The Syndicate

Golden wrote:I'm going to see if that functions at work, which is my basic problem with Chatzy.

I know it's not counted as Message Boards/Forums. A couple years ago, before I became self-employed, I couldn't access any forums in my workplace but QT was never an issue.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Thanks for the suggestion! I do remember now that a QT was used for last year's Champions game on Turnip Head's team. I started playing mafia nearly 6 years ago now on Lostpedia-based mafia communities and chatzy was the go-to service for chatrooms by that time already, so it's stuck around for familiarity and because people like the real time chat feel of it.

Recently we've done some on-site private threads, as Jay mentioned, and some people like them but some people really don't because you have to be logged in to the site and it doesn't have the real time aspect.

Before we came across QT (about 4-5 years ago), BTSC used to be done only via PMs. So, we never got into the whole "real-time" aspect. It seems cumbersome to me which is probably because I'm used to the forum format. Our BTSC threads are pretty much the same as the game threads, in the way people "chat" with each other.

Marco wrote:Not to mention, multiple mafia factions are the norm. And it's also very common to find Masons, cultists, etc. It also lets the Host have a tight leash on everything and make sure everything goes perfectly.

That's actually the norm historically here as well, though the largest game I've ever seen on an LP-based site I think was 50 players, so our games don't get quite as high. Over the past year we added the Heist format for simpler games; other than that, I played predominantly 20-40 player role madness games for most of my career without even knowing of anything else.

Pretty much the same. Until about 2 years go (when I discovered Epicmafia), the only "small" games I played were in RL. And I still find larger role madness games more appealing. I really love the tactical aspect of them which one can't find in "generic" games. When I say generic, I don't mean that everyone is a generic. Just that the majority of roles will be generic, or the opposite of role madness.

Zexy wrote:

Marco wrote:Private threads would be great, but mafia is just a small part of the website I come from and some of the higher staff like to keep us on a tight leash, so we don't have any such options. QT's are the perfect alternative. They're really convenient for role madness games as there's so many abilities, players, roles, gambits, etc to keep track of.

Can't agree more, I can relate to the higher staff part a lot. I even use QTs as notepads when hosting.
At least we got "conversations" which are PMs in XenForo software and look like threads, that's good enough stuff.

Yeah, our Mafia board has had a very eventful history with some of the staff members. We actually didn't have a section of our own until 3-4 years ago. It was made just so post counts could be disabled for the entire board. Definitely made us a lot more organized but it's made it harder to attract fresh blood.

[qupte]

On our board, 20 player games are considered small and there're usually 2-3 60+ player games each year (average game size is around 25-30 players, and the preferable size is generally ~40). And most mafia teams usually have each member with 2-3 abilties with a Godfather (and maybe Backup) having 4-5. And a lot of games go beyond this. So you can see how chatrooms would be a big inconvenience.

I can't really relate to this, though, 20 player games are considered pretty big for us. 2-3 abilities with GF is commonplace for our role madness games as well, though. And if you think chat rooms are inconvenient in big scum teams... have you checked the MU mashes? 85-man, 57-man... scum teams of 15-21 people using SKYPE. There's some madness [/quote]

MU has giant games like this?? I thought there were into the whole "pure" vanilla mafia philosophy.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:Private threads would be great, but mafia is just a small part of the website I come from and some of the higher staff like to keep us on a tight leash, so we don't have any such options. QT's are the perfect alternative. They're really convenient for role madness games as there's so many abilities, players, roles, gambits, etc to keep track of. On our board, 20 player games are considered small and there're usually 2-3 60+ player games each year (average game size is around 25-30 players, and the preferable size is generally ~40). And most mafia teams usually have each member with 2-3 abilties with a Godfather (and maybe Backup) having 4-5. And a lot of games go beyond this. So you can see how chatrooms would be a big inconvenience.

The only downside I've come across is if there is a role in the game that gains nightly BTSC with a different player each night. It makes much more sense to create Chatzy rooms each time rather than a new private thread.

QTs are pretty convenient in this regard. You can make as many threads as you want and they're all private, so only the people with the direct link can access them. And once you sign up, all the QTs you've ever visited are neatly organized on your home page.

Not to mention, multiple mafia factions are the norm. And it's also very common to find Masons, cultists, etc. It also lets the Host have a tight leash on everything and make sure everything goes perfectly.

Private threads would be great, but mafia is just a small part of the website I come from and some of the higher staff like to keep us on a tight leash, so we don't have any such options. QT's are the perfect alternative. They're really convenient for role madness games as there's so many abilities, players, roles, gambits, etc to keep track of. On our board, 20 player games are considered small and there're usually 2-3 60+ player games each year (average game size is around 25-30 players, and the preferable size is generally ~40). And most mafia teams usually have each member with 2-3 abilties with a Godfather (and maybe Backup) having 4-5. And a lot of games go beyond this. So you can see how chatrooms would be a big inconvenience.

