The Syndicate

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Bullzeye wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

Bullzeye wrote:

S~V~S wrote:That was me. It was just a shits & Giggles thing. Sorry,I was just trying to send people on wild goose chases becasue chaos. It was random and had nothing to do with whatever happened up there, or your eventual death. That was a coincidence.

Okay. I assumed it was the Circle trying to lure people into a trap, since it lead to the square where I died as Yang and got locked into an essentially vanilla civ role. If I'd died as Yin I'd have become a baddie, and that would've been an acceptable result of losing one of my two map avatars and fun indy condition. I was quite upset when I died (both times!) but I'll live! This was still a great game and I tried to make the most of my unfortunate situation. The night I died for good I'd decided to try to find a way to rezz Yang and had been going around for a while hoping to find something to help me get revenge against the Circle. If I'd been alive towards the end I'd have been up for helping your side out.

I wish we could have just made a little rag tag duo and roamed around together. That would have been fun.

That would've been awesome but you wanted to go back to where I'd already been, IIRC, and I wanted to keep exploring to find new things and help in my own personal quests. You were actually the only person I was ever completely honest with about my role. I never told anyone else about how I could've become a baddie. I did love how you were all "you'll never believe me but I'm actually a secret role that isn't listed" when I had known since the game began that there must be at least one unlisted role in the game. I decided you were telling the truth and that you must be trustworthy. I dunno if it was obvious but the info you sent me on Matt said he was a civ, I was never sure how to communicate that to you since we only had a code for baddie.

Yep. I knew it. I told everyone about that and your code. I figured by your silence that it came back that way. I dunno if the rest did, but it didn't matter anyway because the civs alive at the end weren't in the chat.

Yes Matt, Bullzeye and I both knew you were a civ. They killed me before I could use the info in any meaningful way.

And nah I got sucked away mid conversation.

Oh and HamburgerBoy got scum confirmation on juliets through my role as well... Pity I sent it to another bad guy.

Bullzeye wrote:

S~V~S wrote:That was me. It was just a shits & Giggles thing. Sorry,I was just trying to send people on wild goose chases becasue chaos. It was random and had nothing to do with whatever happened up there, or your eventual death. That was a coincidence.

Okay. I assumed it was the Circle trying to lure people into a trap, since it lead to the square where I died as Yang and got locked into an essentially vanilla civ role. If I'd died as Yin I'd have become a baddie, and that would've been an acceptable result of losing one of my two map avatars and fun indy condition. I was quite upset when I died (both times!) but I'll live! This was still a great game and I tried to make the most of my unfortunate situation. The night I died for good I'd decided to try to find a way to rezz Yang and had been going around for a while hoping to find something to help me get revenge against the Circle. If I'd been alive towards the end I'd have been up for helping your side out.

I wish we could have just made a little rag tag duo and roamed around together. That would have been fun.

Ricochet wrote:My commiserations for the Golden bullsuit victims. When will we ever get this guy.

Also, this must be the third or fourth time I'm seeing aggressive, gnarly Dom = baddie Dom. Never letting go of this meta, that's for sure.

Congrats everyone. I didn't follow or understand much, but this looked very intense.

Noted. Changing my vote in the other game lol.

Jks.

Yeah me too I suppose. I did tell a whole bunch of randoms my role for no reason.

Sorsha wrote:

MacDougall wrote:That they could have. That they could have.

No, the way I see it is you circle lot played way good and deserve the win more than most I've seen get it. Except Golden. He's a stinky traitorous swine.

I was kind of upset that you didn't get to try your buddy up to Timmer idea. Once you posted it in the chat I copy and pasted it in our Circle chat.... we had a good laugh

I was upset when Metalmarsh killed me for no reason. I was especially upset when I found out at end game that Golden was recruited and won the game after playing most of it as a civilian lie detector and mistakenly revealing everything he knew to scum players from both teams.

Forgive me for having the hurt butts.

