The Syndicate

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: K4J: We went through hell together, my man. I mean this when I say it: you might be the best baddie team mate I've ever had. Period.

Awww. Thanks! I'm so glad I had the chance to be your teammate.
You are an awesome player. I have never seen a baddie so dedicated to playing the part of a civ and put themselves out there to the degree that you did, cover their tracks the way you did. You were fearless!

OMG!!!!!!!! WE WON.
This was such a fun game to play! Thanks for letting me sub in, Epi. I really enjoyed it. Makes me want to play more games.
Thanks to my wonderful teammates Eloh, MP, and of course JJJ who was extremely awesome. There's no way we could have won without him!

DrumBeats wrote:Luna is definitely friendly, but I'm unsure if it's vote means anything. The fact that we haven't lost yet implies that between our two remaining civs and Luna with our votes/roles we can pull this off.

DFaraday, I think it is a bit obvious now that you are my civ buddy, and 3J and K4J are scumbuddies based on last phase. Nijuu probably role copped 3J with snapshot and was confident he was getting a baddie. Mafia likely shot Nijuu at some recent point and already deduced him to be process.

How exactly does the last phase mean I am scum-buddies with JJJ?
I am not scum and I am having a hard time believing that these ideas of yours are genuine. You've been trying hard to paint me as suspicious, having problems with me being the last vote on scum -- when I have also been the last votes on town, you simply ignore those facts to state things in a way that paints the picture a certain way. I have already explained that due to unchangable votes, I prefer to withhold my vote closer to the deadline for any new revelation/discussion purposes. How is it that you have a problem with me being the last vote on Eloh and MP but don't have a problem with DF not voting either? It doesn't make sense.
I'd also like to hear how Niju used snapshot when snapshot was dead during her first suspicion of JJJ. Now, do I think JJJ is civ? No, but your suspicions seem to be desperate.

Sorry that I wasn't here sooner. I will be placing my vote on Niju. I stand by my suspicion of her from the previous day phase and the posts following it have only increased my suspicion. I don't like how she seemingly removed herself from the discussion table by writing up a post of suspicion and immediately voting for JJJ. I also think she relied a little too much on Llama and Mac's opinion to further justify her suspicions - and JJJ pulling that post from earlier in the game where Niju mentioned it possible being a curse only further makes this suspicion look fabricated.

Damn. I was hoping an element would be killed. Better than a civ being gone though. Do we have enough numbers to lynch a mafia today? I'm concerned that at this point civs cannot win the game at all, no matter what happens today???
Also...weed (which we lynched last phase) has voted for DF today.....whatever that might mean.

Voted Clucker

No, JJJ - I don't see any lapse in the logic but wanted to make sure that others didn't either in case I was overlooking something myself. I am now voting weed, too.

This is complicated, my head hurts. I guess we really should have taken a different approach with these elements in the beginning. I think I am following JJJ's logic and think it does make sense to lynch an element today, because the mafia wouldn't kill a civilian over the night - then the process would win? If I am understanding correctly & not missing anything. After that it would be best to lynch a member of the mafia, I believe? For now, I will withhold my vote to see if anyone raises a point that I haven't thought through/missed.

I wanted to break my post up into 2, so that hopefully people wouldn't see a large chuck of text and ignore it (not that people should be doing that especially at this stage of the game, but still).
So this has caught my eye:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Theory:

DB and niju are the Camerata. They're trying to generate negative press about me because they genuinely believe I am the Process, and thus lynching me would win them the game today.

Quite possible, I suppose. Considering I was suspicious of each of these individually.
But, what gets me is - why would the mafia think you are the process? If these two are the mafia, why would they think that JJJ is the process and not DF? Not K4J? Certainly they would need some reason to hold this belief.
If you are a civvie - why would you think that the mafia has a reason to believe you are the process? It just makes no sense.
Now, if you are the process - you might have reason to think that the mafia knows you are process because of the mafia's failure to kill two nights ago. Since the process is immune to night kills, my thinking is you are the process - and think that the mafia knows who you are because they tried to kill you and it didn't work.

Okay. I've been thinking about this a lot. Don't know that I've got things figured out, I would prefer people actually converse with me and respond to my post.

Both DrumBeats and Niju have been suspicious of me due to their more recent behavior.


First, there is DrumBeats. He began to catch my eye last day phase with the only response to the suspicion being cast against him with the defense that if he were mafia, the process elements would have been targeted sooner and more consistently. I have explained why I find this defense to be invalid; the mafia consists of a team, not a single individual. There would be more to consider within the mafia than DrumBeats' own personal thoughts on how the elements should be dealt with; such as those who are a threat to the mafia members survival. It is a group effort and the fact that DrumBeats writes it off as something very simple is suspicious, IMO.
When I began speaking on that, suddenly DrumBeats had come back into the thread the next day, with no comments on my growing concern of him, but instead a random ISO on my posts. That's fine. Everyone can look at my posts; I have nothing to hide. But, I found the timing very convenient. He'd not expressed any desire to look back at me nor any previous suspicion of me (please, correct me if I am wrong). But suddenly, when I have a problem with his posts - he is looking at mine. Now if it stopped there - it would be semi-reasonable.
However, I have a problem with the content in the ISO itself. DrumBeats analysis of my behavior came with many incorrect statements that if were true, would definitely be suspicious of me; but he stated things as facts that are clearly not, which I've addressed in my post here.
By no means am I saying that people shouldn't be free to suspect me, but considering the circumstances and incorrect statements found with his suspicious of me, I think that there is a problem there. There is one thing that makes me hesitate - DrumBeats said that he woke up early and was on his phone, so perhaps he was speeding through, not really being able to fully analyze things and just made a genuine town mistake. But, I would like to hear his response to this and judge from there.

