The Syndicate

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Soneji wrote:Epignosis

Dom's flip should seal it for those who weren't already convinced.

Why?

He has defended both Mongoose and Draconus based on meta reasons multiple times throughout this game. Last phase he was pushing chaindeath and Nero as teammates to make it possible for Dom to be town.

First he presents me and Dom as the other two:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Nerolunar and chaindeath are both cops. Nerolunar says he wants chaindeath lynched but has exhibited little effort to that end. chaindeath has voted Nerolunar twice, but exhibited no effort to that end. Neither one is making a strong effort against the other. At this stage of things, why aren't they at each others' throats?

Who are their team mates?

This is GTH even if I don't like it, isn't it?

Very well.

Soneji and Dom.

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Epi, what you just asserted Nero is doing is impossible unless you're willing to call Elohcin a cop.

Impossible? As in, "under no circumstances whatsoever?"

If he and chain are trying to hold it together now and instead lynch Dom to win it, then there are no townies left (unless you accuse a trusted player). If Dom is town and you're town, then Elo cannot be town.

Soneji is a trusted player now?

I didn't say that. What cop team is there if you, Eloh, and Dom are all town?

chaindeath, Nerolunar, Soneji, and Turnip Head.

Then he moves onto saying TH is the last member. Then he retracts on that:

Epignosis

Dom's flip should seal it for those who weren't already convinced.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:I rolled a 10-sided dice and it said I'm scum. No methods are working here.

Maybe its trying to tell you something.

There goes that tinfoil. So its between Dom and TH for the other Don. Dom is the more suspicious overall of the two. Who would have been TH's Consigliere from what people remember?

Theory: Dom is a Don, Epi is his Consigliere. Resulting scum team:

Sloonei
chaindeath
Nero
Elohcin

Or you for all we know Sloonei. Will have to evaluate some things

SVS I am not trying to shove suspicion on you, Prisoner asked me a question and I answered it is all. If by thread steerer you mean Prisoner, I think you might need to go reread some of our interactions if you think I am buddying him.

It likely is chaindeath but my tone read on him at least is giving me some pause. Process of elimination is hard in play however and the logical conclusion its giving me is the same as earlier:

chaindeath
Epi
Elo
Dom

I think for his part in the Scotty lynch and a bit too much tinfoil in regards to you Prisoner . That hes so strongly hostile towards anything I support doesn't help matters, its rather close minded. On second thought, Sloonei has less mechanical clearance as him being a Don requires coming to a logical conclusion from something Ika said.

That is what is confusing me. If both of them are town, then one of the strong town pile has to be mafia alongside Epi, Dom and Elo. If I had a gun to my head on who between SVS, TH and Sloonei it would be, its SVS.

I am starting to see both Nero and CD as town and its confusing the hell out of me.

Reading those interactions I can see more that the whole chaindeath/Nero thing stems from an actual misunderstanding of intent. In that early post Nero quoted from CD where he voted LC, Nero seemed to take the typing part to be about LC when I read that as CD basically saying that he fucked up in his last post where he meant to vote LC(he hadn't bolded and underlined it though). I can't remember his actual reason for voting LC, will look it up in a bit but yeah, just seems like a case of CD's weird writing style causing confusion. Then chaindeath in one of his recent posts seemed to misunderstand what Nero was suggesting in regards to picking a lynchee we're both confident in and would provide info.

That post where he corrected his formatting for his LC vote had me a bit pinged before, in that it seemed weird for him to make another post when his previous one made it clear where his vote was. That one Nero just quoted also had me pinged as it seemed to try to buddy llama, court sympathy with the skipping lunch thing and then talk about a game mechanic(host powers) that doesn't do us any good to discuss. After learning that he seems to be a newer player and that these are consistent mannerisms of his, I find it had to see any manipulative intent in those posts.

SVS have I wronged you in another life for you to be so hostile towards anything I approve of ?

I wonder if an event would take place if we killed the Warden.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Soneji wrote:My cold hard logic is generally my strongest trait in general as town and it shows through in both my ability to scumhunt and deter lynches that lack solid evidence. I'm generally detached from any kind of emotional appeal and I won't back down from insulting players to get a rise out of them. The play that I'm most known for is biding my time until a lot of posts build up, normally near phase end on days 1 and 2, then striking with a tl;dr post with all my suspicions, usually catching out a large part of the mafia team.

Could you attempt to illustrate how you've applied this skill set to your more recent spurts of contribution to this game (presumably within your larger effort to show us what you're capable of as the elected champion of NF)? I don't want this to seem like busy work -- you have my attention in a meaningful way and it might turn the game over.

I had argued against Epi's faulty reasoning against sig and also disagree with recent his argument on Nero. I have argued against all these meta reasons that people keep bringing up to dismiss suspicion on certain players(Epi, Mongoose/Dom). I've made my case for Epi recently and my argument on Mongoose/Dom has been ever building. Offered my input where I could on things like Nero/CD potentially both being town and why I had a strong townread on Quin. I can't well have anything to show for my efforts if people refuse to trust me, no matter the strength of my argument.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Soneji wrote:*That is meant to say that now that I have a better feel for this sites layout and style of play, that I'm more comfortable approaching the game now.

