The Syndicate

A lot of things surprised me in this game. G-Man's lynch for one, MP had a legitimate derpclear. Why Trice was suddenly taking a whole lot of heat I never quite understood (or whether it was for correct reasons). Basically after I was voted out the game became more and more unfathomable as I tore my hair out screaming WHY AREN'T YOU LYNCHING JAY AND DOM!!!!

I would have voted Jay every day from when I died (well just before) and I think he knew it.

I had Dom and Jay... I felt like I was beginning to sort things out. I did think Jay was probably mafia not sk though, until the whole trice thing (then it seemed clear to me).

Rezz please?

Bloody hell, I'm dead and they still don't invite me to the funeral.

Cowards!

Good to see your isos jay. Looking forward to the conclusions.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'd like to know what others think of Scotty right now. Each time I look at the player list his name stands out loudly to me.

I briefly felt good about him when he helped me communicate. But this is a good way to get townie points.

It does seem scotty is very rl busy and so I don't think his relative quietness is inherently bad. The problem is, though, that catch up posts or 'I'm behind' posts are often still used constructively by civs. They haven't been yet by scotty.

It's hard for me to say whether this is what g-man would call 'the deborah'... but that's not a bad card for a baddie to play when we are otherwise running up the wrong tracks and he is taking heat. I certainly will be considering scotty in the mix for tomorrow.

triceratopzeuhl wrote:
timmer wrote:
Golden wrote:Epi is the easy shot here. The same point has been made around twenty times. What answer do you people want epi to give? It's like a rhetorical question and you are hanging him on volume.

It's not as though epi gave the reason why ap wasn't bad shortly before the deadline. He did it on day 2. The shot taken against ap was a cop out, but blaming epi for it in any way is the even bigger cop out.
Any playstyle that involves never saying who you think the baddies are is going to fall under intense scrutiny. Epig has finally started naming suspicions, though, so I'm happy to move on from it.
Yeah, he only adjusts his behavior after he comes under fire for it - same as day 1 when he refused to post any content and ended up risking being lynched for it. Not at all indicative of a civ wanting to lynch baddies.

Nor indicative of a baddie wanting to avoid heat....

Epi is the easy shot here. The same point has been made around twenty times. What answer do you people want epi to give? It's like a rhetorical question and you are hanging him on volume.

It's not as though epi gave the reason why ap wasn't bad shortly before the deadline. He did it on day 2. The shot taken against ap was a cop out, but blaming epi for it in any way is the even bigger cop out.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:Or maybe Marmot is an innocent bystander.

In any event, epi, I agree about Jay. He worries me. I feel like there is a lack of fire in his opinions. His whole game feels - clockwork, like a man calculating the impact of each post. I can't describe it any other way. He's always bothered me a little but in this lynch it felt much stronger than just tinfoil.
hides bloody paws behind back

Yup, just an innocent bystander.

Or maybe Marmot is a bystander.

Or maybe Marmot is an innocent bystander.

In any event, epi, I agree about Jay. He worries me. I feel like there is a lack of fire in his opinions. His whole game feels - clockwork, like a man calculating the impact of each post. I can't describe it any other way. He's always bothered me a little but in this lynch it felt much stronger than just tinfoil.

Epignosis wrote:This Fellow is Not a Civilian

I did not like his reasons for being against the Marmot vote. He broke the tie, and it amounted to him claiming that MP and I only suspected him because he suspected us, which was chronologically inaccurate. It was almost like a brush aside.

I could see a Marmot/Jay team. Heck, I could see a Marmot/Jay/Dom team.

Fwiw, I don't find epi's behaviour particularly problematic. He is finding good reasons not to lynch people. I agree it would be ideal if he also hunted baddies, but I think that we should also listen to his pearls of wisdom about why people aren't bad and judge them on their merits.

I could do without the 'told you so' posts, though.

Epignosis wrote:
Golden wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
timmer wrote:You could have voted to tie the lynch, Epig. But you didn't. The chance to save AP was right there but you didn't take it. I'm not calling you bad. I'm not calling for your lynch. I'm calling your play sanctimonious and unhelpful. You cannot preach about trying to stop an AP lynch when you chose not to vote.
No I Couldn't Have...I Couldn't Have Voted at All
Were you prevented from saying that during the day?
I Was Unexpectedly Tied Up and Unable to Do Anything Related to Mafia

Fair enough. So, you could have voted earlier, but at the moment you assumed you would have been able to vote, you couldn't.

