and others naively defended your kooky actions :P After a rough start you tried to fade into the background of the GoC game, and succeeded for quite a while. Same thing you're doing here, IMO.

You know him better than me. Maybe I'm wrong to think that's what he'd do. Beats me

thellama73 wrote:
FZ. wrote: You're a man. You just like to consider yourself as a going with facts and logic. :P Maybe you are and that's why you're messing up right now, because you think all the reasons you brought up on me are real evidence for baddie tells when in fact, they are not
Sexist.

Better?

zeek wrote:When has Made been civ?

FZ. wrote:linki: Sorry Zeek, I didn't mean to offend you or throw things back at you. I'm frustrated, and I'm trying to show you that "reads" are basically gut, not to throw suspicion at you. For example, my gut tells me that a baddie, especially one that is often engaged in the game and expected to be, would try harder to appear like that when a civvie too, so I can't just go and vote Made, even if people read him as a posting something that on surface level appears scummy. In that sense, I asked what have you done that makes you a civ.
I don't think gut votes are the same as read votes. Gut votes are pretty intangible and to say they're the same devalues reading people imo. I play a pretty open game and I try to respond to every post that questions or has a question for me, that way people can get a decent read on me and try to see that I'm good. I'm pretty much the Anti-Made, I've had one and a half bad roles ever. That's what I do to show I'm civ

A lot fo baddies don't try very hard to appear civ. I think Made could be trying to be more under the radar this game, given he's lynched so often. Of course, this could be flawed, circular logic.

I build cases, you can see it by TH's list :P so no need to tell me about reads. That said, I think that after I build a case, when I back and forth with that person, I can sometimes back off just because in my gut, I feel that person is being genuine, no matter how his actions seemed suspicious before. I think most of us do it to some extent. Maybe I do it more than others, I don't know.
And I think I'm open and let people see me for what I am...and then it appears I get accused for it. I admitted the first day (after not voting), that I would have voted for someone, but had no idea who I would have voted for. People thought that was a baddie reaction, but it was a sincere one. Do you think I can't just find something on someone and then say that's the person I would vote for? I can, and it's easy. When I'm a civ, I struggle more because I don't want to make mistakes that will hurt the civvies.

Turnip Head wrote:I find Made to be way less confrontational when he's a baddie compared to his civ style, and he's saying that the opposite is true.

I think he's saying he would find someone to suspect just for the sake of suspecting and looking like he's doing a lot more than he is now. Or maybe I read it wrong

Epignosis wrote:I could be wrong, but I can't think of a single time I voted for anyone because of a gut feeling.

You're a man. You just like to consider yourself as a going with facts and logic. :P Maybe you are and that's why you're messing up right now, because you think all the reasons you brought up on me are real evidence for baddie tells when in fact, they are not

linki: Made, that's exactly what I said in terms of what I would expect a baddie to do.
And yeah, it's still 3-2, but all the talk has been on you and me.

linki: Sorry Zeek, I didn't mean to offend you or throw things back at you. I'm frustrated, and I'm trying to show you that "reads" are basically gut, not to throw suspicion at you. For example, my gut tells me that a baddie, especially one that is often engaged in the game and expected to be, would try harder to appear like that when a civvie too, so I can't just go and vote Made, even if people read him as a posting something that on surface level appears scummy. In that sense, I asked what have you done that makes you a civ.

Damn those linkis: TH, you're saying he's very different when bad and when good?

zeek wrote:
FZ. wrote:
In that first post, I said that contradictions are fine by me. I even defended llama when Epi made a case on his contradictions (or was it Boo who made it. I can't remember). Heck, I'm going to find that post. Because if we're going to vote based on contradictions, there's going to be a long line.

Wait for it
Sorry, I was skimming but thats not the impression I was getting. Anyway, you can say there's a long line but clearly not as glaring as the contradictions raised. Saying stuff like civs can be contradictory doesn't feel genuine. I don't agree that it's fine for them to be but even if it was, it doesn't make you a civ.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Yeah, I think you might be right. Made doesn't appear dead to me either.
I'm suspicious of him because he's alive, then :P He's made some strange statements as well, like the one Boom quoted, which strikes me as the experimental baddie Made typically is.

Nothing makes me a civ. What makes you a civ? Have you done something that is supposed to tell us you are? Because I haven't seen it yet. Basically, no matter how much people say otherwise, it all boils down to gut feelings. We try our best to "build a case", but as been the case with BWT (and I still think what he did with Russ seemed like something a civ wouldn't do, but I guess I am wrong), cases are only sometimes true. Still, it's all we've got. I think no matter what EPi and llama are, Epi specifically, built a case on me the best way possible. Too bad it's wrong, but I can't fault him. He's playing the game.

linki: Hi Made. Looks like it's going to be between you and me. Are you good?

linki: DH, I already said I think Russ' vote for me was opportunistic after he felt good about me. I doubt he actually followed every link Epi gave, and every accusation he pointed out, so going from seemingly trusting me, to voting me does not strike me as a civ behaviour

bea wrote:He made up an entire story about me based on nothing that has actually happened in the thread. His only other suspect is someone whom I believe is civ. So, yea- I don't have the greatest feels about him.

linki - OH. MY. GOD. I seriously just now caught that epi was teasing me about the typo of onion for opinion. I'm so amazingly lame sometimes. *heddesk*

linki again - yes - I know - I'm an idiot. I need to enlarge this screen. I swear the type gets smaller every day. It's hell to get old kids....

Okay, your answers have eased my mind a bit. What do you think about Russ?

Turnip Head wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
bea wrote:You shouldn't lynch me because despite boo's onion, I am a civ.
You have to admit though that there are a lot of layers to it.

I missed the onion. Thanks for the laugh

Turnip Head wrote:
FZ. wrote:MM, can you tell me again, why you voted for Epi? I guess that with Bea's threats, voting for her is risky, so before I vote, I want to make sure
I tried asking MM at the very start of the Day who he would be focusing on, but he ignored the question, made some posts that weren't relevant to his suspicions, then voted Epi (after specifically NOT voting Epi on Day 5). All this after saying he thought Kira was lying low and not following through on THOSE suspicions either. So... yeah. Not sure how much you're gonna get out of him here. Hope you have better luck than I did!

I think you should look into the case on Made if you want to give yourself the best chance at survival today.

Thanks, yeah, I remember.
I relatively know the case on Made. I don't know how I feel about it. I'm not very familiar with his game, and I think he can go either way. I get why what he said could be very suspicious, but I can also see someone who's not a kira say something of that sort as a strategy to keep everyone winning. He said he knew he was going to catch flack for it, and he said it anyway, so he wasn't being very careful. That said, you and I guess others have said he's more involved when he's a civ. Like I said, and Epi showed, when I'm a baddie, I try to be as involved as I am when a civvie, and I try to push my theories just as much, so I expect others to do the same. I've learnt that sometimes I expect too much. So yeah, he can be a baddie, and by the way it looks now, that's where my vote will go.

That said, I think Russ' vote for me was very opportunistic after spending most of the game feeling relatively good about me. So there's an option there too. Though I don't think it's going to be followed

linki: Bea, do you still feel Boo is bad?

MM, can you tell me again, why you voted for Epi? I guess that with Bea's threats, voting for her is risky, so before I vote, I want to make sure

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