The Syndicate

13 vs 4 is fine enough as a ratio. For a long while in Bulba we considered 12 vs 4 balanced enough. It was the extra kill power that is a problem; 1-shot mafia vigs, town vigs that don’t shoot correctly… any and all extra scum kill power was removed, with all the vigs becoming strongmen instead.

Did you actually use Chatzy as the mafia chat for the entire game? Wow, I’d find that really bothersome, because I’m used to Bulba/MU private threads (Bulba private threads are the XenForo way of doing PMs which is seriously convenient) and QTs when Bulba was still on vBulletin.

Marco wrote:Private threads would be great, but mafia is just a small part of the website I come from and some of the higher staff like to keep us on a tight leash, so we don't have any such options. QT's are the perfect alternative. They're really convenient for role madness games as there's so many abilities, players, roles, gambits, etc to keep track of.

Can't agree more, I can relate to the higher staff part a lot. I even use QTs as notepads when hosting.
At least we got "conversations" which are PMs in XenForo software and look like threads, that's good enough stuff.

On our board, 20 player games are considered small and there're usually 2-3 60+ player games each year (average game size is around 25-30 players, and the preferable size is generally ~40). And most mafia teams usually have each member with 2-3 abilties with a Godfather (and maybe Backup) having 4-5. And a lot of games go beyond this. So you can see how chatrooms would be a big inconvenience.

I can't really relate to this, though, 20 player games are considered pretty big for us. 2-3 abilities with GF is commonplace for our role madness games as well, though. And if you think chat rooms are inconvenient in big scum teams... have you checked the MU mashes? 85-man, 57-man... scum teams of 15-21 people using SKYPE. There's some madness

Well, the mafia JOAT was THE single most unbalanced mafia role, no wonder it got cut.
thankfully there was enough time for said cuts to be made.

So the MVP wolf was helping us feel better for our games as well as trying to dumb our meta down so that we look better in the Champs... lol, thanks?

Actually, the Matrix12 setup used in the Championship was changed, scum was pretty much nerfed because the one we played is considered very pro-scum (my sample of 2 games that were both scum wins may or may not be able to prove that :P)
In this new Matrix12, scum always know what setup they are in as soon as Day 1, so there won't be a situation like "maybe the Mason or the Jailkeeper setup" in the champs...

MovingPictures07 wrote:Thanks, Zexy! Looking forward to playing with you on Bulbagarden and cheering you on in Game 4!

I killed Zexy partially because I wasn't sure whether the setup was 3 or F just yet, and I strongly suspected you two were Town Masons if we were in Setup 3.

You are welcome! It's really awesome I'm in the same game with Golden.

Wow! I died and felt sad because I thought the town vig killed me for inactivity... but actually getting a kill when that inactive is quite the feat, the best I could've done as an inactive VT with not-so-good reads, at least. I'm feeling a bit more comfortable about this game despite its outcome now

Congrats, wolves!
MP MVP :P
haven't seen a more active wolf ever

ika... never really got to read that one. sig looked slightly bad by the time I died, I doubt I would push them anytime soon after my death. IAWY was pushed when I was trying to skim through the thread with kinda unsatisfying results

I still believe the actual Championship game will probably be less active than this one, I also promise I'll be more active there than I was here.
guess I was vig'd, shame and sorry... who was the vig, actually?

and well, all 4 representatives were town and now look quite bad over this loss
still, I think we can and will be redeemed

I'm in the same game as Golden, actually! Marco's begun, good luck Marco!
see you in the game, Golden, let's try our very best there!

PS: sorry I brought Psittaciform along :P :P :P

Dyslexicon wrote:Now is the time to CFD Soneji!

VOTE SONEJI

Why?

btw who is Matt and who did he replace?
oh, hi Matt

Marco wrote:It should be noted that zexy has not really been engaging in the game since after the first half of day 1. I'm still waiting on those ISO reads he promised around 72 hours ago.

You probs missed the RL part in the meantime

Marco wrote:I've been suspecting zexy since day 1. He never even answered me how my posts were "scum motivated" "one liners" with "no thought behind them" just a few hours after leaning town on me.

Have you made those one-liners before those few hours.
Why would scum me flip a read on you early d1 when the chances you would be a wagon where almost 0?

Dyslexicon wrote:Conspiracy theory over analyzing activated:

Zexy wrote:Ignore the parts about Silverwolf and Long Con/Epignosis, I guess.

More later...

So Zexy says this after his catch up, implying that he wasn't aware of who had died yet. This would implicate that he is town.

However in the catch up I find examples that he uses present tense when he's talking about people alive - here's some examples:

Zexy wrote:Dizzy trying to push the zebra wagon after it deflated is weird. Unless he is scum with the top wagon of the time (MM) I don’t understand why scum would do that…

Actually, I said that I’ll ISO Wilgy but MP already did it for me. I agree that there is something scummish about him, also I don’t know Wilgy meta as much as MP does so I’ll trust him. Actually, were it not for Wilgy quirky meta, I would get a bigger scumread than what I currently have.

But past tense when he is talking about Epig:

Epignosis’ reason for voting Frog was bad. It was a very “easy” vote, they didn’t really analyze anything to get to that, just “I saw that single thing from a player with ~100 posts and it is scummy so here’s my vote”. I’ll excuse it since they only subbed in late in the phase, but it is not the kind of thought process I’d like to see anymore…
At 37 as of now.

