The Syndicate

I read the MU definition of Strongman, and it definitely read as though the role itself couldn't be blocked or jailkept, so getting clarity on this is something I'll keep in mind.

A question on the playing of "Town innocent child"

How is this most effectively used? Any thoughts? It gives the town an immediate early boost to eliminating worlds early. On the other hand, I suppose it makes mafia decision making easier?

I'm going to see if that functions at work, which is my basic problem with Chatzy.

Marco wrote:Took me a while to find where this game had gone.

Congrats, scum-team. Where's the scum chat?

Also, sig and MP legit "slipped" with assuming mafia kill D1?

Marco

My genuine apologies for your death. I thought I'd sent in a PM jailkeeping you. Entirely my fault. Mea Culpa.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:Who did you have pegged as jailkeeper. Did I ever give away even a hint that I was tpr?
The moment I realized we were in setup F and I found out I was JKed n2, I thought it was you. Wasn't 100% sure though, but I was pretty sure it was someone who was voicing trust of me, and of those people my gut screamed it was you. I was wanting to keep you alive, however, and preferred finding the town vig first. I thought, as long as I can keep myself clean in thread, the JKer doesn't present nearly as much threat to me. There's no telling, in contrast, whether the town vig will kill me or my teammates at any time.

Funnily enough, I came out of that jailkeep with less trust of you. You had sort of given away the possibility of being either mafia or tpr through appearing to have knowledge of the setup, and then I had proved that you weren't one by having two kills that night. There were all sorts of pieces of evidence that I had available that in the end I didn't listen to... you and sig post night one was the biggest one. You both slipped and I let it be

Who did you have pegged as jailkeeper. Did I ever give away even a hint that I was tpr?

Turns out you weren't vigged, zexy.

MP did a good job of taking out the people I trusted.

One final note.

I think my unmitigated failure in the face of my championships foes is about the best I could have hoped for out of this game. I have reduced the target on my back beautifully

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Pie Mafia: coming soon to a Syndicate near you.

Not to be confused with Pi Mafia, which is also in the works. :P

I wish to be the decimal point.

Or 22/7, one of those two.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:However... the moment when I genuinely believed MP was town was doing my iso towards the end of day 4. Before then it was mostly show. Even after that I was thinking 'this does remind me of me in Economics' - so well played MP, really well played.
You sneak! I did wonder why you were buddying me so much, but I figured you were being honest.

The moment I was JKed n2 though, my instinct was that you were the JK. I tried to role check MM that night and it failed.

I also tried to specifically paint you as a tpr on day two without it looking like I was doing it with the goal f baiting a kill attempt on you.

sig wrote:@Golden we protected me last night so it wouldn't have mattered much. :P
Also why did you think I was mafia?

I disagree with vig taking out only lurkers. While it might work I think in the end it damages town more espacilly if your mafia members are high posters.

Your protection was a fail, sig... I jailkept MP!

I thought you were mafia because of your links to IAWY, and your closed-mindedness on setup options in early day 2, but that's also why I thought you could be vig.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:If you're unhappy with my decision to kill you, I understand. In my defense, my point in lynching zebra over DrWilgy was that if she did come back civ, I thought it would look better for the doctor, hence why I didn't want to kill him. But after zebra flipped, I went into Night 4 with the most likely of scum teams being you, MP, and sig. We were in pretty dire situation as it was, so I opted to kill the one I felt would be hardest to lynch. I felt good enough about Soneji not to kill him. I didn't feel confident either way on ika. Considering the situation last night, I thought it was best to kill someone who is likely scum, not someone who is a non-participant. I don't think that is the wrong way to approach it.

Nah, I'm not unhappy. I was pretty sure we'd lost at that point anyway. If it had been me, I would have used it on sig, BUT, I knew I was good and you didn't.

MovingPictures07 wrote:With that said, when Golden came to the opposite conclusion re: sig and IAWY as I did a bit over halfway through d4, I was seriously concerned.

Soneji wasn't there. Zebra was upset with me and not willing to engage with me. I really wanted to have discussion around sig but with only you willing to talk to me...