Exampe QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/PrYcNK37zYw2t

Once you cross 1000 posts, you can't view all messages at once, but rarely does a QT cross 1000 posts.

Have you guys tried QuickTopic for the mafia chats. Much more convenient. And it's so much fun reading up later. I've been in QTs where the post count has rivalled that of the game thread. The games on my board can get fucking off the hook on the power scale though, so there's a bucketload of things to discuss.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:Took me a while to find where this game had gone.

Congrats, scum-team. Where's the scum chat?

Also, sig and MP legit "slipped" with assuming mafia kill D1?

Marco

My genuine apologies for your death. I thought I'd sent in a PM jailkeeping you. Entirely my fault. Mea Culpa.

At least you jailed me N1.

Took me a while to find where this game had gone.

Congrats, scum-team. Where's the scum chat?

Also, sig and MP legit "slipped" with assuming mafia kill D1?

Is it against the rules to continue talking even though hammer has been reached?

Soneji wrote:I would feel that it is quite likely that they might be scum. Both have pinged me to some extent already. Golden earlier seemed to be speaking to you in a way that seems as if he knows you're town, not putting enough into thinking that you might be mafia for your defense of Sloonei. I can only remember one post where it was slightly implied.

I've had similar reservations. Though it reminds me of when MM and MP joined us for that game on NF. Pretty much everyone assumed they were scum just because of the difference in playstyle.

@Metalmarsh, what was your intent in switching your vote to DrWilgy in the last 10 minutes when IAWY already led by ~4 votes? The link is broken, so I can't follow your vote. Also, is it normal on The Syndicate for EOD tie lynch scenarios? You all seem to love them? What's the reason there?

Soneji wrote:I will wait for MM to finish what hes doing, then I will bring down the hammer.

What would you think about MM and Golden if Matt flips town?

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Marco wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Marco wrote:From the actual votes, one can make an argument that Sloonei switched from frog to IAWY to distance himself from IAWY for the future. But at that time, during EOD, with minutes to go, people were using the polls to keep track of the votes. I don't think Sloonei would've known his vote would not do anything. Especially, since he has no reason to believe someone else wouldn't vote IAWY suddenly.

But why would a town player do this?

If I know my reads are outdated as I haven't read most of the phase, and that my suspect brings value to the game, I would probably give them the benefit of doubt and engage them after I've caught up.

Hmmm, I suppose it's a difference in approach. Regardless of whether I was caught up, I can't see myself considering the underlined at all.

I'm guessing you would consider it but I'm not explaining what I mean correctly.

Even if he suspects someone, an experienced mafia player will know that he can't always be right. So, let's say you're faced with two viable lynches. One of them is your top suspect and the others is a lesser suspect of yours. Now, let's assume your top suspect is the most active player in the game and has been involved in a lot of interactions (some of which contributed to your reads on others) and the lesser suspect has not really contributed anything to the game.

Now, if you're wrong about your top suspect, you lose a townie who has shown that they can bring value to the game. And I'd argue it's regardless of his alignment. Even if your top suspect is, in fact, scum, there's still value in keeping him alive over the other suspect for the current day. This is because his high level of activity and engagement in the game means he's going to be interacting with most of the players in the game. Thereby giving your more interactions to base your reads upon. Once the new day starts, you can once again start pushing him and if he gets lynched, now you have another phase of potentially juicy interactions to look into.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I'm putting together Day 2 votes right now. Hopefully nobody swoops in for the hammer in the near future, because I'd still like to chat.

In that case, UNVOTE

I'll be around for the next 4-6 hours at least. Though I'll be mobile posting for a large part of it.

Golden wrote:I really want Marco and Polo to play games together.

I'm assuming Polo is a Syndicate regular?

DrWilgy wrote:Nah bruh, U

VOTE MATT

If Sloonei flips town, Wilgy is probably scum. This seems like a very opportunistic vote, especially in light of how "offhand" Wilgy is about the game.

EBWOP:

Marco wrote:I'll have a much better idea once I ISO MetalMarsh. And in light of all but for now, I am reconsidering my stand on MM vs Moonei.

And in light of all the context about Sloonei's meta from you guys (how his actions were very uncharacteristic of his town play), I am reconsidering my stand on MM vs Moonei. I can understand one teammate (in the scenario that one of you guys is trying to save MM) trying to manipulate me, but it seems you guys are all in much agreement about this, so I'm thinking you guys are right about Sloonei and I'm just projecting how I expect people to play onto Sloonei. And if he does flip town, we should have some leads to follow.

