The Syndicate

Golden wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

MacDougall wrote:I found it amusing how Syndicate civs vociferously defended LC and them RYM civs did the same for me aside from Strawhenge who by golly I thought I could convince. Black Rock was ready to vote to save me literally asked in BTSC and I got called into a meeting 10 minutes before deadline and came back minutes after it haha. Wilgy convinced her not to bcuz plans or something.

It's official forever:

meta is bullshit

It netted you Bullzeye though.

And scumslips netted Floyd.

Scumslips are applicable to brand new people, but I don't want to hear about slips for players who've played Mafia for years. :P

I made one in gentlemans guide. I'd never made one before, lol.

I made a scumslip in RYM #88. (iirc only espers cared though and I got away )

Good game, everyone!

Diiny:

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 44#p180944

Oops, yeah, #84 was one I missed, thanks.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:For the all-beef patty:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:My concern is that you opened your aggression against Roxy more fervently than was sensible, potentially evidencing that you forced that aggression for the sake of appearance instead of reaction-generation. My assertion here is that you would have made a mistake. I'm not sure that's what happened. Is there an alternative explanation for your aggression beyond just generating reactions?

That doesn't go all the way though. In fact, it doesn't even check the necessary boxes. Diiny had already stated that he was trying to generate reactions, and when he replied to your question that he was doing just that (in addition to applying pressure), you were content to stop things there. He didn't really answer anything that he didn't already say to Roxy, so if I were in your shoes I would have been unsatisfied with his answer if you were looking for something new to begin with. When I say "go all the way", I don't just mean an explanation for what he did.

What Diiny said, and what you asked for, was: "I pressured Roxy to gauge a reaction"
What I would have wanted if I were in your shoes, and what I still would like, is: "I pressured Roxy to gauge a reaction, looking for specific reaction X to provide me a towntell or scumtell, and reaction X would give me the aforementioned tell because of reasoning Y"

Strawhenge wrote:Not necessarily. Especially in a game with this many players. We're looking at a 7-person scumteam. Someone could easily drop off the map and let their team handle things.

Fair enough. There was someone on the Frisky Dingo scumteam (Sabrefish?) that barely posted, but was placing night kills for scum, which wouldn't be very kosher on RYM at all. Here, maybe under-the-radar scum is a common thing. I get the feeling that TheFloyd isn't coming back, but we'll see.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:4. You haven't played here yet, so you might not know how the lynches can often develop. I saw Diiny's highly aggressive behavior and anticipated that the Syndicate regulars would not take kindly to it -- and that it could definitely get him lynched on Day 1. I had misgivings of my own about Diiny, but I didn't have a ton of conviction in that and saw myself as possibly the only force in the thread that might be able to slow the momentum against him (because the Syndicateers at least kind of know me at this point) if he could convince me that I should bother trying. So I literally pleaded with him to talk to me so I'd be able to make that decision. You might have observed later in the thread when I eventually made that decision -- that I wouldn't defend Diiny.

He didn't get lynched in the end, but he was a top candidate.

OK, I can agree that this explanation is reasonable and believable. It still doesn't change that you were spending a lot of time defending a player rather than scumhunting, which reminds me uncomfortably of your defense of Mungbean on #84. Not that you treated the two identically either; in that game it was more focused and direct, this time you played it both ways with things like asking Diiny to address points Roxy had made as well. However, from the POV that defending Diiny would prevent a slam-dunk and unproductive lynch against Diiny, I can see the pro-town rather than neutral aspect to it, so fair enough.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:This does not strike me as a statement of suspicion, but rather as a statement of disagreement. Whether I "got to the meat of the argument" or not (which is very subjective in this case), I still stated clear misgivings of Diiny's content.

I see the two as related. Heck, I just remembered #87 where you said you saw me as a top scumspect because you disagreed with virtually every point I had made early in that game. To me, if you already think Diiny is going about things wrong and looking bad from your own POV (nevermind how the Syndicaters would react), I would still want Diiny to very directly state what he was hoping to gain. If he couldn't provide a compelling argument for why he was going after Roxy in the way he had, then that would further bolster my suspicions that he was doing it for appearance or whatever else. You stated your misgivings but ultimately you let him get away with them.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I responded to sig's comment. Please assess and report back just the same. Why does it make you lean more town on Diiny?