Next, there is Niju. Now this is kind of difficult. Because, Niju seems to feel better about me than other players such as DrumBeats and JJJ, which naturally, makes me want her to be good.
But, the first thing that I noticed with Niju was that when JJJ said that Niju and I (K4J) were more likely to be the process; she blew off the idea - completely. Made it look like JJJ was making things up. But never did Niju seem to actually consider that JJJ was right in thinking I was the process. Instead, she dismissed his idea all together. She wanted to discredit him. It just came off weird to me. Don't get me wrong - I am not the process, but how does Niju know I am not? It seemed to me she was focused on rejecting the suspicion all together - that she wanted to discredit everything JJJ was saying. I mean when I read JJJ's claim, yes, I thought to myself - I am not the process. But - I definitely did consider, is Niju the process? I didn't outright object that there might be something to JJJ's thoughts. The fact that she did - makes me feel like it was kind of over-defensive.
Finally, this post:
I feel like Niju is too confident in what is going on, in this post and I think that is suspicious. I know you guys don't know me very well if at all, because this is not my home site and I play here rarely - but I have played a lot of mafia and I think this is a classic scum tell. It's just too aggressive at this stage. People should be confused - understanding that no, not everyone knows what's going on. I think Niju is trying to do whatever to ensure that she herself is not lynched and that this strong reaction is evidence of her panicking.


Now. I am open to the idea that I could be wrong. I am by no means sold. So please, if people can actually converse, and speak with me, that would be great.

Are you kidding? These results suck.
I have no idea who to trust, apparently there's only one person I can trust anyway. I'm at a loss for who that is at the moment.
Went ahead and voted for Fetch.

Welp. I was hoping to get some better feedback before people placed their votes, but I guess not.
Voting for Mac. I think he's likely mafia. DB as well.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

kneel4justice wrote:@DrumBeats - I vote towards the end of the day phase because votes aren't changeable. Where I come from, a lot of things change throughout the course of the phase, even in the final minutes of a phase, so I prefer to withhold my vote for that matter. So, expecting me to vote early isn't going to happen unless for some reason I cannot make deadline. That's really all I can say regarding the timing of my votes. I expressed my suspicion of Eloh in my first post, but a lot of people overlooked that post so it was hard to engage in any pushing without personal interactions to feel out. With MP, I admit that I was wrong but I stand by that he defended his change in Eloh well and made it believable - I don't think anyone would really disagree with this. I know that my vote for him came late and without much prior pushing of big suspicion but I had things to do and when I looked at the time, had realized I needed to vote before I missed deadline.

When you eventually did contribute your vote to the MP lynch, what was it specifically that inspired you to place your vote for him after having felt good about his explanation of his treatment of Elohcin?

I came into the game feeling good about MP because of the effort he had put forward during the first day phase; it seemed to me to be genuine scum-hunting. He explained his change in opinion of Eloh in a way that made it seem genuine, so I remained with my initial trust. As the game went on, MP's lack of participation generally made my trust of him fall because he was no longer doing the things that I initially found him to be civ for. Ultimately, the Snapshot/Scotty death/inconsistency in the Nutella read piled together to make me suspicious enough to vote for MP. With those seeming suspicious, I kind of reconsidered the fact that he could have been Eloh's teammate too.

DrumBeats wrote:

kneel4justice wrote:I'm out right now. Going to vote Eloh because she hasn't done anything to settle my initial suspicions.

Voted Eloh only when the other votes were already there. Despite strong suspicions of Eloh before K4J did not really do any pushing on her this phase. Instead K4J focussed posts on Nero on Day too, which could have been trying to set up the day 3 mislynch or make it happen in place of Eloh.

I did not "focus" posts on a particular player during Day 2. I addressed Nero in two different posts (here and here) and that is all. I addressed other players throughout the day as well.

DrumBeats wrote:

kneel4justice wrote:Voted for MP. Sorry, I'm out away from a computer and forgot about the game.

But I don't like that the previous post was her only post against MP. This vote was also at the end of the phase, just like the Eloh vote. However, looking at K4J's voting record, K4J voted in the middle of the day for most of the mislynches and elements. Definitely suspicious voting imo, not contributing to either scum lynch on the day of, but voting them when they're inevitable.

This is false.

