The Syndicate

G-Man, I think the most likely players to miss that post are S~V~S and Daisy.

I'm also not sure Quin kills Polo after he'd been giving me a little crap for defending Polo.

G-Man, whaddya think of Scotty's denial of your indy peek?

The reason I posed that question for rabbit is that I do think there's a difference.

In a no infodump setup, it is still important to find investigative roles, but not necessarily as important to dispose of them immediately. Baddies have more space to arrange their priorities.

In a pro-infodump setup, an investigative role (especially a cop) almost always must die immediately. That single role can dismantle an entire team, even solve the game outright. Keeping it alive for even one extra night can be suicidal.

I'm not sure everyone here is familiar with that difference and the implications thereof.

rabbit8 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Any of them. I mean no offense to those players; I just mean they're newer to this kind of game and may not be as accustomed to cop hunting and the importance of removing that role.

I understand your doubt about Epi. It's holding me back from calling him obviously bad. I don't like a lot about his post history (as he doesn't like a lot about mine), but he is right that the Polo kill is hard to attribute to him. It should be hard to attribute to me too.

I don't think any of those players are new to finding role hints..... If you think I missed it, well then, Okay.

Are you accustomed to it being imperative to remove an alignment checker at the first sign?

I don't think Wilgy missed it.

Any of them. I mean no offense to those players; I just mean they're newer to this kind of game and may not be as accustomed to cop hunting and the importance of removing that role.

I understand your doubt about Epi. It's holding me back from calling him obviously bad. I don't like a lot about his post history (as he doesn't like a lot about mine), but he is right that the Polo kill is hard to attribute to him. It should be hard to attribute to me too.

G-Man wrote:Because unless there are multiple roles that can investigate at night, you couldn't have had a peek last night.

2.06

I literally facepalmed when this post happened. I thought you were overreacting to my fake red peek ruse and exposing yourself earlier than ever necessary.

You're a corpse right now if I'm bad. I don't leave a cop alive in this setup, it's suicidal.

If I'm bad, you never make it out of Night 2 alive G-Man.

I'd like to formally apologize for reaching 300 posts before anyone else reaches 100.

S~V~S and rabbit as team mates also presents an interesting dynamic. Rabbit went right after her as soon as she showed up on Day 0/1.

At this point, I struggle to see a scenario in which S~V~S is town.

I don't think Epignosis and rabbit are team mates. So solving the game would seem to be a matter of picking one of those two.

The chance exists of course that I'm wrong about one of my town reads. Wilgy's bizarre style always makes him plausible as a baddie, but I do think Elohcin made him look town. Maybe you're Satan, Quin.

Quin wrote:JJJ, what is your current opinion on a Eloh/SVS/rabbit baddie trio? That's your answer, by the way.

I would call that the second-most likely trio behind Eloh/S~V~S/Epignosis. I'd be at least somewhat surprised if the baddies aren't in that pile of 4 (Eloh, S~V~S, Epi, rabbit).

Ricochet wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Ricochet wrote:What movie was it, JJJ?
The new Star Trek. Visit Tinsel Town for a very brief review, beware of spoilers.
Lmao so both players tied to be lynched went to see that movie.

Only one came back alive.

It's that bad.

Ricochet wrote:What movie was it, JJJ?

The new Star Trek. Visit Tinsel Town for a very brief review, beware of spoilers.

Some things to be attentive to:

We started with 14 players and are now down 4, all town. I think that means that the most likely current ratio is 6 townies to 3 baddies to 1 independent. Those aren't great numbers, even considering we're about to eliminate a baddie. That could be one mislynch short of LyLo, no matter when the mislynch takes place. Scotty's role could also add complications if he is anti-town (a demo man is a possibility, or alternating night kills between he and the baddies).

The number of power roles and how they are distributed is dependent upon Rico's interpretation of the heist game guidelines. If he interpreted "three power role limit" to mean "just for the town faction", then that's quite different to "for all factions combined". I am inclined to think with the latter mindset, because it is the more dangerous scenario and thus the one best to be prepared for. We have one cop and one unknown independent -- that'd leave room for one more non-vanilla role. It could be on the baddie side, perhaps a godfather. Given the original numbers though (10:3:1), I think it's more likely to be on the town side, most likely the doctor who will be keeping our cop alive through Night 3.