Its also due in good part to a game on NF I was playing in ending along with me abandoning any hope of truly catching up 100%, so I have just been focusing more on recent events and looking through ISO's. You brought up awhile ago that knowing I was in the Championship tournament last year changed your outlook on me, it starting up recently has sparked in me a desire to really show what I'm capable of, on more than just NF, to have been worthy of being called a Champion of my home site. My performance in it last year was rather pathetic.

I might be inspired. What would you say are your strongest traits as a townie? This might seem like an arbitrary question, but I have a plan for it.

My cold hard logic is generally my strongest trait in general as town and it shows through in both my ability to scumhunt and deter lynches that lack solid evidence. I'm generally detached from any kind of emotional appeal and I won't back down from insulting players to get a rise out of them. The play that I'm most known for is biding my time until a lot of posts build up, normally near phase end on days 1 and 2, then striking with a tl;dr post with all my suspicions, usually catching out a large part of the mafia team.

Sloonei wrote:

S~V~S wrote:

Sloonei wrote:I think I'd put Epi in front of Nero.

Dom
Epi
Eloh
chaindeath/Nero

I guess I'm reading Soneji as town, maybe.

Soneji has suddenly become involved now that we are talking about him & Nero is how it looks to me.

Linki, yeah that's it. Not that Nero could be bad.

I will be back to make the final vote.

As I noted earlier, Soneji has been active since Day 7. I'd like his explanation for his boost in activity before I make any statements on it.

I have explained it to an extent already:

Soneji wrote:You definitely had been tunneling on sig, unless your definition of the word is completely different.

As for my meta talk, that is kind of the point. I haven't really played much on this site, therefore I have no meta knowledge to cloud my judgement. I have meant to be more active in establishing myself here, as my participation in Flash and Pikmin was shameful, as were my earlier contributions here. I have a much better feel for this sites layout and style of play that has made me more comfortable and confident when posting here.

*That is meant to say that now that I have a better feel for this sites layout and style of play, that I'm more comfortable approaching the game now.

Its also due in good part to a game on NF I was playing in ending along with me abandoning any hope of truly catching up 100%, so I have just been focusing more on recent events and looking through ISO's. You brought up awhile ago that knowing I was in the Championship tournament last year changed your outlook on me, it starting up recently has sparked in me a desire to really show what I'm capable of, on more than just NF, to have been worthy of being called a Champion of my home site. My performance in it last year was rather pathetic.

Their pursuit of each other feels fairly genuine to me. Nero has ventured around to other targets but has stuck by his chaindeath suspicion from early on, trying to get it to go through when others seem willing to go for it as he hasn't had success pushing it by himself. He has staunchly defended his position even in the face of suspicion with some good reasoning. His paranoia levels appear to be at a healthy level for a game with such crucial question marks at a stage where a mistake cannot be afforded.

chaindeath's reaction if he is a fairly new player makes sense. He could see himself as an easy target to be jumped on by scum. I didn't fully understand his point against Nero earlier but it gave me a good vibe as a real point he believed in.

What I can say that Nero and chaindeath have that Dom and Elo don't, are what appear to be thoughts of their own, they are not straight sheeping. Dom has been straight sheeping and while he replaced late hes had several cycles now to form some opinions of his own. I haven't really seen any. Mongoose was the epitome of someone who contributes nothing while giving the illusion that they have.

Elochin has been completely absent here despite posting in the Spirited Away game. I don't remember anything that made me feel good about Serge who she replaced.

That these two came out looking the worst in process of elimination isn't really surprising.

Got replacements mixed up. Dom replaced Mongoose. With the error in Prisoner's match-ups of Dom being corrected to show no likely scenario that hes town as well.

Dom

I didn't notice any errors. Elo looks to be the optimal lynch by process of elimination. She is avoiding this thread and her predecessors didn't look good at all to me.

Elochin

There is certainly merit in that methodology Prisoner. At this point with so few players, process of elimination is key. I could agree that Nero/chaindeath isn't likely and Epi/Nero to a lesser extent. So for me the most likely scum team is:

Epi
chaindeath
Dom
Elo

Dom
Elo
Epi

The fourth I can't come up with. All the others are pretty firmly in the town pile. Someone, I think it was Sloonei maybe, brought up the idea that the cops had a lynch stop and used it to save TH, so maybe its him. Maybe Ika as the seemer made a super risky gamble for no apparent reason and presented his scummate Sloonei to look like a Don. Or SVS is playing a godlike scum game.

I can envision it mainly due to the fact that townies have been at each other throats all game. Unless Scotty was the seemer, we have a consensus townie in SVS who was certain Scotty was scum for some time. Both Nero and chaindeath have done things that could look scummy to the other, while both if town know they are town. So they are looking at the other thinking that hes the scummy one of the two, as no way both of them can be after everything.

After Boomslang and Ika, its hard to believe that townies can't look awfully scummy, even if one of them was the seemer.

Soneji also feels it prudent to note that Elochin has been posting in the Spirited Away game while I can't remember the last time she has posted here.

Soneji needs chaindeath to clarify what he means with his question about Nerolunar. Do you mean that Nero has provided no case as to why people are scum or that he is advocating an info lynch over just lynching the person we think he is scum?