Day 1; I had not yet replaced into the game.
Day 2; Eloh Vote: 7:35PM.
Day 3; Nero Vote: 6:59PM.
Day 4; Nutella Vote: 4:28PM.
Day 5; Voted Operator: 7:24PM.
Day 6; Voted MP: 7:52PM.
Day 7; Voted Creep: 6:53PM.
Day 8; Voted Gleam: 7:43PM.

I voted within a similar time frame (within the same hour) throughout the game, minus once (the Nutella vote) because I could not be there for deadline.

@DrumBeats - I vote towards the end of the day phase because votes aren't changeable. Where I come from, a lot of things change throughout the course of the phase, even in the final minutes of a phase, so I prefer to withhold my vote for that matter. So, expecting me to vote early isn't going to happen unless for some reason I cannot make deadline. That's really all I can say regarding the timing of my votes. I expressed my suspicion of Eloh in my first post, but a lot of people overlooked that post so it was hard to engage in any pushing without personal interactions to feel out. With MP, I admit that I was wrong but I stand by that he defended his change in Eloh well and made it believable - I don't think anyone would really disagree with this. I know that my vote for him came late and without much prior pushing of big suspicion but I had things to do and when I looked at the time, had realized I needed to vote before I missed deadline.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

kneel4justice wrote:I said what I said about MP because it was true. MP is one of the few players on this site that I know more than the others (because he played on my home site quite a few times). His style relates far more to mine than many others from this site - he appreciates the game very heavily, dives in immediately and posts an enormous amount. I expected more from him if he were bad - it would appear he did indeed fake his silencing and he doesn't strike me as the type of player to do that. I expected him to play differently. That's really all I can say about it.

What brings you to the conclusion that MP faked his silencing?

As a mafia role has been revealed to have been related to silencing, and MP himself were mafia makes me consider it more likely that that is where the silencing came from and that it was done on purpose by him in order to make it look like his D1 activeness was a threat to the mafia. In general, since MP was bad, though possible, I am more inclined to distrust that he was silenced by something other than mafia.

MacDougall wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Man this game is dead.

Whenenver y'all show up, I ask that you please do not place your votes until we've been able to have a discussion. It's a crucial phase obviously and we need to work together. If time is tight, then make your concerns heard tonight so they can be addressed well before tomorrow's deadline.

Look.

I have played almost all this game on my phone at red lights. I left my job and started a new one during this game, that I started as a late replacement. You know better than to carry me through as your major scum read based on how I have played because it should be obvious to you that I have been not entirely present. I don't believe that you have been genuine in your reads of me as nothing I have done has amounted to worthy of suspicion, hence why I've not been lynched. Even those who know me better haven't got enough suspicion of me to start a wagon rolling.

You killed Llama last night because you know if Llama and me remain around at crucial end game stage we're going to vote you out, and you came out today and changed your fake reads to try to shake me off my suspicion of you so you can finish the job and kill me tonight.

Asking me to reply to that randomly selected comment. There is nothing in that comment I can reply to. You called my day 6 "abysmal". There was nothing more or less abysmal about my day 6 than any other day. You were trying to provoke me and my failure to act on that provocation is the only reason you asked me to reply to it. I will not reply to it because I cannot. There is nothing in there that provokes discussion, only aggression and I won't fall into your game.

I would like to add though, that the underlined portion - is kind of a problem for me. A great lay low tactic for scum to use IMO. If you don't do anything - you can't really get caught. The fact you've kind of acknowledged that benefit of your absence is questionable for me.

nijuukyugou wrote: DFaraday
Day 1: zebra (3)
Day 2: misses vote
Day 3: Nero (4)
Day 4: nutella (2)
Day 5: Operator (5)
Day 6: misses vote
Day 7: misses vote

Never votes mafia, votes once for element. Misses three votes. Could be a candidate for inactive mafia if they missed their kill completely last night. Pretty unengaged regardless.

DrumBeats
Day 1: zebra (6)
Day 2: nutella (single)
Day 3: Nero (6)
Day 4: nutella (9)
Day 5: Operator (1)
Day 6: MP (1)
Day 7: Creep (1)

Votes for one mafia member (MP) and is first to do so. Looks decent. Two votes for Process elements. Avoids Eloh lynch both times (seals zebra’s lynch over Eloh Day 1). Not such a good look. Very doubtful Process, given his enthusiasm for lynching elements, but possible mafia given the Eloh avoidance.

Looking back at the voting records, trying to figure all of this out.

DF's voting record is obviously poor. While it makes me wonder if I have misplaced trust in him, I still cannot say that his actual posts have struck me as suspicious? I'll try and review his posts, but yeah.

Then there is DrumBeats. I hadn't realized that his vote was actually the determining vote in the Zebra lynch (wasn't in the game at the time). That does strike me as suspicious. With the MP vote, that does look good - but perhaps he saw where things were going and decided to throw it in to make up for his lack of votes against Eloh. I could see that making sense. The more I think about it, the "I would have killed process elements" as his only defense is bothering me.

MacDougall wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Man this game is dead.

Whenenver y'all show up, I ask that you please do not place your votes until we've been able to have a discussion. It's a crucial phase obviously and we need to work together. If time is tight, then make your concerns heard tonight so they can be addressed well before tomorrow's deadline.