I think it would be beneficial if everyone in the game states what they believe to be the most likely baddie trio.

Epignosis wrote:I'm arguing with the guy who thinks I got fooled by sig and some inactive. Maybe I am an inattentive player.

That doesn't have to be the only reality. There's no red peek on you. So long as you provide posts I will listen.

If you're going to hold on to your suspicion of me even now, then the onus is on you to illustrate the team mate relationship between Elohcin and I (not DrWilgy and I). That's the relevant dynamic right now.

Epignosis wrote:The latter. Fraudulent.

So you believe that Wilgy distanced from me, and then after the votes fell on me from yourself, Elohcin, and G-Man, Wilgy jumped to a townie opportunistically, and I am suspicious for joining him there?

If that's accurate, I think it's somewhat reasonable. I think it loses it's steam when DrWilgy makes his claim that he meant to blindside me wasn't able to do so. If we're team mates, then he is guilty of generating a very blatant, unnecessary link between he and I. The movement of the vote might already be some manner of link, but it'd be navigable. That ceases to be true when me makes that claim before I even die. My role is not revealed. Nobody knows for sure if I am bad. He stands nothing to gain by pretending he wanted to blindside me; he gains no civilian credit. I am an unknown entity. It doesn't make sense. The only thing that can come from that is his being linked more securely to me than he was before -- as you are doing right now.

DrWilgy is not an inattentive player.

Epignosis wrote:Spooked? No. It looked cooked to me.

When you say "cooked", do you mean "premeditated" or just "fake"?

Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:It's all shitty to me. Wilgy votes you, then moves when the wave comes, and then claims he was going to jump back on you, after you voted alongside him.
Okay, so you think the baddie team is Wilgy, Elohcin, and I?
At the moment, aye.

So, when "the pressure mounted" against me and Wilgy took flight from my wagon... who brought the pressure?

Elohcin and G-Man.

You're asserting that Wilgy was spooked by his own team mate's vote?

Epignosis wrote:It's all shitty to me. Wilgy votes you, then moves when the wave comes, and then claims he was going to jump back on you, after you voted alongside him.

Okay, so you think the baddie team is Wilgy, Elohcin, and I?

Epignosis wrote:DrWilgy voted you. Why did he do that, and why do you think he changed when the pressure came?

That's a question better directed to DrWilgy. I can do as much as guess:

At least at some point, he did suspect me. I think that during my exchange with G-Man, Wilgy was afraid that I was bad and trying to draw out the cop. That's what made me read him strongly town.

He has since claimed that he moved his vote with the intent to just blindside me at the last second, suggesting he still suspects/suspected me at the end of Day 2. I can believe that. I was a rather abrasive presence on Day 2 and I would expect that to make some people uneasy.

The only negative assertion I could make is that he meant to delay my lynch until later in the game when it would be more damaging to town. That's a reach though.

Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:You don't get a pass for being wrong on INH just because I was too. DrWilgy voted you and then switched, and you backed him up over a plethora of people you could have voted for instead.

Also, fuck rabbit and his cereal bowl.
No, of course I don't "get a pass". We're not talking about whether I get a pass.

We're talking about whether you've left even a single byte of storage space in your brain to allow for alternative scenarios to the "bad JJJ" scenario you've spent so much time constructing. We mutually suspected INH, and INH was civilian. Your immediate reaction was to place the blame on me and then criticize rabbit for his rationale.

That's horseshit.
No, it's a trend. Vompatti, and then INH. You went for low hanging fruit Day 1, cautioned against going after low-hanging fruit Day 2, and then lynched INH after somebody who had just voted you voted him. What analysis did you give DrWilgy's shift? Any?

That's exactly my point. You're taking two mislynches on Days 1 and 2 and asserting that I'm a part of some kind of ugly trend -- you're scapegoating me for those mislynches. I might be reputed in some circles for my strengths as a civilian, but I am just as capable of the next guy of getting two wrong to start a game. You know that. You know it because it's obvious.

I trust DrWilgy. I had no problem voting alongside him. I've already shared my reasons for that (his behavior during G-Man's back-and-forth with me). He and I both suspected INH. Quin suspected INH, who I also trust. That was enough for me.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:In case anyone wasn't aware, Epignosis suspects me.

Works for me Wilgy. Voted INH. Going into a movie now, it'll probably carry me through the deadline.