Leaning town on Diiny more because of #84, and because I don't think you would let him off as easily if you were on the same team for risk of looking more connected.

Sorry, the color-coding is too intimidating to get to the rest of your post in this post, I'll respond to those next.

Jimmy, I'll get to you in a bit.

MacDougall wrote:Like, seriously can people stop saying TheFloyd is a town read? There's nothing more to that than foolishness.

I can understand having a gut feeling about people who've made posts, even just a few but when they are 2 low content posts you're joking if you can tell me you have any reason to actually consider them a town read.

What's your angle?

I didn't like Seaside saying it early in the game, but my reasoning at this point is that TheFloyd is a brand new player, and had participated barely enough to at least do something. If he was scum, I think he would have stuck it out a bit longer or at least been pressured by his scummates to replace out or something. Dropping off the map as an overwhelmed new player seems like a new-town thing to me.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

HamburgerBoy wrote:Oh, missed espers. Put him in the low light green or maybe the high yellow for now; he isn't pinging me as strongly as I'd expect him to, but going back and reading his posts, I find them generally agreeable.

Why do you expect espers to ping you?

I've only played a couple games with him, but he's not usually an under-the-radar/un-pingable player for me. It's not purely a matter of activity either; aokiji/motel is usually pretty active but I know in past games he's someone I have a hard time remembering or taking note of, so I try to not make a non-ping an automatic area for suspicion. Of course, #88 was a little more intimate starting the game with half the players dead, and of the living there were a bunch of lurkers, so maybe that's why espers was one of the more notable players that game.

Strawhenge wrote:Why so confident in sig?

He's giving me the same vibes I got from him in the Frisky Dingo game here, where he was town. Other Syndicaters, like DrWigly, have come out and said he's behaving within his usual town meta, and if I had listened to the ones that said the same about BWT (or had I played with him) I think I would have been better off. I am going to still put a fair bit of faith into the word of other Syndicaters, especially how it helped in getting scum-golden lynched that one recent RYM game. Plus, I agree with his point on JJJ mentioned just above, and sig was also Long Con's easy-button choice after getting off of Bea.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:What's your beef, Burgs?

The "slip up" thing involving sig was a red flag, especially from you. Felt like you found a weak spot in a player that was tired of a specific defense and then hammered on that. I know you already responded to espers regarding the same thing, and that you weren't around for some of the other things that came up near the end of the day, but then that leaves your position in the Diiny/Roxy affair for a significant portion of your posts, especially in the first half. It felt like you were forcing yourself in as middleman and peace-maker where it wasn't necessary, unless you already felt Diiny was town (and you stated otherwise anyways). I agreed earlier when you implied that Diiny's attempt at reaction gauging seemed fruitless the way he was going about it, but you didn't actually ask him specifically how his strategy was supposed to work, just that it was "more hardball than usual" and that you thought he was forcing something for appearance. That didn't get to the meat of the argument to me.

Also, worth noting that now I see sig actually called you out on it too, before you had even jumped on him. I don't necessarily agree with the full conclusion that it means you and Diiny were buddying, though; if anything I think it makes me lean more town on Diiny.

Oh, missed espers. Put him in the low light green or maybe the high yellow for now; he isn't pinging me as strongly as I'd expect him to, but going back and reading his posts, I find them generally agreeable.