Soneji is very good with words but he fails to comprehend them when they are in an order that makes no sense. He feels that by talking in third person he may better understand the enigma that is chaindeath.

chaindeath, speak up please. I see you lurking. I need some third person speech in my life.

Dom wrote:whos bad

You, by all accounts.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:I don't choose to distrust you, Soneji. It just happened because game circumstance has dictated that. What can you show me in your post history and votes that you believe evidences a pro-town mindset?

I have pursued multiple suspects for my own reasons, tried to stop potential towning by arguing against what I found to be faulty reasoning a few times and been forthcoming in answering questions. Most of my main suspects are still alive, chaindeath and Mongoose/Dom from early in the game and for the last several phases Epi. I have been wrong about TH and potentially both of Ika and Boomslang. I wasn't around for the Fuzz lynch, though in the moment I probably wouldn't have agreed with it, as I explained in my read of Quin.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Whoever is town, this been the scummiest town I've ever seen. Epi cried about the votes on him, they moved immediately, and it's still crickets.

All the people who moved are in the town pile though. If Chaindeath, Dom or Elo had done anything then we could get something going but they're not around. I said my piece about Nero, if you choose to distrust me that is your prerogative.

Epignosis wrote:

Nerolunar wrote:We should also be careful of bussing and new wagons popping up. There is probably going to be an attempted save at some point.

Read: We must regard any alternative lynches as save attempts because Epignosis is bad, and we must regard any additional votes on Epignosis as bussing because Epignosis is bad.

Way to think things through.



Nerolunar

Maybe you missed the word "careful" there. Looking out for those just joining your wagon without good reason to do so or counterwagons that don't have a strong basis, is not the same as regarding every alternative lynch as a save or votes on you as bussing. Twisting suggestions to the extreme to paint someone as scum is almost exclusively done by anti-town.

Epi seems to have a unique relation with certain words, cop-like even. I didn't avoid the gun-fight between Ika and Fuzz, this Zebra just came out of nowhere and I had to defend myself! I didn't relentlessly pursue this man who had barely any connection with the mafia just due to the numerous false allegations hes had in the past, he really looked dirty this time! I swear!

Epignosis

You definitely had been tunneling on sig, unless your definition of the word is completely different.

As for my meta talk, that is kind of the point. I haven't really played much on this site, therefore I have no meta knowledge to cloud my judgement. I have meant to be more active in establishing myself here, as my participation in Flash and Pikmin was shameful, as were my earlier contributions here. I have a much better feel for this sites layout and style of play that has made me more comfortable and confident when posting here.

Ika was probably the seemer. There was that whole thing where he said an arrest failed on Sloonei. The guy was just extremely scummy besides. He did flip Stool Pigeon though, which if the Don was the role whose identity he knew, he may just have guessed that the failed arrest was on his Don(Sloonei in this case). Weird to out it like that but Ika didn't follow normal standard of play.

Either way, Sloonei can be removed from the pile.

Sloonei wrote:

Soneji wrote:Lets look at the numbers here. There are four cops to eight civs, if we assume that the seemer has been lynched. The cops will arrest at least one player tonight, potentially two. Lets assume the former, that puts us at four cops, seven civs. A mislynch next day phase will put as at best 4 vs 5 after the subsequent night phase. So at most, we can afford one mislynch if the cops don't get lucky with their 20% chance of lynching a second player.

The Scotty lynch was based on meta reasoning mainly, from how he acted in another game I wasn't in. I have had Epi try to shoot down my suspicion on Mongoose for meta reasons, SVS was saying Epi wouldn't tunnel sig if he was mafia due to meta reasons, etc...it seems this site has an over reliance on meta. Even the suspicion on me has never fully taken off as people are hesitant due to not knowing my meta. We need to stop thinking about meta and just judge the actions by themselves.

What are some actions you judge to be suspicious?

Epi's avoidance of the Fuzz lynch and tunneling of sig all game. Mongoose's lack of contributions when she was in the game while posting in a way that made her seem contributive, with a weird focus on getting a vote in(wanted to do a vote trade with TH so as not to vote "randomly"). Chaindeath as a whole.

S~V~S wrote:Soneji, based on thread related reasons, who do you trust?

You: For your part in the Fuzz lynch, it didn't really gain strong steam till you jumped on it with your reasoning
Black Rock: Since you vouched for her
Turnip Head: The failed lynch implies hes a Don
Prisoner: Obvious reasons
Quin: Rather strong townread that I explained earlier

Leaving:

Dom
Elo
Epi
Chaindeath
Nerolunar
Sloonei

Lets look at the numbers here. There are four cops to eight civs, if we assume that the seemer has been lynched. The cops will arrest at least one player tonight, potentially two. Lets assume the former, that puts us at four cops, seven civs. A mislynch next day phase will put as at best 4 vs 5 after the subsequent night phase. So at most, we can afford one mislynch if the cops don't get lucky with their 20% chance of lynching a second player.

The Scotty lynch was based on meta reasoning mainly, from how he acted in another game I wasn't in. I have had Epi try to shoot down my suspicion on Mongoose for meta reasons, SVS was saying Epi wouldn't tunnel sig if he was mafia due to meta reasons, etc...it seems this site has an over reliance on meta. Even the suspicion on me has never fully taken off as people are hesitant due to not knowing my meta. We need to stop thinking about meta and just judge the actions by themselves.