I hope your movie was good.[/quote]

It wasn't.

Epignosis wrote:You don't get a pass for being wrong on INH just because I was too. DrWilgy voted you and then switched, and you backed him up over a plethora of people you could have voted for instead.

Also, fuck rabbit and his cereal bowl.

No, of course I don't "get a pass". We're not talking about whether I get a pass.

We're talking about whether you've left even a single byte of storage space in your brain to allow for alternative scenarios to the "bad JJJ" scenario you've spent so much time constructing. We mutually suspected INH, and INH was civilian. Your immediate reaction was to place the blame on me and then criticize rabbit for his rationale.

That's horseshit.

I think Eloh's false green peek on Daisy is another good reflection for Daisy. She also falsely green peeked me. I suspect the motives were dual:

~ Get Daisy as an ally in a last-gasp effort to save herself

~ Make me look bad if/when she does get lynched

New beefs with Epignosis:

Epignosis wrote:That's two for 3J.

This came immediately after INH flipped civilian. I'm being scapegoated. Epignosis's own take on INH throughout the game prior to this:

Day 1:

Spoiler: show

Day 2:

Spoiler: show

He didn't vote for INH himself because he was too busy voting for me. He was clear in his suspicion of INH. When I get it wrong, "That's two for 3J". This doesn't look to me like a man who is even trying to be objective. It looks like a person who is making a conscious decision to hound me regardless of circumstance.

Frankly, his own Day 1 vote for INH looks exactly like my Day 2 vote. Pressed for time, settling on candidates, okay gotta go *vote INH*

~~~

Epignosis wrote:Gosh guys! Let's go for the people whose posts are "lacking" rather than those who are pretending to be good and failing remarkably at it!

Epignosis shitting in rabbit's cereal bowl for lynching a player that Epignosis himself suspected.

~~~

Separate thought: it's very unlikely that rabbit and Epignosis are team mates in this game. Rabbit denied Epi the JJJ lynch he craved so much. I highly doubt one scum takes that action to prevent a team mate's plot from resolving.

Elohcin wrote:okay, here we go. I am bad. everyone can vote for me now and you will get no info on who my teammates are. GO! You think infodumping is fun. There you go.

I've been there, I know the feeling. For what it's worth, I think you played well.

Elohcin wrote:I am cranky about infodumping, whether the info is true or false. It doesn't make mafia fun and interesting. It makes it stupid.

You have the right to feel that way. 90% of players on the Internet disagree, and the rules of this game disagree.

Elohcin wrote:
Spacedaisy wrote:
G-Man wrote:Boy, this day just gets stranger and stranger. Eight votes spread over seven people, including a Sadness style self-vote? This doesn't give me much hope.

2.25
I'm not sad. I'm just aware my attention is going somewhere else at the moment so I can't adequately choose a better option for right now.
Love you SD, but I can never see a reason to vote oneself. You have at least a slim chance at catching a baddie by voting someone other than yourself if you are civ.

2.12

You don't have a civ peek on Daisy.

Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Eloh didn't "interact" much with Epignosis other than to thoughtlessly accept his suspicion of me.

I think the most likely baddie team is Elohcin/Epignosis/S~V~S. Rabbit is the biggest wild card.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Regarding the Polo kill, my best guess is they thought he was a power role laying low. Otherwise it strikes me as a counterproductive kill.
So now sig fooled me and Polo fooled me, or maybe Eloh overruled me on sig and just Polo fooled me.

You have made it clear you're not used to this stuff, so yeah they both fooled you. When I get to a computer I'll display the rest of your bullshit from the night phase and elsewhere.

Elohcin wrote:I'm fed up with all this cop claiming. Honestly, its ridiculous. I am the true cop, y'all. And I have two green peeks. Night 1 - Daisy - civ. Night 2 - JJJ - civ.

Really, all this cop claiming is going to confuse everyone. A cop is not supposed to just reveal what he/she finds. The cop is supposed to use the info he or she receives and build a case on that person if they find their peek is bad.

I will not reveal anymore peeks. But if I get a baddie peek, I will do my best to build a convincing case on that player as the game intended.

Now, stop cop claiming so we can have some fun and find some baddies.

3.01

Last two paragraphs are the words of someone caught and cranky about the infodump.