Epignosis wrote:
Golden wrote:
Epignosis wrote:Timmer's Last Post is Worded to Set Me Up for the Next Lynch (Lynch to Punish Behavior We Don't Like Instead of Evil Intentions)
I disagree. Timmer has pretty much made it clear who he wants to lynch next.
Then He Should Have Done a Better Job Getting Him Lynched

This doesn't seem relevant to the question of whether timmer is setting you up to be lynched next.

I asked you what you thought of other wagons - you didn't reply. You may not have been able to vote, but you seemed entirely capable of talking about who your biggest suspect was.

I'm not sure I would agree with someone who said that you are bad, but I can certainly see why people can find you sanctimonious without them having to have manipulative intent in saying it.

Epignosis wrote:
timmer wrote:You could have voted to tie the lynch, Epig. But you didn't. The chance to save AP was right there but you didn't take it. I'm not calling you bad. I'm not calling for your lynch. I'm calling your play sanctimonious and unhelpful. You cannot preach about trying to stop an AP lynch when you chose not to vote.
No I Couldn't Have...I Couldn't Have Voted at All

Were you prevented from saying that during the day?

Epignosis wrote:Timmer's Last Post is Worded to Set Me Up for the Next Lynch (Lynch to Punish Behavior We Don't Like Instead of Evil Intentions)

I disagree. Timmer has pretty much made it clear who he wants to lynch next.

Epignosis wrote:
timmer wrote:
Epignosis wrote:No One Ever Listens
You are in no position to say this. You didn't vote and you didn't offer up a case on anyone. You can stick your thoughts-from-up-on-high somewhere else, man. This is the least helpful and the most sanctimonious I have ever seen you.
I Absolutely Am in a Position to Say This: I Said Don't Lynch A Person and People Did Anyway

Did you mean don't lynch A Person or 'a person' because you didn't vote to lynch anyone.

(Ps - I listened)

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
timmer wrote:Yes but the seems to be a move again. Ap has contributed nothing to the game. MM has contributed in a goofy way that hasn't been very effective.

If ap is at 3 votes and mm at 0, why suddenky go for him when ther is no way to say that ap is more worthy to see sick around.

It's a word time to start creating an almost tie.
Great- Let the Mafia Kill Him (Don't Waste a Lynch)
Says the man who hasn't placed a vote yet.

And who never did... thats not like epi.

timmer wrote:And Dom ignores what is obviously a very split lynch and throws away his vote.

Yeah, I'm never a fan of that.

I hope AP is bad. It's as good a lynch as any, even though I prefer Marmot.

Three minutes

Epignosis wrote:
timmer wrote:Yes but the seems to be a move again. Ap has contributed nothing to the game. MM has contributed in a goofy way that hasn't been very effective.

If ap is at 3 votes and mm at 0, why suddenky go for him when ther is no way to say that ap is more worthy to see sick around.

It's a word time to start creating an almost tie.
Great- Let the Mafia Kill Him (Don't Waste a Lynch)

What is your opinion on a marmot lynch? What is your opinion on a lorab lynch? Where do you think your vote is most likely to land?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I have to be off. I'm going to check in on my phone prior to the deadline. Right now I'm not really feeling a Marmot lynch. I get the impression Golden and MP are suffering from a personal bias in that Marmot has voiced more suspicion of them than other have without the most substantive reasoning. It's understandable, but it isn't terribly compelling.

I was suspicious of marmot before he suspected me. I did not anticipate he would come suspecting me. I do not feel any particular bias towards voting MM because he suspects me, because I'm not convinced that he actually does in any meaningful way.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Marmot voters: could you summarize your most significant beefs very briefly?

He reminds me of Dune marmot. Nominally contributing 'real reads' but it feels more like a smokescreen of playing out what Marmot is expected to do, and it feels like he isn't really reading the thread.

Plus, he made that case against me which had significant flaws but he never showed any indication that he was interested in considering or acknowledging that there could be flaws.