VOTE Matt/Sloonei

This is Hammer - 1. The next vote on Sloonei will end the phase.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:The way I see it, there are two levels of bussing. One is via engaging and the other is via voting. Both have there own pros and cons and you will have to do both smartly for the best bus. But in my experience, if you think someone is bussing via vote but not engagement, then it's probably sincere and not a bus. Exceptions are there, obviously, but this is the general pattern.

The great part about bussing is that you can build associations with different townies, creating "camps", so that when one of you dies, townies are implicated that your partner can pounce on.

I'm talking about this because if Sloonei actually bussed IAWY, he should've done much more engagement. And I don't mean Sloonei, specifically, but any scum in his position. As in that's the optimum way to do it. The fact that you guys suspect Sloonei because he hardly had any meaningful interaction with IAWY is a demonstration of this fact.

So my questions is, "Is Sloonei inexperienced enough to commit to such a lackluster bus?"

Yeah, I agree with all of this - it's quite a compelling argument for why sloonei isn't scum.

But, I don't think it's inexperienced to commit a lackluster bus. I think it's the opposite. The moment patterns become so clear as to what a bus should look like, thats when changing it up becomes effective.

My own bus style is this... whatever people currently thinks looks like a bus... don't do it. Change how you bus. For me, there is always value in a bus if it gives you cred for the rest of the game, and you have to play it in the way that gives you the most cred, which is by definition the way which looks least like how you'd expect a bus to look.

See, I don't think that fits. Intentionally committing a weak bus just because people expect you to commit a strong bus is not something I can get behind. If you bus correctly, no one will even know you bussed. Some might entertain the idea but as long as you pulled it off well, they'll chalk it up as tinfoil. When you commit a weak bus, you're going to draw more attention to it, and even if people disregard it (because they expect better from you), it's on everyone's minds now.

Secondly, this relies on meta-gaming. You can only do the unexpected if people have expectations of you. If people don't expect a strong bus from you, committing a weak bus is only going to make them suspect you.

What I described (engagement leading to voting) is the optimal way to bus because if done right, no one will know it's a bus. On the other hand, a weak bus (engagement but no vote or vote without adequate engagement) is going to stick out and people will question you over it, regardless of them expecting it from you or not.

You can't really "change how you bus" because bussing is not a procedure or a set of instructions to follow. It's like saying, "change how you suspect people" or "change how you explain your votes". To change how you bus, you have to change how you play. Because a good bus should look like a natural part of your game. I'm not sure where I was going with this but these are my thoughts on bussing.

Golden wrote:Sloonei is very experienced. He also has way more experience than the average person at this site of this kind of setup (maybe not matrix, but open, role-claiming, town working together etc).

very interesting all up. I can see both sides of this coin.

In the context of Sloonei, if you think he intentionally performed a weak bus because people would expect the opposite, you're basically saying that regardless of how good he busses, we would know it was a bus. Which defeats the purpose of a bus. If he had engaged IAWY better, and not focused on Frog, he could've kept his vote on IAWY and I don't think anyone of us would've even thought about a potential bus there.

Also, you have to keep in mind that a large number of players in this game aren't even familiar with Sloonei, so "doing the unexpected" doesn't necessarily pass as a reason. Especially when you're suspicious of him precisely for actions you consider uncharacteristic of him.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:I will admit, the tactic would be more likely from me if I knew I would be able to fully participate. One reason to think about the extra lynch not being worth it, from sloonei's perspective, might be that he himself wouldn't have time to capitilise on any cred he got and make sure the extra lynch wasn't wasted.

Can you clarify what you mean here. I couldn't quite understand it.

I have no fear of an extra town lynch if I think I can exert significant influence on the outcome of the lynches, when scum. If I can't (eg, because I don't have time to really play and need to sub out), the tactic would become less likely from me.

I'm just trying to apply how I would think, in the shoes of a scum sloonei.

This is correct. But would you do so when it's unnecessary? Being directly responsible for lynching your teammate on Day 1 is the least value you can get out of a bus, especially when said teammate has hardly even engaged people, and when you already have your vote on someone else that you claim is your top suspect.

A good bus works both ways. If your target gets killed, you get brownie points and people in his "camp" are implicated. If you get killed, your target gets brownie points and people in your "camp" are implicated. On Day 1, when your "target-teammate" hasn't even engaged people and there are no "camps" to consider, when you've actually been focusing on someone else entirely and already have your vote on that someone, when that someone and your "target-teammate" are tied to be lynched, there's very little value in suddenly voting for your teammate and contributing to his demise. It would make more sense to let your reservations about your teammate be known, get the townie killed, and then next day you can get to bussing (even using the townie's demise).

