The Syndicate

@Scotty: Godamn it, that's one hell of a tinfoil.

I revived you mostly because I didn't want to bring back someone who would be killed by mafia the following night. You were completely unconfirmed, even being a possible candidate for Inmate, so you'd stay alive for a while. Also I knew you were a tracker. It seemed perfect.

Too bad I blew that extra night later by mislynching like 5 times.

@G-Man: I wanted mafia to waste kills on me. It was actually one of the reasons I picked the civs on day 0. It felt like a very easy way to contribute.

But I had to blew it by revealing my role too soon. I thought they had tried to kill me on N5 so my role had already done its job.

@Rico

Damn it. I actually did a wikipedia binge on Nauru because I got curious about it. Such a funny coincidence if it were true lol

Great game Epi. Thanks for hosting! I surely had a blast.

I think it's the first time I was ever in a conventional lylo before. Loved it.

Loved my role too.

I love how consistent Ozymandias role was with the comic. He killed the Comedian, made a very elaborate ploy to make Manhattan go away, and framed Rorsrach to make him go to jail. How did I not stop to think of that?

Actually, the Night 9 kill. The one that failed yesterday. Or it didn't get sent at all?

Thanks Epi. And what about the Night 8 kill?

@Rico

N1: Nobody (only Sloonei was dead)
N2: Scotty
N3: Revived Scotty (had to either revive or check roles).
N4: Long Con
N5: llama
N6: ninja
N7: juliets
N8: Nobody.
N9: G-Man

Also just noticed DH actually spotted Moloch in the D2 poll.

Things I still want to know.

- Who the hell did mafia try to kill on those nights where the kills failed? Danmit.
- Did G-Man actually have info on Eloh? Was the bet a dirty one? lol

I thought you were Baernard for a while because, for a very long time, G-Man mentioned every player except you.

Also lol at G-Man having himself as his main suspect the whole game.

Also I used the @Rico because I felt like I was relying to what you had just said.. Er... whatever, my mistake.

@Rico

I meant "you" in the pulral sense, as of "you civs". This language you people like too use can be kind of impractical sometimes.

DharmaHelper wrote:Did I win?

No. Everybody died except Derf.

Seriously, it's so much easier to have a bad read on those people who say "hey guys just dropping by to say I didn't read the thread but I'm voting X because I have a hunch see ya tomorrow kthxbye"

@Rico

I knew the identity of every dead player from a certain point onwards (day 5 I think). I spent a lot of the game lol'ing about how you were so worried about Rorsrarch.

Actually, it should be "I dread supatown players disguised as mafia". Since I'm the one who fears them. Right?

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:My suspicion on MP was one of the worst things I did in this game too.

Truth is, I've heard a few times about how MP tends to get quite angry when he is lynched as a bad. I assumed spotting mafia MP and lynching him would be very exciting, and also very challenging. When I started suspecting him, I let the thrill of the hunt get the best of me and tunneled hard. I also believe bad MP would emulate all the rainbow lists and the endless questions, so I was prepared to see all that as an elaborate play.

Still want to play against baddie MP, btw.

Yeah, you and G-Man were tinfoiling me hard, but I suppose you had reason to -- I didn't exactly play a great game.

Your suspicion of me still wasn't as bad as mine of Elo. I didn't even consider a genuine possibility for why G-Man was so sure.

I'm nonetheless flattered that you think my baddie game is great. It is. But mainly when compared to my civilian game (since my civilian game really sucks). :P

Dude, I hate trying to read uber-talkative players like you. You guys control the game and make it hard for me to call you mafia.

I spent the entirety of economics having a tinfoil that JJJ was mafia because I was just atraid of how he could be hiding it. I might have voted him on lylo if I were alive.

I also spent most of that champions game turnip player suspecting Banks.

Supatown players actually disguised as mafia dread me.

My suspicion on MP was one of the worst things I did in this game too.

Truth is, I've heard a few times about how MP tends to get quite angry when he is lynched as a bad. I assumed spotting mafia MP and lynching him would be very exciting, and also very challenging. When I started suspecting him, I let the thrill of the hunt get the best of me and tunneled hard. I also believe bad MP would emulate all the rainbow lists and the endless questions, so I was prepared to see all that as an elaborate play.

Still want to play against baddie MP, btw.