I do not believe MP would have Vompatti in a rainbow list after knowing he had killed him, especially one made hurriedly when he was going out the door (far less likely to do it deliberately).

sig wrote:Also quick note before I go one of the top posters (JJJ, Sloonie, Golden, and MP) is most likely bad, I just have no clue which one it is. :P

Ok those who are not me, I would say that MP is least likely, sloonei is most likely. Jay in the middle.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Everybody is playing really well right now. Unfortunately, that means mafia is winning.

Linki: I don't know honestly.

That's how I feel. And the few that aren't really playing so well (eg, A Person), probably aren't bad and we are probably lynching them just because everyone is playing so well.

Just a note to everyone. I'm having some internet issues, so if I suddenly vanish and aren't around near end of day, that's why.

sig wrote:SO CLASSES ARE FINALLLLY DONE!

Congrats sig!

MP, when you get back, I'd like you to elaborate on your Vompatti read

MP is strong town for me. That's almost what I'd call a derpclear.

I'm voting for marmot. I'm not sure that will change, but lets see what develops.

I also won't be around a ton today (or this weekend, for that matter), but hopefully I should be around sometime near EoD since I have to post the EoD happenings in Lost Again.

Dom wrote:
timmer wrote:
Dom wrote:But if you can't tell-- I'm eyeing a bird pretty hard.
Are you, though? The last thing I see that you said re: BWT (I'm assuming you mean BWT?) was: "I think BWT explained himself somewhat adequately" That doesn't sound like "eyeing pretty hard" to me, or am I misunderstanding what you meant?
Actually, that's false.

Timmer said 'the last thing he saw that you said'.

So my question to you... did you post anything along the lines of what timmer said, that could have been the last thing he saw that you said? Or do you think it's entirely false, and you never said it.

Dom wrote:i am sad to see a bunch of you guys read me as bad. i will try and prove you wrong.

I can never read you anyway.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:SIG
SLOONEI
TIMMER
TRICE
Good
God
Good
Good

Stop sucking up to sloonei!

Golden wrote:SIG
SLOONEI
TIMMER
TRICE

Moderate bad
Slight town
Strong town
Moderate town

SIG
SLOONEI
TIMMER
TRICE

Golden wrote:MARMOT
MP
NINJA
SCOTTY

Moderate bad
Moderate town
Strong town
Slight town

MARMOT
MP
NINJA
SCOTTY

Golden wrote:EPIGNOSIS
GOLDEN
JJJ
LORAB

Moderate town
My sweetest friend
Moderate town
Slight bad

EPIGNOSIS
GOLDEN
JJJ
LORAB

Golden wrote:A PERSON
BWT
BOOMSLANG
DOM

Slight bad
Moderate town
Slight town
Slight bad

A PERSON
BWT
BOOMSLANG
DOM

Having said all of that - there could easily be redirects somewhere in the secrets, so I wouldn't presume Vompatti was the target of the kill, or that I was the target of the curse, necessarily.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Jay, what do you think of Golden?
I think he looks more town than not. I don't think it's terribly meaningful that he and I haven't agreed on all of our reads, and I think his stated reasons for disagreeing have generally been understandable. I also don't know that he'd be the type to call for/accept an insanification from a team mate on the first available day phase or use a first night kill on lynch bait like Vompatti. He's not my strongest town read, but I have no immediate issue with him.
Maybe that's my problem. There isn't much in mafia I won't do, and I might project that mindset onto other players.

You ask me why somebody would do or not do something. I counter with, that's exactly why. You question the usefulness of it, and therefore it is useful.
I think that's valid but also limited. This is a matter of strategy that not everyone may agree with, but I tend to think a baddie night kill can accomplish more than just that kind of WIFOM. It just seems like a weak choice to me. Vompatti is God's gift to baddies if he survives long enough; I don't know why people would throw away that advantage. I have a feeling Golden is closer to my own mindset on that point than many others (along with similarly-brained players like Sloonei and MP).

That's something Golden can contest or affirm as he pleases.

I agree, but I'd go a step further. I don't think that this kind of WIFOM actually moves the needle meaningfully on your chances of being voted for. Those who think you are bad will simply see it as a ploy. So, I tend to see it as something that can only damage your game (through not making meaningful and impactful choices of your power use) for no tangible gain.

