The Syndicate

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:03 pm@Sloonei - Pretty sure I asked you before what you thought of JJJ's initial reason for reading Kyle as town. The reason about him being angry and talking about JJJ's play as lacking respect. I talked about this too. I don't remember you commenting on this at all?

um i want to point out that when i say things like "incredibly disrespectful" or "i can't respect that decision" it's not really a legitimate human moral judgement that i'm making. when i said before that i didn't respect what i viewed jay's tactics to be, it was more of a "wow, dick move, dude" thing than like a "i think less of you as a person, and also you're dead to me" thing. i tend to use hyperbole a lot and sometimes it makes me sound more serious than i actually am.

i know this might be jumping the gun a little but i think we might be able to solve this game similarly to how we solved vocaroo too, with the whole POE lists thing.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:28 amKylemii is done;

Very unlikely = Speedchuck
Possible = Epignosis, nutella, Long Con, Wilgy, Marmot and Lorab
Null = Dizzy, Nova and Dave
Unlikely = Sloonei, JJJ, FZ

Kylemmi has the most possible partners so far, which is a hell of a feat given he has a lot of posts. Quite a nice little group of people that he avoided engaging in any meaningful way.

Idk, I guess I did end up focusing on Sloonei and Jay for most of that day phase. You did miss out on some interaction between me and LC though.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:28 amKylemmi has the most possible partners so far, which is a hell of a feat given he has a lot of posts. Quite a nice little group of people that he avoided engaging in any meaningful way.

I heard this a lot in college too. B)

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:21 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:56 pm Daisy, Dave, Dizzy, FZ, NVN, I have almost no impression at all of any of these players yet

At the time you made this post you had already posted a case on FZ, which was more than you had done on other players outside this group. I find it strange that you included her in this group given that.

That's why I said almost. Outside of FZ's early response to me, I have no impression of who she is or what she stands for at all.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:04 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:24 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:21 pm You described my post as "unhelpful" earlier. why?

because it was unhelpful

all you did was sharpen the focus on something that was already being focused on

is that value added?

I still dislike every single word of this post. If I'm going to reduce my suspicion of Kyle down to a single post, I want it to be this one. It starts here.

Sloonei, I was mosty just reacting to Jay's thing emotionally. When I said "unhelpful" I meant that you weren't helping the situation for me personally. It was a frustrating time and every person stacking on shit made me feel even worse. When you responded to my things with such terse and judgemental words it felt like you were just stacking shit on, so I lashed back at you. If I had been in a better emotional state I might have responded better.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:43 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:24 pm To be more specific regarding my thought process (since I'm so often accused of pretzel logic and am getting that criticism here again), my initial concern was how Kylemii failed to consider that 3J was bad and was making a move against him. Had the Vocaroo sequel not have happened, I might have carried on with considering that a sign of Kyle's (subconscious) guilt revealing itself, but when I read Kyle's posts in his own voice, that feeling went away.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:30 am Sloonei has done nothing in my estimation except pound Kylemii into the ground. We both played Vocaroo Too! Mafia, and I expressed why I think Kylemii is civilian. Sloonei, to my knowledge, has not commented on Kylemii's tone were he to read his posts in Kylemii's voice.* Furthermore, Sloonei quickly called me good. Should he have done so? And on what basis?

*Granted, I have not read Sloonei's novel on Kylemii, which I will do so shortly.

Hey wait, thats weird. I assumed when he posted that that he meant envisioning my constantly nervous boyscout-like voice saying the things I was saying here we're painting my words in a better light.... but actually.... I never once faced suspicion or stress of any kind in that entire game. I was town read almost by default by everyone except elohcin because of my vocal tone being that of an always nervous 16 year old boy scout who seems like he's 2 minutes away from crying at all times.

I've been stressed this entire time. I was relaxed during the entirety of vocaroo.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:32 am I’m considering the notion of an Epi/Kyle pairing.

He sounded civilian because his posts read like his Vocaroo recordings? When did Kyle even face significant pressure in Vocaroo? What is the comparison?

wait when did he say this?

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:58 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:39 am

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:29 am Guys that's not what I said to do.

why did you want to lynch kyle?

Like I said. Good feeling it's him or you. Now I wait a full cycle to find out.

Can I ask you to explain this viewpoint?

Sorry Daisy.

hey wait actually what the fuck

how many people moved their votes from Sloonei to Daisy in the last minute

Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:54 am Kyle, I'm sorry if I've incorrectly tunneled you. I had multiple reasons to be suspicious of you early in the game and presented these reasons in the thread. I am entirely open to the possibility that my arguments are wrong, but I don't feel like there was ever a thorough discussion of that. I don't agree with the perception of my treatment of you, though you have been my primary suspect today.