That's why it worked, ultimately.

MovingPictures07 wrote:I realize though that this game means I'm probably going to get policy lynched forever and never trusted again, so maybe I'll slink away from playing for long enough that people forget about it...

That's what I thought about eco, and then I won another 6 or something games for the year.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'll also say that I don't think this original Matrix12 is balanced very well (at least not setup F as we played in). A 13 vs. 4 ratio is already difficult to work with, and giving the mafia team an extra kill on top of that is too much. Town had a decent arsenal of powers to combat that, but not enough. Thankfully they've tweaked the matrix at MU and it ought to be a bit better now that the tournament games have started.

That's not to take anything away from this mafia team, who clearly deserved to win.

I agreed with this, so I'm glad to hear there are tweaks.

Silverwolf wrote:One other thing I wanted to mention is that town needs town blocs to beat out scum. This means I always town hunt. If I can find them and PoE out the scum, then town has a chance. The hard part is when town doesn't post much because I will try to lynch low content posters starting D2 usually.

I agree. I did real difficulty finding my town block this game. I'm most gutted that I didn't jailkeep you on day one and also Marco on day 3 (who I thought I'd sent in a PM to jailkeep).

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:And hey, a message to the town vigilante:

Hold your head high. You're the one who had to pull the trigger, so don't mind any criticism. Shit happens, it's Mafia.

Exactly - but I'll still give you shit for it MM

Soneji wrote:I passed out last night for 13 hours, that is why I never showed up again. Congrats to the winners. MP cared way too much about winning a simple practice game

At least I got sig right.

I needed you around at the end there, soneji!

ika wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Silverwolf wrote:Effort is never indicative of alignment. If Ika is tunneling he either is a PR w results or its his scum team mate. He will also do it to me if I'm scum in a game and he catches me. Just an FYI no matter hi well you know someone, you should never rely solely on meta alone to read them. Good job scum team and congratulations on the win. Whoever the vig is, should hide their head in shame.
I don't agree with this; it can be. Mafia have to fabricate literally all of their content. It was difficult for me to do that, some of you didn't make it easy.

But it never is indicative with some players, including me.
but tats the thing, how golden was reading you was bassed on your effort and contents IMO. what silver is saying here is that usign that to abirtarly read someone will lead you to misread people

That's not what I was reading MP on at all ika. MP will have great effort and content no matter what his alignment.

Oh, btw, MP and sig both did genuinely slip re setup at the start of day 2.

Worked in sigs favour from my perspective though - I suspected he was town vig. That's basically what was keeping my hand from lynching him.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I was going to kill Golden or MP last night. Unfortunately, I picked the wrong one. I am a terrible vig.

You really were. The point of vig is to take out non-contributors, not go on gut!

Anyway, I jailkept MP. I did it because I had done it on day 2 and I knew he wasn't town vig, and that town vig was critical to us winning.

However... the moment when I genuinely believed MP was town was doing my iso towards the end of day 4. Before then it was mostly show. Even after that I was thinking 'this does remind me of me in Economics' - so well played MP, really well played.

The moment zebra flipped town, I knew it was sig and probably mp. I was buddying mp hard and as I said to ika many times 'if it looks like I'm tunnelling, I'm probably not'. My main goal was to not be dead since I was tpr.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Sig! Fix your vote.

Is it not done properly?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:I think we should lynch zebra today. Twice, she intentionally put DrWilgy in a near hammer situation. I don't think she would do such a thing if DrWilgy were a civilian, or a vanilla mafia.

Tin-foil hat time. I think zebra is a power role on the mafia team, and she's trying to make it through the day alive, hence attempting to off DrWilgy.
This could also explain her 'I'm happier to be lynched myself than have MP lynched' stuff on day one.
I honestly don't think this and that are related, since zebra has a much different mindset today than she did Day 1.

It doesn't need to be related... simply the fact she is MPR would be enough to make that particular thing worth doing on day one tactically, since it makes her look more vanilla.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:For what it's worth, Soneji was gone for almost the entirety of last weekend as well.