I'll make a preliminary rainbow now actually since no one else has yet. Just five colors, and there are a lot of players (mostly Syndicaters) I still don't have a good grasp on yet that will be excluded.

sig
Sorsha
golden
bcornett24
Roxy
Metalmarsh89
Russtifinko
TheFloyd73
motel room/aokiji
Ricochet
Strawhenge
Diiny
MacDougall
Choutas
Bea
JaggedJimmyJay
Matt F
rundontwalk
Long Con
Seaside

Between that and his random town-read on TheFloyd (and his out-of-meta tons-of-questions day 0 stuff), I feel pretty strongly that Seaside is scum this game. It's worth noting that Seaside sometimes lets BTSC stuff leak out in the thread as well. For example, his scum game on RYM's #79 Inception Mafia, there was some specific theory the entire mafia team wanted to sell to help them in some way; I forgot the specifics, but this was the post, Seaside echoing aether (who was also scum that game). Of course, there's a bit of a difference between the Inception thing and some off-hand attempt to try and smear people on a mislynch, but since games here should require more focus on lynch tallies (with no roleclaiming allowed), I'll use it to put Zebra/vvlll under more scrutiny too.

Ricochet wrote:It's more a read than case, which is why it shows to you as "assorted facts".

I disagree that his RVS is that trivial, because of stuff I mentioned:

-- it was wildly unreasoned, by comparisong with most of the other RVS's
-- he later implied it achieved something and I have no idea what that is

The very first vote on aokiji/motel was, but at least on RYM that would be considered an obvious joke vote. In fact, it was your questioning of that vote that he used as saying it achieved something, that being to educate Syndicaters on the dark and mysterious voting rituals of day 1 RYM. It was basically his own type of "That's how I roll".

You didn't clarify the bolded part about his vote for BWT and why that means something to you.

Diiny wrote:And then I realised I wouldn't call Sorsha's vote a quiet wagon hop, either. I'm clearly too tired for this. I'm going to vote bwt to ensure I don't die, but just in case shit gets real in the next, like, hour and a half, I've just realised that everyone on my wagon hasn't played with me before, which explains a bit.

I'm not sure what the wagon hopping thing is about, but in all honesty it was seeing Sorsha's arguments above that made me go back and check out the LC/BWT/Bea thing more closely, so I'm the one hopping if anyone is.

Ricochet wrote:b24 - he made an RVS with no roots to the actual game, then came back saying this vote served its purpose to generate content, which to me still makes not much sense (the most content it actually generated was suspicions on him voting this way; the rest of the game's content cannot be said to have been achieved by this vote of his). Next couple of posts are reading Roxy's banter ways genuine (and familiar, as a style itself) and slightly insisting on questioning a few players who suspect Diiny. He dismisses Diiny's vote on him for being inactive by saying he's one of many, at that stage, to have contributed in low amount. Switches to voting BWT for him voting bea's disbelief in Day 1 suspicions generating something consistent. Frankly, his posts so far don't read like any clear input and it doesn't make me trust him.

I don't really know what bolded is supposed to indicate, could you explain what you mean by that and how it makes him look scummy? Your entire case on him there seems like assorted facts about him and what he's done, but aside from the early RVS thing (which I think is trivial at worst), I don't see how it all fits into a scum read.

Diiny wrote:Last, quick session before bed time that will probably end with me voting birdswithteeth to save myself even though I'm not sure how I feel about him. I'll make my thoughts on his case known before I sign off.

Burgy Boy, Baby, confirm for me why your vote's on birds, please.

1. I see sig as town and an easy mark, so bird switching from Bea to sig as he did looked suspicious
2. Long Con claimed to set up some kind of trap for people voting for Bea; while bird's reasons for voting for Bea were a little distinct, I wouldn't say completely so
3. Bird's lack of read on Long Con raised flags of avoidance, as does Long Con quickly dismissing his trap and bird's vote; thus I think there is something to learn from a lynch of one of the two regardless
4. This/reason from bcornett24 was a really good point imo
5. Or just read this quote pyramid, I agree with pretty much everything Sorsha is saying there

birdwithteeth11 wrote:How is my vote convenient? I stated reasons why I was suspicious of him. Do you not believe my reasons or what?

I'm also on my way out and might not be able to check in before the lynch ends. I'm going to vote sig since he's my top suspect right now. Hope can leave my vote there and don't have to switch it to save myself. If I do die though, I can definitely say I enjoyed my attempt to be zany and enjoyed this game and ton!