Ricochet wrote:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Still want to know why each one of the three night kills failed, though. The first one was aimed at Rico. What about the other two?

@MP: So you two never tracked Eloh? LOL

How would they track Elo and make a full wolf case on her afterwards?

Tracker uses his ability on Eloh.

Epi PMs him back and says "Eloh used an ability on X"

Night ends, X was killed.

Therefore, Eloh is the one who killed X, barring an incredible coincidence.

Still want to know why each one of the three night kills failed, though. The first one was aimed at Rico. What about the other two?

@MP: So you two never tracked Eloh? LOL

@Rico: Oh, I understood "target you with an ability".

Don't worry, this is mafia. I'm not mad at you. Well, just a little. :P

Scotty was one of the trackers (the other was MP). He tracked someone on Night 4. Then he went full tunnel on Eloh at the start of Day 5 and voted her early. I was actually asking him those questions about Elo being Moloch or BF because I didn't think Scotty would be able to track Moloch, but I didn't think Eloh could be BF. In the end, I just said "fuck it" and followed Scotty's vote.

Actually, both Scotty and MP voted very earlier, and later Scotty implied MP might have thought Eloh was BF because he tracked Eloh and got a positive result, when actually she targeted someone else. Now in hindsight, that's probably what happened to him too. So Eloh was lynched by the two trackers, and the guy who knew who one of the trackers was, all following a misinterpreted piece of info.

@Epi: I'll remember that. Again, sorry if I might have made you mad at some point because of it.

Epignosis wrote:I am pleased that everyone who hinted lost.

I warn people not to do that shit. People do it anyway. And I don't have to lift a finger against them.

You're so evil.

Sorry Epi, but I did ask you permission before I started hinting. I figured out info dumping would be fine as long as I only implied it. Well, karma is a bitch.

Ricochet wrote:I deeply apologize to MM and DDL for being forced to deliberately target them for my last two lynches. Win con stuff. No hard feelings, I hope.

linki: G-Man was the first civ to target Russ.

Wait, what? You never targeted me with a puzzle.

Facts:

- I could have chosen to side with Moloch on Day 0, but I thought that's be too crazy and too hard since I didn't know shit about the guy. I sided with the civs. Damn it.
- I actually suspected Rico for a while because it seemed to me it was being WAY too hard to make him understand what I was claiming. I should have pursued that further. Or maybe not, no idea how I could have pursued that.
- Actually, I shouldn't have claimed. That was a hge mistake from my part. I suppose Rico probably figured out I was Manhattan once I suggested I had voted Eloh because Scotty had done it too? Either way, I also tried to hint at that point. Anyway, a fact none of you know is that I was player the Inmates didn't have to kill or lynch to win the game (the only one?). So I figured out nobody else would have to either. God how I was wrong. Never forget about selective serial killers again, DDL.
- Great game Rico and Russ. You fucking earned.
- Sorry civs for my shit-tier baddie-hunting. I have to improve that.
- I still take pride in reviving Scotty, though. I think that was a great move, knowing his role, and giving civs an extra player.
- Why did the three kills fail? Was any of them directed at me?
- lol at Russ being able to recruit someone. Did he ever managed to do that, or was he just unlucky?
- Told you Moloch would have a shitload of abilities.

I was at uni using the internet there because the internet here at home is terrible. Once the poll deadline close I went home so I could eat. i'm hungry as fuck and was waiting till the phase to end to have dinner.

But then my mom called and wanted to know EVERYTHING about my first semester day. Well not that there weren't interesting news.

Gratz Rico and Russ. I was right about Russ, but can't believe Rico was working against me the whole time. Thoughts in the next post.

Either way I lost the game. Not that I feel like I deserved it, though.

Still gonna root for the civs.

Oh never mind. "Die" is not the right word, is it?

inb4 I die and the game continues.

All four still acting like they're not Moloch. Awesome.

This flip is gonna be legendary.

If Russ was Moloch I'm gonna hit my head on the desk.

Shit.

Good game Moloch. You earned it.

Rico, kill me now or randomize it. Your choice.

If you kill me you lose the game, though. No pressure.

I'm not claiming anything. I THINK the kill failed because of reasons I've already implied. It could be something else. But I spent the entire game waiting for a kill to fail, and I think that was probably the time.

Gonna go with Russ. Not changing my mind at this point. YOLO.