He isn't talking about Silver by herself it seems.


What do you all think about this? Too detailed and paranoid? Or legit suspicion?
Had to point it out cause it's bugging my brain.

When something is weird, it is weird. IS. Still is weird.

A vote was placed. WAS. Day is over, it's no longer a thing...

Dyslexicon wrote:The thought process where you put the stuff about Epig in past tense, while you put stuff about the players alive in present tense.

Not in the original post IIRC. I made a complementary one later saying that you should disregard Epig/Silverwolf.
Why would scum me even bother?

a2thezebra wrote:

Zexy wrote:Here to stick till EOD.

Before you call me scummy for tha-

VOTE ZEXY

Was this enough to flip your read this easily?

MovingPictures07 wrote:Reads! I need to know them!

Still not feeling good about IAWY, Wilgy, MetalMarsh. a2thezebra, Dyslexicon slight scum leans.
Golden, MP town. Marco townish. Sloonei/Psi unsure.

Dyslexicon wrote:VOTE ZEXY

If IAWY is scum this is really scummy

MovingPictures07 wrote:Zexy, I say if Psi doesn't show up halfway through this period or later that you go ahead and provide the answers to my questions for him on page 22. I'd prefer for him to answer, but he hasn't posted in quite some time.

You sure it is 22? Went back and read it, nothing.

Golden wrote:Zexy seems pretty sane though.

Not reading everything and being active all the time is one of the ways I use to retain my sanity, yeah

Dyslexicon wrote:But I don't trust him. Gets some townish reads on him and disappears. Nurrrrrr.

It's because I got busy with RL... I normally am inactive, but not this much.

Dyslexicon wrote:Zexy, Why did you include the stuff about Silver and Epig in your catch up in the first place?

Because I worked on that huge post during the night.
Decided not to go back and delete that since I wanted the thought process to be seen.

Dyslexicon wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Dizzy, talk to me about Zexy.

Don't know if I have all that much to say. I need some answers from him. He's mostly in the unsure category. I'm always thinking I'm misgendering him.

Such as? Why I included Silverwolf/Epignosis? That's not too many questions...

MovingPictures07 wrote:If scum!him does it more easily, then why do you conclude 50-50 at best?

And that's fine, use your best judgment. Hopefully he comes back soon.

Lastly, regarding your RL, I hope everything is alright. And don't sweat the game, RL > mafia game, always.

Because it's 75% possible he is town and 25% he is scum. Meta makes it closer to 50-50.

I doubt he cares AT ALL.

Kk I’m still not done with that all but I got some time for EOD.

This is questions till page 55. Gotta post it because we have less than 15 minutes and I wanna check if you have real-time questions too.

Here to stick till EOD.

Before you call me scummy for that, you should know I actually tend to show up before EOD a lot as town in MU games and the like.

Will read through for questions aimed at me, first. Meanwhile I can reply to questions you throw at me real time. I'll wrap up with reads on the wagons and hopefully on more people if I see I have time.

I think Psi is so overwhelmed he doesn’t even care. Scum!him does this more easily than town!him, but town!him does it enough as well and numbers alone say it’s more likely for him to be town, so 50-50 at best… Still not answering to the rest of your questions, MP, at least for a while longer… just in case.

I disagree with the notion that mafia 1x vig wouldn’t use their shot tonight. The worlds were narrowed down, indeed, but they could be afraid that the 1x vig would get lynched d2 before being able to use their extra kill. 1 less townie is much more important than 4 less worlds imo.

I think Golden’s townier than all the people voting for him. Dyslexicon in particular just shifts his vote around…

But I don't trust him. Gets some townish reads on him and disappears. Nurrrrrr.

I know, I know. May sound like excuses but I have some unexpected RL stuff to deal with. Only Psi can really confirm this, though
I’m trying… but right now I’m also tired.It’s past 3am in Greece as I am posting this, check for yourselves… tomorrow, though, I should be able to stick around for EOD.

Still owing the ISOs They'll happen, people.
As for voting... definitely not Golden. I would feel more comfortable with Zebra had Dyslexicon not made that switch.

Ignore the parts about Silverwolf and Long Con/Epignosis, I guess.

More later...

Okay so I have to read through pages 21-43. I’ll kinda skim for now and even in that case I don’t think I’ll make it in time, definitely wasn’t expecting THAT many pages to show up after my latest post in page 30…

I’m mostly using CTRL+F on “Zexy” and “Vote” so I can see points aimed at me and reply to them and the important cases that made you all switch your wagons around a lot. Quotes unfortunately don’t work as long as the thread is locked So I write the tags myself… Whatever let’s go!

I'm still liking my rainbow for now. No change. I understand why you would find LC high in particular, but LC is probably the player in this game who I've played with the most (either him or MP), and I think I get good reads on him more often than not. Right now, I don't have any reason really to town read him but I certainly don't have any reason to mild scum him, nothing about his play seems off to me, and I was going for no null reads.

Understood, Golden, I’ll trust you on this one

It's going to be a slingshot, I already said what I was going to do to. Zexy is usually very good at this already whether or not she knows it. Someone MUST go bech before EOD implicit or explicit.

