The Syndicate

At no point after my death did I regret publicly claiming my independence.

Until the resurrection poll.

Has juliets ever been lynched in her life?

You did a great job, DrumBeats. It didn't all go your way, but shit happens. Town needed someone to step into the spotlight and try to lead the charge, and you were more than capable in that role. I hope you continue playing on The Syndicate with us, we can use your pro-civilian methodology. You're a fun guy to work with.

Epignosis wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Thanks for killing me, jerks.

I wanted to toy with you a while. Scotty was scared of you.

Your death ended up being part of a larger scheme.

Scotty had BTSC with Eloh, and she told him she was Andy. She killed leetic (I think). We killed her. Then I pretended to be Andy the rest of the way, which paid dividends when TH chose me for BTSC. I made like I was Andy and I killed you (hence my remarks after your death).

That's why TH and I were vouching for each other, and why I was absolutely pleased that DB wanted TH's head before mind.

Turnip Head, you don't owe me one. This is me paying you back for Harry Potter.

Whenever you said you were perfectly fine with TH being lynched before you I was like

Also, my bad about the whole "I think he's bad" right after my death post. I didn't get a linki or I wouldn't have let that into the thread.

Thanks for killing me, jerks.

Turnip Head wrote:I don't have much resembling a case on Epi yet. I'm underwhelmed by what I've seen from him so far. Those questions he asked ^ felt like he was talking down to the town rather than contributing, a minor ping. And no words for his NK'd wife Elo? Maybe he knew she wanted out and was happy to oblige

I've got my eye on him, as we all should.

I think he's bad.

insertnamehere wrote:If you really are an independent-ass independent who's win condition has nothing to do with either team, what incentive does the mafia have to keep you around? So far, you've been uber-active player who's worked double-time giving reads and tried to help catch baddie.

I just don't buy your reasoning for revealing this now.

From their perspective, killing me is the numbers equivalent to killing nobody. I trust they're not interested in something so unproductive as that.

If you don't believe my reasoning, then provide an alternative. Why did I reveal it now?

Suspicion @ everyone who just saw me randomly claim independent and didn't say anything at all.

Turnip Head wrote:JJJ for the rest of the game:

*picture*

I hope I'm wrong

lol

I pledge to continue trying my best to be a productive contributor to the hunt. I don't expect to be given any free pass.

Matt wrote:@DOM, right now it says "Night 3.1". Does that mean the next night phase will be "Night 3.2" or will it be "Night 4" ? Thanks!

This is what concerns you right now?

How about this for something completely different:

I'm not a townie.

I'm independent. I've been approved to say that.

Townies: lynching me does not help you win this game.

Baddies: killing me does not help you win this game.

Just leave me be and I'll play Mafia in peace.

Y'all should call me Prisoner 509378.

Before 80 people ask the same question: "Why did you decide to reveal this now, JJJ?"

~ Because these repeated night phases terrify me. If I am one of those poor people who is slaughtered, I'm screwed.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I've never been bad with S~V~S so I don't have much of a basis to judge how she might behave.

However, I have been bad as S~V~S.

I probably wouldn't make this move if I was bad either. I don't think it's strategically weak as you seem to think TH, but I still wouldn't -- I'm not the type for big gambits. I am more methodical, and I'd pursue a Quin lynch the classic way (smear him with a big fake case and try to pull the strings) and save this Day-end ability for a more critical moment.

I've never been bad with S~V~S so I don't have much of a basis to judge how she might behave.

Agreed. Even if a good opportunity strikes when I'm not here, this needs to happen -- someone else should be prepared to take lead. Periods of heightened controversy are the best times to do this. Force everyone to stop darting their eyes every which way and take stances.

Updating this sucker for TH and juliets.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Post history links are necessary for my survival.

bea
birdwithteeth11
Bullzeye / JaggedJimmyJay
Cobalt / indiglo
DFaraday
DrumBeats
Elohcin
Enrique
Epignosis
fingersplints
Goldy / espers
insertnamehere
leetic
LoRab
Matt
Quin
Scotty
Serge
sig / Turnip Head
Sorsha
Spacedaisy
S~V~S
timmer
Zeus / juliets

Maybe we should do some live GTH reads.

Another thought, this one perhaps in S~V~S's favor:

She placed her Quin vote and vacated the premises. I don't think this would be an unreasonable baddie gambit, but it would be unusual for a baddie to leave the game thread knowing what was about to happen. I'd expect that baddie to anticipate the spotlight being centered directly upon her and have her fists up and ready to square off with the immediate backlash. S~V~S leaving might be a sign that she didn't realize what was coming.