Probably gonna vote with my gut feeling here. I've tried to apply logic to my votes the entire game and most of the time they turned out to be misguided WIFOM, and now it is probably even more WIFOM. At this point, whoever Moloch is, he did not make any obvious slips, specially since he didn't have partners to protect. I'll vote for whoever I feel the best about voting.

Ok, Made's style feels weird, like he is focusing on small things. A lot of talk about game mechanics, but that is understandable coming from someone who had to absorb a lot of info in that in little time. Somewhat similar to LoRab, which actually makes me not want to lynch him much. Seems to have shown a slight improvement in how he played from when he joined to now, posting more theories and reads. Tunneled on MM harder than anyone else, not sure is that's too risky to be a civ or intentional bad play.

Overall, I don't see enough reason to lynch him. Still learning Russ.

Not a switch yet. I'm doing an ISO on him, which I hadn't done before, and seeing what I can conclude. Overall, I don't feel really good about the votes, but still don't feel good about voting him.

Ricochet wrote:Since it's now less than 30 minutes to the end of the world, let's unwind for 30 seconds with the irony that Russ is super paranoid about profiling the LMS after hosting the only game in Syndicate history (so far) in which the LMS crushed it. :P

What game?

Looking at Made's vote record on a vacuum, it doesn't say a lot of good about him. First vote he threw on MM, who everyone else was ignoring, justifying it as "what Bass would do". That may be because he didn't have time to make a better vote, but he didn't say it. Next day he is the first person to vote Cookie, which could be risky in a sense but at this point Cookie was pretty much doomed, so maybe not so risky. Last vote he voted MM with some decent explanation... but I dunno, there weren't any baddies left, so it wouldn't be really risky.

Earlier in the game I'd press him more, but the lack of polls for him to vote damps any suspicion on him. So a vote on him would be a very uninformed one, but overall his vote record says more bad than civ for me, mainly because of the first vote.

It's all a balance between what Moloch can do, and what he has to do. If he has powerful abilities, then he needs to have a difficult wincon. And vice-versa. That's why it's hard to predict, since we know neither his wincon nor his abilities. The host could give him any arbitrary limitations in order to balance a powerful ability or an easy wincon.

Ricochet wrote:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:

Ricochet wrote:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:
As for the lylo thing, think about this: we have 4 players left. We lynch one, he flips civ. Moloch kills someone. Now there are 2 players left. Assuming nobody is silenced, they vote for each other. The host has to flip a coin to decide the winner.

I can't actually claim to know the intricacies (sp?) of lylo scenarios (I think I first heard and witnessed it on the Champions game Turnip played, I had to bother MP with questions about what it all means), but I believe that situation after a failed lylo is that civs will not manage to overcome/defeat the baddie in any way, so it counts as their loss. In this case, if 2 players end up, unsilenced, on D11, one being Moloch and one being the last civ, the civ can't overwhelm or defeat Moloch by simply way of vote, so he'd be considered the default loser.

But again, I'm not actually sure about it at all, I merely expected lylo rules to apply today. Your version sounds intriguing.

As a matter of fact, Guess Who almost ended up having my version, with a randomized vote. Eventually Eloh changed her mind and decided to do it the way you are describing. I think it varies. In my site, a tie is always randomized. I agree your way is more fair, though, although bad for us.

I don't know how Epi would do it, though. I just assumed he could do the coinflip and mentioned how I don't like that.

I remember Epig once saying that, in theory, an even-numbered lylo is worse for the civs to end up in than an odd-numbered lylo - not sure if I can find it, but it sounded like he thinks in terms of lylos deciding it strictly.

It gets better when players are allowed to vote "no lynch". So they can decide not to lynch someone in the hase, only in the next one. In that case, it's not a lylo anymore, it's called "mylo" (myslinch and lose). Because you don't have to lynch a bad, but you can't afford to lynch a civ either.

Of course, allowing players to vote "no lynch" can cause other balance problemas depending on the setup

I'll respond either way.

I think there are more possibilities. Moloch did not kill but did something else, such as a vote manipulation. Or maybe he choose not to kill because his wincon demands him to delay the game longer. Or maybe he only has a one-shot kill, like the Comedian, and had to use different abilities in the night.

Ricochet wrote:Hmmmmm now that is a claim I feel I'm finally starting to understand. Unfortunately I'm not sure it excludes Moloch from that picture, even if you say you would never claim him.