Honestly, it's fair. I'm not very good at handling suspicion against me and I tend to lean towards smug dismissal a little too much. I'm also not used to taking an active role in day 0 and 1 discussions. These two phases have put me well out of my comfort zone, and maybe that's good? Maybe I need to actively practice the things I'm really bad at.

Moving forward I will try my best to respond to your worries in the most complete fashion I can. I hope you can continue forward with an open mind in reading my words and behavior.

Linkitis: oh no

someday I would actually like to play in a game with Daisy without her replacing out immediately

don't make me regret this

Jay thoughts on daisy go

Kylemii wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:48 am Sloonei can you give a reason beyond spacedaisy voting for you for me to move my vote to her?

or anyone for that matter

Sloonei can you give a reason beyond spacedaisy voting for you for me to move my vote to her?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:06 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:05 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:56 pm @Kylemii take your dumb vote off me so I don't die.

I'll use my dumb vote as I please, thanks.

It feels odd that so many players followed my vote. Maybe I've never felt this way cus I always vote late on purpose.

I know I said earlier that I've grown up and matured into a brand new Kyle but maybe this is a good time for return of tie meta. B)

Talk about Daisy's vote.

It seems in-character for her, I feel like she's been not caught up in a recent game where she came back and trusted me quickly. Maybe mountains? I don't remember her alignment

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:56 pm @Kylemii take your dumb vote off me so I don't die.

I'll use my dumb vote as I please, thanks.

It feels odd that so many players followed my vote. Maybe I've never felt this way cus I always vote late on purpose.

I know I said earlier that I've grown up and matured into a brand new Kyle but maybe this is a good time for return of tie meta. B)

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:29 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:26 pm I apologize for having emotions earlier, I will avoid that in the future.

Cool, I'm not there yet. Is it going to be awesome?

Eh.

I know this is a needy request but could someone quote or copy/paste Spacedaisy's 4 posts for me? I can't iso rn without the link

I apologize for having emotions earlier, I will avoid that in the future.

holy shit?

okay I'm still with fam, but I can check in every once in a while still between songs, what's the deal with space daisy?

like I really don't mean to be dismissive but I can't hang out in my room on my phone right now

They're taking me to get Phò. I'm placing a vote on Sloonei rn. I should be back early enough to make a good decision before the poll ends.

At this point I don't even mind that much if I get lynched? I mean I'd obviously prefer to live but I think this game would do fine without me, and I'm never super critical to town success anyways so... whatever I guess. I'll be back in a little while.

sloonei with all due respect I'm done responding to you. your case is bad and you're only being repetitive and I have family over that I should be hanging out with, I can't be a good family member, and respond to you, and also make a good decision for this day phase at the same time. I can do 1, maybe 2 of those things but not all 3.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:17 pm @Kylemii

GTH reads on every player please. I would appreciate it. You don't have to research them or think too hard. Just give me the gut takes. Copy the list here if you like:

Epi - good
Nutella - good
Wilgy - good
Daisy - bad
LC - good
Dyslexicon - good
FZ - bad
Speed - good
JJJ - good
Marmot - bad
Sloonei -bad
Lorab - good
Dave - ???
Novaselinenever - ???
Mac - good

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:15 pm
Vote for me.

voting for someone who isn't likely to be lynched is wasting a vote

I've given a read on Jay. I also have a strong town read on Speedchuck and a mild town read on Mac.[/quote
okay so you've given 3 negative reads today I guess that means you're not tunneling, my bad

would you like to present a case against me?

what I would like is for you to stop wasting my time so I can figure out who to actually vote for during this day phase where my life is on the line

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:08 pm Let's boil my kyle suspicion down to two posts that are centered around his treatment of me. First:

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:24 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:21 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:20 pm getting lynched for day 1 bullshit used to be my #1 cause of death.

You described my post as "unhelpful" earlier. why?

because it was unhelpful

all you did was sharpen the focus on something that was already being focused on

is that value added?

Is this a legitimate point of view? was my post "unhelpful" because it "sharpened the focus on something that was already being focused on"? Does that accusation even make sense? what should this say about kyle's read of me in this game? And I'll open up his last question to the floor: Did my one-word case building on Kyle add any value to the thread?

Sloonei. You did nothing helpful. All you did was add one more body to the list of people who seemed to be following Jay's brick of nothing. You didn't help anything but to spread the poison around.

Second:

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:32 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:08 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:06 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:58 pm Kyle, what color would I be on your rainbow?

yellow

I'm not interested in lynching you today, and I think my involvement in the events that i was basing my read on you may have caused a bias in my view.

Give me a gun-to-head read then.

sloonei what is the purpose of this question? I've already outlined my view on you. I thought you looked bad because of the way you climbed on to Jay's thing. I'm acknowledging that my view on you could have been tinted by a bias created by my sometimes overly defensive nature. Nothing's changed in your behavior to swing you back in either direction so that's why you're yellow, a gun to head read on you right now would be arbitrary.