Regarding the Polo kill, my best guess is they thought he was a power role laying low. Otherwise it strikes me as a counterproductive kill.

I wouldn't expect to be off your list, G-Man. I can understand. Share your concerns as you have them and I'll give you whatever answers I can.

Scotty:

You should reveal your role. We know you're indy. If you can be trusted to serve the civilian cause then please be transparent.

United knows how to excite a passenger. Zesty ranch snack mix. Oh boy.

Quin wrote:By no means should this day just be a crowd of people jumping on the same wagon and not discussing alternatives. I'll be pointing fingers at anyone who does.

Point fingers and scream in caps lock. There's a ton to discuss.

Eloh didn't "interact" much with Epignosis other than to thoughtlessly accept his suspicion of me.

I think the most likely baddie team is Elohcin/Epignosis/S~V~S. Rabbit is the biggest wild card.

S~V~S wrote:
Elohcin wrote:
Scotty wrote:
This isn't anything new, but it's very intriguing to me. In so many other sites and venues the day 1 is literally random. Like, literally in the sense that in a group, most the time people will vote for someone based on a dream they had, or not liking the name of a person, or what have you. But this site especially has a weird way of dogpiling on someone that has a certain air if suspicion for doing something out of the ordinary. It's always amazing to me that votes on the first day are so justified here. I can't recall the last time I went back to day 1 conversations to get a confirmation of a tonal read on someone. Only to look at votes and who voted for whom, and when.

This is very interesting to me. I love to hear about how things go on other sites, even though I don't plan on ever playing anywhere other than here. I can only imagine how I would be grilled for voting someone Day 1 just because I didn't like their name or had a certain dream about them. Of course there is the occasional random vote on Day 1 here, but it always seem sot be a controversial issue. And it's usually professed as "random", not excused with a silly explanation.
In our original home cultures, Day 1 votes have, for the most part, generally been srs bsns. Someone is gonna die based on our votes, how not srs? People always tended to take flak for trivial voting reasons, randomizing, etc.

@G-Man, yeah, I always tend to get a residual baddie BTS effect the next few games, lol. Oddly, it tends to effect me the opposite way, I tend to want to trust my bad partner from a recent intense game like BSG was.
Scotty wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Scotty wrote:Ah yes, you know I agree with this criticism. Day 1 lynches produce more info than no-lynches, but why even invite a self-lynch. In what world would that benefit town if you are town?
I didn't invite a self-lynch. This is the first suspicious post of the game.
In your opinion.
In my opinion, too, tbh.

I understood clearly what Jay was saying. I am not sure how you would interpret it otherwise?

S~V~S and Eloh had a few exchanges but it was all idle/neutral chatter like this.

rabbit8 wrote:
Elohcin wrote:
sig wrote:

No it didn't alarm me in that sense, I just found it odd that you'd include me with the other names. I guess I did do well in the Scrimmage with no BTSC, but I still found it pingy, but also flattering so thanks.....I think?
Well, I do think you're a good player. Please tell me why I should move my vote off of you an onto someone else. And, who should that someone else be? I am thinking Vompatti. His craziness this game doesn't seem to follow his norm. What do you think? It's almost as he is half crazy, half trying. Which is odd to me.

You think JJJ is lying? Pretty ballsy gamble by JJJ if so.

rabbit's only direct interaction with Elohcin. Doesn't tell me much. I'd ask rabbit what this question had to do with her post though, it seems arbitrary in this context.

Elohcin wrote:
Spacedaisy wrote:
G-Man wrote:Boy, this day just gets stranger and stranger. Eight votes spread over seven people, including a Sadness style self-vote? This doesn't give me much hope.

2.25
I'm not sad. I'm just aware my attention is going somewhere else at the moment so I can't adequately choose a better option for right now.
Love you SD, but I can never see a reason to vote oneself. You have at least a slim chance at catching a baddie by voting someone other than yourself if you are civ.

2.12

Low-key criticism of Daisy. Nice look for her.

Elohcin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:i'll try again Epi, just in case my points were unclear.

1. Whether there is a cop in this game is irrelevant. There could be, and there are almost certainly some kinds of power roles. When a vanilla civilian provides "cop cover", he or she attracts a night kill thereby protecting the cop or any other non-vanilla civilians.