Golden wrote:On a completely different note, could you explain to me in very short terms what you feel the case on MM is? Even though I have had suspicion on him in the past, I feel like the current suspicion isn't along any of the same lines as what mine was and I don't follow it.

Some part of it was tone-reading. I remember feeling MM's posts almost felt like he was appealing to others. Like he compartmentalized his responses in order to dissuade emotional reactions from others. It's not necessarily a scum-tell either but usually scum are more concerned about avoiding getting involved in a cock-off when they are one of the leading lynch candidates. Then there's the fact that he seems to lack a certain degree of self-doubt that one expects from the uninformed majority. This especially stood out Day 1 because his reads were so different from most everyone.

Some part of it was because I was reading Day 1 EOD (before Frog became the focus) as MM trying to get him mislynched. Don't get me wrong, I suspected IAWY and MM both, but like I mentioned during EOD, it looked like MM was withdrawing when it looked like he was safe and IAWY was getting lynched. Also, I didn't like his Sloonei push Day 1, like you yourself stated. And while the Frog point served to change your mind, it didn't really do anything for me. I'd known Sloonei was on Frog since early Day 1 (when Frog went after me and Sloonei for apparently defending each other). Sloonei's play just looked like someone who isn't adequately informed about where the game is right now (like how I defended Soneji's vote on Frog when someone called him out because I believed Soneji would not have been suspicious had he been engaging with the game in real-time instead of guzzling it all down in the last 2 hours or so).

I'll have a much better idea once I ISO MetalMarsh. And in light of all but for now, I am reconsidering my stand on MM vs Moonei.

Wow, what happened to the activity? There hasn't been a post on almost 12 hours?

There's some posts I want to respond to. Give me half an hour or so.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:@mm, that makes sense to me. He felt like frog and IAWY were scummy. Frog was his prime candidate but he decided frog had more value than IAWY.

I'm not sure why you don't understand how frog had more value. I've never played with either of them before but just going by post count, activity, and contribution, town!Frog had a lot more value than town!IAWY.

I've never seen sloonei shift a vote on the basis of 'value'.

Besides, frog wasn't demonstrating 'value', he was just demonstrating 'volume', which are two different things. I might understand it if it was someone like Jay, or frankly even if it was you - but anyone who genuinely suspected Frog could see that he had stopped adding value about 12 hours into the game.

You have a narrow minded view of value. Disregarding the actual content of his posts, we all knew he would be one of the most active players in the game. Just by virtue of that you can be sure you'll get more interactions with him alive.

Also, frog had already stated his reason multiple times for not contributing in the latter part of day 1. While I disagree for his reason, he has already told us he would be back to his early game activity by day 2.

OK, sure, but I think you are being fooled by the fact that the concept of keeping someone alive by value works and makes sense in your community, but it is bizarre here. I've literally never seen sloonei do something like that.

I'm just saying - for me, it looked like a massive cred grab that he couldn't lose either way. Why not burn a vanilla teammate who isn't even participating much for a cred grab?

Because then you need to kill an extra townie to win. Usually means that town gets an extra lynch.

I will admit, the tactic would be more likely from me if I knew I would be able to fully participate. One reason to think about the extra lynch not being worth it, from sloonei's perspective, might be that he himself wouldn't have time to capitilise on any cred he got and make sure the extra lynch wasn't wasted.

Can you clarify what you mean here. I couldn't quite understand it.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:However, that's not worth losing 1 out of 4 members and handing town an extra lynch.

I think this is where MP's point about culture comes in. We come from a culture of unchangeable votes and no info-dumping, the first of which means its harder to hide in votes with basic tactics and the second of which lessens the impact of a single lynch. Giving the town an extra lynch and losing a member of the team who, at the time of EoD 1, appeared more or less inactive (IAWY really stepped up in day 2, and don't forget they had no communication on day 1) would seem worth it to me.

Yeah, I'm starting to understand it. I still believe it's not a smart move on a scum's part in this setup but I can understand how Sloonei might think otherwise on account of not being used to the mechanics and rules.

In RYM 87, a game in which I played and I believe sloonei did too (site shut so I can't check), one of the site members outright bussed their teammate in the thread on day 1 and it was enough for him to be considered the most trustworthy in lylo.

I think you are thinking of bussing in terms of value and so am I, so we are definitely on the same page there, I just think we have overall a different perspective on the value of the move.

The way I see it, there are two levels of bussing. One is via engaging and the other is via voting. Both have there own pros and cons and you will have to do both smartly for the best bus. But in my experience, if you think someone is bussing via vote but not engagement, then it's probably sincere and not a bus. Exceptions are there, obviously, but this is the general pattern.