Look.

I have played almost all this game on my phone at red lights. I left my job and started a new one during this game, that I started as a late replacement. You know better than to carry me through as your major scum read based on how I have played because it should be obvious to you that I have been not entirely present. I don't believe that you have been genuine in your reads of me as nothing I have done has amounted to worthy of suspicion, hence why I've not been lynched. Even those who know me better haven't got enough suspicion of me to start a wagon rolling.

You killed Llama last night because you know if Llama and me remain around at crucial end game stage we're going to vote you out, and you came out today and changed your fake reads to try to shake me off my suspicion of you so you can finish the job and kill me tonight.

Asking me to reply to that randomly selected comment. There is nothing in that comment I can reply to. You called my day 6 "abysmal". There was nothing more or less abysmal about my day 6 than any other day. You were trying to provoke me and my failure to act on that provocation is the only reason you asked me to reply to it. I will not reply to it because I cannot. There is nothing in there that provokes discussion, only aggression and I won't fall into your game.

This is the first post I have seen from Mac that actually makes me feel somewhat good about him (which actually kind of sucks because I'd like to have some stability in my suspicions rather than being completely lost lol). Still have concerns, obviously because one post out of the whole time he's been playing is not enough. But, I can kind of get what he's saying here. I'll be interested in hearing what JJJ has to say.
Regarding my thoughts on JJJ at the moment...I'm undecided. I find it hard to consider that he's actually mafia, when considering his voting record combined with the amount of effort that he's put into scum-hunting. I also think that the night-voting analysis makes him an unlikely candidate for the process. If he's a baddie of some sort, he's very impressive, I'll give him that. I don't quite know what to make of the Llama kill; I think that is a toss up in terms of what it means about JJJ's alignment.

DFaraday wrote:Those are good points about Ninja, though it's entirely possible for DB to be MP's teammate. I could definitely see MP taking a gamble like that. However, I also think it's more likely that Ninja is the Process than that DB is, so mathematically I find her more suspect. Honestly I've not examined K4J much at all, I just get a civvie vibe from him. I will review his posts later and see where I rank him.

What in particular do you find to be a good point against Niju? Because I am not understanding/seeing the case for Niju as mafia.

I'm trying to follow JJJ's suspicion of Niju, but I'm not quite understanding how Niju's voting for mafia members suggests that she is a mafia member herself? Obviously teammates vote for each-other, but looking at Niju's votes, those would have been rather excessive and unnecessary, IMO. I'm not seeing anything suspicious there and I am trying to keep an open-mind about everyone at this point. The posts from Niju as a whole have not stuck me as suspicious - I especially liked the voting analysis effort and found it rather helpful.

The only thing that has relatively bothered me about Niju is the disapproval of DrumBeat's action against the process elements. Because as I have stated before, it makes perfect sense from a logical standpoint to get rid of the elements IF the mafia and civs are both doing so. Because the mafia/civ ratio continues to stay the same while the process only loses its power; which helps boost its ratio since there are quite a few voting powers (unless I have something majorly mathematically mistaken?). So perhaps Niju, if you could address this - and explain if I am missing something in your thought process here?

Now originally, I was thinking DrumBeat's action against the process was a good sign in terms of him not being the process, as well as not being the mafia (because I didn't think a mafia would suggest that proposal; as it would be risky) but as the numbers dwindle down, I am starting to wonder if this is what he anticipated on people thinking. So, I am trying to consider all possibilities here. I do get a bit thrown off everytime he claims that if he were mafia - the elements would have been targeted sooner and consistently, because things are not that simple. That is an independent mindset; on a team you have to consider everyone's input, so I don't really count that as much of a valid defense.

Now my suspicion of Llama was wrong? Jeez. I really don't know what to think right now. We were doing so well at first. I'm at a loss of what to think ATM.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:K4J, I would like a response to this specific point; I feel it's the worst look for you in your MP interactions:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Spoiler: show

kneel4justice wrote:

nijuukyugou wrote:Checking in on phone (celebrating my brother's birthday; don't want to miss the vote, but I'd like to give proper attention to my guest and family). For what I've been able to pay attention to for the last couple of days, I'm gonna vote MP. When I flip-flop on him, he's almost always bad, and his going after nutella yet reluctance to vote her way from said suspicion looks like a baddie knowing to avoid a lynch. I know that's not an awesome, eloquent explanation for my vote, but phone typing sucks and party calls. I'll address other stuff when I'm able to be more attentive.

I would like to hear from MP about this Nutella change. To me it seems foolish for him to go throughout the course of the game suspecting and then change opinions when Nutella were going to be lynched, because the damage is already done. It would be a poor decision if scum. But I can't expect everyone to act how I would if I were scum in their position. I've been holding the mindset that MP would be trying harder if he were scum and that the silencing was real because I didn't see him as the type to cop out if he were mafia, but perhaps I've been too blinded by these expectations of him.

As the thread climate worsened for MP, particularly as people were asking questions about his treatment of nutella, K4J took part with this post. The highlighted portion is a little suspicious at face value to me -- I've seen baddies qualify a fallen read on a team mate in similar ways.