2. sig's very own posts display a consciousness of cop cover. That's plenty of evidence on its own to suggest he might have had the intent to provide cover himself. Moreover, his staunch refutations of my peeks may have made it look like he had the power to make peeks instead, thus rendering my claim doubtful. That's the proposed method of cover.

3. That his understanding of a cop role differed from mine has no logical bearing on whether he meant to provide cover. You keep bringing this up and it's still irrelevant.

4. That I waited until his death to express my thought that he might be providing cover is a product of not wanting to expose him -- I thought he might actually be a cop. His cover was solid whether he intended it or not.

5. Wilgy associating us as team mates is not sufficient motive for a night kill. If my gambit is to green peek sig as a baddie, I'm smart enough to realize that some people might find that curious and associate the two of us -- especially in this culture where that is foreign. So to say I killed him because I wanted to break that theory is to say I didn't think my peek through in the first place. I'm a very calculated baddie.

6. Killing him does not earn me town credit either (nobody is rushing to hand me any as you can see). Because of our association, any kill on sig is by default going to draw scrutiny to me.

Where is my logic faulty?
I see these points, but I don't think they defend the fact that you could be bad.

2.07

lol

Elohcin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:With Vompatti gone, who do you suspect most right now Elohcin?
I'm still confused as to why wilgy would say that he thinks SVS is civ and didn't want her lynched, but then goes and offers her name as an alternative lynch to vompatti. It just doesn't make sense. And I hate to fixate, I really do. I don't want to put myself in a position to tunnel. However, no one else has really said much today, so it's stlll in the forefront of my mind.

Wilgy is town.

Elohcin wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:No, I'd have preferred to lynch you or Sig. Was I ok with Vompatti's death though? Yes! It was exhilarating.
Your post history reveals some degree of faith in S~V~S. You said this about Vompatti:

DrWilgy wrote:I'm noticing the same things that others are about Vomps. His lust to survive is apparent. Unknown if it's a real spicy burrito or not. Knowing him, it could be as fake as I am on a rainy day. I'm ok with him dying and will change my vote.
Why did you elect to generate an S~V~S counterwagon to Vompatti?
@Eloh as well. To give the option. Nothing more. I didn't think that it would've been the choice vote anyways.
I don't mean to harp on it. But if you could just be a little more specific as to why you brought up SVS in particular, that'd be great.

Low-key smearing on Wilgy, nice look for him.

Elohcin wrote:
Quin wrote:
- elohcin voted sig and ignored 3j's testimony that he was civ.

What, I'm not allowed to think for myself?

Quin looks very town here. Indignant and haughty from Elohcin.

I actually feel like a dope for voting INH. Unfortunately I didn't remember G-Man's vouch when I had to pop in on the phone and place a vote.

I have a little wi-fi on the plane and will look for Eloh interactions of note. I can't put them all into one clean post on this thing without it taking way too long, so I'm sorry for the spam if it happens.

Believe me or don't: I had an ikling you were the cop ("you can't be a checker unless there's more than one") and I put you in the baddie list in hopes of discouraging your kill.

Elohcin with that blatant opportunism yesterday. I'm content to start looking through her interactions at the first opportunity.

Well I guess 2 for 3 with G-Man himself.

Boarding a plane, so I'll be out for a bit.

If G-Man is legit then my list of five is 2 for 2 in non-townies. Bite me haters.

My first inclination is to believe you, G-Man. I just have one question: why not wait until later in the day to reveal that like you said you might?

S~V~S made two postson Day two, the first of which was just to say that shewas reading back to make an informed vote.

In the second post, she said she didn't get the cases against INH or me and voted G-Man instead.

At the time of her vote, I had 2 votes and INH had 2 votes. We were the tally leaders with a handful of players behind us at 1 vote. G-Man was not among them; he had 0 votes.

With under an hour remaining in the day phase, S~V~S placed a vote on a player under no other current pressure, and took no initiative to promote his lynch beyond that vote. I think she may have known JJJ/INH was a civ-civ pair of wagons and evaded them both, taking advantage of the other solo votes to camouflage her own.

I'll give you five, Polo.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think the baddies are most likely to come from this pile:

G-Man
Epignosis
Elohcin
Scotty
S~V~S

Process of elimination. I'll expand later if I can.

I'll say this: if Polo is bad, then that is abysmal. He should feel bad. "Not making posts" is not a strategy.

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