I don’t even know what kind of slingshot you are talking about, Frog.

9) Zexy is moderately towny via Meta. active and engaging enough. I'd like to see Zexy try to shoot for an MVP spot. IMagine this is the champs itself Zexy. Imagine we're on bulba garden. Take leadership FFS!

How drunk were you when you typed this? The chances of me shooting for MVP in games this active approach… zero? The biggest game I ever played in Bulbagarden had 1100 posts. Biggest ever played there was 1600. And I don’t mean just Day 1 xD

About MP’s questions for Psi in 22… I have my thoughts but I really feel like Psi himself should answer the questions so I can form a read on him. After that I’ll tell you what I think about that.

in any event:
... im too drunk to rememner. someone who isn't a drooler pick up on th mech implciations. I want to say MArco and/or Zexy will be able to figure this out better than most.

What kind of mechanics do you want us to figure out? Was something claimed?

I have to ISO MP as well sometime, but I already owe you Marco and Dyslexicon -_- Would definitely do those first because MP ISO is probably going to take a really long while…

Where?

Yay, I now owe you a Wilgy ISO as well -_-

Sloonei
VOTE SLOONEI
VOTE METALMARSH89
VOTE SLOONEI

Way to look townie, MetalMarsh
Idk while you did some work there with your wallposts before this all I don’t feel like your reasoning for voting Sloonei is adequate. You called him opportunistic… while what you do is opportunistic as well, I think.

Read up to 25.

As for Zexy, I feel that Zexy is similar to Marco in that they seem to be a newcomer who's putting in an honest effort to analyze other players' content and not be easily swayed by one argument over another. Both Zexy and Marco seem to be thinking for themselves and looking at things objectively, and for that I have a strong town read for both of them, given that I see no hidden baddie-motivated agenda behind that effort.

I like this point. For one a2thezebra became active and started making sounds posts which makes her look better. From the other hand, this approach helps me feel less paranoid about Marco as well.

Wagon on MM made sense. I don’t think we are done with him…

You won't be back for EoD? Man, bummer.

This should not be a problem from the next 2 day phases at least. Hopefully all the way down…

MP’s read at IAWY @ page 30 makes sense. I know many of you think MP is wolf but I think he is trying WAY too hard to be a wolf…

Dizzy trying to push the zebra wagon after it deflated is weird. Unless he is scum with the top wagon of the time (MM) I don’t understand why scum would do that…

Marco, why am I in your scummish pile in the rainbow list?

Actually, I said that I’ll ISO Wilgy but MP already did it for me. I agree that there is something scummish about him, also I don’t know Wilgy meta as much as MP does so I’ll trust him. Actually, were it not for Wilgy quirky meta, I would get a bigger scumread than what I currently have.

Something I don’t like about IAWY wagon is that ika/Silverwolf went on him buddy-buddy to make the wagon important. Again I think it was MM as the wagon back then, wonder if this is an attempt from them to shift the wagon elsewhere. Anyways, if MM ever flips scum, we have lots of stuff to look back in d1 and that’s good.

on't like Zexy's most recent post, and the fact that afaik he's left his vote the same place (without it having impact) like the whole game

That’s because the wagons at the time were a2thezebra and MP I think, Dizzy. Still, someone with 4 votes I didn’t want to push more and someone I townread. Had I shown up a bit later when MM/IAWY was the thing I’d go for MM…

Epignosis’ reason for voting Frog was bad. It was a very “easy” vote, they didn’t really analyze anything to get to that, just “I saw that single thing from a player with ~100 posts and it is scummy so here’s my vote”. I’ll excuse it since they only subbed in late in the phase, but it is not the kind of thought process I’d like to see anymore…
At 37 as of now.

Marco
Epignosis
Dyslexicon
Silverwolf
Soneji
Zexy
DrWilgy
Frog
Golden
Inawordyes
ika
Psittaciform
sig
a2thezebra
MovingPictures07
Sloonei

Now this is a rainbow list I don’t agree with, MM. Epignosis/Dyslexicon/Silverwolf/Soneji/Wilgy/IAWY too high. Golden/sig/MP/Sloonei too low -_-

I know it’s too late for me to say this but I wouldn’t go after Frog if I was around… even the slight paranoia I have developed at a time wasn’t enough to warrant a d1 lynch on a person that could self-clear through content alone AND give us lots of good insight.

And I’m caught up. Although I wanna re-read the EOD because I didn’t have too much of a clear mind when I read it just now. I also owe Dyslexicon/Marco ISOs as promised… although I lean town on Marco again. I should also do MM/IAWY because I think there has to be a lynch in there sometime.

But this all won’t happen now, sorry I promise I’ll try to do more soon and be around for this EOD… meh that’s all I’ve got for you now

Alright, so, I exist, had a really busy day and just have to go to bed sometime soon.
Unfortunately, there is absolutely no way I'm going to catch up to 10 pages of posts in time

I see that there has been a huge shift to MetalMarsh close to EOD. I don't really disagree with it, and I don't think any of the other wagons is better. Never thought of MP as really scummy. I also definitely don't trust the people in Sloonei's 2-vote wagon. a2thezebra would be fine with me... but considering how no one is after her anymore I guess you have good reason to read her town as of now.

