The Syndicate

S~V~S wrote:All the chatty people are dead

QFT tbqh

Well well well. Finally some discussion.

K4j I did not give up I truly just don't have time to defend myself today. Sorry if I sound desperate but I'm desperate to stay alive in all games whether civ or baddie, I hate being lynched if I feel I have valid reasons NOT to be. I legitimately do not understand why I got so many votes today. It is simply because no on else was discussed, the baddies saw an easy opportunity, and wanted me out while I was still somewhat suspicious. I have been a helpful civvie and the baddies are threatened by that.

Also, I looked at the votes and realized that there's simply not a likely possibility i can form a majority vote against anyone to save myself. I don't have the time so yeah I guess I was forced to give up. Dunno how I can sound desperate and like I'm giving up at the same time though.

Yes but no ones given a specific reason for finding me suspicious. Epi thought my vote for FH was suspicious but no one else has really cited that. No one has cited my tone as being suspicious either. Guess I just want people to explain what they see in me.

Nope. I have no idea why I survived. Thanks for asking though

Interesting, Kate and k4j, that that was the only thing I said that you both thought was worth commenting on.

I really wish I was able to be around and give more detailed defenses and work this out with you guys, I hate the thought of being wrongfully lynched as a civvie,especially since I feel like not much will be learned from my death. but I simply don't have time right now. There is just not enough hours in a day :P

When I'm gone, I hope that the civvies do not give Kate full civ cred just because she voted Dom two days in a row. I can see her throwing her teammate under the bus, especially in a one mafia game setup.. Don't want people to forget that.

I also find it suspicious that no one tried to get to the bottom of what happened yesterday when Dom was lynched even though I had more votes. Dont people normally ask "TH, do you know why you survived?" None of that here. Just people voting for me without question. Which again seems like a baddie move.

Anyways, I'm suspicious of k4j. I think if he was a civvie he'd be more interested in talking to me directly about my behavior and things that I've done in the game in order to form his opinion about me. Instead he's only asked other players for their thoughts on me while not giving his own opinion. Testing the waters to see if there was enough suspicion on me to get me lynched.

Man. The votes against me honestly look like you guys have no logical reason to be suspicious of me. Just taking advantage of my name being tossed around to not discuss other suspects instead. If I do end up being lynched, I hope those that voted against me are held accountable for their votes. I'm being voted for out of convenience and because it means we don't have to talk about other players.

I did not kill Epignosis. Much as I may have wanted to :P

It's also silly I think to try and use the timing of my LD statement against me. I made statements for the LD before the one you're talking about, and have been a major proponent of sharing information with him from the very beginning. You'd have to argue that I was being coy about helping the LD if you were going to use the timing against me. The timing of me making that statement is directly related to SVS and Dom making those statements right before I did. So you could argue that the timing has nothing to do with me and everything to do with SVS and Dom.

Roxy, what's your case against me? Is it just my vote for FH? Because Timmer voted for FH too but you have him a complete pass. Are you suspicious of my tone? What would you argue that my tone has been this game, and how has it been different from my tone in other games?

Also, frankly I don't see how I could be bad at this point. If I was on the baddie team with Dom I could have voted for Epignosis and Dom could have as well. I'd like someone to make a logical case for how that lynch played out from the perspective of me being a baddie. It doesn't make sense at all to me.

I think the baddies are just afraid of letting me hang around, and want to take advantage of the fact that suspicion of me hasn't completely dissipated yet.

I disagree Lizzy. Leaving statements for the LD gives him options to check. Otherwise he would have nothing to check. He can use the info he receives without outting himself. It will let him know which people to trust and which people are untrustworthy. Would you rather people not leave him statements, and negate his power completely?

Rest in peace Epignosis, you crazy sonuvabitch. And rest in peace, boo. I'll miss your take on the game

Welcome Nevinera! I like your plan to help the LD but I'm not sure that your proposed statements are checkable. I have no way of being sure of this, because the hosts won't give us a clear answer. I don't mind doing it but I have a feeling it won't be allowed because it directly reveals alignment. There are also ways I can see where the information gleaned from your proposed statements might not be entirely helpful for the LD anyway.

