The Syndicate

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:10 pm Nobody has to do anything they don’t want to do as a host.

Not exactly true. This is still a free market system here. Just because there is supply doesn’t mean that supply is demanded. A prospective host can be pressured to retool their game or rules based on feedback. I’ve posted several game ideas that barely get any feedback as an idea, but when I go to host it, people sometimes nitpick it to death during sign-ups to the point where I feel that I have to make tweaks just to fill the game to the point where it can run.

A host can certainly do whatever they like, but players have a vote in whether a game runs or not. If a host turns people off with their style or philosophy, they can vote ‘no’ in that host’s future games. If this happens with enough people, then that host either has to start catering to the preferences of the players or else they’ll never be able to run a game.

I think I agree with most of what Syn says in their post up there ^

Newcomers who wish to host will most likely play a few games to test the waters. We are a community that loves to read new game ideas and offer feedback, so any prospective new first-time-on-TS hosts will likely have their game proposals lovingly picked apart out of curiosity over a shiny new thing.

The merits of paying attention really is what it boils down to, so bravo for expressing it that way. I’m sure we’ve all been slackers and haven’t read all of a hosts rules and roles at times, but being aware of that stuff does provide clarity.

I must admit that most of my commentary is coming less from an offensive standpoint of “you new folks need to assimilate to our ways,” and more from a defensive standpoint. Some of what I’ve read in this thread has felt to me like newer people making a list of demands on me as a host, as if to say “you must do x, y, and z for me as a prospective player of your game in order for me to understand your game and hosting style, and help me determine if I feel it meets my expectations of a ‘proper’ mafia game.”

I realize that this is not entirely the case, but certainly a product of me being a set-in-my-ways grown-ass mafia dinosaur. I’m happy we have new players, as that keeps the site vibrant and alive. I try not to get into the weeds about proper gameplay and gamesolving because I am not a regular player. Hosting is my passion, so I am more willing to be vocal about that subject.

Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut overall though, because I’m not one who really advances the culture or builds bridges between culture groups. I’m just here to hang out with cool folks and host while I still have interest in hosting and as long as people are interested in my games. Having had to follow bread crumbs from one defunct iteration of this community’s origins to another twice now, I’m at the end of the line here while it seems like a fit for me. Exploring new lands isn’t for me. When the time comes, I’ll just slowly fade myself out. Until that time comes, I just want to do what I know how to do.

As a player, I just jump in with a new host and use the experience to decide if I will be inclined to play future games of theirs. No offense, but if you want to understand my hosting style and ethos, you’re just going to have to play or follow one or two of my games. Preferably one of the more normal ones (which are few and far between at the moment). Sometimes I just don’t want you to understand my game before it starts because I think it’s more interesting and enhances the playing experience that way.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:05 pm

G-Man wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:37 am I realize that the merging of cultures means that newer folks won’t know host tendencies, but I have always put the onus on my players to ask questions. Sometimes the answer will be “hell no, I can’t/won’t answer that,” but I’m usually pretty open with clarifying things. Don’t get mad about sitting in a dark room because you never asked the landlord where the light switch is.

I don't think this is necessarily the wrong idea, but also keep in mind: to ask the landlord where the light switch is, someone must first know that there is a light switch. Sometimes hosting philosophy is so different from culture-to-culture that certain things seem fundamental or obvious -- and nobody realizes they even should ask the question or that a question is possible until it's already too late.

This list of guidelines would help players especially to know what questions to ask.

If it’s a matter of cultural “outsiders” needing to know what questions might merit asking based on tendencies of the existing culture, I would argue that “hosts do weird stuff here- don’t be afraid to ask questions, as results may vary by host” sounds like something to put in a new member orientation space, not necessarily something each host has to do every single game. Just my two cents.

My personal stance on telling players about the number of factions present is this: if a host runs an open-setup with no secret roles, then the number of factions will be obvious. If a host runs a closed-setup or open-setup with one or more secret roles, then the players sign up for the unexpected. I agree that it should become obvious that other factions exist (as has been the case in many of my games), but I don’t think a host should be required to reveal how many factions are present.

I realize that, as the jerk who ran a fake game featuring all civs and no baddies, my opinion probably doesn’t mean much to a number of folks. I think the host should always have the freedom and choice of how much they want to reveal to players before the game starts. Games by INH and Rico would have been far less interesting had we not been forced to just roll with it.

As a host, I like to throw considerable twists into some of my games. Without a little mystery and intrigue in the setup, games tend to feel too cookie-cutter or formulaic for me. I admit to being a dinosaur who takes little joy from games being solved and won too scientifically. I prefer a splash of artistry.

I realize that the merging of cultures means that newer folks won’t know host tendencies, but I have always put the onus on my players to ask questions. Sometimes the answer will be “hell no, I can’t/won’t answer that,” but I’m usually pretty open with clarifying things. Don’t get mad about sitting in a dark room because you never asked the landlord where the light switch is.

Would there be any benefit to send game rules to players with their role cards? Or perhaps even send the game rules first and require a response before following up with their role card?

Also, a question about this OGI stuff. We’ve had a general habit of not crossing the beams with live games already. Is an authoritative OGI prohibition applicable to all live games in full, regardless of which players might be dead already? Or does an OGI prohibition only apply to players who are still alive in other games?

Furthermore, how far do you want to take OGI prohibition? Once a game is over, what would have been called ‘OGI’ now becomes ‘player meta.’ If you really want to prevent other game information from influencing live games, how far of a leap is it to say that meta reads constitute something that is out of bounds of the context of the current game?