You misunderstood. My talk of keeping things close to the vest was based on you bringing up later posts by Epi to defend against his earlier reactions. I was stating that while later info shouldn't be discounted, posts should also be looked at in a vacuum.

Epi has only been a fringe suspect most of this game. I couldn't ignore his continued pursuit of sig though and earlier slight pings I had earlier on Epi drew me to finally look into his post history more.

I have been deciding between Epi and chaindeath. Sig's flip I would say has more firmly put me in the Epi camp, based on his constant tunneling of a player who to my understanding is lynched a lot as town for being unusual. Low hanging fruit is what we would call him on NF.

Epignosis

Quin wrote:I've been thinking about the capo/crew team more than anything else lately. Given their role, they should have a task to do today, yes? I'll be keeping an eye out and hopefully I can get some town reads from that hypothesis.

Did anything ever come of this Quin? Its fairly late in the game, so the more semi-confirmed town members we have the better at this point. Process of elimination our way to victory.

Quin wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

Quin wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

Quin wrote:
At day 1 I think we should be addressing even the minor concerns. I'm aware that in the long run the traitors are going to be triggered regardless, but even so, I think we should be trying to delay that risk for the safety of the dons.

I've got no problem with it being addressed, but I think the proposals being made in the thread were over-reactions to a very minor point and there is no need to continue discussing it beyond what has been said. So I should stop saying things about it now.
How's your first Big Game going so far?

I feel like this game could go on for weeks, I'm curious to see how the dynamic changes over such a long period.

How are things at this beginning period, though? Which players have caught your eye?

ika, for reasons I have previously stated.

Wilgy has also caught my eye for his abnormal posts. Someone called him out on it before, but the 'oink's he is shoving into his posts are just really...weird. My initial thoughts were that he is one of the capo/crew and his mission is to present himself as scum in his posts, but I need to dwell on that further. At this point it is a leaning town read, but I am also really confused by him.

If Wilgy had been a cop, I would very much have read this post as you being mafia. How exactly would "present yourself as scum" be defined with when the only outcomes are success and failure? With Wilgy being a civ, this comes off more as keeping an open mind and you stuck to looking for clues as to the capo/crew situation.

Quin wrote:

agleaminranks wrote:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:@Gleam

Did you actually post civ reads on anyone though? Other than me? Please show because I think I missed those.

I didn't. I don't have solid reads on people apart from how they normally act in other games.

I think Matt is being a bit more quiet than normal, I think I remember him being a little more pandering for discussion than usual. But I have no reason to suspect him as being bad.

Scott and Epignosis are both acting pretty typical, even if they're somewhat low posters for the game right now.

The only other people I have played games with before (Mongoose, llama, zebra) have all been pretty inactive in the game right now. I'm inclined to say civilian just because their contributions seem normal.

I think S~V~S has a false read on me but I don't have reason to suspect her as bad.

Sloonei wrote:

agleaminranks wrote:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Agreeing with what you are saying doesn't equal reading you as a civ.

SVS and Sloonei pointed out something I hadn't yet noticed. I then read your posts and concluded that indeed, you were saying a lot without actually getting yourself involved in the actual game (hunting baddies).

When we're this early in the game and far more likely (statistically) to lynch a good guy, I'm more focused on minimizing civilian deaths than actively trying to suss out the police. That's just my strategy. You can agree with it or not, but that's what makes the most sense to me. Granted, once a day or two goes by and we have some patterns to examine, then the baddie hunt needs to become the main focus. If I'm still being noncommittal at that point, you can criticize me of not getting involved all you want. But I've certainly been participating in the discussion. Going all gung-ho and throwing accusations left and right isn't the only way to get involved.

What exactly do you mean by this? Are you saying you'd prefer not to lynch anyone today?

Ideally, I think it would be best if no one got lynched the first day.

Think of this mathematically. I'm of the firm opinion that no one has enough concrete evidence on anyone else to make more than, say, a 10 or 20% educated guess on alignment. We're close to lynching at random here. It's no different from a first day lynch. Statistically then we are more likely than not to lynch someone good. Then we wait for the results of the night actions to formulate more solid theories.

These are the two scenarios at this point:

1. The lynch vote ends up being civilian. The night phase happens, the Police Chief (unless they target the Don) is probably going to succeed in arresting someone. We're down two noble mafiosos/mafiosas.

2. The lynch vote ends up being police. Unless the Chief is lynched (a one in thirty chance), some mafia is probably going to be arrested. One baddie is down, we're down one good guy.

The first scenario is more likely to happen by a factor of 5. I agree that if a baddie is lynched this early, yes, it will go a long way towards helping the mafia teams in the long run. But. You risk civilian death as well. Some people might argue that it's worth the risk of killing a civvie if the chance of taking down even one baddie is there, I just don't agree with that strategy. Maybe it's a matter of personal taste to want to be more restrained. If we were able to somehow avoid lynching someone Day 1 then we would most likely be down one civvie but we also wouldn't be down two, probably. But that's not part of the rules, so I have to come up with my best educated guess.

I'd like to hug you. No lynches are fantastic.

I'm on page 12 right now and so far there's nothing that has convinced me to change my vote. We'll see how it goes. I think there's like, 30 minutes of day left so I'll be fast.