I said what I said about MP because it was true. MP is one of the few players on this site that I know more than the others (because he played on my home site quite a few times). His style relates far more to mine than many others from this site - he appreciates the game very heavily, dives in immediately and posts an enormous amount. I expected more from him if he were bad - it would appear he did indeed fake his silencing and he doesn't strike me as the type of player to do that. I expected him to play differently. That's really all I can say about it.

Ugh. The chances of mafia/process seemed so good.
I voted for Jerk.

nijuukyugou wrote:Gahhhhhhh!! I came into this thread and saw the clusterfuck of posts today and actually said out loud, "What the fuck is even going on?" My thoughts are jumbled, so this post may be a bit jumbled, too.

As far as vote records and thread behavior go, gleam, llama, and Drum catch my eye the most. gleam's vote record/behavior has been discussed at length, so I won't repeat it. llama's been voting JJJ for ages, but suddenly votes gleam because "his wagon isn't catching on." It is continually irritating to see llama and Mac stating a suspicion of JJJ without qualifying it beyond "he's bamboozling us!" or "he's butthurt!" when I and others besides JJJ have asked for further clarification. This is why no one is jumping on your wagon and you know it. JJJ's vote record and thread behavior have been pro-civ, which points to his being civ. Whatever you're "seeing" beyond this is not apparent. At all. Drum's insistence on finding elements rather than baddies for several phases (especially this crucial one), and his failure to vote Eloh early in the game, catch my eye in a bad way as I think about it more and more. I know he voted MP in his actual lynching, so that makes him look better than the others, but that could easily be bussing. What do others think? Am I missing something that should steer me away from him? Anyway.

I have enough suspicion of gleam to give him a vote over anyone else at the moment. My concern is the eagerness of people to vote him, as JJJ said, but then again, others appear to be hesitant, so...Yeah. Gonna vote gleam and hope for the best.

Linki - LOL @ JJJ. Dude, I'm almost as frustrated as you in that matter.

I am not sold on how focusing on elements is bad (I think it makes perfect sense from a logical standpoint, and not sure why others haven't seen this?), if you continue to scum-hunt and share opinions on players, which I believe DB has been doing. So I am not really bothered by this.

Well not that it matters anymore, but voting Gleam, in hopes he is indeed the process. I'll settle for him being mafia, though.

thellama73 wrote:

kneel4justice wrote:I'm having trouble accessing the site. Anyone else?
Llama, why did you vote for Gleam?

Because I can't get people to agree on a JJJ wagon, and Gleam has a shady vote record. An early defense of Eloh and vote for MP when no one else was considering such a vote makes it look like a strategic vote for future cover when MP flipped bad.

But, I don't think you have really tried to persuade people to join your suspicion of JJJ. It's been the same come in and vote for JJJ for a few phases in a row. I won't argue with your reasoning in suspecting Gleam, because I share the belief that it is suspicious. But, I do find it weird that now you've suddenly decided to vote elsewhere when you wouldn't really budge previously (minus, once, I think).

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:My main concern with an agleam lynch now is that Mac and llama have thrown in on it without contest. I do consider agleam to be within the POE and could live with this move, but I'd prefer a lynch of one of those two. I'm not sure there are enough votes left in the field for that to happen though, depending upon the Process elements and how niju/K4J feel about the scenario.

I have had my suspicions of Gleam. Those of which have mainly been focused around Gleam potentially being the process, due to the seemingly avoidance of voting for process elements. However, I was more inclined to believe Llama was the process, because at least Gleam was addressing his avoidance of voting for the elements, while Llama was just ignoring them.

But -- I looked at DrumBeat's case against Gleam and realized that I wasn't fully considering Gleam to be mafia because he had been among the earlier players to voice suspicion of MP so I thought they wouldn't be teammates. But I hadn't realized that Gleam hadn't actually voted for MP when the time came - so I do agree with the idea that this could have been an attempt for distance but when the time came, Gleam was unwilling to bus MP. That combined with the fact that Gleam did nothing substantial against Eloh makes Gleam a good candidate for mafia, too.

So, I cannot say that I am against a Gleam lynch. I will say that I am, too, bothered by the fact that both Llama and Mac are on this lynch, as they have been pretty unwilling to consider many other options this game besides a JJJ lynch - now suddenly they both are. With basically no explanation.

I'm wondering if Llama and Mac are the remaining members of the mafia, and know that Gleam is the process because they tried to kill him last night and he did not die. So now they are willing to place their votes somewhere else in order to get rid of the process, as they would need the process lynched to win.

Perhaps I was mistaken in the thought that Llama was more likely to be the process because he was ignoring the elements altogether, and instead Gleam is more favorable of being the process, as the process would be more careful than to outright ignore the elements - but instead try to make excuses to/talk around not voting them.

Afterall, I do think Llama also has good potential of being mafia. Because he never had anything to say about Eloh, and only good things to say about MP.

It's just...if Llama and Mac were indeed mafia together, that would have to be a suicidal move, to team up throughout the game like they have been doing (from voting JJJ to now voting Gleam, both with little to no actual reasons stated).