I have no idea what to make of timmer now. My theory that he slipped up is largely invalidated if his explanation for why he did so is true. I just... I mean his story is so bizarre. Skimming the thread and missing a post or two is one thing, but missing entire chunks of important game content is another thing entirely. Especially when he was able to find his own name in boo's post to reply to, but somehow he missed everything around it going on related to Dom's lynch? Whatever the case, his explanation makes me not want to lynch him in case he's telling the truth about what happened, and it also makes me think he didn't have anyone else behind the scenes that was able to set him straight. Which is exactly what I would expect a baddie-Timmer to be able to manipulate me into thinking and believing. He is exactly the kind of player who could make a stupid slipup and then afterwards find the exact right way to convince me that I'm wrong. I'd like to let it go for now and look elsewhere, but at the moment I don't really have any strong pings. I think Dom's teammates were lying low or trying to do some misdirection. So many players did not participate during the first two days.

Going to bed without reading the lynch post still? And how did you miss all the posts that came after it, even though you replied to one of the posts from directly after the lynch? Do you even read the thread bro? :P

Uh, what?

Timmer, in your posts at 9:58pm and 10:10pm PST, being approximately 12 minutes apart from each other and coming approximately 56 minutes after the lynch post was posted, you clearly missed that Dom was lynched and revealed to be a baddie. You did not use the knowledge that Dom was lynched to shape the ideas and suspicions that you made in your two posts. I see exactly what boo was seeing there, and even though his comment was a little sarcastic and quippy, it's possible he was just trying to point something out to you. Something that I believe might be a slipup.

So I wish that the above was the one post you had translated into fun noir-babblespeak, Timmer. Your post, as is, reads way more mean-spirited than Boo's post, and for basically no reason, something you could have masked quite well with your noir-ish persona. I know you have a thicker skin than you're letting on right now. So I'm left wondering why you chose this specific post to break character and act frustrated. But hey, maybe that quip from boo was the straw that broke your camel's back for you, for some reason. Maybe your reaction to boo is genuine. But either way, you go from pouncing on his remark and taking personal offense to it, to implying you should just lie low and not post because of how you are being treated when you speak. Which, logically speaking, is a huge leap for you to make. Then you try and tie that into how people approach your actions in the game, which is completely unrelated to your anger at boo. Yet you connected the two with nothing but emotion. Emotion that you hadn't used in the game until now.

Tell me Timmer. If you knew that Dom was lynched, why do your current thoughts on baddie hunting turn toward boo and Epi, of all people? What logical sense does that make in a world where Dom is revealed publicly to be a baddie? Epi gunned hard for Dom, and boo voted for Epi.

Your suspicions don't take into account Dom being revealed to be bad at all, and I think it's because you are his partner. You did not realize you would have to switch up your suspicions now that Dom's role was revealed.

And I think you're trying to sweep that slipup under the rug by acting really angry about it.

With this newfound interest in Timmer, in the wake of the Dom lynch, I thought I'd remind the LD (and everyone else too, I guess), that I posited this theory earlier today:

Turnip Head wrote:Timmer and Dom are teammates. Timmer voted for FH to save Dom.

That is a theory. I can see how it could be true. Maybe the LD could figure it out tonight, if s/he is curious.

Now, at the time my statement was ridiculed by Epignosis because checking it for truth would not directly give the alignment of either Timmer or Dom, as there are civvie ways to be teammates in this game. This was by design when I wrote that statement, because I am under the impression that LD statements CANNOT directly reveal the alignment of the player in question.

But now that Dom has been lynched and revealed to be bad, the LD could still check the above statement, since it does not directly reveal alignment. Depending on what answer the LD got, be it true or false, the LD could then deduce, quite easily, the alignment of Timmer. (Epignosis was correct that the second half of that statement is not checkable, and should not be checked. It just supports the theory laid out in the first statement.)

I will also provide a similar statement about me and Dom, just in case the LD is more curious about me than he is about Timmer:

Turnip Head and Dom are teammates.

Of course, the LD should check whatever statement he wants to, I'm just providing some options that I think would be useful. The LD needs to be careful about how he uses any information he receives, because the baddies will be on the lookout for anyone acting like they have info. Use the information to guide your suspicion and thoughts. Do not rely solely on the information you have, because the baddies will be perceptive of when that information is being used. And they will kill you for it.