Prior to your vote for Bea, you had two posts that I see on sig: 1) that he was using some ambiguous verbs (you barely even make this out as a case against him) and 2) vagueness about caution flags and his first suspect. You get some points because you had at least had mentioned him as a suspect prior to changing your mind on Bea, but it's not that clear what you really had against him. Could you elaborate on those? I just don't understand your case. It makes it look like you're just going for an easy target.

I should have paid attention to the Long Con/bea/BWT corner earlier, this one seems to be juicier than the other cases so far. Long Con's supposed "gotcha" doesn't make any sense to me, I'd really like him to explain how it was supposed to trap anyone. I could have "fallen" for that trap tbh; I agree with it, actually, mentioning townspects but not scumspects can be another way to be non-committal but look like you're playing the game.

Additionally, while BWT did use a somewhat different argument, it didn't seem so distinct as to nullify any trap value. "Day 1 is random, pings are mild, who cares" is only a step worse than "Day 1 is random, pings are mild, just some townspects nothing more". His reply to motel/aokiji is especially suspect; considering that BWT certainly has some involvement in the dealings of LC, and how he just stated at least an opinion on LC's posts, to then cap it off with "Because I don't have much of a read on him right now" is really ringing non-committal scum bells for me. The vote on sig seems convenient too.

Switching to birdwithteeth11 for my vote.

If Long Con hadn't said he was setting a trap for people voting for Bea, I would have said he looked good to me. His vote on Bea reads more like an indirect way of getting her to name a scumspect, and that's the kind of directed pressure that works better than non-specific aggression. Always best to let scum hang themselves rather than force anything. Otherwise, what specifically would have made voting for Bea after you (Long Con) look scummy? Just bandwagon hopping? Cuz that seems to be what you're doing to sig right now.

motel room wrote:I hope a bit of friendly hostility isn't an alignment indicator over here.

It kinda seems to be at this point.

Choutas wrote:Indeed I am having extreme trouble assessing players I have never played with. There is no natural flair in my playing, post analysis has to be my weakest trait by far. I tend to use metas I do. Seaside doesn't have a distinct playstyle I think except typing the first thing that comes to his head. He didn't both reading the rules and he didn't understand that pretty much everybody is a role in this game so "Do you have a special power" is typical opening RYM move. That's how I saw it. Everybody on rym has done it once even for the sake of it. I tend not to take these posts seriously. It's just that some players like rdw will use those moves all game long. He once asked me that question on the endgame lol.

Sorry, I thought you were talking specifically about Seaside on not RYM in general. Fair enough, I think I get you now, but I think it makes Seaside looks bad because he's a RYMer that pretty much never does that afaik. As an rdw move, absolutely, sleepystalinist and others too, but not Seaside.

Sorsha wrote:

sig wrote:I think your trying to get me to respond in an attempt to make me slip up and get me lynched, and it really isn't my place to tell you who has been suspicious of me that would be like building the case for my own lynch a rather silly thing to do.

What raises my brows about this one is that you say “make me slip up” as opposed to “make me say something that could be considered a slip up.” I don’t think civvies slip up.

Does that kind of caveat even need to be said? The latter would be the obvious read into it; actually, legitimate scumslips are very rare on RYM, and I'd imagine they are here as well. After all, the matter of who accused sig is an open record for anyone wanting to find it; it was mostly Zebra. Maybe he was afraid to admit that it wasn't really multiple people prior to motel/aokiji's pressuring? Otherwise, the only way I see even the potential for a slip would be if sig is trying to distance from Zebra, in the event that Zebra bussed him. I think that's very unlikely and pretty suicidal though; if sig was lynched and flipped scum, no one is going to go "A-ha, Zebra did bus him!" just because he made a good read on a very early game vote.

Golden wrote:

HamburgerBoy wrote:Also, who in the hell is motel room?

Aokiji.

Danke.