The great part about bussing is that you can build associations with different townies, creating "camps", so that when one of you dies, townies are implicated that your partner can pounce on.

I'm talking about this because if Sloonei actually bussed IAWY, he should've done much more engagement. And I don't mean Sloonei, specifically, but any scum in his position. As in that's the optimum way to do it. The fact that you guys suspect Sloonei because he hardly had any meaningful interaction with IAWY is a demonstration of this fact.

So my questions is, "Is Sloonei inexperienced enough to commit to such a lackluster bus?"

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:What's your response to sig's last post? By pressuring you, I am hoping for VCA fypov to explain your vote switch day 1.

What's VCA?

Sorry, you asked this before and I didn't answer because I thought you figured it out. Stands for Vote Count Analysis. Basically looking at the vote tallies and timelines for info.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:From the actual votes, one can make an argument that Sloonei switched from frog to IAWY to distance himself from IAWY for the future. But at that time, during EOD, with minutes to go, people were using the polls to keep track of the votes. I don't think Sloonei would've known his vote would not do anything. Especially, since he has no reason to believe someone else wouldn't vote IAWY suddenly.

The point is, it doesn't matter if the vote actually leads to the lynch. Either frog flips town or IAWY flips bad. Either way, sloonei's vote switch looks inspired. This is the point. If he has perfect knowledge, he knows he wins both ways.

Yes, you get town cred either way. However, that's not worth losing 1 out of 4 members and handing town an extra lynch.

But you and MP's meta read on Sloonei does make me feel less sure about Sloonei's possible intention. If most of you guys agree it's uncharacteristic of town Sloonei, then I can understand it.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Marco wrote:From the actual votes, one can make an argument that Sloonei switched from frog to IAWY to distance himself from IAWY for the future. But at that time, during EOD, with minutes to go, people were using the polls to keep track of the votes. I don't think Sloonei would've known his vote would not do anything. Especially, since he has no reason to believe someone else wouldn't vote IAWY suddenly.

But why would a town player do this?

If I know my reads are outdated as I haven't read most of the phase, and that my suspect brings value to the game, I would probably give them the benefit of doubt and engage them after I've caught up.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:@mm, that makes sense to me. He felt like frog and IAWY were scummy. Frog was his prime candidate but he decided frog had more value than IAWY.

I'm not sure why you don't understand how frog had more value. I've never played with either of them before but just going by post count, activity, and contribution, town!Frog had a lot more value than town!IAWY.

I've never seen sloonei shift a vote on the basis of 'value'.

Besides, frog wasn't demonstrating 'value', he was just demonstrating 'volume', which are two different things. I might understand it if it was someone like Jay, or frankly even if it was you - but anyone who genuinely suspected Frog could see that he had stopped adding value about 12 hours into the game.

You have a narrow minded view of value. Disregarding the actual content of his posts, we all knew he would be one of the most active players in the game. Just by virtue of that you can be sure you'll get more interactions with him alive.

Also, frog had already stated his reason multiple times for not contributing in the latter part of day 1. While I disagree for his reason, he has already told us he would be back to his early game activity by day 2.

OK, sure, but I think you are being fooled by the fact that the concept of keeping someone alive by value works and makes sense in your community, but it is bizarre here. I've literally never seen sloonei do something like that.

I'm just saying - for me, it looked like a massive cred grab that he couldn't lose either way. Why not burn a vanilla teammate who isn't even participating much for a cred grab?

Because then you need to kill an extra townie to win. Usually means that town gets an extra lynch.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:@golden, I know a bus like that would make one look good. But it seems unnecessary.

Your basically saying that as scum who has his vote on his teammate's counter wagon, you would lynch your own teammate at the last minute for town cred?

I can understand a fresh vote but he had already placed his vote and given his reason.

You are basically town clearing him on it. This is the definition of necessary.

IAWY appeared absent, a good mark.

Yes - this is the kind of cutthroat thing I would absolutely do, and I think sloonei would as well. It's also why I say mechanical statements like Frog's for finding scum are easy to beat.

I'm not really town clearing him. Not until I look at VCA personally. Right now, I'm trying to gain insight into Sloonei's behavior by asking all your opinions.

Golden wrote:Doesn't that vote from sloonei look like perfect knowledge to you? Frog was his top town suspect, but suddenly with little time to give anyone to react he is talking of Frog's value? That makes no sense to me. If someone is your top scum suspect, you don't keep them around because they might 'add value' if you are wrong. If he had expressed an equal scum read on each of them, I can understand picking for value. But he hadn't. IAWY was a 'fresh vote' for sloonei in the sense that I have no recollection of him ever looking in that direction (I'd need to check that up)... I know thats not what you meant fresh vote to mean.