So I'll stick to my current vote, no reason not to...

see you all laterz

Question for Frog; What is VCA?

… idk what else I have to say for now. Tbh I have to go again and I got a bit discouraged to keep going right now upon seeing Dyslexicon’s hugeposts. But I’ll be back.

Frog wrote:Zexy - yes I fucked up in our 9er shooter game. TBO Panther is fucking legit. We stokr each other like cats on Cleopatra's alters. I thought I had a the sub read that failed disinctly (obv can't relaease it publically, but shoot me a PM for the fake meta town read I thought was legit).

Not more than me. To be... Onest? Drunk? Something else?
Is getting drunk and posting a lot when town a tactic of yours to show us all that you don’t have anything to hide?

Well… tbh I have to go soonish and I can’t entirely focus on all of Dyslexicon’s catch up thing yet. I know it will be very useful to do so and I will do it, since I’m on the fence with my read on him… just not yet. I don’t feel like pushing his lynch d1 anyway.

20 is read.

I am ISTJ. Many people mentioned their types and I feel like it is my DUTY to do so as well. I also feel like it is my DUTY to read through all the posts and reply to stuff. See the pattern?

Golden wrote:Rainbow time - decided to treat it like gth and have no null reads.

Medium Town

Marco
Sloonei
Zexy

Mild Town

Frog
MovingPictures07
Silverwolf
Dyslexicon
Long Con
sig

Mild Bad

ika
Inawordyes
Psittaciform
Soneji
Metalmarsh89

Moderate Bad

a2thezebra
DrWilgy

Sloonei a bit too high. After his latest posts I would drop him a bit...
Silverwolf/Long Con a bit too high for my liking as well. Dyslexicon not yet sure. Especially now that he only wishes to find out when EOD is but is unwilling to give us other thoughts…
Wilgy maybe a bit too low? Quirky meta could move him up a tier I think. Or not, that OMGUS is bad…

Inawordyes wrote:- Players I have played at least one game with before are: Frog, Zexy, Kia, and sig.

... Objection? The only one was the recent 6er in MU in which we didn't interact at all. And the Mayor game which wasn't the mafia.

Anyways, if Frog thinks you’re outside of your meta I’ll trust him on that…

Frog wrote:Zexy - Zexy's game isn't necessarily about post farming. I've seen Zexy's town game being low post count and being completely in tune with the game and coming up with the same conclusions as I do without taking the leadership position. I've also seen Zexy in the leadership position for Town but it makes her prone to mislynches.

The two games you are talking about had a HUUUUUGE activity difference. In my homesite I can easily be the most active guy and lead and have lots of a voice. That's why I was picked as the rep. Oh, btw, it's now set in stone, I'll be Bulba's rep. In MU I am struggling to keep up. Here, I am also struggling but not as much. I am not prone to mislynches in Bulba, in MU I am a bit when I'm not giving it my all to be honest, in the SHOTS 9er, I wasn't giving it my all. I'm not exactly giving it my all in this game as well but I sure try more. because I need to practice for the Champ, and there I'll have to give 101% all

19 is read.

Before starting reading through 18, I feel like I should address this:
I’m not sure that Psit is scum. I mean, he very well could be, since sum him is indeed more inactive than town, at the same time he may just don’t care about this game (he does that a lot too!), which is NAI.

Upon reading 18, I agree that zebra is scummier. She actually went through the hassle of showing up, but said show wasn’t towny at all. Feeling more comfortable with voting her, but I don’t want to make 3-2 wagons 4-1 this soon.

Sloonei ‘s slank cover is so-so. Problem is, although he looked towny early on, scum!him could try to make an awesome first impression, then use this to go UTR safe mode. [OT}Hope he doesn’t try these kinds of tricks in the Championship…[/OT]

Wilgy’s post isn’t good either. May be regular Wilgy but all I see is shade towards all the other inactives which is easy to do and hypocritical when inactive yourself.

18 is done. Sorry if 19 doesn’t come up very soon I’m kinda multitasking at the moment.

Frog wrote:Tip to those going to the championship:

Wolf teams are diverse, I almost gurantee at least one wolf always slanks off to be under the radar.

It's town's job to avoid D1 TvT (Town vs. Town) arguments, and stay on track of cornering the slanking wolf.

Typically the slanking wolf is usually a valuable PR wolf. Let's DO THIS.

By the same logic I almost guarantee that at least one wolf should be in SUPER TRYHARD MODE.

Indeed, yet you have to argue with people before reading them, you want the interactions to be there so you can look at them later, you want to start working on figuring out the active wolves as early as possible.

As for focusing on the slankers, even if you do so, you can't FORCE them to post more so you can figure things out. I understand wanting to apply pressure, but some just are inactive and we may be unable to do anything to change that... so they are not worth our entire discussion time.

ika wrote:ok anyways, MP i have gut read son them if that doesnt suffice then i dont got much else to say

gut read town or gut read scum?

sig wrote:However, I do want to point out I find it strange some people are saying I'm playing harder then usually which is scummy while others are saying I'm no contributing. Those are like the opposite.

Maybe because not everyone knows you a lot?

I'm eyeballing Pits, Zebra, Dyslexicon, and Wilgy. I'll ISO all four later.