No, it doesn't. I could be Moloch and be lieing everything, or be intentionally revealing it as part of some crazy gambit to fulfill my wincon.

But in that case, what I claim or don't claim doesn't really matter. It's all deception. It only matters if I'm a civ. So what I mean is that you should interpret it as if I tried to claim something other than Moloch.

Ricochet wrote:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:
As for the lylo thing, think about this: we have 4 players left. We lynch one, he flips civ. Moloch kills someone. Now there are 2 players left. Assuming nobody is silenced, they vote for each other. The host has to flip a coin to decide the winner.

I can't actually claim to know the intricacies (sp?) of lylo scenarios (I think I first heard and witnessed it on the Champions game Turnip played, I had to bother MP with questions about what it all means), but I believe that situation after a failed lylo is that civs will not manage to overcome/defeat the baddie in any way, so it counts as their loss. In this case, if 2 players end up, unsilenced, on D11, one being Moloch and one being the last civ, the civ can't overwhelm or defeat Moloch by simply way of vote, so he'd be considered the default loser.

But again, I'm not actually sure about it at all, I merely expected lylo rules to apply today. Your version sounds intriguing.

As a matter of fact, Guess Who almost ended up having my version, with a randomized vote. Eventually Eloh changed her mind and decided to do it the way you are describing. I think it varies. In my site, a tie is always randomized. I agree your way is more fair, though, although bad for us.

I don't know how Epi would do it, though. I just assumed he could do the coinflip and mentioned how I don't like that.

Russtifinko wrote:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Normally I'd say "sorry LoRab, this was a stupid mistake", but I feel like I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

I REALLY need a break from mafia.

Not much I can say other than the fact it was legit. I've been feeling pretty ashamed for my consecutive failures in lynching.

And yes, I really need a break from mafia. After this game don't expect me to see here again for a few months.

This could be fear that saying sorry to too many civ lynches in a row would get suspicious. To Paranoid Russti it reads forced.

Russtifinko wrote:And where at you at right now in terms of suspicions?

I honestly don't suspect any of the three. Whoever of you is mafia played a very good game.

Of course I have to choose one, though.

I had some tinfoils and weird feelings about Rico all game, but overall I think he's playng a terrific civ game. Plus he had some tunneling and stubborn ways of playing that seemed natural, and that a mafia player might avoid making, such as his long tunneling on Elo, or the accusations he made over a bunch of random things I said. Questioning something as a baddie can be risky, because the person you're questioning might call you out for trying to manipulate what they said. And I've seen Rico doing a lot of playe that I could call Risky.

Don't really feel like voting Made. Both him and Bass had pretty clean civ games, specially Bass. If they win, it's a win we can't do anything about, imo. The feeling I have about him is good, although not very developed, and I haven't seen anything bad about him or Bass. I think a vote on him would be too blind unless we can find a good reason.

You are the one I'd vote for right now. I have a civ read on you, but the weakest of the three. Compared to Rico, I could see you as a player who has been careful through all game, trying to seem contributive but without taking big risks. You have mostly stayed out of people's radars for most of the game, save a few mild suspicions. Of course, a lot of that is probably related to your playstyle, even if you are a bad. But overall, I don't see many signs of a player who takes risks and plays the game to the fullest, and you give me a feeling of blending in sometimes. Yet, if I vote for you, it will still be a vote for someone who in my opinion looks more civ than otherwise.

This is difficult as fuck.

I was going to say "either it's with the intent of claiming something else, or a lie/gambit", but I accidentally deleted part of it. Also sorry for the broken quote.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Seeing Ricochet defend himself against G-Man's post, I realize I should probably do the same.

G-Man wrote:Why Dragon Might Be The One To Lynch:

4- He's kept himself just suspicious enough to merit the Inmates keeping him around for a non-Inmate lynch. He benefited from his own misguided hunting because the Inmates never felt threatened by him.

4- This is wrong, even though I can't prove it. If I was seen by the inmates as not a threat, it's because my baddie hunting in this game was unsuccessful, and that wasn't intentional from my part. Besides, considering there were two nights where the baddies failed to kill for some reason, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had the intent to kill me in those nights and failed for some reason.