I just really don't buy that vote. I didn't from the start. Town sloonei might jump around, but I've not seen him suddenly get cold feet on a wagon and shift to one he wasn't talking about last second.

If I hadn't read the latter 3/4th of a phase, I would definitely give more weight to statistics and other people's opinions than my own reads. Basically, yeah, I can definitely imagine saving my top suspect if I feel like my read may be outdated and that it's better for me to catch up and focus on him again on Day 2, especially if I think the suspect brings value to the game, regardless of his alignment.

That said, your meta read on Sloonei is noted.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:@mm, that makes sense to me. He felt like frog and IAWY were scummy. Frog was his prime candidate but he decided frog had more value than IAWY.

I'm not sure why you don't understand how frog had more value. I've never played with either of them before but just going by post count, activity, and contribution, town!Frog had a lot more value than town!IAWY.

I've never seen sloonei shift a vote on the basis of 'value'.

Besides, frog wasn't demonstrating 'value', he was just demonstrating 'volume', which are two different things. I might understand it if it was someone like Jay, or frankly even if it was you - but anyone who genuinely suspected Frog could see that he had stopped adding value about 12 hours into the game.

You have a narrow minded view of value. Disregarding the actual content of his posts, we all knew he would be one of the most active players in the game. Just by virtue of that you can be sure you'll get more interactions with him alive.

Also, frog had already stated his reason multiple times for not contributing in the latter part of day 1. While I disagree for his reason, he has already told us he would be back to his early game activity by day 2.

@golden, I know a bus like that would make one look good. But it seems unnecessary.

Your basically saying that as scum who has his vote on his teammate's counter wagon, you would lynch your own teammate at the last minute for town cred?

I can understand a fresh vote but he had already placed his vote and given his reason.

From the actual votes, one can make an argument that Sloonei switched from frog to IAWY to distance himself from IAWY for the future. But at that time, during EOD, with minutes to go, people were using the polls to keep track of the votes. I don't think Sloonei would've known his vote would not do anything. Especially, since he has no reason to believe someone else wouldn't vote IAWY suddenly.

@mm, that makes sense to me. He felt like frog and IAWY were scummy. Frog was his prime candidate but he decided frog had more value than IAWY.

I'm not sure why you don't understand how frog had more value. I've never played with either of them before but just going by post count, activity, and contribution, town!Frog had a lot more value than town!IAWY.

@zebra, my bad.

What's your response to sig's last post? By pressuring you, I am hoping for VCA fypov to explain your vote switch day 1.

I'm definitely good with pushing MM.

VOTE METALMARSH89

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:@MM, He is your top suspect knowing that he switched off Frog to IAWY Day 1 lynch?

He is one of my top suspects, and that is without looking back over previous events with the knowledge that IAWY is scum.

I do know he made that vote switch, but I don't remember there being any context behind it. I'll look into it.

His reason for changing the vote was that Frog had value to the game alive (he scum-read Frog but he admitted he hadn't read anything past the first dozen pages). Regardless, why would scum vote for their own partner in such a scenario?

@MM, He is your top suspect knowing that he switched off Frog to IAWY Day 1 lynch?

Actually, I won't be able to look into the vote history for at least another 12 hours. If someone else is interested, please go ahead.

Soneji wrote:It is something important to note though in general. If mafia knew that votes wouldn't be counted if not in-thread, they could have abused that to throw off civilians ability to know the correct vote count, as well as make it look like they voted someone when they actually didn't.

While true, I do believe that would be against the spirit of the rules, and I'd like to think no-one on this player list would do something like that.

Soneji wrote:I am not here in a way that I can interact much. I would say that its a fair point that as IAWY flipped scum, it wouldn't make sense for a mafia Sloonei to switch from Frog to his teammate. There was a lot of vote switching near the end though, some of which were not counted as they weren't made in-thread as well.

If it wasn't recorded in the thread, it won't count any way. Also, I don't think the haphazard vote switching can account for Scum!Sloonei taking vote off his claimed scum-read and putting it on his own teammate when said teammate was extremely likely to be lynched.

Soneji, since you're here, I want to get some live 1-1 about the Day 1 Vote. Gonna try and get a timeline vote count done, but what do you think about the Sloonei (Matt) points I stated till now?

Marco wrote:Okay, first up, why are you voting Matt?

Sloonei dropped his vote off of Frog which resulted in Frog and IAWY tied at Day 1 end. Bussing is one thing but this makes absolutely no sense. He had been stating Frog as his scum-read throughout. Why jump off and jeopardise your own teammate (IAWY)?