Maybe its my bias for being looked down upon strongly for advocating No Lynch in my early days of playing NF mafia but I've found that those who show themselves enthusiastically supporting no lynch are town. Its usually the ones that condemn the players who did it that are mafia.

Quin wrote:

Enrique wrote:Hey folks I'd like to remind you that there are six friggin cops so manipulation of tight lynches should be easy. I suggest y'all get your shit together and join me in voting Diiny because he's clearly the right choice

Or come to a consensus yourselves. It's been a way hectic past couple days for me and I'm not really following the game as well as I could be, and I can't say I have many reads besides being freaked out by Diiny's over-eagerness (supatownin?) and general vagueness to his actions.

jeez dudes the game just started why are you being so demanding already

btw wilgy's plan is terrible and the don would have to be a silly billy to go through with it

I hope I'm not alone in seeing this as though it was written extremely half-assed. He's pushing for a Diiny vote, yet advocating that we should be lynching whoever we want to lynch. On top of that, he immediately goes to present some weak justification to go with his hardcore push. It just seems extremely contradictory. He says that he's 'the right choice' but he's not said anything of value in the thread that might lead me to think that. Same with Wilgy's plan. There's absolutely nothing in the thread by him that would explain why he disagrees.

One of those rather sound logic posts I was referring to. Its unfortunate though that Enrique and his successor are the type of town who come off blatantly scummy, as the contradictions pointed out are spot on. His next two posts are also on pressuring Enrique with similarly valid points.

I generally liked that you put some genuine thought into your suspicion of Scotty based on the Tranq lynch, there is a clear progression of thought there that makes it seem unlikely for mafia to be trying to fake a case. That you didn't pursue it to a pointless end d1 is also a point in your favor.

On your hesitation on the Fuzz vote, I do think you had a point that his supposed contradiction was more a twist, in that he didn't want to discuss the actual situation that existed based on Ika/Silverwolf's posts regarding other and their thinking that they were being "persecuted" for being new. That doesn't mean he didn't have any individual thoughts on either and wouldn't vote them. He flipped scum but that doesn't mean the reason the bandwagon was started was based on solid evidence, though others might have had more reasons on why they suspected Fuzz than just his Ika vote. You really were in the thick of things the majority of d1/d2, so your resistance to a lynch not based on the pressure you applied and reasoning that has had more discussion around it feels genuine.

You have a lot of posts and I don't feel its really necessary for me go through all of them. Reading your first eight pages worth on your post history has reconfirmed why my gut read of you was town. You have pressured anyone without pause while also not attempting to buddy anyone, despite the suspicion on you. You keep an open mind and are willing to change up where you apply pressure if your current avenue is yielding no results, while still keeping the suspicion on that player for a later time. You have a willingness to talk about game mechanics, though you generally explain your thought process in a way that comes off very organic.

Quin wrote:I called Soneji out for town reading me with no concrete material and he said it was just because of an overall assessment of my posts. I asked him for specific examples but never got them. He'd probably place an orange on my rainbow list, it just seems like he wanted the argument to fade out and be forgotten. It shall not.

Unlike some others, I follow through with things I have said I will do. I spent all of my free time between my two jobs making that post on Epi. I have tomorrow off until night, I will address you then.

Scotty wrote:

Soneji wrote:

S~V~S wrote:I find it interesting that sig & especially Soneji managed to pop in to say they thought Epi was bad, but neither stayed around to answer the same question about Scotty. Especially since I asked Soneji in linki.

I didn't see your message, just went and clicked submit again when it did the linki thing as you call it. Scotty is a total null read. He is just there for me, I can barely remember anything the guy has said this whole game. If hes mafia, hes done a great job blending.

Thanks man. Can't remember me? Might be Alzheimer's. May wanna check that out.

I can't remember you all game either. With your 37 posts.

Thats almost an average of 5 posts a day. I'm proud of myself

Hey Sloonei:

I cnduo't bvleiee taht I culod aulaclty uesdtannrd waht I was rdnaieg. Unisg the icndeblire pweor of the hmuan mnid, aocdcrnig to rseecrah at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mttaer in waht oderr the lterets in a wrod are, the olny irpoamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rhgit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whoutit a pboerlm. Tihs is bucseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey ltteer by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Aaznmig, huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghhuot slelinpg was ipmorantt! See if yuor fdreins can raed tihs too.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Soneji wrote:1. That he was avoiding participating in the current discussion by acting as if he wasn't up to date with the thread. Something he did while also presenting himself as being able to solve the current dilemma.

Please show me a specific example of "something he did while also presenting himself as being able to solve the current dilemma". I can't make any use of these assertions thrown into your post without a reference to what you're talking about.

You provided an example yourself:

Epignosis wrote:I wish I understood what this plan was so I could go ahead and tell you all how foolish it is.

He said this in regards to the traitor discussion on D1. Acts as if he doesn't know what the plan was while also assuming that its foolish somehow, despite not knowing what the plan entailed.

He also implied that he had the ability to take apart my argument on him yet refrained from doing so.

Soneji wrote:2. That he would subtly throw suspicion on players without directly accusing them, like ge did with gleam in the post you quoted.