Interested on Dyslexicon; why Dyslexicon?

For the note, I'm also interested in Dyslexicon's read on Golden; I see the vote is STILL there and it is kinda pingy.

Sloonei wrote:Somebody tell me who I should vote for. I am not going to be able to read this thread tonight. Or tomorrow. Or the next day. I probably should have stayed on the sidelines.

Wow. After Sloonei’s early show I was not expecting to see this. The game’s activity is indeed overwhelming, and you definitely can no longer pick single sentences off, but… I feel like this post is genuine towny, and I can also see we’re going to have some trouble with the Championship’s activity -_-

Frog wrote:[*]Pilfirmous

keep amusing me

17/20. I may have to go for a few hours before completely catching up
Will still be back and continue, though, I doubt this will be extremely active in the next few hours, that’s what da timezones tell me.

Silverwolf wrote:Zexy-I don't give a rip if I look towny here or not, how I look doesn't matter to me-I'm going after my scumreads, I suggest you do the same and if you think I'm scum, then go ahead and vote me instead of constantly discrediting everything I say.

Scum can easily say something like this to avoid replying to accusations made at them.

I will ISO you sometime, Marco But for now I have to catch up and this post will be 15/20.

Page 15 has some good posts in which Frog/MP and Golden -> Silverwolf seem to make their thoughts more clear, I can see some of those interactions being T/T but I am still on the fence with Silverwolf. I’d expect scum to start acting up by this point since there aren’t many hours left and the wagons aren’t clear.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Oh, and one last thing. I keep remembering things on my mind as I caught up again. Zexy, you asked about meta read on DrWilgy.

My natural response is to say... DOES NOT COMPUTE, DOES NOT COMPUTE, and explode, but I'll try my best. DrWilgy is a slow starter kind of player, generally, though it really depends on the game (and more so on his RL situation, I think). His style is perhaps most similar to MM of all the other players in this game, but he doesn't always become increasingly analytically-driven like MM does as the game progresses. He's probably the hardest one to actually provide meta on because he's a "zanier" kind of dude, and I think he enjoys switching up his meta from game to game. I've seen him hunt more gut-based, but I've also seen him hunt very analytically from the start of the game and produce posts like this (from Talking Heads, where he was mafia, and the most analytically-hunting I've seen him):

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 42#p184042
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 73#p185973

Thanks.

Frog wrote: IAWY typically posts a shit ton and leads town. He said he's taking it easy this game. He'll resolve himself by tomorrow as either town or mafia.

Typically. Are we going to excuse everything from him because he said so at the beginning?
You know him well enough to be sure that he'll become a town leading top poster all of a sudden tomorrow? If not, how will he resolve himself?
By that logic, why go after DrWilgy who is a slow start player? Or Psittaciform who is always inactive? Or ANY inactive? Not saying that we shouldn’t go after them, just that I don’t see why cases on IAWY in particular are bad when cases on other inactives are good!

MovingPictures07 wrote:Frog, what the hell is an obvious townie? There is no such thing. Also, you realize that's, like, your opinion, man. How come you get to determine what's easy mislynch bait and what isn't? We don't know anything until flips have occurred. Otherwise, stop acting like you have such confident reads.

Furthermore, what happened to your suspicion of Marco and Sloonei?

Could be TMI and read-flipping? You are now making me paranoid of Frog... you know, I don't have a clue of how scum!Frog works, so...

16/20.

Silverwolf wrote:Zexy-I don't give a rip if I look towny here or not, how I look doesn't matter to me-I'm going after my scumreads, I suggest you do the same and if you think I'm scum, then go ahead and vote me instead of constantly discrediting everything I say.

Scum can easily say something like this to avoid replying to accusations made at them.

I will ISO you sometime, Marco But for now I have to catch up and this post will be 15/20.

Page 15 has some good posts in which Frog/MP and Golden -> Silverwolf seem to make their thoughts more clear, I can see some of those interactions being T/T but I am still on the fence with Silverwolf. I’d expect scum to start acting up by this point since there aren’t many hours left and the wagons aren’t clear.

Silverwolf reactions don't really help her look townier

Golden wrote:Incorrect. I've suspected only you and silverwolf. That's a big difference.

If you iso me, you'll see I've provided at least some commentary on an awful lot of players. I don't need to provide commentary on a player I don't see anything to talk about. There are very few players I haven't mentioned.. Dizzy and Psi are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head, and thats because they are mysteries to me and I've had no gut read.

This is one of the most common reasons to mislynch me. I'll hound players when I get a whiff of suspicion. That doesn't mean the other content isn't there.

I'd ISO you over and over before deciding to consider lynching you. I can see your points, which is why I think I'm just paranoid on you. I can’t see you as a serious scumread for now.

This is it for now. I’ll stick to Psi, the inactive ones really need to be weeded out. Actives will just make mistakes eventually, if scum.

MP just trying too hard to be scum imho. Ika is the kind of person I find almost unreadable Early on, I was afraid Dizzy would be that guy, but hopefully, nope

Frog’s plan’s fine. I’m already on Psittaciform so guess I’m fine for it as things are.

What is NAI?

