The Syndicate

thellama73 wrote:

Golden wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Like not lynching the incapacitated, or not killing total nubs during the first cycle. Those were the norm, and done out of courtesy. Now those things seem to be seen as some sort of a weakness.

I really agree with these things.

I don't. I think it's name calling, condescending attitudes, and general hatefulness that makes games unfun, not trying to win. If you say "I won't lynch silenced players" you encourage people to fake being silenced. I don't see how that make things more fun, and I don't see why civilians should have to let baddies live out of courtesy (but not the other way around) when baddies already win a majority of games on the site.

Letting people live an extra day because they are silenced or because they are new has never, in the games I have played, led to a change in who ultimately wins. It just allows for a bit more respect and actually, I think, better decision making (newbies are liable to make themselves look bad when good on day one anyway, silenced people I'm ok lynching if they are clearly bad or have clearly had an opportunity to otherwise defend themselves and haven't been convincing, but if not you are lynching based on an incomplete picture). But ultimately SVS point is about 'what makes other people feel respected'.

I do agree that your examples are far more to blame, and honestly my view on not lynching silenced players depends on the place in the game - you know we had this philosophical debate in Biblical, but I just think there is usually time to let a game breathe.

BUT - what you have put your finger on, llama, is one example of exactly why this problem can never be 'solved'. What burns one person out, another person will feel is an unfair criticism.

I'll post something here, since we are doing it here, that I originally posted privately, although I have edited it a fair bit to avoid any specific references to individuals or games.

Golden wrote:It's great to have so many new members, but it is a problem if it significantly effects our culture.

I think we need to be thinking about what is the culture we are fostering here. Is it that you have to be willing to commit everything of yourself until the end? I don't think that's what the RM culture was and it's not what I feel like TS culture has been since I arrived either - it's much more laid back, a culture where mafia is an experience that you can relax and enjoy. I really don't want that to become an invalid perspective. Truth be told, if that is what all games were like, it would be very hard to sign up for more than one at once, which isn't how things are really set up either.

It's also ok that some games are too intense. I remember King Arthur on RM, posting competitions, omg, there have been times when it's been too intense for me. It's ok that it happens. I'm just worried about it becoming the norm. If a game is intense, I'd sooner it's because of the hosts design.

I'm just one voice here, and I'm ok being the one in the minority if that's how it is. But I think we should be standing up for TS being a place where mafia is something you can do to relax. We obviously can't control what individuals do from game to game, but I think we might be able to control the overall intensity levels.

S~V~S wrote:Like not lynching the incapacitated, or not killing total nubs during the first cycle. Those were the norm, and done out of courtesy. Now those things seem to be seen as some sort of a weakness.

I really agree with these things.

It's a difficult situation to address 'in public' I think, and the reason why is because, fundamentally, I don't think games are 'objectively' less fun.

I think we all wear down on the funness of mafia at different points and for different reasons. It's a combination of feeling like particular individuals are too aggressive, our own life stresses, how overstretched we've made ourselves, how much we have individually been suspected. Probably other things too.

I don't personally feel like the games I've been playing in on the Syndicate have been 'not fun' - in fact I've enjoyed all of them. This isn't because I'm impervious to mafia not being fun, after all I did just come back after a break of three whole years because I burned out on it. I think it's just because we have different tolerances at different times, and right now clearly you are feeling it (and I think you are right that you are not alone).

The reason the use of mods is the most important thing is because individuals will find the game unfun at different times and for different reasons. We do, as a site, need to deal appropriately with behaviour that is objectively asshattery. But it can be difficult to find a line between that and there being no sacred cows. Because the moment there are sacred cows (like, for instance, "I said I'm not enjoying this game, so what do you expect from me") that we can't discuss in thread, is the moment mafia use those sacred cows to manipulate others into not voting for them. It's a challenging paradox.

For what it's worth, I know that in the past I have helped others have less fun, and this time around I'm making a concerted effort to hopefully help everyone have fun. I think there is a lot we can achieve in our tone, in not having strict tunnel vision, and in explaining our thoughts in a friendly way which allows even those being suspected to genuinely know it isn't personal and to still enjoy the game even when they are having to fight for their life.