Draconus wrote:My heart. It is broken
GG to everyone, though. Especially Golden. I held it as a possibility in the back of my mind but didn't want to believe it. Realistically, civs lost that game a long time ago. But I'm proud to have made it that far as one of the good guys. It's never happened for me before, not even close.

Thank you to Long Con for putting together another awesome game full of well written posts and incredible characters! I had a great time

Especially Golden!?

Golden got recruited after he revealed all his civ gained info to both teams lol. He's a butthole.

I mean, Golden is responsible for me being dead ultimately. Dragging me into his ill advised hornets nest, exposing me to supposed confirmed doers of good of which 3 turned out bad and one of which killed me and then getting recruited after all his fuckery to coast to a win as a bad guy.

Golden you absolutely suck. I will pay you back for this.

That they could have. That they could have.

No, the way I see it is you circle lot played way good and deserve the win more than most I've seen get it. Except Golden. He's a stinky traitorous swine.

Golden wrote:

MacDougall wrote:but man he deserves to lose this game as a civ so bad.

Lucky I deserve to win it as circle, then, eh! I loved SVS post towards the end 'if its draco or splints, they deserve an oscar'.

The fact she didn't even mention me...

It was impossible to suspect you because you played 3/4 of it as a civilian supatown gatherer of intel. You're a traitorous swine. After all the effort you put in for the civs you should have mod-killed yourself when you were recruited you traitor.

timmer wrote:

Epignosis wrote:
timmer was such a fail in chat that I knew he was bad. I was hoping sig and I would just pass by without much fuss.

Let's be clear, here. I was, hands down, the weak link in this baddie team. This isn't a poor me thing, I'm not looking for pity or reassurance lol, but I definitely felt the time constraints of my job and my family weighing on me, and my participation was atrocious. I'm on hiatus indefinitely now because of it, other than maybe the Game of Champions whenever that happens. I did what I could, but really, about half of the game was me coasting while using the tribunal to survive. It is what it is, but yeah, I wasn't exactly a supaciv!

Your existence distracted everyone from the reality of what was happening.

The fact that Golden survived that last night kill ... Had he died, the two civs would have lynched SVS with Dom. Dom would have killed one. What would have happened? Circle still wins that way right?

Dom wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

Dom wrote:

MacDougall wrote:Hey Dom were unrecruited when I was tunneling you or had you been recruited by then?

I wasn't. I was all alone, waiting for someone to find me.

Lol sorry then. What day did you get recruited?

Night 7.

Lol like the night after the day we had a huge run in. Yeah my bad.

Dom wrote:

MacDougall wrote:Hey Dom were unrecruited when I was tunneling you or had you been recruited by then?

I wasn't. I was all alone, waiting for someone to find me.

Lol sorry then. What day did you get recruited?

For the one or two players who somehow are unaware I was the secret role at the bottom of that post.

Hey Dom were unrecruited when I was tunneling you or had you been recruited by then?

Long Con wrote:fingersplints' Scintillating Beacon only shone a light into the sky that anyone could see. It was S~V~S, the Trickster, who set the trap that destroyed the Summoning Circle and scattered the New Civ Alliance.

fingersplints' final act in the game was to arrive at the square that the Scintillating Beacon randomly landed on after the explosion, and picked it up again.

SVS OMGUSing me to the bitter end lol.

HamburgerBoy wrote:Thanks team, other players, and especially Long Con/Black Rock for the awesome game! This was my first scum game where I really felt like everyone was actively scheming their hardest behind the scenes, and there were lots of amazing moves and things that happened. Sorsha especially was the MVP for a lot of what let Circle win; I never would have been able to recruit golden if she hadn't been working with him and getting him to reveal his planned movements in the thread, for example.

Fun too working with you while it lasted, Mac.

You guys definitely had a good team!

Hell like I said I ain't even mad at you guys, you didn't kill me lol.

Also who the fuck blew up the summoning circle with me on it?

Whyyyy I was like the most benign player. I had nothing lol.