I'm having trouble accessing the site. Anyone else?
Llama, why did you vote for Gleam?

Mac, why did you vote Gleam?

Here.
Why is Gleam's vote on Fetch?
He said he was voting Mac.

Hi guys. Sorry for not being around, this Summer is hit or miss for me, depending on the day. I'll be sure to post tomorrow afternoon/evening.

Voted Operator.

Where is everyone? I'm voting for Creep.

Nice post on the night polls, JJJ.
I think I've read it correctly. I tried to look at Gleam's votes to see if there is anything suspicious in those. I don't think there is much positive, but nothing overly negative either, I guess. What do you think about Gleam's votes in particular, as an overall indicator of the likelihood of potentially being the process?

agleaminranks wrote:Argh. If JJJ is a baddy, he is playing one hell of a good civ game. That level of analysis is stupendous.

I'm actually surprised at the result of his analysis with me. Frankly, if I were outside looking in, I would be hella suspicious of myself. I misplaced faith in two people who flipped bad when I doubted them originally. That would just look like bad attempts at distancing, and I haven't participated in a successful baddy lynch yet.
I know I'm good, but if I didn't have that insight, I would think I were bad. Which, if I had to have a suspicion of JJJ, would be the only one I could make: it would be that if he were bad, he would know I wasn't, and could use that to his advantage if I were lynched. But I want to believe JJJ is good just by how useful his analyses have been as a whole. It just seems highly unlikely to me that someone would be willing to go to those levels if they were lying through their teeth.

I'm a little inclined to agree with his analysis at the end here. llama has been tunneling JJJ since Night 2, apart from the one vote on the nutella train. Mac has agreed with llama in a couple of posts and done somehow even less to support his votes. I don't like either of the two.

I'm voting Mac.

And you have ignored the discussion of the importance of voting process elements as well, so what is up with that? You seem to have avoided voting for the elements, just as Llama has.
Following the mafia's kill of a process element, you voted for me and said you'd explain further later. Your explanation can be found here. You say it was to gauge reactions, which is fine. But you also explain that you weren't sure of voting for a process element so you voted for me - even though you did not think I would be lynched. Those two things kind of cancel each other out IMO.
It comes out looking like you just didn't want to vote for a process element.....and if you don't have a real suspicion of anyone, why not vote an element? I'm not quite following your train of thought. I will say the fact that you outright said you didn't know how to feel about voting for an element makes it feel more genuine as opposed to avoiding it with bad intentions.
But now you are repeating and it makes me uneasy.......saying you're voting for Mac, while it is being discussed how dangerous the process elements are. I don't understand how people are ignoring this.

Looking back through Llama's posts...I think Llama could be the process.

Llama originally expressed interest in partaking in DrumBeat's plan (here) and then further expressed that it would be a good idea to lynch a process element to see what happens (here).
Following the mafia's killing of a process element, Llama voted for JJJ without any discussion of following DrumBeat's plan (here). Granted Llama was busy during away at a convention during this particular phase. I was originally pinged by this, but looking back I find it even more bothersome - since Llama actually expressed interest in DrumBeat's proposal.
It's starting to look like Llama wanted to appear ready to work against the process but when the actual time came, he wasn't willing to do so. Strikes me as someone who didn't want to lose their elements and thought since the elements are so mysterious and that there was no concrete information on what needed to be done with the elements, they could get away with it.
Llama has voted for JJJ, yet again...during the midst of a conversation that has centered around why it is important to lynch an element this particular day phase to avoid the process from getting too much power as far as voting ratios go.

Now, I think strategically, it would still be best to go ahead with lynching an element, in the event that this is wrong. But I do think once we get the ratio to an acceptable amount (which, someone might have to help with that math lol) Llama is a good candidate for the process.
If I am wrong about Llama being the process, I do think there is a chance that he is mafia. Looking back I did not see any comments on Eloh's behavior during her time of being alive. He also had good reads on MP and never changed those. Which looks bad at face value, now I think it would be stupid for him to avoid suspecting both of them, but not impossible.

It is 1AM and I can't focus, so I will be back tomorrow!

DrumBeats wrote:Seriously guys, let's not be dumb here. Based on the number of votes we know Process to currently possess and the 5/2/1 ratio we know to currently exist, we HAVE to lynch an element today.

If we were to misfire and hit town, we would be down to 4/2/1, which ordinarily isn't bad, but when the 1 at the end is guaranteed at least 3 additional votes through elements, it effectively becomes 4/2/4. If after that the mafia kills one of us instead of an element it would drop down to 3/2/4, EVERY TOWN AND MAFIA PLAYER WOULD HAVE TO VOTE THE SAME WAY IN ORDER TO STOP THE PROCESS. And that is assuming that the Process does not have any more latent vote power through elements we've yet to see.

Basically, if we mislynch a townie, today is auto lose for both the town and the mafia. If we lynch the mafia, we will be in relatively good shape, but would need to take out elements following that to stay alive. If we lynch the Process then we will likely be at MILO the next day due to mafia killing a civ. If we lynch an element, then we prevent autolose by Process votes, scum can't really target us tonight if they want a shot at winning because they're low enough in number at this point to not stand a chance against process alone. We NEED to back and forth lynch/shoot elements before acting elsewhere or it is very likely we will lose.