I don’t like Silver’s accusation of MP. Idk how much MP would tryhard as wolf, but I feel like Silver is trying harder to negat all of MP’s points, which is just… pointless, as Frog said

13 is read.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Zexy, I have the following questions and comments regarding this reads list of yours:
1) What good points has Golden brought up?
2) How does the method by which Marco post make his activity faked? What do you think of the content of his "one-liners"? I find the fact that you are considering the method rather than the content of his activity as the basis of your read suspect.
3) What's the strange cover you are referring to with respect to IAWY? I can't recall off the top of my head after doing all that reading.

Thanks, Zexy! You're the best for dealing with all of my questions, assuming you continue to do so.

Also, what is slank cover, anyone?

1 The entire reasoning behind his reads on Sloonei, Sig, Marco. Even myself, I could see why he scumread me for a while, and why he changed his mind after we interacted. His points on Silverwolf’s behavior were good, and again he changed his mind after learning more about her.
2 I believed the content of his one-liners was just there so he would look active. Although he’s overly analytical now and I can see where he’s coming from. Will have to ISO him to put those posts in a townier perspective.
3) Slank cover = people announcing they will be inactive before the game or shortly after the game begins. IAWY’s slank cover is a bit strange, he’s talking about some new philosophy he will play the game by…

Psitacci’s activity is so low it’s suspicious. I mean, he’s inactive when town. But VERY inactive when scum.

I’d like to see a rainbow list from MARCO at some point. He said he doesn’t do them… but tbh I see no reason any townie ever wouldn’t like to do them.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Marco wrote:

Zexy wrote:Marco 43 – Too many one-liners, kinda “fake” activity if you ask me. Not feeling too good about him yet.

What do people think about this? I ISO'd myself and I can sort of see some one-liners, but I can't really see how Zexy is calling my activity fake. She feels disingenuous IMO. I have had other reasons to suspect Zexy, too, but it could be that it's OMGUS-motivated, so I request others to ISO me and tell me what they think about Zexy's read on me.

I commented on this already, but I wanted to emphasize it, because it's currently one of the strongest points against Zexy being town in my opinion. This could be a way for a mafia Zexy to fabricate a suspicion, but the train of thought is flawed (criticizing your method of posting rather than your content).

Methods of posting can be towny or scummy irregardless of the content itself. Ever heard of tone reading? I can see your point here, but scum!me wouldn’t drop the scum lean on Marco this soon.

12 is read.

that being said, what i find odd about sig is that hes diffrent then what i played with him before.

Really interested on what is different, IKA.

Looks like DrWilgy is a person that only replies to whatever is thrown at them. Inactive, not reading through the thread… is this his regular meta?

Zexy, bet you're going to get tired of my questions, aren't you? Here are some more:
1) How do Marco's posts seem townier now compared to earlier?
2) Why is Silverwolf providing commentary on players who aren't being discussed the most slightly scummy? What's the motivation for a mafia player to do this?
3) You say here you like to work via process of elimination because you get more town reads than mafia reads. Would you mind providing a rainbow list when you get a chance? (assuming you haven't already once I catch up fully)

1 Again you are kinda behind. At that point Marco was showing more of an effort than just providing commentary. Ever since, though, he bombarded us with one-liners that I really think were odd.
2 Because scum would like to avoid taking stances on the main debate, it lets them pick whichever wagon they wish when the time comes for it.
3 I have provided a reads list although it wasn’t exactly rainbow. I’ll do so again in a bit, though.

Lastly, you say that you are found scummy because you tend to flip your POV on players, but I think that's not your problem and more so those who are suspecting you. Mafia tend to be more consistent because they have to fabricate their reads; civilians are free to change their mind at any time. I'd suggest that you not be afraid to put your early reads out there, but if you don't feel confident in them, just express your level of confidence (or lack thereof).

Not necessarily; mafia can flip their reads as well if they see that their current ones don’t help them push the wagons they wish. Again, you are kinda behind, by this point I’ve given reads, back then I wasn’t comfortable enough with doing that.

I’ll have to give Marco that’s he trying more now and starts looking better again. Gave some detailed cases in page 11. Time to reply to him:

Anyway, no, my posts don't tend to be one-liners. I admit every post of mine isn't a bunch of thoughts requiring a lot of exposition but I think I have posted more substance-full posts (I mean quantity, the actual number of non-superficial posts, not that any post of mine has more substance or value than anyone else's) than the majority, in this game. But I do believe not every post has to be a bunch of lines. Sometimes a one-liner is more than appropriate.

I think I put a fair lot of thought behind most of my posts. Some have been on a whim but if I'm making a read, suggestion, etc, I generally think about it more than once before posting. I definitely don't think any of my posts have a scum motivation behind them. Why do you think my posts don't have thought behind them? Or that they're scum-motivated?

Particularly, in the post you quoted, what is so "thoughtless" or "scum-motivated" about it? You say it is a wagon that scum can easily lead on a townie and look fine. Why do you find my post "thoughtless" when multiple others (Golden, MovingPictures) have acknowledged that my observation is legit? And does your read change knowing that I actually rescinded my vote on Silver soon after that vote?