Sorsha wrote:

MacDougall wrote:Golden managed to have a baddie from both teams there claiming they were confirmed good, and one of them brought their puppy with them.



And he gets recruited and gets to win the game.

We were making fun of golden and his LD skills quite a bit before we recruited him

I can see why you'd recruit him, but man he deserves to lose this game as a civ so bad.

WTF is with you recruiting so many damn players and Turnip Head coming back to life and shit.

And here's little old MacDougall accidentally dragged into your hive of horror by Golden with nothing but my 1 shot unlynchable... sheeeeeeeeeeesh.

Marsh, SVS why the hell did you kill me!?

Golden managed to have a baddie from both teams there claiming they were confirmed good, and one of them brought their puppy with them.



And he gets recruited and gets to win the game.

Sorsha wrote:

MacDougall wrote:I can't even begin to figure out how this even begins to make sense. Dom, Golden, Sorsha, HB... teammates. Wow. HamburgerBoy of all people...

Golden was recruited by us when HB died. So at the time of the gathering in G9 golden was still a civ.

Well that's just fucked up ...

I don't believe I stood a chance of surviving. But I'm glad the winners weren't the team that killed me hahaha.

Yeah I would play this whole setup again in a heart beat. Best game ever.

I can't even begin to figure out how this even begins to make sense. Dom, Golden, Sorsha, HB... teammates. Wow. HamburgerBoy of all people...

Wow. That's really damn good. Lost for words really.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa fucking whoa.

Golden, sorsha and HamburgerBoy!?

Get fucked that'll do me. That's brilliant. Well done guys.

Oh man that sucks! My heart.

Could also be a pre-determined game mechanism that that particular even was to occur after a certain amount of time, or as a result of a certain event being trigger.

Could also be an on the fly adjustment made by the mods to maintain game balance.

Apologies.

LoRab wrote:That you said forumula implies definitive, as that is a mathematical term.

Even so, I continue to disagree with your general principle that baddies tend to do various things--or at least strongly disagree with those things that you seem to think baddies do. There are some baddie riffs that are repeated in posts--but they tend to be behavioral in a way that is conveyed through tone and in posts.

Again, I have the advantage of knowing that anything you think of my posting as being a 90% chance that I'm bad, I know that you're entirely wrong. And since you base that on what you consider baddie behaviors, yeah, I disagree with you.

Based on the games that I've played, I firmly believe that it is through reading posts and analyizing reactions that one learns the most about other players. I realize that there is also a mater of The Maths in terms of probability and what numbers of players there may be. I don't think that there are forumulae, as you suggest.

And if you were not trying to sound condescending, then I suggest examining your wording. Your post certainly sounded that way. Perhaps because of "as if that's not actually true," which implies that any experienced mafia player would know that.

Come on now we've both been snarky to each other. It comes with the territory.

Anyway if your argument to my points is "I know you're wrong about me so that means you're wrong about others" then I guess ditto.

S~V~S wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

LoRab wrote: It's so sweet that you think that there are definitive forumulae as to how baddies act. While I agree that Dr W is bad, it's not for the same reasons. But, go along.

... the part where you sarcastically say it's sweet that I think there are definitive formulae, as though that's not actually true. There are repeat behaviours scum exhibit all the time, do you agree? Ignoring scum teammates or over focusing on them to the detriment of sense and reason. Late game ISOs exhibiting a lack of actual scum hunting effort in a voluminous ISO. There are dozens of behaviours scum players largely exhibit. Talented scum players know them and get around them.

LoRab can you address this. Do you genuinely believe there aren't?

I tend to believe that your position is an over simplification, and that there is no definitive formula. In games like they have at most other sites, the setups are more formulaic~ this limits the options baddies have as well as their strategies. Our all role madness games with varying levels of secrecy, resurrections, manipulations, secret roles & recruitment possibilities that we build into our games make the options richer & more varied. We are spoiled by sophisticated set ups and expect it of our hosts. I have been playing for over 6 years now and I see things from baddies I have never seen before in most games. And when she played more, Lorab was often the one to do those things.