I only see value in cursing one of your own team members if there is a tangible reason that it can be used as a meaningful distancing tactic in some way, close to end game.

I think people like Marmot do it more for fun than for anything.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:But I'll admit, I didn't see the other post that you pulled.

OK. I think it's very hard for me to draw the line in the sand between when you were 'chaos, not paying attention' marmot and when you were serious marmot. It feels like you are taking the game seriously now, but it felt like that with those reads.... at the time... but now that you are admitting that those reads were not fully informed, I can see more of where you are coming from.

linki - I'd be up for gth reads.

timmer wrote:Linki: lol I see... the two of you are def great to be in a game with, I like your logical breakdowns of situations, you seem to be better than me at starting from a neutral stance (I tend to see something and assume bad at first)

Jay is being so self(-and-sloonei)-centred. Obviously the reason the syndicate changed after Economics was because everyone feared my baddie skills!

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:I'm inherently suspicious of anyone trying to catch me in semantic loopholes, which is exactly what I think marmot is trying to do.
I guess I should townread you since this is your meta.

So she posted her vote LATER than the iso I posted, but you are claiming she was just following others? How does that make sense? It's blatantly clear she suspected scotty on her own.

Although... I have to admit... I'm impressed you knew that. And it does make your suspicion seem more genuine.

Why does someone 'need to come up with an example' to be telling the truth? I'm terrible at remembering games and I personally find that 'give me an example' is the biggest cop out way out of the truth possible. How about this - give me an example of a time when you have seen a 'timing' argument like the one you levelled at timmer actually be correct? Can you give me one of those?

I think it's fair to say at this point that I have no active read of sloonei. Which is different, for me. Part of it might be his day 2 silence is leaving me with a disjointed view of his game.

I'm inherently suspicious of anyone trying to catch me in semantic loopholes, which is exactly what I think marmot is trying to do.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:timmer: the timing thing. Right now, it's the scummiest thing I've seen.

nijuu: her Day 2 vote. She voted Scotty because other people were talking about him, not because she read him as bad.
MP: He claimed that my accusation against timmer based on timing is historically inaccurate, but could not come up with an example (these two things don't go together)
sig: Similar to nijuu, his Day 2 vote.

Ninja suspicion - factually incorrect

nijuukyugou wrote:Trice: Seems like Epi vote was a placeholder at first, but morphed into a "real" vote (as in, one that stuck) after responding to people's questioning the train. I see his reasoning (Epi's lack of on-topic posts, frustration at the song gimmick, etc.) although I disagree with it. Appears like a genuine vote (I wanted to be more eloquent, but I'm running out of steam after a long day).

Wilgy: Errrrrr...why are people saying Scotty's vote is the most suspicious on this train? I get that Wilgy's a nut, but Wilgy offers literally no reasoning for his vote except #lynchepi. So, yeah, that first question is a genuine question. Answer it.

Scotty: From reading his posts on Days 0 and 1 (according to the headings), it appeared like he would vote one of his "gut-baddie" reads (JJJ, Sloonei, actually votes BWT as a changeable vote), but votes Epi. I see that he said vote "something that matters," which I assume is a vote somewhere that already had votes, and he didn't go with INH because...well, actually, I'm not sure why, more than Epi. Gave a bit of a vouch as far as INH's content, but said it could've been suspicious by trying to look good? Anyway, his Epi vote, as others have said, is pretty weird. However, he is helping insanified Golden currently, which looks helpful and civ to me, barring weirdness behind the scenes.

So, I suppose what I get from that is Trice's vote looks the most genuine, Wilgy's absolute nonsense (not helpful), and Scotty's disingenuous. Discuss.

MP suspicion - daft. I came up with an example immediately (LC hounding me about what I did in 17 minutes in Bullets Over Broadway). Why does MP need to come up with a different one? Especially when your Timmer suspicion is the most contrived thing that this game has seen (and is my primary reason for suspecting you) - you completely ignored everything else timmer had said and done.

Sig suspicion - apparently 'similar to ninja', but the ninja suspicion was wrong, and how similar was it?

It just felt like you pulled three names taking a little heat out of the air and said whatever you could think of.

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