The Syndicate

We played one RYM game where the host just entirely turned off the restrictions against dead posting -- dead players could post whatever they wanted on or off-topic. It was actually the same game where I blew up a thousand people.

That was... interesting.

Since this dialogue is happening in the Phenon thread, I want to make it clear that I have no complaints about the way you ran your game sprityo. It was great fun and you did a great job.

The majority of the time I think this stuff is innocuous. There have been a few cases though where I have personally been influenced by a dead post, or more frequently a host post, in a way that has aided my hunt rather than hinder it. Indeed I think that raises the most frequent "mistake", if it should be called that: hosts interacting directly with players in the midst of a hunting effort, solicited or even unsolicited, in such a way that it becomes clearer than before that the hunter genuinely does not know something. I could call it a "host slip".

This isn't something I would raise a stink about, because I don't care that much. Most people aren't bothered and that's good enough for me.

I know you meant no harm, Marmot. You weren't trying to cheat or anything, shit happens.

I think there's a tendency for players and hosts alike to severely underestimate the influence they can have on the game with certain behaviors. This goes for hosts taking and answering questions publicly, allowing players to discuss replacement decisions publicly, pretty much any dead post including those that seem meaningless, non-player posts -- everything can affect the direction of thread discussion and what is happening inside the minds of the players.

I mean no criticism of anyone here, because when it comes to this kind of thing I can be a stickler. It's why I almost never post anything when I am dead and I am a very quiet host.

I'm personally not a fan of dead posting, but so long as it remains about sandwiches and salad and is kept to a minimum then whatever. It crossed the line a bit in this game, that isn't representative of what's typical here.

Silver Lantern wrote:So all members of the town are considered winners? Is that typical of this site? On my site only those alive At the end win, but this certainly encourages more selfless behavior. I think it's good.

Thanks for the Game Spirit and everyone. It was also interesting seeing the spoiler spread sheet and then following along.

In all of my cyber travels, this marks only the second time I've heard of survival-conditioned townies (this site being the other). Cool beans.

Sloonei wrote:

Marmot wrote:Jay, role a mafia role soon please.

I try to be suspicious of Jay in every game we play together just to be safe, but at this point I think it's been about 3 years since he was actually scum in a game with me.

Then again, I'm also town 99% of the time unless it's the champs tournament, in which case I'm scum 100% of the time.

It's okay, you can trust me. I am never bad. Never ever.

My favorite thing about this game was that it brought together players from all over the Internet, unintentionally, into a boiling and chaotic environment which still remained always respectful and welcoming. It was so great to play with everyone here that I've never played with before or only played with a little bit. I'm going to say a little bit about each of the players in the game:

insertnamehere -- Bad luck. Dyslexicon was a good choice for your role I think, because given the WIFOMy approach they appreciate they were a good bet for long-term survival. The late-game explosion wasn't something you could readily control.

sig -- I wish we'd known you better. Let it be stated that the civilians made only one lynch in this game of a member of their own team, and this was it. Sorry for the generic siglynch, one of these days we'll finally know better.

Marmot -- I think you also suffered a little bad luck, because that Day 2 lynch developed late in a way that is very difficult to contain. You asked about the interactive analyses: I found them to be mostly inconclusive. You do well to reveal little. The most I got was some strengthened town reads like Sloonei said. You didn't out your teammates.

Soneji -- You did well in the time leading up to your demise in that you accelerated your play to get with the pace when it was most necessary. I think your post count jumped by about 30 in your final 24 hours of life. I appreciate the effort to forge onward.

Quin -- I'm glad you were town. I was annoyed at myself for giving you town credit in my mafia interactive analyses after you'd flipped mafia, it felt like another sound Quin duping effort. You've proven that you can look quite like a civilian and not be one, so take the continued suspicion and acceptance of your false flip as a compliment.

Long Con -- I enjoyed your gambit-oriented behavior in this game. That kind of thing doesn't always work, but it can, and it is usually good to sow confusion either way. It was bad luck that I'd tracked you on the night you claimed to pass along the gun, and you weren't truly cooked until we clarified a host detail.