In fact Sloonei actually switched from Frog to IAWY. That said, when Sloonei jumped off Frog to IAWY, Frog was leading (according to the vote numbers on the Poll).

Is there any way to Ctrl + F votes? On my home board, we vote inside [ ], like [VOTE: , so it's easy to Ctrl + F "[VOTE ". Any way to do the same with the vote format we're using?] aubergine

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Now we're looking at the only possible scenarios of F, 1, and 4.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Based on last night's kill, here are the possible setups.

Spoiler: show

Set A

• 1x Town Jailkeeper
  1x 1-Shot Bulletproof Town
  1x Town Innocent Child
  10x Vanilla Town
  1x Mafia Roleblocker
  1x Mafia 1-Shot Vigilante
  2x Vanilla Mafia Goon

Set C

• 1x Doctor
  1x Town Tracker
  1x Town Vigilante
  10x Vanilla Town
  1x Mafia Role Cop
  1x Mafia Jailkeeper
  2x Vanilla Mafia Goon

Set D

• 2x Town Masons
  1x Town Bodyguard
  1x Town Tracker
  9x Vanilla Town
  1x 1-Shot Mafia Vigilante
  1x Mafia Ninja
  2x Vanilla Mafia Goon

Set E

• 1x 2-Shot Town Jailkeeper
  1x Town Cop w/ Night 0 town check
  11x Vanilla Town
  1x 1-Shot Mafia Vigilante
  1x Mafia Roleblocker
  2x Vanilla Mafia Goon

Set F

• 1x Town Even Night Vigilante
  1x Town Jailkeeper
  11x Vanilla Town
  1x Mafia Jack-of-all-Trades
  3x Vanilla Mafia Goon

Set 1

• 1x Town Even Night Vigilante
  1x Town Jailkeeper
  11x Vanilla Town
  1x 1-Shot Mafia Vigilante
  1x Mafia Role Cop
  2x Vanilla Mafia Goon

Set 3

• 1x 1-Shot Bulletproof Town
  2x Town Masons
  1x Town Tracker
  9x Vanilla Town
  1x Mafia Jack-of-all-Trades
  3x Vanilla Mafia Goon

Set 4

• 1x Town Vigilante
  1x Town Bodyguard
  1x 2-Shot Town Jailkeeper
  10x Vanilla Town
  1x 1-Shot Mafia Vigilante
  1x 1-Shot Mafia Bulletproof
  2x Vanilla Mafia Goon

Set 5

• 1x Town Cop w/ night 0 check
  1x Town Jailkeeper
  11x Vanilla Town
  1x 1-Shot Mafia Vigilante
  1x Mafia Jailkeeper
  2x Vanilla Mafia Goon

I realize this doesn't narrow it down a ton, but we can rule out Scenarios B, 2, and 6 because none of those contain a vig.

You missed C. The possible setups now are C, F, 1, 4.

C, F, 1, 4,

C: Mafia Role Cop + Mafia Jailkeeper vs Town Doctor + Town Tracker + Town Vig
F: Mafia JOAT vs Town Even Night Vigi + Town Jailkeeper
1: Mafia Role Cop + 1-Shot Mafia Vig vs Town Jailkeeper + Town Even Night Vig
4: 1-shot Mafia Vig + 1-shot Mafia BP vs Town Vig + Town BG + 2-shot Town Jailkeeper

This is the post, by the way. If someone else wants to go a couple pages back and look through the votes themselves.

And I have to bring this up.

Marco wrote:If IAWY flips scum, wouldn't look good for Golden.

I'm forgetting what exactly led me to say that, it was something to do with the exact vote switch pattern. I'll try to go back and create a vote timeline to see if there was actually some merit in what I said.

Okay, first up, why are you voting Matt?

Sloonei dropped his vote off of Frog which resulted in Frog and IAWY tied at Day 1 end. Bussing is one thing but this makes absolutely no sense. He had been stating Frog as his scum-read throughout. Why jump off and jeopardise your own teammate (IAWY)?

Inawordyes wrote:

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:Regardless, why not just answer the question? You might convince me to vote for him.

I mean, I think your point that we don't get a lot from Wilgy if he flips town is completely fair and true. I can't think of anything. I just don't know that we get a lot from IAWY flipping town either.

I just don't know that we will get much from ANY town flips until we have at least one scum flip.

I wasn't really trying to convince you to vote Wilgy - I'm very comfortable knowing you are on the IAWY train.

First, IAWY gives more info just going by numbers. Then you have the larger number of people with reads on IAWY. Then you have the tie from yesterday to look at. And the semi CFD. Is it just me who thinks IAWY unquestionably has more info attached to him?