Epignosis. You insist at only looking at my posts from the point of view that I'm bad. It is like, Day 1 rolled around, you mentally made a note "I think TH is bad", and proceeded to read and react to all of my posts with that thought in your head. I'm not surprised by this, you did the exact same thing to me in the WWE game where we were both civvies, and I've seen you do it to other players as well. In WWE, you never once looked at how my actions could be coming from a civvie perspective, and it caused you to disagree with me at every turn. You are doing the same thing to me now. You are only looking at my posts from one perspective, that I'm bad, which allows you to draw certain conclusions about me. If you looked at my posts from the perspective that I'm a civvie, you would find all sorts of other subtexts in my posts that would allow you to see how I'm not bad. It is important, in any game where you are a civvie, to consider the actions of other players both from the perspective that he or she is a baddie as well as from the perspective that they're a civvie. You are too stubborn to do that. It makes it easy for the baddies to agree with you, though.

Epignosis wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:I've never been lynched as a civvie before in all my time playing mafia. This will be a first. Wish I had been able to be around to defend myself. And I wish the days were not so short. Same thing happened to me in CAH. I will probably not sign up for a speed game again, the pace messed with how I play the game.

Don't vote for someone and give a reason that you yourself is guilty of.

Don't tell me how to play. :P I thought I already responded to that, but you keep using it against me. So I'll try to be as clear as possible for you.

• I made a post about Dom. Kate and FH used my post to vote for Dom themselves.
• I thought this was suspicious, especially coming from FH, who I usually see as an individual thinker who offers a lot of her own thoughts.
• I voted for FH as a direct reaction to her vote for Dom.

Now, on the surface, the two votes appear similar. FH voted for Dom second, I voted for FH second. This is true. You can read hypocrisy into my vote, if you only look at it on a surface level, like you have done. But I did not vote for FH simply because she was the second voter for Dom. She could have been first, third, fifteenth, last, and I still would have thought that her vote was suspicious. I expected more from her if she was a civvie, and because I did not see more from her, I thought she was bad. I was wrong, but that was my thought process.

Now, moving away from my Day 1 vote a bit, and into what just happened on Day 2.

Epi, if I were on a team with Dom, you can bet the farm that we would have been talking behind the scenes during this lynch and figuring out how to save ourselves. As boo said, there was a very easy solution to my problem, if I was bad. I could have just voted for you. Dom could have done the same, but I assume he didn't vote for anyone because he was happy to see me lynched, since I would have flipped civ and that could have bought him some street cred. I think he was waiting to see where I placed my vote before he placed his. But once I didn't vote, he was fine with me being the one with the most votes.

My point is, if I was bad, you'd probably be dead right now.

I've never been lynched as a civvie before in all my time playing mafia. This will be a first. Wish I had been able to be around to defend myself. And I wish the days were not so short. Same thing happened to me in CAH. I will probably not sign up for a speed game again, the pace messed with how I play the game.

Wow I guess I missed the vote while typing up a defense of myself. Fat lot of good my words will do me now :P

Epignosis wrote:Nice vote, lady!

See, my work is in exposin' the hypocriticals.

Sra. Tildes said she thought Dom was a bad man, but didn't vote him, see? Instead, poor Highflyers took the fall.
Turnips voted for Highflyers for a reason that he himself is guilty of.
Dom accused me of cheatin' the lie detector man when he himself hadn't said a word anyone could measure one way or another.

Dat's my summary for you bums who don't wanna do no readin'.

If I was bad, why wouldn't I have just voted Dom yesterday? I had already made a post about him. Could have done it in a heartbeat.

Don't really have time right now to make any in depth arguments. Sorry I missed your post Roxy. You did not bring up any new points against me that I hadn't already defended against. And I talked about the LD thing because I had something to say on the matter. If someone had brought something else up worth talking about, I would have talked about that too. But we got through this day without a lot of discussion of suspicions, which is not my fault.

Epi, stop trying to bully Dom into voting for me.

As for posting those quick checkable statements in the format that SVS and Dom used before me, well... If I hadn't done that, I'd be getting called out for not doing so, probably right about now. :P

I generated discussion about the LD as well, I just don't sound like a broken record about it like SVS does.

Having just been the LD recently, I know it is almost impossible to find checkable statements within normal mafia discussion. People post theories and thoughts which cannot be checked for veracity. I know that I sure wished someone had helped me out a little bit when I was the LD. Some days, no one posted anything checkable. Sometimes I had to check statements that I wrote myself about other players.