Agreed, you have indeed stepped it up recently. I can see the thought and I actually have a town lean as of now (but this is page 11 mind you). I didn’t say it was “thoughtless”, I said it was easy for scum to attempt pushing for a wagon there in case they are town. I didn’t completely agree with Golden/MP views anyway, still paranoid on Golden, not on MP.
Tbh you’ve confused me kinda so I’ll have to ISO you later on. By this point my read isn’t even based on that vote.

If here and in the Championship, you won't be able to use meta as much as you'd like, why have you requested for it as much as you have?

I’ll be requesting it in the Championship as well, chances are some players will have interacted before over there as well.

And with this 11 is over. I think you can see I’m kinda overwhelemed, apologies

Dyslexicon wrote:Zexy, What do you think about the notion that Frog expected you to clear him based on meta?

I don't think it's unnatural for town!Frog to say that. Yet at the same time I don't know Frog's meta that well, I haven’t ever seen a scum game of his, which means I can't clear him based on meta for either his previous posts or this specific one.

MP wrote: Zexy, I have a few questions on this post.
1) You say what Frog has done in the beginning is scummy with respect to strategy talk and RVS hypocrisy. What do you find hypocritical about his stance on RVS?
2) You say his accusations of Marco are really good and he brings up towny points. What are these points and why do you think they're really good?
3) Can you elaborate on what you mean by Sloonei's cases being a bit too perfect? What posts/cases in particular?

1) The fact he stated he dislikes RVS but pushed for people to tell him they are town, as well as doing it himself.
2) Now this is from a while ago, when Marco only provided commentary in an attempt to look like an important voice over the Sloonei/Sig (and later Golden) debate. The points Frog brought up felt good because of his solvy tone which I’ve seen before, as well as the fact that I agreed with them (and his read on Marco at the time) so I thought we had a similar mindset.
3) The questions he made up until the point I said that; he always seems to be able to see holes in others’ logic and make the correct question. He always seems to be correct in the arguments he takes part in. As in, picking only fights he can win.

Btw this overall behavior from MP is seriously towny. His questions/cases on everybody make lots of sense.

Only read until page 10 for now.

Time to put someone to 2 votes, I don't like Golden/Sloonei wagons

VOTE PSITTACIFORM
hey man gimme reactions pls

Golden 53 – Just paranoid about him. He’s definitely trying, bringing up good points and all. But I have no clue how good and active he is when mafia.
Marco 43 – Too many one-liners, kinda “fake” activity if you ask me. Not feeling too good about him yet.
Sloonei 41 – Town, I guess, lots of analysis, MP mentioned things about his meta…
Frog 34 – Town lean
Dyslexicon 27 – Town lean
Silverwolf 25 – Slight town lean (so goes for ika)
sig 20 – Not that sure, seems to be skating around a bit
Zexy 20 – SCUMMY SCUM LYNCH HIM NOW
MovingPictures07 13 – Provided slank cover and useful meta… unsure although leaning town.
ika 11 – check Silverwolf
Long Con 11 – Strange meta, could be scum
Inawordyes 10 – Provided some strange cover, could be scum
DrWilgy 4 – Could be scum
Metalmarsh89 4 – Could be scum
a2thezebra 3 – Could be scum
Psittaciform 2 – Could be scum

Marco wrote:I feel like Silverwolf's posts have a very "drifter" quality to them. Just moving along, picking random posts and responding to them. There seems to be no desire to interact beyond the occasional observation or to engage anyone. The participation seems superficial. What do others think?

VOTE SILVERWOLF

While I don’t disagree, I think this is the kind of wagon scum could easily lead on a townie and look just fine.

Do your post just tend to be one-liners? It feels like there is not much thought and a scum motivation behind them…

Golden wrote:"Immediately defend a buddy at such an early stage"

This is exactly when subtle defence of baddies does happen - and, let me make it very clear, Zexy did NOT defend sig. She criticised sloonei. These things are different. I wouldn't expect to see it on day three. In the very early going? All the time.

Zexy wouldn't be the first baddie I've caught that way, not by a long shot.

I disagree and wouldn't do it because that is exactly what everyone will focus on after one of the baddies died and they read them for spew. There’s no reason at all to bring unnecessary attention to a scumbuddy pair that early in the game. You think scum!me would be honestly afraid that sig could get lynched at that early point?

Golden wrote:In Turf Wars, she was the voice that kept saying we should be focussing on some other people to the people who were the main topic of conversation. She was ultimately right, and also town. It doesn't bother me if she focusses on places that are different to where others are for this reason.

Noted! Also noted how ika is very defensive of her etc. which are all town points for them.

Frog wrote:I know Zexy's meta well enough. I want to see how she acts under implicit pressure. (D1 hammer is such a bummer)

Zexy knows my town meta and hasn't cleared me is setting off a mild siren.

Expect a thorough summary from me tomorrow before EOD.

We haven't played that much together. We've also never seen each other's scum meta.

This is around the point I’m starting getting paranoid over Golden; our top poster has pretty much focused only on me/Silverwolf. Insists too much on Silverwolf when it’s probably a meta thing, I’m afraid…

To reply to MP’s question of my meta; I use it a lot in my reads, problem is, here and in the Championship, I won’t be able to use it as much as I’d like. From what little meta I can use I think Frog’s likely town and Psittaciform may not be, I want to see more.
I believe mafia tends to be more defensive because townies don’t know alignments and should be more uncertain, so they wouldn’t just defend when not sure themselves. Mafia can also defend fellow mafia to save them or defend fellow town to buddy them.
Other than a reaction, I wanted an actual explanation as well when I asked Sloonei.