Jackofhearts -- I really appreciate it when a civilian is drawing ill-advised suspicion, and even made a likely target for a kill by another civilian, and they keep their head on straight. That is really a rare talent in this game, and it shows me that you really understand the value of sacrifice and teamwork. Your role being revealed was the first clue we had that some explosions might be coming later, and you made some sound reads that weren't necessarily en vogue when you made them. Keep on playing with us, you're great to have around.

Silver Lantern -- Don't sweat the errant shot. You were the one shouldered with that responsibility and I don't blame you for it. What you did well in this game was promote yourself as a scumhunter; it enabled a few of us to view you in a good light so you could have room to operate. That's not always easy. I hope to see you here more; I think your effort-minded town play definitely has a place on any good team and it'd make you a scary bad guy.

DrWilgy -- What can ya do. I've been victimized by friendly fire very early in a recent game myself; shit happens. You always play with the right attitude and it's a relief to those who have the wrong idea about your alignment sometimes.

Golden -- This was the first time that you and I have been on 100% directly opposing sides since Economics (with GY!BE being kind of applicable). That's hard to believe. The way you meant to play off of Quin and his false flip was creative, and had you not exploded it may have been successful. I dunno, it's a bummer you didn't have the opportunity to see it through.

Sloonei -- You turned my top suspect of Day 1 into one of my top town reads of Day 2. Thank you for that. I am sure the scum team wasn't pleased when a relatively lynchable target was replaced with you, always the effortful and convincing civilian. You also clearly played an important role in the first scum lynch, and your early reads were very good.

speedchuck -- I can't say enough about the way you played in this game, sir. To win as a last-man standing independent requires as much pure luck as strong play (I'd know, being the luckiest serial killer of all time recently). You came as close as one can come, and that is to be commended. Everyone realizes how hard that situation is, and even if you didn't technically "win", this was clearly a game in which you played winning Mafia. I hope to see you around here more often, you're off to a stellar start.

nutella -- I said it before: you're becoming a very potent civilian. Don't doubt yourself on that, and don't attribute it to blind luck. This isn't the first time I have seen you put together a fantastic civilian effort in recent memory. It's been awesome to watch your confidence grow, and it has been reflected in your success. You're doing things the right way and I encourage you to keep it up.

Scotty -- "I'm a fucking stump" is a sentence that has replayed in my head a number of times. Given that I know you hadn't seen that role before, it's hilarious to me that you'd get it and feel that way about it. Also, you handled the role very well -- you earned the credit it could have given you merely by claiming it, which meant you didn't have to use it and suffer the disadvantages.

MovingPictures07 -- We all greatly appreciate you stepping in, even if it meant succumbing to your addiction. You obviously found yourself in a very difficult position in the end, and you found a way to come through. Bravo sir, and take pride in what you accomplished.

juliets -- I've already said some, but I'll add this: in the final phase, when nerves were running high and the other civilians were struggling to find their footing -- you were the calming influence they needed to sort themselves. I know that you also felt the same nerves and stress, but you still played that phase with the sort of leadership that so many towns lack in that kind of situation. That's why our faction won this game.

Dyslexicon -- You're as fun as they come, and I was so thrilled to be able to play a game with you after having hosted you in the scrimmage last year. You bring an unorthodox methodology to the table, and you use it effectively in a way that both benefits you and is entertaining. That's something I lack -- I am the most boring player! I hope to see more of you, you're a great fit here.

Fredwood -- I was wrong about my reads on you at pretty much every turn! I read you strongly as a civilian and later I read you strongly as an independent, and all along you were neither. Hats off to you for that, and for a game well-played. You outlived your teammates in part due to your own tenacity under consistent pressure from a number of sources. Keep on playing with us!