Are you referring to the post in which Epignosis voted for agleam? How is that subtle? He prodded a player who hadn't posted much to that point, and once he had some content to work with he moved away from that -- he even defended agleam when that bandwagon started to mount.

No I'm not referring to the post in which he prodded gleam and as it was a vote just to prod its irrelevant to him bringing up how fast gleam supposedly responded to his prod, then acting as if he wasn't implying anything by that. That was an indirect accusation.
Keep in mind that there was around half an hour between his prodding post and gleam's response, enough time to where it can't be considered someone just watching over the thread just to see if they're mentioned. This defending of gleam as you call it starts of with just saying he won't vote gleam as gleam gets lynched early too much:

Epignosis wrote:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:I'm sorry, your responses could be genuine but you are filling every box of my checklist.

- First you were not trying to hunt scum.
- Then people called you out and you literally accused all three people who were suspecting you. In other words, OMGUS.
- Then you say you are trying to protect civs when you had never posted a single civ read.
- Then you pull the "no lynch" theory out of nowhere. Which is a objectively bad theory because we can't win the game unless we try to lynch people.
- And now you are pigbacking on someone to validade your own points, when that someone doesn't actually have the same opinion as you. I've got lynched twice before as mafia for doing that, and lynched another mafioso for it. I think it's a good scumtell.

I refuse to vote for agleaminranks. Gleam gets lynched early all the time. I think the last time he told us to sit and spin or something.

The only other post he made regarding gleam d1 was speculating that if Wilgy was a cop, then gleam was likely a cop. This slight defense doesn't mean much. The general scumtell is that the mafia will cast suspicion on a player without directly accusing them, hoping some townie will take up that argument for them/that the point will stick in some minds. The smart mafia members might even defend the player they cast the initial suspicion on, if they have an angle for it, to further disassociate themselves from being a catalyst in the lynch of a town player. Epi's later defense of gleam consisted of solely asking why gleam was a suspect, making a joke about him passing wind. Later on he said he had no strong read on gleam and asked Golden to explain the case against gleam, with that being his last post on the matter the day gleam got lynched. Then in the night following gleam's lynch he heavily criticizes the basis for the gleam lynch despite not having argued against the actual points of the case, which could have saved gleam's life if he bothered to show people why they weren't valid. He yells at people to pay attention, when hes constantly not in the know as to why people are being suspected and doesn't argue against lynches he thinks are stupid.

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I've made up my mind. As of now, it's DDL or sig for me tomorrow. You clowns go on and HURRRR CFD CFD tomorrow and I will vote the shit out of you too. Stop that shit. It's stupid. You get Mafia once every fifteen or twenty times doing it. You hit a civilian and it's "Aw, Barnacles" and when it actually happens, you pat yourselves on the back like you actually accomplished something. No more bullshit lynches.

I'm mostly talking to Golden here.

I'm mostly talking to you when I say I don't care what you think

But my vote tomorrow will almost certainly be sig or DDL too. Today it was almost certainly sig or gleam. If it had been sig yesterday it would have been gleam tomorrow. I don't really equate what happened at the end of that last day to what happened at the end of day 2 at all, they were completely different things. EoD4 was not a CFD.

And I don't agree with you. Day 2 was not "CFD," though some took it as such. Day 4 was. Gleam didn't do anything or say anything like Fuzz did. He got lynched for a theory based on votes. I would like less of that and more, you know, paying attention please.

Soneji wrote:3. Using meta reasons to defend Mongoose while implying that Sloonei is scum for not dismissing his read "as that is just Mongoose's meta".

It's not a great reason to pursue the lynch of Sloonei, but it's not a bad reason to toss out a flier vote in the game's earliest stages either. Had Epi actually made this into something meaningful and pursued it harder as a real case, I might agree with you. He didn't do that though, and for 95% of the game he has made no moves against Sloonei.

First impressions matter quite a lot in this game. Epi sent out the notion that this is how Mongoose is, so she shouldn't be voted for for the way she was acting. Its a roadblock to actual discussion, he did the same to me when I made a case on Mongoose:

Epignosis wrote:

Soneji wrote:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Somehow I managed to skip a large post by Soneji.

He makes a good point on Mongoose, though in the last quote, I have to say the fact she is asking about how mafia is played here is because she is back after a long hiatus, during which a lot of people from different communities came here and change the usual playstyle.

I understood the context of how she was trying to come across(as naive of possible new habits), its just that the context in which the question was asked(as a prerequisite to a stated desire to vote lynch Ika) is rather scummy. If the question about voting people to get their attention came prior to a vote on Ika/stated desire to vote Ika, I likely wouldn't find the behavior suspicious. Lack of confidence in your own reads is also more indicative of scum, who don't want to be seen as going after the wrong people or having weak reasoning. If Ika's behavior was in any way normal in the community as it is now, people wouldn't have been suspecting him for it as much as they did D1, which should have clued Mongoose in. Even so, she felt the need to be sure that her reasoning was sound in the eyes of others.

Have you ever met Mongoose before?

As well as to Silverwolf:

Epignosis wrote:

Silverwolf wrote:

Draconus wrote:

Silverwolf wrote:

Sloonei wrote:Why are people voting for Draconusgoose?