I was going to take back my distaste for lynching an element today, after reading further and actually realizing why an element has to go as far as the voting goes. I'm more inclined to follow this now than I was in my previous post to you about this subject.

thellama73 wrote:Hmm, not much there. The thing that strikes me about Gleam is an early defense of Eloh, and a solitary vote for MP during the Eloh wagon. Feels a little calculated.

K4J doesn't give me any reason to suspect foul play.

Faraday is notable for how he's avoided leaving conclusive clues one way or the other this whole game.

Right now, I would be up for a lynch of JJJ, Gleam, or Faraday. I think there's bound to be a baddie there somewhere. I'd love to get other people's reads on those three players.

I understood what you were saying about JJJ possibly trying to appear to be helpful (with the early ISO and then I felt he was asking a lot of questions as opposed to actually discussing things), but the more recent ISO's, which I've just skimmed briefly as I haven't caught up completely yet seem that they have actual opinion and possible conclusions. So, I can't say I am all that bothered with him in comparison to other players. He seems to be genuinely taking on both the mafia and the process.

Could you describe in more detail what you mean about DF? I actually like what I've seen from him. There was a point where I was suspicious of him, but while he isn't a big thread voice, I believe he's been a genuine kind of cooperative. Looking back at the tally, I suppose there could be something suspicious at face value, but his posts have not struck me as bad, tbh.

Gleam is someone I need to look back at. I think Gleam suspected MP early on, so that makes me feel good about not being a teammate of MP's. The suspicion of me about the silencing, while I felt it was a poor suspicion and vote, I think a mafia player would have come up with something better...perhaps Gleam is a process candidate, because if I remember correctly, Gleam voted me, expecting me not to be lynched, but didn't want to vote for an element.....those two things actually don't add up. I will look back at this.

DrumBeats wrote:Look at the OP:

The Process
The Process will manifest itself in multiple ways.
The Process itself is immune to Kill ( ), and must be lynched to die. If The Process is lynched, all residual processes will die.

This confirms that all Process elements are indeed aligned with the Process. Take that haters.

With one more process element down, I personally think we should pursue Creep today. That secret vote could mess with our lynches hard.

Did anyone specifically deny that the elements were aligned with the process? I don't recall that being a thing, but if it is, it might deserve some more attention.
Anyway, about lynching an element - you know, I was supporting your plan because it seemed most logical, but if you actually read what you have quoted - "If The Process is lynched, all residual processes will die" it would appear that if the player occupying the process role is lynched, the elements will disappear along with it. I would much rather do that.

Sorry I couldn't be around today. Going to try and catch up...
Glad to see people are alive and another element is dead.

Yesssss, Awesome!!!

I'll vote operator.

Voted for MP. Sorry, I'm out away from a computer and forgot about the game.

I think Llama and Mac have both been sliding by. I would like to hear more from them. It would not surprise me if at least one of them is bad, because as I have been struggling with suspicions, I think that could mean that the baddies are among these lower posters who are sort of breezing by.

So Snapshot is a role-checker? That gives me better reason to consider the suspicion it had of DrumBeats. It suspected MP as well? When was this? I need to go see. Considering MP's lack of participation and Scotty's death, he might be a more favorable lynch than DrumBeats..especially since I think while Snapshot is a role-checker, it could still serve as an agenda to help the process survive, which would explain a faulty case against DrumBeats, hoping we would listen to it.

Voting Snapshot.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

kneel4justice wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I have asked a lot of questions. Someone has to try and motivate some content into this thread of 900 posts on Day 5. K4J, what questions have I asked that you'd say have "obvious" answers beyond the one we just spoke of earlier on this page?

There are a lot of players that I don't feel I have a good read on because I haven't seen enough material from them and wish they were being more participant, so I can appreciate that.
I just noticed when you were asking me questions - I thought the answers were fairly obvious (maybe they were just to me because they were in my head). First it was about why I did not think Eloh and Niju were teammates, I felt Niju's posts towards Eloh had given an obvious answer to that, and since you ISO'd those, I expected you would understand why I had said that. Then there was today, which was not actually just your question about why I did not think you were the sockpuppet, but also about the ISO having an agenda towards DrumBeats is something I felt too was obvious, as I believe you yourself held that same opinion.

The portion I highlighted is itself perhaps the most important reason for my questions. Even if I suspect I already know what someone's answer is going to be when I ask a question, I still must ask it -- particularly when I have taken a clear stance in the thread that is later shared by someone else. I have to assess everyone who is taking any manner of stance to judge whether an authentic thought process led to it, instead of people merely adopting the ideas presented first by other people. In many cases this means people adopting ideas I put forth first, because I tend to be someone who puts a lot of stances/reads/theories into the game. Moreover, in the event my reads turn out incorrect, answers I get to those questions can prove valuable later when retroactive analysis is needed. It's a way of forcing players to take personal responsibility for the thoughts they express in the thread instead of hiding behind the more vocal player's contributions (often mine).