I would not condescend to her if I were you. Just a word to the wise

I wasn't condescending her. I was asking. Perhaps the issue is on the word definitive. I never really claimed there were "definitive formulae" I am just analysing the game from the perspective of there being ways to catch scum that are beyond looking just at their posts.

LoRab wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

LoRab wrote: It's so sweet that you think that there are definitive forumulae as to how baddies act. While I agree that Dr W is bad, it's not for the same reasons. But, go along.

... the part where you sarcastically say it's sweet that I think there are definitive formulae, as though that's not actually true. There are repeat behaviours scum exhibit all the time, do you agree? Ignoring scum teammates or over focusing on them to the detriment of sense and reason. Late game ISOs exhibiting a lack of actual scum hunting effort in a voluminous ISO. There are dozens of behaviours scum players largely exhibit. Talented scum players know them and get around them.

LoRab can you address this. Do you genuinely believe there aren't?

Sorry. Just got up.

I do not agree.

Mafia would be a much different game and, to me, less interesting if there were definitive formulae.

I think there are sometimes patterns, but that it depends much more on the individual in a baddie role than baddies in general. Talented baddies may or may not know what their personal tells are and may or may not be able to avoid them.

Sure, there are some tendencies of baddies, but not everyone exhibits them and a lot of them are things that civvies do just as much. I also think a or if it is dependent on role.

I also think svs brings up a good point about the fact that the game structures we are used to make it a different game in some ways and one in which rules like that don't apply.

And I've been looking for baddies. Maybe not the same way as you do, but I have been looking for baddies.

I could also argue that your random naming of people also isn't baddie hunting. And that your formulae are clearly flawed because I know you are wrong about means I think you are wrong about others.

Hmmm. You're the one who said definitive in the first place. Formulae/patterns, it's splitting hairs on words. I think there are patterns that are displayed and tbh I never really even said that it was something baddies display game to game.

For instance the post I made about in thread references to Floyd isn't a "definitive formulae", it's a pattern I think might uncover something because of the outcomes that are occurring in this game only.

MacDougall wrote:

LoRab wrote: It's so sweet that you think that there are definitive forumulae as to how baddies act. While I agree that Dr W is bad, it's not for the same reasons. But, go along.

... the part where you sarcastically say it's sweet that I think there are definitive formulae, as though that's not actually true. There are repeat behaviours scum exhibit all the time, do you agree? Ignoring scum teammates or over focusing on them to the detriment of sense and reason. Late game ISOs exhibiting a lack of actual scum hunting effort in a voluminous ISO. There are dozens of behaviours scum players largely exhibit. Talented scum players know them and get around them.

LoRab can you address this. Do you genuinely believe there aren't?

Bullzeye wrote:

MacDougall wrote:Okay Bullzeye you're adequately defended who do you think is scum?

I wouldn't mind a Floyd lynch, and may vote that way myself. Also had some minor suspicion of splints earlier on that I think maybe I should revisit. I'm probably up all night watching Desert Bus so I have time to look at both of them and others I might be inclined to eyeball.

Would very much appreciate this.

I have a question...

The Trickster role can make someone appear as a role of their choice when they die. Does that include that roles alignment or would their alignment show correctly if they are lynched?

As for the poll it's Pixie and it's a no brainer. I don't think there's much doubt about the alignment of the Puppet Master and I couldn't care less about the others. I want to know if these fucking notes being left everywhere have malicious intent.

fingersplints wrote:

MacDougall wrote:Hmm...

I'm starting to get rather concerned about the Circle of Decay. Especially because of their choice of most recent night kill... What the hell was there to gain from killing DFaraday?