Strawhenge -- I'm so glad you played, pal. It's been too long, and combining your presence with the general makeup of this game it felt like old times on RYM. You definitely picked a good game to return to Mafia with. I know you didn't have the time you thought you'd have, but you still put up a lot of posts and made the best effort you could. It was worth exactly as much as winning the game in the final phase. Take pride.

Nachomamma8 -- I'm still cranky that you were killed so early. I was stoked to play a game with you, especially given that we were both civilians. I think we'd play off each other very effectively, and apparently the mafia team didn't want that to happen. Stick around!

juliets wrote:I don't think I'll play another game like this because my lack of knowledge on these terms and ways of playing was a real hindrance. I'm sorry it was so annoying for you watchers. I don't think you understand how stressful this last day was.

You weren't annoying; much of the stress translated into the spectator chat too! The chat was also spoiled, so people in there have a very easy standpoint to become frustrated when something they know to be wrong might come to fruition. That's Mafia.

You played a hell of a game juliets and you should be proud of it. What you and MP faced in this final phase was one of the tougher situations a civilian can encounter -- you entered leaning toward one suspect, and after careful deliberation and consideration you changed your mind. Correctly. I spent most of this phase expecting Strawhenge to be lynched because it was simply the easier choice to make. He had fewer posts, his role claim could be questioned, and his opposition (speedchuck) was pouring content into the thread. That's not an easy switch and it's extremely impressive that the two of you were able to manage it.

I really think that 80-90% of civilians in that position get it wrong. Hold your head very high.

I had internally considered the notion of a forger a bit, but it was never worth open discussion IMO. We had two points of evidence visible:

1. Long Con's post
2. The actual flips

I didn't care about anything LC said the day he was obviously being lynched, so I was just more inclined to trust the flip. Any other evidence is inherently dubious next to that, and it didn't matter anyway. Process of elimination still ruled my reads, even if Fredwood ended up a suspect for the wrong threat.

~~~

Very good game, everyone. I think all the factions perfomed at a high level and it made for an intense, competitive environment. That's what I love to see in Mafia. Kudos for making that happen, sprityo. I'll have more to say later when time permits.

It's plausible that Quin was not mafia and that you were truly his backup, juliets. We see that Fred's role was a forger, which means any of the prior role flips can technically be theorized as having been falsified. Hell, it's even possible that Fred himself was not the forger and that at some point in the game the actual forger tagged Fred as a fake role! The lack of a night kill here might strongly suggest that Fred was indeed mafia and that they're done for now -- however, it's still plausible a night kill was prevented. There were ways.

In any event, given the information in front of us it would seem logical that the focus should be on the marker, who was quite likely not Fred. Which one of you is full of crap? I see a number of solid candidates.

Yeah I gotta split too.

vote Fredwood

That's the hammer. No more posting, folks.

I gotta go for a little while so I can't really wait. We're at L-1 and I am probably going to drop the hammer shortly.

MP: I know you said you wanted to make an appearance prior to the deadline. You can use this opportunity to review the day and orient yourself to the dialogue you've missed, while the thread is locked.

I have no idea what will be happening beyond this phase in this game. Hopefully we can all find the energy to stay engaged just a little bit longer if necessary. We're very close to winning and could become very close to losing. Let's finish strong, gang.

I'll give it a few minutes at least.

Does the day end exactly at 11:00 PM EST?

Dizzy's not going to know what to do.

Marmot wrote:Are you done lynching my teammates yet?

See, now this is too relevant for dead talk. This actually bears the potential to influence the mindsets of people who are alive. Shoo, rodent!

Strawhenge, could you verify that your role doesn't apply to you dying via lynch?

Also, for my night phase bouncer squad: no need to protect me on Night 6. They can't kill me anyway.

If it makes anyone feel better: I've only seen one demo-man type role with the ability to detonate more than once (tee hee hi Sloonei) in all of my years of Mafia. Typically it's a one-time thing in my experience.

No idea if that reflects sprityo's experience or design.

juliets wrote:Also, the reason I asked about the UNVOTE is my computer keeps wanting to change it to "INVITE" and I have to send time trying to make it UNVOTE. If time is of the essence like it was the other night it becomes a problem. Though tonight it looks like there probably won't be any last minute changes.

Perhaps in the future you could try "change vote" as an alternative.

No pressure. I was mostly kidding.

Everyone's leaving! Fredwood is the patsy! They're setting him up to die while they are away!

You're right, Dizzy still has a vote on Fred. So that's it right now.

I'd recommend using "unvote" to change your vote, it just ensures everything is clear. As in:

*unvote*

*vote whoever*

Probably doesn't matter though.

I believe the tally is currently empty. I'll verify.

Regarding the discussion of the hypothetical last mafioso:

What reason do we have, in this game thread, to assume there isn't one? That 6 sounds like a lot? Does that actually mean anything? I don't see how it does. It isn't evidence. It's nothing. It's an assumption.

What reason do we have, in this game thread, to think there might still be one? Scotty is dead. Conclusive, hard evidence.

Is there a marker? Clearly yes. Is the marker anti-town? That requires assumption; I assume yes. There isn't conclusive evidence.

No matter how we approach this scenario we are forced to make some assumptions given the data in front of us. That's closed setup Mafia. If I had to place my vote in the next eight seconds, it would be for Fredwood.

MovingPictures07 wrote:This is the kind of stuff I don't understand. Why would you want to lynch anyone based on information they have claimed? Wouldn't mafia members be given logical fake claims? Why do we think the game can be solved this way?

I'm starting to think this is a waste of time.

In my experience, mafia members are not given fake role claims. They are often given fake character claims when there's a need for that in the flavor and structure, but not fake role claims. This means that in closed setups like this one, there is incentive and precedent for mafia members to make something up -- this was as common an occurrence as anything on RYM.

Certain claims fit better than others. The ones that don't appear to fit might have a greater chance of being falsified. It isn't foolproof, but it's a method that should be employed right next to behavioral analysis in the thread. That's how this works.

Sockys2016 wrote:I was under the impression that Straw's revenge kill only applies to his being night killed, not lynched.

Hahaha oh I have so many of these damn socks right now.

I'm feeling myself drawing back to the Fredwood/MP platform, with speedchuck as a backup suspect. If juliets is bad I have been thoroughly fooled and hats off to her. Strawhenge can be cased similarly to Fred, but he doesn't have the same focused marker dialogue that concerns me about Fred. I think there are valid angles with which Dizzy can be suspected, but it still feels more like tinfoil than like a reasoned argument.