Fair enough. I am just the type who prefers discussion as opposed to just questioning.

I've got to go. Went ahead and voted Operator because I do think the elements are the best place to vote now strategic-wise, and I do think Snapshot is the element providing the most insight into the process so it's better to keep that around for now in case it provides more information later on. I'd like to discuss more with players, hopefully more material can be posted within the time frame of the next vote

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I have asked a lot of questions. Someone has to try and motivate some content into this thread of 900 posts on Day 5. K4J, what questions have I asked that you'd say have "obvious" answers beyond the one we just spoke of earlier on this page?

There are a lot of players that I don't feel I have a good read on because I haven't seen enough material from them and wish they were being more participant, so I can appreciate that.
I just noticed when you were asking me questions - I thought the answers were fairly obvious (maybe they were just to me because they were in my head). First it was about why I did not think Eloh and Niju were teammates, I felt Niju's posts towards Eloh had given an obvious answer to that, and since you ISO'd those, I expected you would understand why I had said that. Then there was today, which was not actually just your question about why I did not think you were the sockpuppet, but also about the ISO having an agenda towards DrumBeats is something I felt too was obvious, as I believe you yourself held that same opinion.

agleaminranks wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'm not averse to the notion of lynching an element. The town win condition clearly states a need to "destroy the Process", and having these elements available in the lynch poll would seem to indicate there'd be a valid reason to lynch them. It's crappy that we don't actually know what we're stuck choosing between Snapshot and Operator, both mysteries -- and I maintain that the name of the role is meaningless, that has had no bearing on the abilities attached to them so far (Young Lady has a ghost, Cell has no real vote, Weed has a negative vote, etc... it's all quite random). I don't think it should be Luna since that's not even one of the elements in the OP.

If we think about it in terms of the actual thread content provided by each, I'd suggest Snapshot seems less trustworthy than Operator given its push against DrumBeats. That strikes me as self-serving and pro-Process.

I'm still unsure as to whether it's a good idea to go after the Process elements pro-quo or not. Seems to me like the Process elements are only showing up a few at a time and are infighting, providing misinformation, possible misinformation, and steering the thread in all sorts of ways. It's a lot to take in.

At the same time, only one person has been nightkilled per night, people who I'm assuming were civilian and killed by Mafia members.

While you're not wrong about the win condition, and knowing Epi, I'd say there's something significant to not only that but also all of the Element interactions as well, it's not going to mean much if there aren't any civilians left at the end.

Point being, the Process' elements seem so tangled up with each other that I see them as less a threat than the Mafia. I think it would be in the civilians' best interest to focus on baddie hunting until they are all gone and we can cooperate on eliminating the Process, whatever form that may take.

I'm also open to other opinions if someone can give a reasonable enough explanation as to why it would be in the civilians' favor to target the elements of the Process first.

In theory, if the mafia and town were to cooperate - it would actually make most logical sense to get rid of the process elements first. Though, this would have to be under the assumption that the elements need to be killed/lynched in order to defeat that faction. But, if the mafia is killing elements, and the thread is lynching elements, the mafia is not killing civs, and the civs are not mis-lynching each other. Thus, when the elements are gone - the mafia and civs would be at the same number that they are currently. No worse than they are now - only better as the factions would not have to deal with the threat of the process. That is why it might be smart to be lynching the elements as opposed to trying to lynch the baddies. However, the problem with this is - do the elements really need to be killed or lynched to defeat the faction. It seems weird, and I disagreed with that idea - but the recent snapshot posts with other users has made me more inclined to consider the possibility.

Someone who I've been surprised with this game is Llama. I expected more from him because the games I have played, I recall him being more towards the center of attention. Unfortunately I am not sure how much of that actually comes down to alignment or comes down to time availability. I do wonder if the quick vote for JJJ was to try and steer the town away from the idea of lynching an element.
And that is not actually against the suspicion of JJJ, because I have noticed JJJ asking a lot of questions - some which I find myself thinking the answers are obvious, thus making me wonder if Llama was correct about the helpful persona.

nijuukyugou wrote:Checking in on phone (celebrating my brother's birthday; don't want to miss the vote, but I'd like to give proper attention to my guest and family). For what I've been able to pay attention to for the last couple of days, I'm gonna vote MP. When I flip-flop on him, he's almost always bad, and his going after nutella yet reluctance to vote her way from said suspicion looks like a baddie knowing to avoid a lynch. I know that's not an awesome, eloquent explanation for my vote, but phone typing sucks and party calls. I'll address other stuff when I'm able to be more attentive.

I would like to hear from MP about this Nutella change. To me it seems foolish for him to go throughout the course of the game suspecting and then change opinions when Nutella were going to be lynched, because the damage is already done. It would be a poor decision if scum. But I can't expect everyone to act how I would if I were scum in their position. I've been holding the mindset that MP would be trying harder if he were scum and that the silencing was real because I didn't see him as the type to cop out if he were mafia, but perhaps I've been too blinded by these expectations of him.