Still doesn't make me feel better about him at this stage in the game.
I know... and I'm strong town reading him, but he needs to really show us more of where he's at. I hope I'm not wrong about him at this stage.

The interaction between him and IAWY speaks fairly strongly.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:I think we should lynch zebra today. Twice, she intentionally put DrWilgy in a near hammer situation. I don't think she would do such a thing if DrWilgy were a civilian, or a vanilla mafia.

Tin-foil hat time. I think zebra is a power role on the mafia team, and she's trying to make it through the day alive, hence attempting to off DrWilgy.
This could also explain her 'I'm happier to be lynched myself than have MP lynched' stuff on day one.
You mean in that it was a reverse psychology gambit that was sure to take votes off of her?

Yeah, or make her seem unimportant and vanilla.

Further observation... if zebra is MPR, and Wilgy is also bad, its likely that Wilgy would be the only mafia not on that wagon at that time. Given this, I think it would point to scotty being the last mafia member. If MM's theory is correct.

Since this is ending soon anyway...

I once again implore the town vig... use your kill to take out someone who we don't want to be at lylo with, because they are difficult to understand. Wilgy would be my preference.

Please don't use it on someone we are more likely to be able to figure out on our own, even if you think they are bad.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I think we should lynch zebra today. Twice, she intentionally put DrWilgy in a near hammer situation. I don't think she would do such a thing if DrWilgy were a civilian, or a vanilla mafia.

Tin-foil hat time. I think zebra is a power role on the mafia team, and she's trying to make it through the day alive, hence attempting to off DrWilgy.

This could also explain her 'I'm happier to be lynched myself than have MP lynched' stuff on day one.

Thoughts on IAWY relationships:

Spoiler: show

Inawordyes wrote:Okay, sorry! Sorry sorry sorry. This is game relevant, but I'll put it in OT anyways; I was super tired and fell asleep Saturday night while I was catching up, hence why I just randomly disappeared abruptly, and I fully intended to be here yesterday, but some things came up unexpectedly unexpectedly after I started catching up in the morning, and I ended up being tied up all day and didn't get a chance to check the site until after EoD. But I'm here now, so hopefully I'll be fine.

I caught up with the rest of the day last night post-EoD but I'm not gonna go back and relook over then at the moment because I went to bed with a headache and woke up with a bloody nose, so I'm just not feeling like it haha, so again, if anybody has any specific points or quotes they want my thoughts on, quote 'em forward!

Current thoughts I have from memory: I don't like Frog's insistence on knowing my meta. Haha yes, this is another meta comment, but seriously, I don't step up as a leader when I'm a goodie on any other site other than MU because MU is so different than sites that I usually play on. Case on point is this MM game that I played that just finished this week:

http://mafiamaniac.net/index.php?showtopic=4037

I don't have that big of a thread presence except where it's necessary to avoid being wrongfully suspected and lunched for it, I.e. in any MU game. So I feel like, while I understand why he mentioned it because that's the only experience he has with me, it's unfair to hold me to my MU meta when I only use that meta on MU because MU is vastly sifferent than what we play here or at MM. And repeating it so often led to other people getting into the mindset that that's how I play, and without being anle to be here to correct him, I'm just kinda invariably damaged goods coming into D2 haha, because that's the perception of me now.

I understand, along those lines, why the IAWY wagon formed, but I do not like how it formed, and how it stayed. A CFD three hours before EoD on an MIA player just seems like going for low-hanging fruit, which is the strategy that Frog advocated for and it got him lynched, in the biggest of ironies haha. So that's pretty dumb haha.

Has anyone noticed that in MP's ISO reads, he's just reading posts null after null after null? I don't understand how he's getting town and Mafia leans when he's not reading all the posts he quoting either way. I understand why he'd scumread me for cultural differences - which he expressed that he knew from pregame stuff is my personality anyways - but it seems like he's being a little heavy-handed in keeping the read. I do think he's on the right side of the numbers, but if he keeps on me like that, he's gonna drop spots fast.