DrumBeats wrote:Agreed on most of the above. I've got no idea about if this is within SVS's meta - but the primary civilian forced vote theory is in direct contradiction with it according to the quote that Sorsha brought up. For the last question, I honestly do not see why a person with a vote forcing role would force Quin to vote SVS and then force SVS to vote Quin. I just don't see a reason.

This is my concern -- it might not be as simple as a forced vote. There seemed to be some degree of communication between them, perhaps even BTSC. They both placed those votes with a tone of nonchalance, neither of them was bothered by other doing so, and they both did it immediately upon the start of a day phase. Like I've said, I don't know what this might mean, but it seems like it has to mean something.

I would suggest that S~V~S might have placed her Quin vote immediately just to make it look like this relationship exists, but Quin reacted to her vote with a joke -- like he wasn't bothered by it at all.

Scotty wrote:I think DB jumping on SVS right out of the gate is opportunism. I acknowledge that literally anyone could have done it, but his doing so and his continual push that she is definitely bad has me thinking the opposite.

I'll let DB answer to the accusation of opportunism, as well as the other things you've asserted. I'll propose a separate point:

I see culture clash. A few Syndicateers see this and their instinctive reaction is "why the eff would a baddie ever do this?"

That's not my reaction at all. I was brought up elsewhere. DB was brought up elsewhere, and Bulbagarden's games are a lot more like RYM's than they are like The Syndicate's. I think that breeds a certain type of player base, and where he comes from I bet this stuff isn't so absurd as some people here seem to think it is. On RYM this wouldn't even be a surprising gambit, it'd be ordinary.

Another thought:

~ The advantage gained for the baddies in this situation is diminished some if there are multiple baddie teams (assuming the Syndicate norm for alternating night kills is maintained). The baddies in general enjoy an advantage, but the individual teams not as much. Indeed they might threaten one another additionally in this situation. I think the leetic/Elohcin kills might be a sign of multiple baddie teams -- I thought they both leaned toward the side of badness, perhaps even as team mates.

One thing Scotty said which I do think is valid is that we shouldn't spend the entirety of the Eternal Night debating S~V~S. Whether she's good or bad, the baddie team(s) would love nothing more than for us to waste all of this time on one player. We should be treating this time like a day phase in every regard except the ability to place votes.

A few thoughts/questions on the situation:

~ It would not be idiotic for a baddie to do this. To call attention to oneself is not a significant sacrifice to eliminate a beloved princess role with a significantly shortened day phase (amounting essentially to four straight night phases as DFaraday said). "Attention" doesn't mean anything at all if the baddie doesn't get lynched, and in this scenario -- getting lynched wouldn't even be a bad trade-off. In a 7:2 town:scum ratio (I have no idea what this game's ratio is, call that a baseline), it'd be right around breaking even. So, worst-case scenario they break even, and best-case they get ahead. It's a smart move, not a stupid one.

~ I don't think DrumBeats looks bad at all. He looks like a very confident townie, perhaps more confident than he should be. I don't struggle to attribute that confidence to the significance of the event and S~V~S relationship with that event. There's no logical necessity to associate his confidence with a baddie ploy.

~ I wish we'd stop basing everything around the cot-damned lie detector role. That's not center of the cot-damned universe cot damnit.

~ A better question to ask than "is this a good move for the baddies?" would be "is S~V~S the type of player who would make this move?" This is one I don't really have an answer to, but those who have known S~V~S the longest might. Does she have a history for making big plays like this, for badding around in plain sight, for loud gambits? These are not absurd notions; a ton of people really do play this way. Hi MacDougall.

~ What to people think of the relationship between Quin's Day 2 vote for S~V~S and S~V~S's Day 3 vote for Quin? They were nearly identical in timing and in being motivated by something other than suspicion.

I think my pro-S~V~S argument is resonating with me more right now than my anti-S~V~S argument. It's unusual to have a compelling case both ways though.

That last post of mine one reason to reconsider the notion that S~V~S isn't bad.

Now here's a reason why she might still be:

This happened really fast. Someone had to activate their role to end the day phase specifically after Quin received the vote, meaning someone had to see the vote happen and then immediately send a PM to Dom to kill the day. If it is a baddie plot to force S~V~S to vote Quin and then end the day -- they'd have to know for sure she'd vote immediately and be prepared to end the day phase. I don't know how they'd know that. If they don't know that, then that means they'd have gotten lucky with her quick vote and reacted to it with very impressive quickness -- so fast that I doubt they'd have even discussed it. So fast that I think one baddie would have sent the PM without consulting the team mates.