If you want live, concurrent games to exist in a vacuum from each other, why shouldn’t they also exist in a vacuum from all the games that have come before?

For the record, I have been conditioned to have zero confidence that all players in any game will read the rules.

I can speak to Escape From Russia’s kerfuffle. I aspire to let game events determine the outcome. I do not like to modkill, but I have to include it my rules so that there are worst-case consequences to worst-case actions.

In EFR, the no info-dumping rule was violated in spirit but perhaps not to the letter of the law. How many hints equate to an info-dump? I feel like that was what I faced. This happened when a player appeared to have given up on the game and then got back into it by making hints that were not subtle. Modkilling at that point would have literally handed the victory to the bad guys rather than them playing out the game and earning it.

Perhaps in this case, I as a host choose to let an awkward situation fester rather than have the concluding installment of a game series that I loved up to that point end in the lamest way possible. That’s the flip-side of the creative freedom The Syndicate affords its hosts- you can get too attached to your idea of how the game should play out, and then have it all thrown into a blender because human beings make unpredictable and irrational decisions under pressure.

Hally wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:46 pm

G-Man wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:43 pm How about hosts let players spend Day 0 drafting a set of rules (or call it a covenant if you like) that they will follow for the rest of the game. Whatever rules are agreed to by the end of Day 0 are set and all players must abide by them. If you don’t show up to participate in Day 0, then you’re stuck with whatever rules the rest of the group came up with. Kind of like politics.

i can’t tell if this is a serious suggestion but i think this is a very bad idea?

It’s a equal parts serious and silly.

As a host, I don’t want to have to think too hard about special rules for each game. Players make the game what it is. If people choose to play like a jerk then that becomes their reputation. I realize that hosts can sometimes make missteps in their game structure (guilty on at least two counts here!), but isn’t it really up to the integrity of the player to choose whether or not to exploit that?

I have no idea where I’m going with this, but I think hosts are put in awkward situations by themselves a lot, but also because players make choices that take them down paths that could not be foreseen.

Maybe I’m being superficial, but having a thorough, standard set of rules sounds like it leads to a standard style of games. That sounds a little more boring.

I agree that ‘standard rules apply’ is insufficient, but players also need to actually read the damn rules each game. I have zero sympathy for people who get themselves into a pickle with their choices in my games when they haven’t read the rules. I have enmity for those individuals whose ignorance to the rules creates problems for me as a host.

Expect and exhibit decency in all things.

I post a variation of the following in every game that I host. Given this thread’s focus, I’d like some feedback on it after all these years. What’s good about it? What’s bad about it? What’s unnecessary? What content does this mafia dinosaur need to change or update?

G-Man wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:46 pm RULES AND WHATNOT

This partially-open setup game is for 15 players. As a Heist, there are only three power roles in the game. I will be using the following standard G-Man Game matrix:

	1	2	3
A	LOL	OMG	WTF
B	FFS	Free Space	JFC
C	GTFO	YCBS	STFU

Gameplay
1) Days are 48 hours long. I will do everything in my power to keep poll deadlines consistent.
2) Nights are 24 hours long.
3) Only those players who have BTSC may communicate with each other outside of the game thread but ONLY in designated BTSC threads or chat rooms. For everyone else, no game-related discussion is permitted outside the game thread.
4) Votes in the poll are the only votes that count. It's helpful but not mandatory that you declare your vote in the thread in a way that stands out to your peers and the host.
5) All votes are changeable all the way up to the deadline.
6) A tied lynch will result in no lynch. Votes matter. (This is a politics game for goodness' sake!) There will be no coin flips to determine lynch results.
7) Standard alignment wincons are in effect unless otherwise stated.
8) Dead is dead; you don't get to come back from that. Dead players are stripped of their BTSC rights.
9) Roles will be revealed upon death.
10) Additional gameplay elements will be added/revealed on an as-needed basis.
11) A tied night poll will result in no doors being unlocked and no letters being revealed.


Rules
1) Respect your fellow players, your host, and your Facilitator/MOD.
1a) Don't be an asshat.
1b) Don't get butthurt.
2) If you feel like another player is out of line or making/taking things personal/ly, contact the Facilitator/MOD, Dunya.
3) No BTSC regarding the game outside of the game thread(s). Players are told in their rolecard if they have BTSC. If you don't have it, don't engage in it. Violating this rule will result in a modkill.
4) No editing or deleting posts.
5) Self-voting is prohibited.
6) Double-targeting is prohibited.
7) Info-dumping is allowed, but do so at your own risk. Sharing is caring, but it can also get you killed.
8) Off-topic posts should be in OT Green.
9) Dead players are to post in Dead Red.
10) Non-Players should post in Non-Player Blue.
11) This is the host's color. Do not post in this color.
12) Participation is polite to everyone involved. If I feel you may not be paying attention to the game, I will reach out to you. Replacements and modkills may be employed if necessary. If you sign up, please play. If you can't play, request replacement.
13) Additional rules will be added/revealed on an as-needed basis.

Here’s how you solve the angleshooting issue: policy lynch known angleshooters.

How about hosts let players spend Day 0 drafting a set of rules (or call it a covenant if you like) that they will follow for the rest of the game. Whatever rules are agreed to by the end of Day 0 are set and all players must abide by them. If you don’t show up to participate in Day 0, then you’re stuck with whatever rules the rest of the group came up with. Kind of like politics.