The Syndicate

I like mafia games with recurring characters. This'll be exciting!

G-Man wrote:Voting is over. In one last surprise twist, METALMARSH89 has been voted MVP of the game. Congratulations!

Thank you for the votes everyone! Most importantly, I think we did a good job of putting a team effort into this one. Go team!

Was there a Spectator Chat for this game?

DrWilgy wrote:I'm curious. Why was I killed... Twice?

Looks like Epignosis killed you Night 1, then he killed you again Night 3.

But the second time, he tried to kill Triple-J, whose role redirected the kill to you.

I used PoE in Recruitment Mafia before it was cool.

Quin wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hell, without PoE we would have probably lost this game to reywaS instead.
I'll take solace in the fact that I actually caught a baddie there.

Anyway, great games all around. Thanks for being a good sport Jay and pouring your heart into it yet again. Thanks Golden for killing Epignosis (that was yuuge). Sorry Quin for wrongly lynching you twice in this game. I think this is our first game together, so I'll keep this in mind for the future.

Thanks for the game G-Man. I do think this game was a tough one for the civilians, bu we certainly could have done it, and I think we performed better than the average group of players would have done.

We've played together like 5 times I guess I'm not very good at making an impression.

Oops, I meant to say first time playing for any length of time. I know we played together briefly in the other game and I've hosted you twice. :P

Golden wrote:
Ricochet wrote:No, we're talking non-civilian forces. What part of there being a serial killer was "invisible" and "uncommon"?
Unless the setup is open, all roles are invisible. I've never seen someone have 'civilian btsc' with a SK before, so that's very uncommon.

I won this game by getting myself mechanically cleared by inh because he thought he had btsc with a civilian. I mean, really, what is anyone going to do with that? It's not me corrupting a system through my wiles - it's the fact I got a role that no-one could predict.

The further you get from fully closed role madness, the more effective PoE becomes.

Another question for inh. With leetic never posting in the game thread but sending in the kills, did he also never show up to the chatroom? What went on in that Day 2 - Day 3 phased where he kinda disappeared?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hell, without PoE we would have probably lost this game to reywaS instead.

I'll take solace in the fact that I actually caught a baddie there.

Anyway, great games all around. Thanks for being a good sport Jay and pouring your heart into it yet again. Thanks Golden for killing Epignosis (that was yuuge). Sorry Quin for wrongly lynching you twice in this game. I think this is our first game together, so I'll keep this in mind for the future.

Thanks for the game G-Man. I do think this game was a tough one for the civilians, bu we certainly could have done it, and I think we performed better than the average group of players would have done.

Golden wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)
According to the host post, you did assassinate Jay.
But only to be the last man standing.

Never mind, I read the posts out of order.

Curse you and killing your BTSC mate.

Golden wrote:Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)

According to the host post, you did assassinate Jay.

Question about the town win condition. What is it and did we achieve it?

Golden wrote:Lol at rico, epi and inh still moaning about the PoE.

The PoE is why I was able to win. It's why I killed epi (I figured Wilgy would be lynched and one of the two had to be the last mafia).

PoE is going to be much harder to use to find a serial killer, but if Jay was actually killable, it wouldn't matter... the game would have been over and the town would have won with 6 or 7 of us left out of 12. That was the PoE at work.

I figured Jay was Trump from the moment I subbed back in, given I knew Boomslang died in his place. It was confirmed when sloonei died in his place. I believe the rest of the town could have won with me if I just could have killed him! But I couldn't.

Sorry for lynching you MM.

You had to do what you had to do. In hindsight, there was nothing I could have done on Day 5 to change my fate (that I know of). You guys all had some insight as to how the game worked while I was the only one completely in the dark.

I don't blame inh in the slightest though. Matt pulled the a similar stunt on me in the GoC.

This isn't the first time Golden died early on and subbed back into the game for a baddie role to give us all a thorough licking...

This game would have made more sense if Jay hadn't been so supatown. :P

I am curious to hear why Sloonei was nightkilled.

Woot! Only vanilla player to make it to LYLO.

That explains why you weren't nightkilled all game.

Jay survived 3 NK's. Oh my word...