With this in mind, it strikes me as more likely that the speed at which this occurred indicates a pre-planned event, one that would require certainty of the timing of S~V~S's vote. This certainty would exist if she is on the team devising the plan.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Quin voted for S~V~S immediately upon the beginning of Day 2, admitting to having no suspicion of her. Very similar to this. There's probably a relationship.

I'll elaborate.

Quin's second post of Day 2, minutes after the rabbit8 kill was revealed:

Quin wrote:Voting SVS. I do not recommend that she be lynched, unless of course further information comes to light that would support it. Either way, don't take my vote to mean I even suspect SVS, as I do not.

Quin's vote is not relevant to his suspicions, and he openly states that he doesn't want her lynched. He was a civilian, so we can confidently state that whatever happened here, Quin was being genuine. His vote never left S~V~S that day phase.

S~V~S's first post of Day 3, and the first post of that day overall:

S~V~S wrote:Quin you know where I am coming from. I am voting for you, and I don't expect to be changing it.

S~V~S's vote isn't as overtly not-about-suspicion as Quin's was, but it's just as immediate. She seems to imply that Quin would have some understanding of why she voted for him, and his immediate response might corroborate that:

Quin wrote:Oh well, I'm alive so no harm done

I was going to say that I'm instantly suspicious of Elohcin and Epignosis for not voting corporate. They voted against receiving potential information on baddie roles which we need.

It's possible that elohcin was killed by a civ (possibly Andy?) who might share my opinion, and that she could have been bad. It depends on whether we'd see a baddie flip as a result of the night kill.

linki: That is so innapropriate. (that's an angela reference. )