I didn't like how Soneji entered the thread guns-blazing with an aggressive attitude, I also didn't like how he didn't address my RVS vote at all but used it offhand as a reason to scum read me. I would lean him baddie for that.

I don't understand the backlash on Zebra and the wagon that formed on him for self-voting, that was kinda weird, and then IIRC (and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going from memory) all his voters went from him, to MP, to me.

That's what I got at the moment, quote forward relevant issues or points that were directed at me since I know where we're quite a few of them, and I'll do my best to answer them.

The bit in orange would lean towards MP and Soneji not being teammates. He seems to have been most in dispute with them (something borne out by looking at the other side of the conversation). His point on zebra doesn't seems teammate neutral, rather than indicative. It's in IAWY's interests to find the backlash on zebra odd regardless of zebra's alignment.

Spoiler: show

This, from day two, makes me very slightly lean away from MM being a teammate, I think in particular given IAWY and MM were the two with votes beforehand so it behooves IAWY to make MM look a little dodgier. The fact it took him two bites in response to MM to do this also helps me lean away from it being an overnight plan for him to suspect MM.

Spoiler: show

Inawordyes wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:An ISO of MP's ISOs This is ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as MP having over 300 posts on Day 1. For the numbers included next to each name, the first one is the number of null posts read, while the second number is the total number of posts observed.

Psittaciform - (2/2) All null post reads, but gives a slight mafia read.

Metalmarsh89 - (6/6) All null post reads, but initially gives a slight mafia read before considering to push it to moderate mafia read.

Long Con - (10/14) 10 null posts, 2 town posts, and 2 scum posts. Ultimately gives Long Con a slight mafia read.

Inawordyes - (10/17) 7 mafia posts (that vary in strength) and the rest null, which result in a moderate mafia read on Inawordyes.

DrWilgy - (15/15) All null posts that result in a null read.

Soneji - (7/9) 7 null post reads and two town post reads, which result in a slight town read.

@Inawordyes: I see what you're saying here. 3 players on this list roughly equate to null reads, but MP gives them slight or moderate mafia reads anyway. He did say in my ISO that he is ignoring null reads. I don't understand that reason for this, especially since he still gave DrWilgy a null read (or more accurately, gave no read). Anyway, if you want to look deeper into the ISOs, the links are here.
It's not even necessarily that I disagree with why he read them null, but going over all their posts and in three cases null-reading all their posts at the time of he ISO but then leaning them either way seems kinda counter-intuitive. I know that he said he was reserving straight-null for Soneji at the start because Soneji was the only NK-shower at the time, but with that many nulls you can't really expect to be able to read them either way without having some sort of slight town and scum basis.

It looks like MP is just posting to post and look like he's contributing. It's not inherently scummy because he's done a lot of other stuff that townish, but it's something to keep an eye on.

I think it's worth noting that IAWY is contributing to the 'MP is just trying to look like he's contributing' push.

Spoiler: show

This is much more indicative of zebra being IAWY's teammate, particularly the bit I underlined. I feel like this is a soft defence of a teammate, without appearing to be directly taking a view on zebra's alignment (but implying I'm willing to haphazardly take down goodies).

There are a few more posts from IAWY that lead me even further down the track of MP not being a teammate. No point quoting them all. This one is a good one, though.

Spoiler: show

Inawordyes wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Dyslexicon wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Would you be able to rank your scum reads somehow?

What did you think of my Soneji ISO earlier?
I could, eventually. But I still feel I want to hear more from most of them (since they are all/most pretty quiet). It still feels unsolved to me in a way, if that makes sense. But IAWY is my prefered lynch, and my strongest suspicion.