Also, just for the record since aok motel's been asking, it does seem like sig's defensiveness is derived mostly from Zebra's initial suspicions post. And I won't deny that he is defensive; I am realizing that the Frisky Dingo game might not be a good reference since he seemed to avoid suspicion most of that game, and on the last day he didn't have a single vote on him. I still think his tone and behavior read as newer-defensive-town rather than newer-defensive-scum though. It seems kind of like the thing with Roxy again where he doesn't respond when pressured in the way a RYMer might be expected to, but he ends up looking worse because Roxy was pressured over off topic content (which is basically null) vs sig being pressured for very game-related content. That sig is willing to provide comments/reads on most of the goings-on is another towntell for me, however.

Also, who in the hell is motel room?

Regarding Sig, I don't see him as much different this game from his town Frisky Dingo game. His playstyle seems kind of wish-washy on the surface of it, pointing out things that could be scummy but maybe not, adding caveats heavily, but that's not inherently a scumtell. I'd say bcornett24 actually fits that general style in his town games, discussing a lot and then being exploited by more aggressive and experienced players. Since Sig seemingly is a newer player to this place, and since I only have his one previous town game to compare to, I'm going to call him as town, and I will vote Diiny to protect him if necessary/if nothing else comes up. JJJ taking issue with "slip up" looks worse to me than anything sig has said tbh.

Choutas wrote:I was describing rym behaviours to syndicators. Including Seaside's question to it. I have no idea what you're trying to prove tbh. Seaside is suss to you?

I'm saying that your view on Seaside's meta (which I can't validate since I didn't see/don't remember his posts in the pre-game poll) doesn't remotely match how I see Seaside. That raises suspicions on both you and Seaside, actually. Others like MacDougall have already commented that you're apparently a very meta-based/character-reading guy, and based on my experience with you in RYM #87, I would probably agree with that. I'd disagree strongly that you were the weakest player in that game, actually, since your read on aether independent to my own exactly matched mine; a lot of my case against her was simply in your read as an impartial source to validate my own.

I'd still like explanation from Seaside on what you've said he has done, as well as the "Floyd is town" thing which now MacDougall has also brought up.

I just realized, can we not edit posts on this board? Makes sense for a mafia board, just want to make sure if in the future I find myself double/triple/etc posting heavily where an edit could suffice.

Leaving my vote on Seaside for now until he clarifies the two things I mentioned. I also just read over the argument between Diiny and JJJ a few times because the first time I almost made a mistake and misattributed something to JJJ. I agree with his point that what Diiny did could have gone beyond what could caused a reasonably worthwhile reaction from Roxy. I didn't see Diiny asked it in this exact way though so to make things clearer: what specifically were you expecting to gain as a reaction? As in, what kind of reaction would have provided what kind of view on her alignment? Your beef with Roxy was entirely based on posting style; if this was RYM and you made that kind of argument with a regular there, it would make sense that a reaction could show a change in behavior inconsistent with meta. For Roxy, though, you have no idea what her meta is and no idea what a reaction would tell of her alignment. After all, some town players actually end up looking worse when pressured the wrong way.

Also

seaside wrote:3. Floyd is a huge town read.

Why? He's said almost nothing.

Choutas wrote:He tried the regular rym opening move. Some of them are "Are you scum?", "Do you have a special ability", "You're town?". In the earlier games it was pretty wild "Tell me your role", "Give me a reason not to shoot you today" etc. Seaside is old school. He's still listening to 2Pac and Biggie while you guys have moved to Nicki and Kanye.

Unfortunately I didn't pay much attention to the day 0 poll, but if this is accurate it's unusual to me. My first game with Seaside was probably in the early 70s, so you might have a different experience with him, but I don't think of his as a proactive player questioning players. What you're describing sounds more like rdw's meta or something. Sus to me.

I know the Roxy vs Diiny thing has already been thoroughly done by now, but I'll just add my piece and say that Roxy is playing pretty much exactly how I remember her (town) in the Frisky Dingo game, a bit of banter and dismissive when called out on it. While I could see Diiny coming in aggressively and head-on into conflict even in light of his last game (which he already mentioned getting lynched for day 1 over, i.e. meta-forcing), I don't know if he'd risk it in new territory against new players that may not be as receptive. Consider it a town lean on read on Roxy, null on Diiny for now.

Can't be me.