Night 4, I kinda assumed that even if inh or Golden was the SK, they would form a voting block anyway, making it nye impossible to lynch one or the other.

I didn't think Jay was the SK, but I felt that all I could do was project that role onto him.

inh, did you actually learn something about leetic/Golden? His fake-role indicates that you two did have some sort of relationship, even if it wasn't accurate.

Well not entirely. I'm still looking at Survivor Man.

Sorry Jay, this one's on me.

How about them apples.

Rezz please.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:At least you had the pleasure of being thoroughly licked.

At least I wasn't alone.

Also, go civs!

No takers? Well good game.

That's coo.

I'll sigbet that I am not the SK, nor am I presidential candidate Donald Trump, nor am I anything other than a normal townie, with anyone willing to take me up on it.

insertnamehere wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
insertnamehere wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Let this be a lesson to you all that JaggedJimmyJay is a sly, silver-tongued octopus, and that's why he's still alive today.
To be honest, if you didn't explicitly say that you weren't Trump, I may have voted 3J.
I don't get the whole deal about Trump, and it's a little frustrating.

Why does it matter if I'm Trump or not?
Because I know Trump is in the game, and I know it's not me or Golden.

I doubt Trump is the Serial Killer, so...

I'm not the Big T or the SK.

insertnamehere wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Let this be a lesson to you all that JaggedJimmyJay is a sly, silver-tongued octopus, and that's why he's still alive today.
To be honest, if you didn't explicitly say that you weren't Trump, I may have voted 3J.

I don't get the whole deal about Trump, and it's a little frustrating.

Why does it matter if I'm Trump or not?

Let this be a lesson to you all that JaggedJimmyJay is a sly, silver-tongued octopus, and that's why he's still alive today.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Y'all have made the right choice.

For you.

For what it's worth, I'm not the big T.

inh, do you have a dog in this fight, or have you already won?

GALLON OF FAT-FREE MILK JAGGEDJIMMYJAY

Also, I'm basically confirmed town.

Golden wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:I've also made crucial late-day-phase votes in every single lynch thus far, which has led to the lynching of two mafiosa (and every lynched player as a matter of fact).
Why wouldn't you do this when SK?

I probably would to an extent. I generally make useful votes, and would try to match that meta as a SK. But as a SK, I wouldn't have the urgency to do so.

I've also made crucial late-day-phase votes in every single lynch thus far, which has led to the lynching of two mafiosa (and every lynched player as a matter of fact).

Golden wrote:Read Boomslang - he agreed with some of Jay's posts. Jay could have had an early town read on him (thus an early candidate for who Trump could be), but also had less reason to want him dead. He didn't interact with marmot at all, so there's nothing there to analyse.

That's me for now, again, but I'll do some more before I decide to go to bed.

Marmot - please tell me if there are any specific things you point to why you are not the SK that you would like me to revisit before making a final decision, thank you.

Jay, I will read day one of you.

I have to be realistic, I can't do everything.

This

Tell me Jay, why would I pick a game where I roll an SK role to actually work my ass off for the civilian cause?

I tried so hard. I did everything as well as I could. Yet here I am, getting lynched, because I just can't do it well enough.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Here's the problem in a nutshell, Marmot. This post exists.

insertnamehere wrote:
Golden wrote:INH 'something does not have to give'. You can feel free to vote for 3J but you won't convince me to join you. I'm not going to expend effort convincing you that you are wrong.
Yup, this sure is the model of a civilian BTSC partnership, 3J.

Good read.
A townie cannot know conclusively what INH's motive for posting this is. He has to try to discern that motive. He has to decide what that means about Golden too.

A serial killer knows INH and Golden are town already so it's moot.

I don't know why this post is important to you. It is WIFOM, and inh would deny it whether it's true or not.

Golden wrote:I've just read the last two pages and, as it stands, I find Jay's arguments much more convincing than Marmot's.

I find myself reading them and going 'that makes total sense'. I read marmots and think 'thats what he would have to say if SK'.

Of course you fucking do. Supatown!

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:I don't know how you could come to that conclusion correctly as a civilian. They trust each other. There is likelihood of information. It is unfathomable that one of them is the real SK as a result.