I was so tired when I read the Soneji-ISO I don't really remember. Sorry. I do appreciate you putting in the work, and I will surely get back to it. Apart from that I've looked into his ISO on my own today to check up on things. I'm not convinced by him, he's a null I'm suspicious of. He could very well be teamed with IAWY if he is indeed scum. I don't feel his push on Sig is very good. Firstly because I feel Sig is a player that would be easy to push on (easy target, for various reasons), and two because the argument doesn't seem all that strong to me and gets a bit repetative. I don't think it makes that much sense for scum!Sig to push on Soneji of all people if Sig is scum. That being said, I don't think it's impossible for Soneji to be town doing all this either. So it's inconclusive atm.
No worries, that's understandable. I feel like we're mind melding the most this phase, so I'm with you on IAWY. It would take some real town spark from IAWY to get me to move that vote, because I have not liked his recent posts (though he seems like a nice fellow).

Not a problem, let me know what you think when you get to it. Yeah, sig is an easy mislynch (or lynch in general), so I think he's particularly difficult to read. I need to figure him out myself.

Thanks for the elaboration.
Once you read me as Mafia you stop looking at me as town, so commenting that you don't like my recent posts is meaningless except as a tool to convince others to look at me the same way, which is a scummy tactic, or possibly a cop tactic but I don't think you would've been this subtle about a redcheck on me if that was a possibility.

Then he goes on to question all his null reads but there really isn't anything there. He votes for each in turn but there is little that can be said for each in way of engagement, I think, except for his engagement with me. I'm not reading into his final rainbow list because wifom.

MP was also the first vote on IAWY on both day one and two (of those who remained on). If it's a bus, it's a very strong bus.

And this post followed by an immediate vote also looks godo for MP.

In fact, his approach to IAWY on day one has to be one of the most convincing signs that he is not IAWY's teammate.

I've read 6 pages of MP posts and thats enough for me for now. Moving on to IAWY posts.

MovingPictures07 wrote:It'd be nice to hear from Scotty and Soneji as well.

Yeah, I really want to hear from these guys.

MP's day one re IAWY is pretty clean, highlighted by the following quote (which I can't spoiler because it has a spoiler in it). MP is one of the few people (along with silverwolf, I'd say) who was able to find specific suspicious content in IAWY's posts rather than merely express a scum vibe from him. It looks a lot cleaner than my own content on IAWY, for example.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Silverwolf wrote: VOTE INAWORDYES

This is a low content poster I'm willing to wagon. I don't like his RVS Soneji vote and the fact he hasn't posted much of substance or done any game solving or any reads or anything really, despite being here earlier.
I'm willing to take a step back from ika and give him some room to breathe and contribute, and follow you here. I feel like I'm not accomplishing anything with this vote; I've discussed ika ad nauseam.

VOTE INAWORDYES

I agree with what you've said above. In addition, I made the following observation on IAWY earlier:

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Spoiler: show
Inawordyes wrote:Since I'm playing to my standard MMMeta, might as well continue the RVS! D1 is the time to hear from everyone, so since Soneji is the only who left who hasn't checked in yet, my vote goes with him for the moment. Heyo Soneji! How are you doing? TELL US THE NAMES OF YUR SCUMMEHS!!!

*cough* Ahem, who would you, er, "conveniently" place as your list of baddies? Yeah, that's a good question. I'll show him!]/s]

I'm pinged here by inawordyes's declaration that he is playing to his own meta. Dom caught me in Arkham Mafia for saying this same thing. It indicates the mindset of someone who is purposefully making posts with the intention of playing to an existing standard, which can be defended against with the mere declaration that it's "my meta".

That's about all else I have on him. Hard to believe he has 10 posts. What do you (and others) think of that?

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:One thing I did feel like, MP, and correct me if I'm wrong... but I feel like you didn't analyse IAWY's words when considering possible teammate interactions, and I might try and do that too.
Oh, I guess that's true. My bad.

I think IAWY didn't say much to most of us, but that's a good idea, I'd definitely be interested in that.

What I'm actually currently doing is looking at your iso to see about your interactions.

(Don't let ika think I'm reevaluating, though, ok?)

VOTE A2THEZEBRA

It's where I feel most comfortable for now.

One thing I did feel like, MP, and correct me if I'm wrong... but I feel like you didn't analyse IAWY's words when considering possible teammate interactions, and I might try and do that too.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:I am here, patchily.
Oh, good, I'm not here for long right now either.