Kyle has not been able to give me a read all game. I like people to take definitive stances. This is a regular angle I pursue. "what is the purpose of this?" is not a question I'd expect an earnestly invested townie kyle to ask me in that moment.

Acting like I'm the kind of player to give hard reads when they haven't been earned or fully researched is another example of you ignoring my actual real life playstyle.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:03 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:59 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:50 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:49 pm I changed my mind, Sloonei your case is really bad. It's tunnel-y and it's not even internally consistent. It's build on hypotheticals ways that you think a town Kyle should react to situations that don't apply in reality because I don't fit into your cookie cutter viewpoint of what I should be like.

Is my effort irrelevant now?

Yeah. It's not a good case, it's just a long case.

and like you said it would be easy for a mafia Sloonei to invest super hard in this tunnel thing you're doing for town credit. After I died you could just be like "well I was really sure about it, didn't you see my 18 paragraph essay"

Does this make me a scum read?

I would absolutely vote for you right now if everyone else was down to. I think your case is stretchy and opportunistic and I don't see you doing all this as a civ. You've done nothing but tunnel me all day. I don't think you've given reads on anyone but me or Epignosis.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:01 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:38 pm

This was the turn in the conversation that I really didn't like, and still do not. If this is what Kyle assumed, then why did he launch so quickly into defense mode? why was it his objective to negate and dismiss a prod which he presumed to be disingenuous, rather than simply observing that it was disingenuous? This might be my least favorite post in the thread.

this implies that i should ever ignore lies being told about me and assume the liar must have good intentions. i disagree with that on principle based on the fact that this is mafia? lies and innaccurate statements should always be called out.

But you acknowledged in this same breath that you were pretty sure this particular lie was just a standard mafia ploy. If this is your interpretation, why was it so important to refute it first?

"pretty sure this particular lie was just a standard mafia ploy" again that's false. I said I was pretty sure he was lying cus factually speaking there were no consistencies between this game and sc2. The reasoning was still unknown.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:50 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:49 pm I changed my mind, Sloonei your case is really bad. It's tunnel-y and it's not even internally consistent. It's build on hypotheticals ways that you think a town Kyle should react to situations that don't apply in reality because I don't fit into your cookie cutter viewpoint of what I should be like.

Is my effort irrelevant now?

Yeah. It's not a good case, it's just a long case.

and like you said it would be easy for a mafia Sloonei to invest super hard in this tunnel thing you're doing for town credit. After I died you could just be like "well I was really sure about it, didn't you see my 18 paragraph essay"

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:52 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:44 pm

Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?

"This is the only reason anyone could possibly have to be suspicious of me and it's bogus and any other argument you could make definitely doesn't apply, so it must be this, but look how inefficient it is."

I'll jump ahead to the post I labeled "obtuse":

I was trying to understand what I thought Jay's point of view might be, which is literally something you complained about me not doing earlier in this very long short story.

My complaint was that you weren't engaging with Jay about his viewpoint. This is a continuation of that.

Jay. Wasn't. Online.

You want to know who was online? 4 people who saw Jay's trash and said "hmmm interesting! Jay must know something, here's 4 other reasons why we should all suspect Kyle, wow crazy"

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:46 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:33 pm

There simply is no room for the consideration in Kyle's worldview. what bothers me about this, given the context, is that there appears to be no effort on Kyle's part to understand what the accusation is that's being brought against him. He just sees an accusation and launches into full denial of it. I'm still getting to know Kyle as a player,

that's wrong, I went back to the sc2 mafia forum to try and figure out what the might have thought was a tell. The only thing that made sense was "let's go" cus it was the only consistency.

you read the post and labelled it "incredulous"

Yes I did. Because you were responding to a case that didn't exist as if it had to be false. whether or not you went back to investigate your own past game is irrelevant to me. what's "incredulous" about all of this is that you're not allowing the case to be made against you before you deny it. You're just denying it off the bat.

No. I was responding to a case that could potentially be either true or false in Jay's mind. I had no way of knowing at the time, and jay just fucked off and left me out to dry so I reacted to both. What was I supposed to do? What else was there to talk about?

I changed my mind, Sloonei your case is really bad. It's tunnel-y and it's not even internally consistent. It's build on hypotheticals ways that you think a town Kyle should react to situations that don't apply in reality because I don't fit into your cookie cutter viewpoint of what I should be like.

Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?

"This is the only reason anyone could possibly have to be suspicious of me and it's bogus and any other argument you could make definitely doesn't apply, so it must be this, but look how inefficient it is."

I'll jump ahead to the post I labeled "obtuse":

I was trying to understand what I thought Jay's point of view might be, which is literally something you complained about me not doing earlier in this very long short story.