A SK is unlikely to rely on thread evidence because he doesn't need it. You did not rely on it coming into this day phase because you didn't need it to know that they were civilian.
This post says it all, Marmot. It's completely backwards.

You're saying a townie shouldn't have a reason to suspect one of them of being a serial killer. You're creating the image that the Golden/INH interaction was so undeniable and obvious that an uninformed townie would have no reason to suspect either of them at all. That's not how being town works. A townie doesn't know anything, and he has to make judgments based upon what he sees -- and he has to pursue clarification and expansion. That's why I continually asked Golden and INH about each other, and why I continually posed theories about their relationship. I was working it out the only way I could.

The mindset you're attributing to a hypothetical townie only makes sense for a player with information external to the thread -- in this case a serial killer.

That's exactly what I said. I made a judgment based on what I saw. That information was crucial to my read and my mindset going into Day 5.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:One does not "forget" one of the most basic concepts in Mafia. A serial killer knows that other people aren't serial killers.
I remember the things that are directly related to my role, not other people's.
That's kind of the point.

MM knows MM is the serial killer.

"Are Golden or INH a serial killer?" is never a sincere thing in your brain.

Golden and INH look like they might have BTSC.

They probably do.

Whereas for Mr. Townie:

Golden and INH look like they might have BTSC.

I'm not sure though, and I am concerned about this possible angle Golden might be pursuing...

*tinfoil*

I don't know how you could come to that conclusion correctly as a civilian. They trust each other. There is likelihood of information. It is unfathomable that one of them is the real SK as a result.

A SK is unlikely to rely on thread evidence because he doesn't need it. You did not rely on it coming into this day phase because you didn't need it to know that they were civilian.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:One does not "forget" one of the most basic concepts in Mafia. A serial killer knows that other people aren't serial killers.

I remember the things that are directly related to my role, not other people's.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Yellow: I don't know why you're bringing up Sloonei again.
Sloonei is the only player who I know was nightkilled by the SK (and Epignosis I suppose). I know we've hypothesized on the other nights, but I don't recall the conclusion we came to.
I know that. What I mean is that you crammed the Sloonei argument into an argument about something else. You keep forcing Sloonei against me as if it's not applicable to yourself in all the same ways.

Do you maintain that a serial killer has no informational advantage in judging Golden and INH over a townie?

Well I kinda have too. There aren't really any "great" arguments to be made against you, so I have to make do.

I guess I've forgotten the fact that yes, a SK that is living with no mafia around will know who all the civilians are. The conclusion I pointed out to you is one I came to. An SK wouldn't need that thread information to come to that conclusion though. A townie would.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Yellow: I don't know why you're bringing up Sloonei again.

Sloonei is the only player who I know was nightkilled by the SK (and Epignosis I suppose). I know we've hypothesized on the other nights, but I don't recall the conclusion we came to.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:What advantage did I have? If I am the SK, how do I have any advantage on thread-based evidence that you don't?
You don't need thread-based evidence that I don't have. You only need the same evidence that I have at my disposal. Here's how it works:

1.) Both the serial killer and the townie observe evidence in the thread that Golden and INH might be in some sort of mutually or singularly informed civilian relationship.

2.) The townie is forced to judge whether that evidence should be taken at face value or investigated for ulterior motives, because one can never be sure if there's an agenda behind those sorts of public clues.

3.) The serial killer is inherently immune to the uncertainty that the townie is experiencing in #2. He knows immediately that both Golden and INH are townies, and thus he is able to judge their relationship purely as it is. The paranoia never exists.

A townie can come to that conclusion as well, and here's how.

3 mafia are dead. There is (as of Day 4) only 1 baddie of any kind left or this game is rigged. insertnamehere could be lying, but Golden had given me reasonable belief that he was not. Golden could be lying, but then inh would have made two senseless posts in the thread defending a player that he never talked about again for no reason. And his behavior when Golden came back speaks to it being true.

Golden and inh cannot both be lying, that would be preposterous. That would mean they are both bad (in which case the game should be over?), one is bad and one made a bad judgment call, or they both mad bad choices.. It is more likely in my eyes that you are the SK and killed Sloonei than it is that one of them did.

What advantage did I have? If I am the SK, how do I have any advantage on thread-based evidence that you don't?

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