Though you're right about town flips not giving us much, that doesn't mean we get no info from them.

The problem with that line of thinking is that it assumes I'm going to flip baddie. I'm not, because I'm not a baddie, so lynching me today does nothing but let the real baddies get a laugh in at how easy it was to scapegoat me. Until we have a baddie lynch, you get no info from my kynch that's meaningful, which means if the Vig is a goodie one and hey shoot wring again, you have to go through an entire other day before you have a chance at getting any meaningful info, and nobody seems to be seriously looking into other people right now.

Addendum: Not in the past hour or so, I see random CFD on Zexy and vague Wilgy talk, nothing substantial or meaningful.

If you read my post, it's specifically about if you flip villager, not scum.

Secondly, your logic applies to everyone. Nothing to dissuade me from lynching you.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Inawordyes wrote:

sig wrote:oh and one more point agaisnt IWAY he voted for Wilgy and I didn't like that vote or the reasoning for it. I also don't like how Matt jumped from the MM wagon onto that. I could see a MAtt/MM team.

Current mafia team thoughts.
Ika
MM
Matt
??? Maybe IWAY
IF IWAY is mafia
IWAY
MM/Matt
Ika
Zebra/matt

I normally wouldn't do this, but with no night posting I want to get my thoughts out in case I die. Also if we have a jailkeeper/doctor pleaseeeee protect me.

linki: Fine. But, I want him strung up!

I was getting info on someone I was null reading haha. I don't see why it's a strike against me unless you either didn't read or you're deliberately tunneling me to try and justify your suspicion once a I flip town.

I didn't like Wilgy's response because he said absolutely nothing of value and disappeared again, but I'm still in info-finding mode because I know I'm dying today regardless at this point, so let's move on to someone else in the null list since it won't make much of a difference to self-pres when I'm still getting lynched.

VOTE SIG

Heyo Sig! I don't like that you have a problem with my Wilgy vote. I also don't like that if my memory serves correctly, you have generally been sheeping other people's reads instead of your own content and just kinda going with the flow instead of actively scum hunting.

Can you give me anything that would prove otherwise? What are your current reads?

You're going to die in less than 30 minutes. Why is this your post at this time? Where is your sense of urgency? Why aren't you fighting for your life and trying to gather people's trust/votes?

This. You should be more resistant, regardless of your assignment.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:Regardless, why not just answer the question? You might convince me to vote for him.

I mean, I think your point that we don't get a lot from Wilgy if he flips town is completely fair and true. I can't think of anything. I just don't know that we get a lot from IAWY flipping town either.

I just don't know that we will get much from ANY town flips until we have at least one scum flip.

I wasn't really trying to convince you to vote Wilgy - I'm very comfortable knowing you are on the IAWY train.

First, IAWY gives more info just going by numbers. Then you have the larger number of people with reads on IAWY. Then you have the tie from yesterday to look at. And the semi CFD. Is it just me who thinks IAWY unquestionably has more info attached to him?

Though you're right about town flips not giving us much, that doesn't mean we get no info from them.

I mean just from an isolated stand, IAWY has more info attached to him than Wilgy going by just their engagement in the game. Then you have others constantly telling us he's very random.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:If Wilgy is lynched and flips town, what leads are we looking at? I feel like his flip will give us the least information.

You seem focussed very much on the information we get 'if someone flips town'.

Yesterday, it was about it being three vs two.

This time, if its a two way battle between IAWY and Wilgy and the loser flips town, why would we get less information from Wilgy's townflip than IAWY's townflip?

FMPOV, Wilgy doesn't have much info attached to him. He has hardly spoken and most people keep taking about his "random" nature. We have a limited number of lynches. I'd rather use them to gain the most information.

Regardless, why not just answer the question? You might convince me to vote for him.

If Wilgy is lynched and flips town, what leads are we looking at? I feel like his flip will give us the least information.

Wow, the MM wagon just disappeared.

VOTE INAWORDYES

I want to test my initial suspicions from day 1. It'll be hard to convince me to vote for anyone but MM OR IAWY.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:@MP, I'm not planning on voting golden this phase, but I do want your thoughts on that golden post. You can do so next phase as per your convenience.

Also, how long before phase ends. At this point, I'm back to my lynch candidates of yesterday, IAWY and MM.

Feelings on Wilgy generally?

He's been at the bottom of my rainbow list since day 1. But his semi apathy towards this game and zebra's TR on him make me feel better about him. That said, if I was a Vigilante, I would probably kill him. I'm just not inclined to use up a Lynch on him until some post scum-flip associations become clear.