Low posting, and blendy. No real ties to any player. I know when I am a baddie I like to kill players like dfaraday (and myself ) early. I feel like I have said many times things like this, so it also could have been to make me look worse. (If they know me well)

Yeah but it's not early. It's getting to crucial mid game and there are definitely other players I would be taking a shot at over DFaraday at this point if I was scum trying to win the game. Especially since Faraday had a huge gap in the middle of his ISO and when he came back he was pretty much a horndog for getting Floyd lynched, who it turns out was on the opposing scum team to those that killed him?

Do we have any dead Circle of Decay that are confirmed as such? I think Typhoony is really the only one possible? I do have reason to believe that he was a bad guy and I suppose he did go after juliets, so that'd put him on the Circle...

Aight going by the assumption that Typh was Circle and ISOing him.

Hmm...

I'm starting to get rather concerned about the Circle of Decay. Especially because of their choice of most recent night kill... What the hell was there to gain from killing DFaraday?

Excellent work again, surprised he was on Witherdeath though.

The only dead player with a fair amount of content that we know for sure to be civ, is Banana and we can't take that to mean anything.

Holy shit our lynches have been solid as fuck when they've actually gone through. Only one mislynched civvie. The 2 players that avoided their lynches (sig and myself) I don't believe sig was bad and I'm certainly not so we somehow avoided two of them. The rest are indy, scum, indy, scum. Pretty solid lynches.

juliets, who I believe is on the opposing team of Floyd. Has a 10.5% ISO of Floyd related content for reference.

Okay so I think it's fair to say that there are three players in the game so far that have attracted the most negative attention. That would be myself, juliets and Floyd. If you disagree speak up.

Now in the case of myself, I have been loud in the thread. I have given lots of thread content for people to discuss. This means that there has been plenty of opportunity for genuine and non genuine cases and discussion about me. Discussion about me has largely taken place WITH me, so it would be easy for someone interested in finding out if I were scum, or trying to paint me as scum, to build up a reasonably large portion of the ISO as posts about me. I don't think there is much to gain from looking at the volumes of interaction with me from players.

Floyd, has not been very loud at all despite attracting a lot of attention. This means there hasn't really been much chance to interact with him and build cases, genuine or non genuine. Discussion about Floyd has largely taken place between other people, not inclusive of Floyd.

Juliets falls somewhere in the middle, but is the only one who is confirmed dead scum. She posted a bit in the thread, but didn't engage in much genuine scum hunting or discourse. She didn't push back on cases so most discussion about juliets was made between other players. Putting her a little bit more like Floyd.

My hypothesis goes as follows;

If Floyd is scum, he has not posted much in the thread at all when it comes to content capable of being analysed, yet there has been plenty of discussion about him in the thread. Discussion on the subject of Floyd, and genuine analysis of whether he is scum has occurred between other players about things that occurred in lieu of thread content. It is a very civ look as he has been a harder nut to crack open than myself, marginally harder than juliets. It's something that people with genuine interest in scum hunting would have been openly discussing for days and days. So the numbers of references to Floyd from interested civ players would be a high percentage of their ISO.

He has never dominated the discussion to the level of juliets or myself, but he has been close to being there, so a teammate would have to commit heavily to coming across genuine in lieu of content to go by because as shown today it hasn't taken much catalyst to start the ball rolling on finishing his lynch. This really doesn't matter whether he is civ or scum, I feel like he has been the type of subject that scum players would steer away from due to them being easily pinned as either being responsible for mislynching him, or being responsible for having him lynched when he did not have to be unless they were cautious as all hell. And why bother with that when there has been juliets and MacDougall dominating discussions all game long?!

tl;dr Scum would not be talking about Floyd in the thread if he's civ. Scum TEAMMATES would not be talking about Floyd in the thread if he's scum.

So for the findings...