So I will continue to help the LD by providing statements he can check, be they about me or about the other players in the game. It is up to the LD to choose which statements will give him the information that he wants.

I suspect boo for his post where he tried to link agleamin's kill to either me SVS and Dom, or Epi trying to think like us. Boo used agleamin's death as a catalyst toward discussing the same players we were already talking about, and in his post he only considered those specific players as making the kill. For his analysis of the kill to work properly, boo would have to either assume that Epi was right about the 3 players he called out, or that Epi is a baddie who is completely in control of his team's night actions. I think boo dropped that post in there so that people could make the conclusions he wants them to, to try and get players thinking in a specific direction. I did not kill agleamin and I don't think SVS, Dom, or Epi did either. I think boo might have, though.

I do not have BTSC with SVS.
I do not have BTSC with Dom.
If they are civvies, then we are on the same team. If they are not civvies, I am not on the same team as them.
I have no knowledge of SVS's role.
I have no knowledge of Dom's role.

Now that that's out of the way! It's interesting that Epi uses WIFOM (saying "I wouldn't do that") to argue against boo's point that he killed agleamin because it's something he normally wouldn't do. That qualifies as missing boo's point entirely. I did not kill agleaminranks. I am not on a team that killed agleaminranks.

All this said, I am still not actually suspicious of Epi, I just think he's completely on the wrong track. Which seems more like a civvie-Epignosis move and less like a baddie one. Anybody have any other suspects?

All that story needs is a savvy editor and maybe a new third act. The ending was so obviously just a setup for the zombie-ninja-dinosaur and Batman team-up sequel.

Rest in peace, agleaminranks.

Well, that is a truly bizarre way for me to play if I was a baddie with Dom and SVS in that scenario. I can think of about a thousand different ways for how a baddie-TH could have played that better with his mafia pals baddie-SVS and baddie-Dom. It's Night 1, for goodness's sake. We need to give the game time to breathe. It is not likely that the baddies have made connections as obvious as the ones you are finding.

So you think that I accused Dom, and then once people agreed with me, I tried to save him?

I already admitted to hopping on a bandwagon, just a different one, and for different reasons. So, not sure what you're accusing me of.

And expressing suspicion of Dom is different than voting for him. I was decidedly against voting for him not much longer after that post of mine that you quoted. Forgive me if I didn't hop on the bandwagon that other people formed out of my post. That was just me thinking through a suspicion, and others latching onto it.

And yes, when the highest vote-getter receives 3 votes, the bandwagons just get smaller.

FH agreed with Kate, who in turn agreed on a small thought I had, giving no analysis of their own to go with it. That's the definition of hopping on a bandwagon.

And lol @ putting me and SVS both in your mafia.

And you have been scolded repeatedly for expressing your individuality. :P

But in the situation I was in, the choices were to either hop on the Dom bandwagon, or hop on some other up and coming bandwagon that made sense to me. I did what felt right at the time. I do not know Dom's role. But the case against Dom did not sway me, so I voted the other way.

The second part of that statement just supports the theory laid out in the first part. The LD does not have to check both sentences. And he does not have to check anything I tell him too. Just trying to help him out, if he finds himself wanting for things to check.

And yeah, I hopped on a bandwagon too. Everybody's gotta. But I laid out why I was hoppin' on it, brief as my explanation may have been at the time. FH didn't really say why she was hoppin' on, which was one reason I suspected her. On Day 1, sometimes that seems like a lot.

Back in the Lostpedia days, this is usually where the thread devolved into a bunch of "I'm a civvie!" statements from everybody for the LD to check. As far as I can tell, this has recently been discouraged from happening, even by adding rules on how the LD can use their power. In WWE, I was not allowed to check a statement that directly revealed a player's alignment.

So then, it would be helpful to our LD I think, if we phrased our theories in the form of statements, which the LD can use to check the truthiness of.

SVS has done this but only in statements that involve herself, but they mostly look checkable, except for her "I am not bad" statement, which I do not believe is checkable, but I'd like to be proven wrong.

Timmer and Dom are teammates. Timmer voted for FH to save Dom.

That is a theory. I can see how it could be true. Maybe the LD could figure it out tonight, if s/he is curious.

S~V~S wrote:In any case, I am pretty much not addressing him while he is talking in jargon. i think it is an evasive manuever.

Saying that Epi's slang speech is an evasive maneuver in order to get out of talking to him? Now who's evasively maneuvering?