Silverwolf wrote:Oh I switched my vote to Draconus

I expect sig to be the lynch today but I want to voice my opinions on others I'm suspecting and the fact that Draconus has done very little since replacing reminds me of how myself and others I've seen react to replacing into a scum slot. Be mostly inactive and then just post the bare minimum without really saying much.

I still suspect Soneji for posts that don't really say anything at all and because I think scum are laying low this game while town attacks each other, but I don't see the point of sitting on that vote by myself right now.

Draconus hasn't done much of anything since replacing. Soneji hasn't done anything all game. They both need to be pushed eventually if we are gonna win this. And if they continue, then lynched IMO.

Your pressure doesn't bother aapje at all. Besides, Alice just started playing.

moresque are your thoughts on The Cyber Controller viands votes? Thoughts overthwart thanks?

Like, WTF is this post? Bascially self votes and does no scumhunting or make any attempt at game solving. I mean, yes, he did replace but has had enough time to at least make a decent vote-yet doesn't.

Have you met Draconus before?

Soneji wrote:4. Devolving the thread into filler talk about basketball.

Yeah I'm not going to seriously call someone scummy because they talked about basketball. That was the most outwardly absurd accusation I hurled at him in that fake case.

Its really in the context of when he talked about basketball, watching a TV show, etc. that stands out. Like when he has zebra wanting him to share his suspicions:

Epignosis wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I've got some of these to go around.

Dish 'em out then, we need more then unspecified suspicions.

Golden asking him if he had anything else on his mind other than his tunnel vision on Nero:

Epignosis wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:

Epignosis wrote:New train of thought: Nerolunar should be lynched. Go.

You're awfully focused on him. Is there anything else on your mind?

Yes, but nothing game related. I'm hoping I win money tonight after a shitty weekend.

But hell yeah I'm awfully focused on him.

Nerolunar was in third place after sig and LC. LC was good. I suspect sig too, but I figure he's going to get enough today without my help. There's more than two cops, and I still think Nerolunar is one of them. I want to know why the thread went nuts for LC out of nowhere (in terms of a 48 hour day), but Nerolunar got no added votes.

Nah. I'm going to eat the delicious roast I made and then lose some more money on basketball.

TH prodding Epi for some more output in a joking fashion:

Epignosis wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Welcome to the Silverika show everybody.

I bought tickets to the Epignosis show but it must have been canceled, who do I contact for a refund?

My show got canceled because Stephen Curry is a bitch on his birthday.

Or like recently when he acted as if he could destroy my argument against him but instead hes going to go watch Gotham and I'm supposedly lucky for that.

Oh really? And this subtle discrediting comment has no value whatsoever toward the town cause. It can serve no purpose but to add doubt to my perspective of my own work and others' perspectives of my own work. I've never called myself "town's leader" or done anything to assume that role other than play as hard as I can, and the fact that you specifically felt the need to identify me in that regard with the implication that I don't know what I'm talking about is frankly the scummiest thing you've said.

Yes, the Epignosis case was fake. Yes, you took the bait hook, line, and sinker.

There should be doubt as to whether or not you are on the right track as there hasn't been a cop lynch since day 2, unless the seemer has been lynched. I generally categorize town players into three categories: shepherds, sheep and sheepdogs. The shepherds are the voices that are most trusted, they lead the majority of lynches. The sheep are your standard middling effort townfolk who will follow the shepherd that makes the most appealing case to them. The sheepdog are the main scumhunters, those tasked with finding the wolves(mafia), generally pushing every ones buttons to see whose snap has fangs. I'm a sheepdog, I've never been that great at getting people to follow my lynches despise my high success rate at finding mafia. You came into this thread acting like a shepherd and you seemed to know what you were doing but I have had my doubts lately if you have what it takes to see which group I separate the sheep into have such sharp teeth, such long claws.

You seem to disregard initial impressions based off of some things later on that might point elsewhere, disregarding whats important at the core. The kind of reads you hold close to the vest are those on players who if they know people are onto them will shape up their act. You bide your time with them so that they can continue to slip up enough to make a case on them that others will follow. Epi has consistently tunneled on a small handful of players(Nero, DDL, sig), dodges giving reads on players other then his select few and acts as if he doesn't know whats going on with the major events of the day. Only recently has he cleaned up his act somewhat.

S~V~S wrote:I find it interesting that sig & especially Soneji managed to pop in to say they thought Epi was bad, but neither stayed around to answer the same question about Scotty. Especially since I asked Soneji in linki.

I didn't see your message, just went and clicked submit again when it did the linki thing as you call it. Scotty is a total null read. He is just there for me, I can barely remember anything the guy has said this whole game. If hes mafia, hes done a great job blending.

S~V~S wrote:A quick question for Nero, Quin, Scotty, Serge, sig & Soneji~

What do you all think of Epignosis?

If I hadn't already made this clear, I think hes mafia.

If 5:

Chaindeath
Elochin
Dom
Epi
Nero

If 4: Remove Nero/whichever of Dom/Elo replaced Serge. Will need to do more research.

Are you wanting specific posts that gave me town vibes or something Quinn? I haven't paid particular attention to your posts but the general feeling I got when reading the ones I did was that your assessments were logical and genuine. I am not one to do any kind on detailed town read, I just go by gut. I have never been pinged by a post I have read by you.