Percentage
Bass 0
DrWilgy 2.6
LoRab 3
Golden 4.2
Metalmarsh 5
Turnip Head 6.5
SVS 7.1
Bullzeye 9
HamburgerBoy 9.5
MacDougall 9.8
MattF 10.7
timmer 13.2
Dom 14
Fingersplints 14
Sorsha 16.1
Draconus 16.3
tranq 30.4

In order of least mentioned to most. Bass has only had 29 posts so it's possible he just hasn't been active enough in the game to have bothered yet, but it's still a bad look. Wilgy and LoRab are far and away the worst looks on the subject of Floyd. If he flips scum, they are huge chances to be teammates. I would also go as far as suggesting that the huge number tranq has hit on the subject indicating he has had tunneled him hard indicates what it looks like when a scum player identifies another scum player and tunnels hard on him. Holy shit I have a genuine scum read as scum, I'm going to smash it hard! Know what I mean? Golden's number is also strangely low.

I don't think he'll flip civ either. There are too many players with good percentages of discussion on him.

LoRab wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

LoRab wrote:I actually find floyd more suspicious with his desire to be replaced. I feel like a newer player who was civ would go with the flow and argue that they weren't bad, but a baddie is more likely to not know how to defend, and steps out. I would consider changing a vote there.

This one single post is the entire extent of LoRab's ISO referring to Floyd.

Yes, I hadn't read him carefully earlier, and even having read him now, I don't see much either way. This itself struck me as suspicioius. So I pointed it out.

He has not been, nor does he continue to be, one of the players I'm most concerned about. What the crowd is doing isn't interestig to me, but isn't how I make decisions. Never has been. Yeah, I know, it makes me hard to read. And you're probably going to say it reads suspish to you. Well, it's you, so you're probably going to say it's scummy--I'm not used to playing with people who use that language, so it's not my default for examples. And I'm still getting used to reading it without cringing.

I'm sorry if I didn't find other things supicious earlier to fit into your little box of what people are supposed to do. I don't tend to fit into little boxes.

linkitis: It's so sweet that you think that there are definitive forumulae as to how baddies act. While I agree that Dr W is bad, it's not for the same reasons. But, go along.

You seem more interested in talking about me and/or defending yourself than actually doing much in the way of genuine scum hunting. I believe it's because it's the only genuine analysis you've really invested yourself in. Like this post is really just designed to sarcastically belittle me for instance. You probably think I'm scum on the other scum team genuinely. Which is unfortunately for you, incorrect.

So much of this post is just hyperbole designed to ensure that the points I'm raising are viewed as irrelevant. I'm trying to "fit you into a little box", the part where you sarcastically say it's sweet that I think there are definitive formulae, as though that's not actually true. There are repeat behaviours scum exhibit all the time, do you agree? Ignoring scum teammates or over focusing on them to the detriment of sense and reason. Late game ISOs exhibiting a lack of actual scum hunting effort in a voluminous ISO. There are dozens of behaviours scum players largely exhibit. Talented scum players know them and get around them.

LoRab wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

Elohcin wrote:

Golden wrote:Friends may stick together, but don't forget that you might be on different sides in this game.

And that there is no illegal BTSC. 'Cause them both coming in like that is a little suspicious.

Okay I apologise but this needs addressing.

Team Floyd pop in reacting to each others interactions and are only online at the same time.

I see three possibilities.

1. Illegal BTSC
2. Floyd is using alts
3. Flod was given a role by Long Con that involves him posting with two dummy accounts as part of role flavour

I would like to believe it's the third because that would be awesome.

Unfortunately none of the three possibilities indicate alignment. The only reason I am entertaining option 3 is because I have played a role just like it and happened to link the thread in the Talking Heads game to it which may or may not have given LC a last minute idea.

I cannot see how they could be coordinating post timing if they aren't communicating outside the thread.

1 Is possible, but likely inadvertent and not realizing what illegal BTSC is.
2 As in he signed up for the game with multiple accounts? I can't imagine someone doing that on a friendly forum--and if there was suspicion of such, I'm sure the mods will do something about that.
3 That does not seem likely, as LC asked who they were in the sign up thread.

And you miss the other possibility, that they have BTSC in the game. While Golden throws that out as not likely, I'm not so sure. Occam's Razor and all.

Apologies, this is also something you said. Just for the sake of displaying my noble integrity.