This is DDL's response to a case from G-Man that I didn't pay much attention to at the time. The post is edited for length, and to me the rest of the points don't add much in our current situation, but DDL's response to Point 4 interested me. He seems to imply that he can't be NKed, and that the baddies might have tried to NK him. I can only think of 3 roles that might have some type of NK protection that isn't used on a specific Night, and all 3 have secrets: Ozymandias, Manhattan, and Moloch. He also says "for some reason" twice, which fits the Llama Adverb(ial Clause) Theorem. It's goofy, but it did get us our first baddie in this game.

I'm leaning toward a DDL vote at the moment, but would like to hear from him before voting.[/quote]

I can't directly claim anything here. But one thing you can be absolutely sure is that I wouldn't claim Moloch. So whatever I hinted about my role, either it's with the intent of claiming something else. The possibility of Moloch having certain abilities doesn't weight much regarding my claim, but other characters you might think of do.

And of course, this is WIFOM, but if I were Moloch Im not sure I'd want to hint my real abilities in the thread. I'd want to keep it in the dark.

Finally, I made those claims about mafia being desperate to kill me, because I had a tinfoil theory that Ricochet was Big Figure because he was the only person who voted me after the first night the kill failed. Revealing my vote was only secondary, since I wouldn't be able to prove it anyway. But I had a suspicion I had to purse. Upon doing an ISO on Rico, I realized his suspicion of me was a lot less forced than I had initially assumed. Plus, since the following kill failed, and then Big Figure was revealed not to be Rico, the tinfoil proved to be wrong.

Ricochet wrote:That's Moloch's role image from the front page. What implication of an action from Moloch did you get from it?

I don't get the part about randomized endgames. What are the scenarios, now that we are an even number? Doesn't lylo apply anymore? Derf silencing implies another night and Day.

Does the last part mean you can't return until Night 10 or what?

Well may be just me, but the picture looks omonous. And usually where I come from tnd of phase write-ups tend to show images of a role who did something in the night, so I got the impression Moloch did something.

As for the lylo thing, think about this: we have 4 players left. We lynch one, he flips civ. Moloch kills someone. Now there are 2 players left. Assuming nobody is silenced, they vote for each other. The host has to flip a coin to decide the winner.

Ricochet wrote:I'm here as well.

That's unfortunate, DDL, but good luck with the classes. Unless the Host would be willing to extend the Day, I'm not sure at the moment how to deal with this. If DDL really doesn't return, the votes will be down to the three of us.

I worked on this in the afternoon and finished it when I got back. It's the best idea of a re-read I have for this endgame, considering all the talk we're having about how one could be looking good, but instead be doing what a solo indy would do to survive till endgame. Everything about it is an interpretation of the player's read (how he could look genuine or blendy in what he did), the point being to figure out perhaps who looks the shadiest. The issues of defending mafia or even analyzing the nightkills choices until Night 8 seem to bear no relevancy, since Moloch was a dormant killer until then, unaware of the mafia team's identity and such, so I didn't include them.

Great work. Not sure if I'll read everything since it only has 2/3 of the players I have to analyse, plus there is a lot of information for little time. But thanks either way.

I'm back.

Catching up.

Popping up to say that yes, I'll be back before the day phase is over. I was meaning to say "night" in real life.

No time for anything else, I have classes in a few minutes.

Cya later.

Ricochet wrote:What don't you like? The no death? If so, how can you find that disagreeable?

I'll quote what I posted about my coded message throughout the game

Epi's post implies Moloch did something, and I don't like what that might be.

Plus we are back to an even number of player, and I hate randomized endgames.

Then again, if we are lucky, Derf might win the game by silencing Moloch in the last phase. At least that's a civ win.

Thanks for talking about the messages. I was looking to see if I could figure out Ozy's role by knowing who got messages from him.

Anyway, going to college now. See you at night guys.

I'm gonna be busy tomorrow for the entire day. I intend to be online about 2 hours before the phase is over, to catch-up, answer questions and vote. So please don't mind my absence. I don't wanna miss the last day and will try to be online as soon as possible, though. I might be able to come online now and then during the day, but don't count on it.

Thanks for understanding.

What?

I don't like this. At all.

Guys,I remember a couple people got coded messages from Ozy in this game? Were any of you among them?

Sure. My point is, it still narrows down your possible roles. Just like you say my post narrows down mine. But in the end, neither of us are more or less likely to be Moloch because of that.