I believe the linki refers to S~V~S's vote. Quin showed no signs of being perturbed by her vote. He just make a joke.

~~~

My point here is that I think these two votes have something to do with one another. I don't really know what that'd be, but we know for sure that Quin's vote was an honest one -- and he did not suspect S~V~S or want her lynched. Given that half of this interaction is confirmed to be genuine, I think there's at least a decent reason to feel better about the other half (S~V~S).

I don't know what kind of roles or mechanic might trigger given these votes, but I'd be surprised if they're not somehow related. We know for certain that neither of them could have been forced by Meredith, because neither of them missed the vote the day prior to the votes in question.

Quin voted for S~V~S immediately upon the beginning of Day 2, admitting to having no suspicion of her. Very similar to this. There's probably a relationship.

S~V~S could have been forced. It'd require a baddie role to exist which parallels Meredith's or comes close. That's a guess, but it's plausible enough to consider. S~V~S seemed to imply that Quin understood her vote on some level, and he didn't react adversely to it. That's something she can talk about.

That's all I have to say at the moment. I'm not home.

Quin wrote:Anyway, I'm switching my vote to Wilgy, for self preservation purposes.

You don't want to lynch me, because alignment aside, if I am lynched, the mafia will be given a significant advantage over the town in the next night phase.

#supatown
#plznokill
#trumpcard
#savemepam and Erin
#iwarnedyou
#skinnedsalmon
#toomanyhashtags

I have to go to a birthday thing now. I apologise in advance if you lynch me.

Quin made it obvious. S~V~S looks bad.

Corporate.

I believe two choices is Dom's intent. I clicked payroll for the other one, pretty much at random.

timmer wrote:That sucks, BWT. But why didn't you stop the lynch, considering your role, etc???

*starts seemer conspiracy theory*

Matt wrote:You think there's anything there or he was just happy the game started and wanted to post anything, even if it was nothing?

I don't think that's particularly important, no. If you suspect Scotty and desire to lynch him on Day 3, I have to imagine there's something more substantial than this that drives you.

Matt wrote:I suddenly feel a bit better about my play.

Great, now channel that feeling into something productive. I know you have it in you. Stop making me pep talk you!

Matt wrote:Let's go after Scotty next day phase.

Sell me. I want to be sold. Make me hate Scotty's guts.

Okay, why the hell am I explaining GTH reads in this game? Serge I can understand, but you've seen me do these 80 times, S~V~S. Where are you going with this?

S~V~S wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Also it isn't a gun, its just your opinion.

Only barely. Generally the word "opinion" implies there is some sort of reasoned origin. A gun to head read on a totally neutral player is whatever the brain spits out in a moment -- at least if the person doing the exercise isn't cheating. It's a stance taken instead of "I don't know", because "I don't know" is worthless.

But it isn't neutral. You base it on past experience if a person has no content. That's opinion, right?

Yes.

Barely.

Like I said.

It's not thoroughly reasoned, but it's a stance taken. Instead of saying "neutral read", a stance is taken. So it's not neutral. Even if perhaps it more honestly would be.

Serge wrote:I didn't say it's impossible. Sorry if I don't make any effort on Day 1.

I'm only trying to convey to you my own strategic mindset. I give a great deal of effort every day and every night because I literally have nothing better to do -- and I enjoy it. I am called "over-eager" rather often in games by people who aren't familiar with my lunacy. This is who I am. JJJ Pride.

Serge wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Also it isn't a gun, its just your opinion.

Also he started it himself, pointing a gun to your own head is weird. I would understand it if we're dropping like flies and we don't seem to be getting anywhere. It just seems too eager.

I've done it on Day 1 before. A lot of people like to convince themselves that it's impossible to make headway early in a game and they don't even try.

Not me.

S~V~S wrote:Also it isn't a gun, its just your opinion.

Only barely. Generally the word "opinion" implies there is some sort of reasoned origin. A gun to head read on a totally neutral player is whatever the brain spits out in a moment -- at least if the person doing the exercise isn't cheating. It's a stance taken instead of "I don't know", because "I don't know" is worthless.

Serge wrote:But it's early. Like someone pointed out, you had someone as "Good" when their post was content void. So if I didn't post, automatically I'm good in your book?

Actually I called you bad.

I know Sorsha a little better than I know you, so I didn't give you the benefit of the doubt. Unfair perhaps, but I don't really care about fairness when a gun is to my head.

Bummer, BWT. See you next time.

S~V~S wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Immediate observation: S~V~S was here to observe the entirety of this EOD development, and never provided any take of her own on either leetic or BWT. She kept her vote in a place where it has no function (on Epignosis).

Perhaps she has no opinion on either strong enough to get involved in a tie? Or a near tie?

Link I bleech

Why are you afraid of a tie?

Serge wrote:Yep.

You might as well tell Forrest Gump that playing ping pong is uncharacteristic of him.

Serge wrote:Also the fact that it's too early for it.

Never. There were 600-700 posts or so in this thread when I did that. Plenty.

Serge wrote:I stand by the GTH thing, though.

You stand by giving GTH reads being uncharacteristic of me?

Immediate observation: S~V~S was here to observe the entirety of this EOD development, and never provided any take of her own on either leetic or BWT. She kept her vote in a place where it has no function (on Epignosis).

Zeus, you have three minutes to place a vote. Do it.

S~V~S wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

S~V~S wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Jay, is good your default?

I wouldn't say "default", since having a default kind of defeats the purpose of GTH reads. But if I have absolutely no idea whatsoever and I am not inspired to take either stance, I usually go with good.

Gotcha; I was wondering since you list Sorsha as Good and her two posts are totally content void (other than I hope she is enjoying camping or hiking or whatever she is doing), you know?

I don't see Sorsha as the type to "lay low" just for the sake of progressing a baddie game. She's capable of playing a more respectable baddie game than that. I assume her time restraints are legitimate.

I have no read on her; I just used her as an example based on the who posted list, you know? So you civ read her based on your perception of the kind of player she is, not really her content in this thread?

With a gun to my head, yes. "Her content in this thread" barely even exists. I'm not going to hand her the keys to the city and profess undying loyalty though. I'll wait for her to get involved.

insertnamehere wrote:aaaand leetic self-voted...

maybe his role has powers that only become unlocked after he's lynched?

My first thought is that he's trying to communicate being silenced, but it'd be a hell of a risk to take right now considering the tally.

Serge wrote:JJJ on the other hand, GTH is quite uncharacteristic of you. You also forgave Quin. Also, bad vibes. I don't feel Superman JJJ right now, but Lex Luthor JJJ. Jesse Eisenberg Lex Luthor.

What?

I didn't quite invent GTH reads, but they are definitely my thing more than anyone else's around here. I do them constantly. What makes you think they're uncharacteristic of me?

I didn't "forgive" Quin; I never really found him suspicious in the first place. Are you confusing me with someone else?

S~V~S wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Jay, is good your default?

I wouldn't say "default", since having a default kind of defeats the purpose of GTH reads. But if I have absolutely no idea whatsoever and I am not inspired to take either stance, I usually go with good.

Gotcha; I was wondering since you list Sorsha as Good and her two posts are totally content void (other than I hope she is enjoying camping or hiking or whatever she is doing), you know?

I don't see Sorsha as the type to "lay low" just for the sake of progressing a baddie game. She's capable of playing a more respectable baddie game than that. I assume her time restraints are legitimate.

Oh wait, you voted for yourself. Goofball. Talk, man.