I appreciate the effort, juliets. The point isn't to cover every single detail; it's to just throw some of the data into the thread and make immediate mental comparisons. It can help to sort out which cases are most worth pursuing in an environment like this where there's a lot of uncertainty.

Strawhenge: which of those felt the most convincing and which felt the least convincing? I don't count.

Strawhenge wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:Speed's claim is curious though. Bringing in Flavor into the actual role, as in giving names? I mean, it's certainly creative if it's a fake claim, but it seems almost too far out? I don't think any other role had descriptions that utilized flavor?

I do note that nobody has voiced significant trust for him since the claim, indicating that nobody is named Bellic -- or that Bellic doesn't remember their own name. Check your role PMs!

I see how that's of note, but that seems like a pretty intricate role to fakeclaim.

Also, didn't you say, 'Whoever is Bellic, don't indicate that you're Bellic'?

I said check with sprityo before claiming your character. The "flavorclaiming" rule/guideline is unclear. It ought not require a claim anyway though -- if there's a civilian out there named Bellic then I think it's a lot less likely speedchuck is mafia. Otherwise that role doesn't make sense to me. If he's faking it, either he made the name up or it's his own name.

Dyslexicon wrote:Speed's claim is curious though. Bringing in Flavor into the actual role, as in giving names? I mean, it's certainly creative if it's a fake claim, but it seems almost too far out? I don't think any other role had descriptions that utilized flavor?

I do note that nobody has voiced significant trust for him since the claim, indicating that nobody is named Bellic -- or that Bellic doesn't remember their own name. Check your role PMs!

Dyslexicon wrote:I still don't see bus driver as a normal town role though. I actually think I've never seen bus driver/switcher as town friendly. It's very common among 3p at my home site. I realize this is different, but still it's a thing for me.

I've seen it. I am pretty sure the HCR gang lives by it. I don't think it's a great role in town hands because it only causes confusion, but I've seen it.

Dyslexicon wrote:Straw having something that is every night is maybe susp. Most town roles seems to be x-shot, except bodyguard probably?

I had a similar thought, primarily because the people Strawhenge targets will experience nothing, and indeed nothing will happen with the role he has presented -- unless he is night killed. This is analogous to a marker marking every night; nothing happens until later.

Let's do an exercise, gang. List all of the remaining six players other than yourselves, and explain at least briefly two things:

1. Why is this player a civilian?

2. Why is this player not a civilian?

See what your brain spills out and gauge the degree of inspiration.

Soneji -- gunsmith and vest gifter

Silver Lantern -- vigilante and janitor

These are decently well opposed.

Dyslexicon -- vest giver or something

Strawhenge -- revenge killer

These are decently well opposed.

Dyslexicon wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:I really dislike the contradiction that Juliets pointed out, about Fred saying "what is a demo man" and then "I once customized a demo man". That is pretty bad. I also think Fred kind of skipped over that point in his answer, just brushing it off.

I want to ensure this isn't misconstrued further: I am the one who said I wrote a demo man role, not Fred. Fred later had a "so did I" which caused confusion, but he wasn't talking about that.

Oh. I didn't get that.

Btw, what do you think of MP and his relation to his own role? He claimed it, but on later day doesn't seem to understand it.

I don't understand it either, so

That's kind of the current frustration. There are civilians in this dialogue who have played or interpreted things in bizarre ways and it's making it very difficult to distinguish truth from untruth.

Dyslexicon wrote:I really dislike the contradiction that Juliets pointed out, about Fred saying "what is a demo man" and then "I once customized a demo man". That is pretty bad. I also think Fred kind of skipped over that point in his answer, just brushing it off.

I want to ensure this isn't misconstrued further: I am the one who said I wrote a demo man role, not Fred. Fred later had a "so did I" which caused confusion, but he wasn't talking about that.

Is the vest the only item you've handed out, Dizzy?

Theory: Dyslexicon played into the dialogue about numerous protective roles by claiming one himself -- it'd allow him to justify most targets he'd make. Those targets of his though are actually marks, and he blew up Golden and Quin.

juliets wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:The role claims

MovingPictures07 - Bus driver -- I don't think his information reconciles with Golden's, but Golden was also scum. So.

One thing about this issue. Golden has said many times - and I think he said it in this game - that he does not lie when bad unless absolutely necessary, I think because it's too easy to get caught in a lie. This makes me think he is telling the truth about his claim which leaves me unsure about MP. It doesn't seem like it would have been a necessity to lie.

If MP is also mafia though then there shouldn't be a discrepancy. It's so easy to just corroborate Golden's claim correctly. I don't understand.

The role claims