Its not really feasible at the moment for me to be able to post all I need to fully make my points, while on my phone typing parts in between customers. I'll get back to you once I am at home.

Epignosis wrote:

Soneji wrote:If you found the points you brought up against Epi silly, I would like to know what qualifies as scummy in your book.

If I didn't have to go watch two hours of Gotham, I would have fun with you. Lucky for you, I have to go watch two hours of Gotham.

As expected, dodging any kind of confrontation with an excuse while acting as if you would be a shining beacon of logic if only you had the time ti participate.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Soneji wrote:I am not sure what makes you think I have a keen understanding of the game thread. My defense of sig? That is a simple matter of looking through his post history days 1-4 and reading those where he mentions gleam and Ika, to see if Epi's suspicions held water. I have a very keen understanding of the game of mafia as a whole, I'm a top 5 best player on my main mafia site, so I can notice the small details.

There have been numerous cases and suspicions fielded in recent memory. What was it about my case against Epignosis and his case against sig that inspired you to specifically join the thread and add commentary? Your content is limited because you've not done that for every discussion.

Soneji wrote:Your argument didn't look in any way to take his posts out of context, based on my memory of when they were made, which for some of them is fuzzy.

You see, that's the fun part. Because my case against Epignosis was straight up fake. I was actually laughing as I compiled it, making some silly points that I'd never make in a sincere case.

Soneji wrote:The Enrique one I had quoted with a comment several days ago and I have read the majority of d2, so his dodging of the Fuzz/Ika situation has certainly not been misconstrued. He had more than enough time to get a grasp on the situation. He had everything prior to those supposed seven pages read, enough to have the ability to make a judgement call. Only mafia generally have reason to want to avoid looking bad by choosing the wrong person to vote. The Enrique thing was a red flag since to my remembrance he made that post after being called out for not announcing his Enrique vote in the poll in the game thread. It comes off as deflection.

I agree that Epi's vote for Zebra during the CFD was poor, and that alone is the best case against him.

I post whatever catches my fancy that I think will benefit town, within the time I find for this game. I was focused on doing a fairly thorough read of the entire thread for most of this game, though I gave that up as a lost cause once I managed to read up until the end of d2. I am trying now to focus on the present and the arguments being brung up against people now, using post history to make my own judgement on the findings. When I have the chance I will do a few ISO's of my own.

I have read sig as town almost any time I've read his posts during my read through or skim of current posts. That Epi is trying to bring him back to the forefront now caught my interest, so I decided to look into the matter, especially as Epi's been a fringe suspect for me most of the game.

If you found the points you brought up against Epi silly, I would like to know what qualifies as scummy in your book. The points you brought up against Epi were:

1. That he was avoiding participating in the current discussion by acting as if he wasn't up to date with the thread. Something he did while also presenting himself as being able to solve the current dilemma.

2. That he would subtly throw suspicion on players without directly accusing them, like ge did with gleam in the post you quoted.

3. Using meta reasons to defend Mongoose while implying that Sloonei is scum for not dismissing his read "as that is just Mongoose's meta".

4. Devolving the thread into filler talk about basketball.

5. Avoiding the d2 lynch despite acting as if he would break the tie.


All of these are valid scumtells and Epi does display them in the posts you brought up and elsewhere. I am going to take your assertion as low level bait, so I can maintain some illusion that towns current leader knows what hes talking about.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Soneji wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Hey Soneji, could you please be a bit more specific about my case against Epignosis -- what about it did you find agreeable? I just need to assess your mindset.

That Epi makes himself out as a big shot yet avoids any matters where he can show his superior knowledge as well as his tendency to avoid direct accusations. That post he made in regards to Enrique about liking it when he can just vote without noticing it threw up some red flags during one of my full read throughs, as has his shifty behavior on tight lynches.

Okay, that is a post I referenced, though I made no comment about his stated preference for not clearly stating his votes in the thread. You were highly specific in the context you lent to your defense of sig above, but your attack on Epignosis lacks the same context. Why was that a red flag for you, and what shifty behavior are you referring to specifically in tight lynches? You seem to have a very keen understanding of this game thread for someone with less than 30 posts; you're paying close attention to small details. This might sound odd coming from me after my own case against Epignosis, but, well...

I am not sure what makes you think I have a keen understanding of the game thread. My defense of sig? That is a simple matter of looking through his post history days 1-4 and reading those where he mentions gleam and Ika, to see if Epi's suspicions held water. I have a very keen understanding of the game of mafia as a whole, I'm a top 5 best player on my main mafia site, so I can notice the small details.

Unlike with sig, I didn't read through Epi's post history as I ran out of time before work. I am going off of general memory here for him. Your argument didn't look in any way to take his posts out of context, based on my memory of when they were made, which for some of them is fuzzy. The Enrique one I had quoted with a comment several days ago and I have read the majority of d2, so his dodging of the Fuzz/Ika situation has certainly not been misconstrued. He had more than enough time to get a grasp on the situation. He had everything prior to those supposed seven pages read, enough to have the ability to make a judgement call. Only mafia generally have reason to want to avoid looking bad by choosing the wrong person to vote. The Enrique thing was a red flag since to my remembrance he made that post after being called out for not announcing his Enrique vote in the poll in the game thread. It comes off as deflection.