Or maybe this is my least favorite post. Those first two sentences imply that there might actually be a parallel. If there's a parallel, it means Kyle is scum again here, does it not?

literally no? "hey Sloonei you had a blues clues avatar in ____ mafia game where you were mafia and you have one here too so you must be mafia" is an example of what you said. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

This was the turn in the conversation that I really didn't like, and still do not. If this is what Kyle assumed, then why did he launch so quickly into defense mode? why was it his objective to negate and dismiss a prod which he presumed to be disingenuous, rather than simply observing that it was disingenuous? This might be my least favorite post in the thread.

this implies that i should ever ignore lies being told about me and assume the liar must have good intentions. i disagree with that on principle based on the fact that this is mafia? lies and innaccurate statements should always be called out.

There simply is no room for the consideration in Kyle's worldview. what bothers me about this, given the context, is that there appears to be no effort on Kyle's part to understand what the accusation is that's being brought against him. He just sees an accusation and launches into full denial of it. I'm still getting to know Kyle as a player,

that's wrong, I went back to the sc2 mafia forum to try and figure out what the might have thought was a tell. The only thing that made sense was "let's go" cus it was the only consistency.

you read the post and labelled it "incredulous"

gth read on Sloonei is civ now. I don't think a mafia Sloonei would put so much effort into a case he would know is wrong, barring some truly buckwild wifom.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:22 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:21 pm Is there anything to the case on epi beyond his attitude towards Sloonei and Jay

Read the reasons provided by LoRab, FZ, and nutella and share your thoughts. Their ISOs are much shorter than mine.

I don't have the built in iso links cus I play on mobile. :[

Is there anything to the case on epi beyond his attitude towards Sloonei and Jay

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:02 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:00 pm I'm going to lodge a veto request of the Epignosis lynch on the following grounds;

a) The primary case against him as been made by JJJ who is the most followable player in the game
b) I don't agree with his arguments
c) If JJJ is Mafia then losing Epignosis's tendency to keep him accountable by revelling in being contrarian feels tantamount to just losing the game

I agree with this. Let's lynch Dizzy.

Why Dizzy?

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:53 pmWho IS an incredible lynch candidate?

honestly I'd almost rather go for a low poster or something

I dont feel like any of the votes on me could have been opportunistic votes to save a mafia Epignosis except for maybe Wilgy. I'm afraid of this being civ/civ just based on ambiance.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:43 pm @Kylemii Thoughts on ties in this game? (ignoring that you're one of the players up for the 'tie')

I don't understand the purpose of this question. Is it cus I've previously been really amped up for ties? I've grown up. New year, new me.

I still like close votes that give the mafia a potential chance to save, I think it puts them in a psychological shit zone where they have to make a decision on whether to dunk their teammate or save them, and it often ends up being reflected in their posts.

I guess technically in this game ties are like 3% better than usual because we have at least one civvie role that can break ties.

In terms of this actual literal situation, I don't like this one. Not only because I'm part of it but because I don't think Epignosis is an incredible lynch candidate.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:12 pmThat's rich coming from someone who didn't notice that my rainbow was copied from the previous page.

"wow, i can't believe you actually really believed i was telling the truth while i was obviously being purposefully deceptive for a weird joke"

it's um.... it's speedchuck's list

speedchuck he just copied and pasted your rainbow list from earlier, he had me on there as green even though he wants to lynch me.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:33 pmI have qualms about this whole line of defense from JJJ. He's playing it off like he was this huge driver for debate, while in actuality what made the content was Kyle's reaction and Kyle's posts, which JJJ had no control over. If he had flung the poop on me I would've posted a cat gif and moved on - then what? So logically, JJJ didn't write or do the content. The other reason I have qualms with this is that I regocnize that I've used this exact line of defense as scum several times - played off reactions to me doing something as all of it being my doing and my content when in actuality I had no direct control over it.

This is something that bothered me too. Jay actually had minimal influence on the discussion aside from starting it. He posted a silly science man gif and sauntered off.

- Why is Kyle worried about getting lynched for no reason so early by JJJ? FZ was the one with some actual piece of reasoning.

I am sensitive to getting lynched day one over bullshit because of frequent past experiences. It used to be so bad that I would really just sign up for like 5 games at once fully expecting to get lynched early in 1 or 2 of them to balance it out. Realistically, in retrospect overextending myself in that way probably contributed to the bullshit.

- I don't get how Kyle can say he "gets where Epig is coming from" concerning the scum duo read on JJJ and Sloonei when it's just as baseless as JJJ's brick throwing. Weird.

this is a misunderstanding. when I said I get where he's coming from, I meant I get where he comes from about wanting to establish reads on those two as early as possible. I don't see Jay and Sloonei as W/W.