speedchuck - Double-voter is compatible with any alignment, so that doesn't help him. That he provided three character names though should be telling so long as someone here has a character named Bellic other than speedchuck himself.

Strawhenge - Revenge killer is definitely a convenient claim. It keeps him alive, though to his credit he didn't claim it until I pressured him. It'd be a little bit redundant next to Silver Lantern's role.

Fredwood - One shot seducer (commutes another player and gets one yes/no question). It's certainly a creative claim. It's only verifiable retrospectively though so that doesn't help. There are some problems with the claim relative to his behavior.

MovingPictures07 - Bus driver -- I don't think his information reconciles with Golden's, but Golden was also scum. So.

juliets - Unknown. She perceived some conflict with Quin's claim, asserting some degree of redundancy.

Dyslexicon: Unknown. They claimed to be protective. This might be at odds with juliets' semi-claim.

I want to lynch all of you.

I don't like Fredwood's discussions of what the marker would/should do under certain conditions. Those defenses are standard for a guilty player and even remind me of myself as Alfothad (GY!BE serial killer).

His role claim explanation sounds genuine though, so it's a difficult scenario.

Fredwood wrote:I lied and ruined my poetic sendoff, but I caught that at the end.

I know it's a one-shot, they don't know it's a one shot. Even if I say it's a one shot, how likely are they to believe me anyway?

So they kill you while you're vanilla and the active roles press on. That's a good thing!

At this point it's strategic critique which isn't the greatest determinant of alignment. So we'll see how I feel in the morning. Maybe I will solve the game in a dream and all of you will witness my great epiphany.

Fredwood wrote:Additionally, if I could have gotten him lynched without spilling everything it's a much better situation to be in, no more information is released to mafia then is needed.

But!

But but but... one shot!



I'll think over what you've said Fred. In any case thank you for dealing with my interrogation. I don't quite understand the way you've played it, but that doesn't mean you're dishonest. Sometimes civilians are the most confusing players there are. I'll see what others think.

Fredwood wrote:Also, I believe I was still concerned about info dumping being a modkillalbe offense, so I wasn't sure how to say I had information without saying I had information, so I kept bringing up his name as much as I could in order to get people to not forget about him.

?

By that point in the game, I had openly claimed tracker. Golden had openly claimed watcher. Silver Lantern had openly claimed vigilante. nutella had openly claimed one-shot day cop. What was there to be concerned about?

I'm less concerned about your voting behavior, Fred. What I'm trying to understand is why there is no real indicator in your posts on Day 4 that you knew Soneji was not a member of the town faction. That is a very significant claim you have made -- you literally knew through information derived from your role that Soneji was not to be trusted -- I'd expect that to show up in your posts. You needn't have necessarily claimed it outright, but it should have been very clear that you wanted to lynch Soneji and only Soneji. No other suspicion could have possibly contended with what you knew.

Especially in that final EOD sequence when Quin, Long Con, and Soneji were all under so much pressure and it became clear that one of them would die -- why didn't you do everything in your power to ensure it was Soneji who was lynched? You didn't have the same advantage of information about Quin or Long Con, so there's no feasible reason you could have been okay with lynching either of them when you knew the Soneji option would result in a non-town flip. Please just walk me through what you were doing there, because it isn't making sense to me.

Fredwood wrote:I'm a Seducer, once per game I can target a player that I lure back to my room, removing them from the game for that night. Additionally I could ask a yes or no question. I asked if Soneji was town and got a "no"

I seduced Soneji on N3 and asked if he was town, got a no. Why is why I was saying I wouldn't vote for anyone but Soneji on Day 4.

Let's put that to the test then. Your treatment of Soneji on Day 4:

Your two suspects are Soneji and Scotty

Soneji is red in your rainbow, alongside Scotty.

You thought we were giving Soneji a pass "because we learn nothing from his lynch"
You tallied the votes on Soneji, and none of them were your votes. You then said that last sentence, cautioning people against "jumping on Soneji" given the hammer situation.

More play-by-play announcing of the tally

Again "who even likes Soneji anyway"

After the day ended and Soneji was lynched:
You were present with 9 minutes prior to the deadline, and we all know Soneji was only hammered at the very last second by some quick work from MP and Dizzy. You had opportunities, particularly given the lynch was tied between Soneji and Quin for some time.

~~~

Most importantly, I don't see any moment where you declare that Soneji is the only vote you'd make, or where you cast severe and confident suspicion on Soneji, or you do anything to hint that you know based upon your night action that Soneji is not town. Show me what I am missing.

Fredwood wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Do you feel like you've been productive with the role you do have, Fred?

Considering it was a one shot that I used on scum with an even night power on an odd night...not likely.

If it's over with then is there anything to stop you from claiming it now? I don't recall seeing a claim from you.

Do you feel like you've been productive with the role you do have, Fred?