I need to iso again, but in the end I think I still feel best with the votes I still felt best with at start of day... wilgy or zebra.

I'm sort of leaning towards zebra right now. I don't think anyone can say that I and others haven't tried to engage her but she honestly doesn't seem to want to engage. Whether or not it's just because I pissed her off on day 2 or what... I don't know. But her messing with the vote yesterday seemed more actively harmful than Wilgy.

I just hope zebra isn't town vig because I really want to take Wilgy, I really hope the town vig will take Wilgy tonight if he isn't lynched.

linki @MP - honestly zebra, more than wilgy. I think. I think.

Wilgy seems to be taking an entirely 'wifom' approach to the game, so I don't think anything meaningful would be gleaned out of his posts.

I isoed sig yesterday and felt good. I read your connections thing and I felt bad. Perhaps, if I isoed sig again in light of your points (eg he does a lot of if x, then y) I might feel good again, so perhaps I'll do that.

I am here, patchily.

sig wrote:Golden are you mafia trying to bandwagon onto me and save a teammate? Since you also led the CFD onto Frog day 1.

Just want to make sure that, whoever I vote for, I'm making the best possible choice.

I do have reasons why I think you are town too. But I am worried by the links to IAWY.

a2thezebra wrote:VOTE DRWILGY

Self-preservation vote! :P

Talk to me about what you see as the merits of a sig vote. Weren't you advocating this, or am I wrong?

sig wrote:
Golden wrote:@sig - I'd like you to talk about what I just said. I'd like to hear your perspective on it.
Hello.

I've done the x is mafia if y is before. I think it helps mafia and while it doesn't always work I think it can help catch mafia.

Explain to me why you felt 'if IAWY is bad, MM is his teammate'. I don't really understand what your thinking was there.

Having said that...

I still feel like wilgy would be a teammate of sig, or a teammate of zebra, and I don't feel like sig and zebra are teammates of each other.

Somehow I really didn't fully understand Soneji's case on sig until reading through your iso on him.

I remain convinced soneji is town.

I'd like to hear soneji's thoughts on sig at the moment. Zebra's too. Anyones, really.

I think maybe I've been wrong about sig and I'm seriously considering a sig lynch.

@sig - I'd like you to talk about what I just said. I'd like to hear your perspective on it.

Wow, MP, I completely disagree on the sig iso. It looks SO BADLY like he is trying to set up an MM lynch to come straight out of an IAWY one, all the way through days one and two. I don't mind the hard defending, but the set up of MM is strong. He even suggests the vig take out MM.

I never like this pattern 'I don't think x is bad, but if x is bad, y is bad too'. It looks like a way to take a civilian out behind a teammate. I use it that way, if I can.

It makes me feel worse about sig. Conversely, if sig was bad it would make me feel a little better about MM and zebra, since they seem to have both been strong pushes by him.

Now I'm conflicted about my vote. I was hoping I'd come out of that one agreeing with you.

Having said that, I went back and read the zebra one again and... that looks just as bad today as it did yesterday.

@MP - The MM/IAWY linkages is the first one that I've read through and actually felt I've disagreed a bit. I would call it teammate compatible, but I don't really feel like there was enough there to call it teammate indicative

Day one interactions were about self-preservation not IAWY preservation, like when he told me not to shift my vote to IAWY it was because it would put him back in a tie for first. His day two rainbow list was right at the start, so it's hard to know if he would have had a null read by end of day. And most of the stuff in the day two was far more about analysing you than analysing IAWY.

I'm still keeping my eye on MM as a potential teammate and I think it can be said that there is very little evidence that he is not a teammate of IAWY, but its not compelling to me to make me feel like he is a teammate.

I really wanted to read all your isos in depth tonight but just couldn't do it. Picking it up from the MM one tomorrow.

Yeah, just that mafia right now might not have a problem putting the hammer down on a civilian.

Mind you, on the other hand, you might say they might not have a problem putting the hammer down to bus, either, so maybe I'm reading too much into it.

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