I'm totally teasing SVS, you don't have to answer this question. It was made in jest. But I do think you're being too hard on him. He is only slightly less comprehensible than English-speaking Epignosis :P

Yes I have to agree. Being the LD is a lot like doing homework

I don't agree with your reasons for being suspicious of Epi's slang, but I understand them. He should stop if it hinders him from making a checkable statement. But I don't think it does.

I don't know. I did not personally ask the hosts that question. But if LD statements work anything like they did in the WWE game, then yes that statement would be checkable.

"Explaining his motivations" just sounds like me giving my opinion of Epi. Not sure what to tell ya. I'll probably be explaining a lot of motivations this game, in that case.

Epi can still make a checkable statement in his noir babble speak. I guess what I'm standing up for here is Epi's right to amuse himself. Don't make him stop just because there's an LD? He can still say something checkable.

Right, and I feel like I answered that. It doesn't change my mind and I explained why.

Um... because you keep asking me to?

^ Should be "while never telling a lie" tbh

S~V~S wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:I think he's just having fun.

Even with an LD in the game?

I've been the LD in a game where Epi was a civvie, he did not go out of his way to drop any checkable statements for me. But that was not something I considered when reading his posts this game.

I think if Epi needed to say something the LD would benefit from, he would. Right now he's just questioning people for reactions, not avoiding any truths or lies. Not to mention, Epi has made it a point of saying before that he's won as a baddie while ever telling a lie. So there's that.

I think he's just having fun.

I only think Timmer is bad if Dom is bad as well. That's the only reason I can think of a non-civ Timmer to vote the way he did.

But I know nothing about either of them.

S~V~S wrote:Do you agree with Epignosis in thinking i am Doms teammate?

No, I don't agree with Epi about that. I don't have much of a read on Dom, but I think he might be civvie. I think maybe you thought that about Dom as well, SVS, and you were maybe still okay with him being lynched.

So it looks like Epi and I have different theories about you. But to be fair, that is only ONE of my theories about you. Despite what my posts may say, I'm keeping an open mind about you so far. Just trying to think of everything.

And if FH had flipped bad, you'd be hailing Timmer as a hero right now. But FH was good, which allows you opportunities to plant doubt about Timmer. I don't find him suspicious for his vote though.

S~V~S wrote:And if i am one of those baddies who was just peachy, wouldn't I have anticipated this reaction?

I don't know. I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out right now by grilling you Was this a planned move from baddie-SVS, or a gut play from civvie-SVS? That's the decision I'm trying to make in my mind. Talking about it helps me figure that out.

You're right Epi. I completely misread what you were getting at. I'll put a correction in tomorrow's paper. Bossman ain't gonna like this...

When you say Hedge, do you mean FH? Dom defended Hedge, but it was FH who was lynched not Hedgie.

If that's the last minute run you are referring to, I think it was people making a gut call against FH's agreeableness, once they saw that the Dom case was so weak. That's my take on it anyway. I don't want to speak for k4j or timmer. I can say that, for myself, it worried me that there was no viable alternative to lynching Dom yesterday. No one had campaigned hard against any other player, which told me that the baddies were probably just peachy with Dom being lynched.

Epi, you said you didn't notice Lizzy's self-vote until after Dom voted for her too. Can't you see how Dom could have missed Lizzy's vote well? He even said he was in a hurry at the time. Lizzy never explicitly stated her vote was a self vote, and so someone who was skimming and not looking at vote tallies could have completely missed it. The suspicion against Dom seems it can mostly be explained by the him not paying as much attention as he should have. I think you might be reading too much into it.

Now, the case you're starting to develop on SVS's wiffle-waffling during those events, and that statement you pulled of hers towards the end of the day: "I assume Dom is being lynched without me" ; this is maybe something I can take to print. I knows a story when I smell one. This one smells like murdah and handwringin, and cream cheese.

When SVS said that, I immediately felt like we were being led to a Dom lynch while SVS could wash her hands of it.

linki: SVS has explained her reasons for saying that, somewhat. Still not sure why you felt the need to say it.

Seems ta me we shouldn't expect our hosts to be very forthcoming this time around.

I also think we aughta try and stay away from tied lynches if we can help it.

Oops. RIP FH.

I'm voting for Flyin High. I agree with k4j, she was too quick to hop on the Dom bandwagon.