A bit more I need to post in a bit.

Back. Time to read through all that...

Not sure I can see what LC's slip is.

No clue what IIoA is and why it's not a good alignment tell anymore (or why it was before)

Golden wrote:Oh but you didn't defend sig zexy. That's my point. You only criticised sloonei.

I didn't mean 'reading sig off', I meant 'reading sig from so little information'. I've seen people who can regularly make successful day 0 scum reads on less.

Well I though sloonei was the one who was too quick on reading someone. It's not sig's fault that he was read quickly.

I haven't. And I explained I didn't know how good Sloonei was at analysis at the time or how much he could've known sig from before.

Dyslexicon’s reads are mostly good, not sure how much I can relate to his Sloonei read, though. Getting better and better, town lean here.

Golden, I think your scumread on me is just playstyle clash. I stand by my point that early content isn’t enough for any reads, which is something I believe anyways; so, if scum, I wouldn’t attract that much attention to the interaction between me and my buddy, that’s all.

Well, Golden, looks like it wasn’t LC’s opening that was strange. His entire playstyle just feels a bit quirky to me, but if that’s his meta it’s null.

~1500 posts d1 is too much, I think. Last year’s finals didn’t hit 2000 posts total, and although it had 13 players instead of 17, 1500 posts in Day 1 is an overstatement.

Golden wrote:Sometimes very early reads are the most accurate. Frequently people make their biggest mistakes before they find their footing in the game. If sloonei really believed in his read, why would it be expected for him to 'not only rely on that'?

Maybe but they may not be based on early posts alone.
Well that's what I questioned early on, did he believe, or was he scum trying to set up a read he could use later?
It's cleared up by this point.

Frog wrote:Lol, nothing is scummy- I'm suggesting optimal strategy and pointing out things to keep eyes on. Literally none of my points have been refuted on a logical basis- all of my perspectives, warrants and basis for claims remain intact. Instead we see Sloonei and Marco discrediting my content based on fallacious logic, often times side stepping my points entirely.

It's quite sad to see your scum game Zexy

Ultimately you're shoving a false narrative that straddles every side. I don't like it.

Scum like to seem useful by suggesting optimal strategy, though. I agree that your points are all logical, just saying that the early stuff could've been said by scum as well. The later make you look better.

It's quite sad to see you think this is my scum game
You also called me town earlier.

Do we have any ideas on Marco meta? Latest posts look townier than before, even Frog acknowledged it.

Golden wrote:I didn't like the way Zexy minimised sloonei's sig read, and put in an early perspective that, essentially, no rational player should be reading sig off so little and if sloonei continues with the read he must be a scum looking for a bandwagon.

If you are going about making sure an early wagon doesn't build on your teammate, it's a subtle and clever way of doing it.

I'm better than that, if I was sig's buddy I wouldn't come to his defense that early for such minimal reasoning. It's unnecessary attention.
As for "reading sig off" please remember that I don't know sig as well as you all do.

It's not really subtle and clever, such early defense on a scumbuddy when chances are that wagon won't stay till the end is just unnecesarry, if not an outright bad move.

Silverwolf preferred to focus on people like ika and MP instead of the bunch that was discussed the most, and that’s slightly scummy I think. She just doesn’t seem to like Frog going on with his very solvy cases and Sloonei/Marco throwing their fair share of townie posts in thread… later on she questions Sloonei about sig, though. Still, there’s that vibe she’s trying to avoid the main discussion.

This is useful information. Does it usually take the form of the rather inconclusive maybe this, but maybe this? Zexy can clarify this too if he wants. Thing is he is commenting on a lot, but no stances. Not sure it's a problem, cause I definitely can relate to a point (probably doing it right now), but it is a thing I noticed.

Indeed that’s the case, I’m not one who easily reads people this early. I also get townreads more easily than scumreads, so I’m working with process of elimination. I’ve noticed that when I voice my early reads too much, I tend to flip them later and look scummy for that.

This is peculiar! I kind of love it, cause I'm confused now. Why do you think I'd tunnel you or tunnel at all? I'm merely joking around/taking RVS seriously.

At the time you haven’t talked about anybody else. This is not even close to what’s really going on now that you are wallposting, though, so that point’s obsolete. I like how you finally comment a lot as well.

I lean town on Psittaciform’s first post. Because meta. Only a lean, though.

What Frog’s done in the beginning is scummy (strategy talk + RVS hypocrisy), but votes piled up a bit too easily which made me paranoid, mostly about Marco. And Frog’s accusations of Marco are really good and he brings up towny points, although he overdoes it with TMI at some point. And there’s some tunneling going on here. I have more trouble accepting a Marco/Sloonei team than just Marco being mafia in the two.

Yet when it comes to Sloonei VS Frog, while Sloonei looks like he wins the argument easily, there is paranoia that kicks in as well. Sloonei’s cases are a bit too perfect. If he is so good, assuming he’s town, it means he could be good scum as well…

That’s it for now, will be back later.

Ok and for now I'll stop following the thread for a while. Later!

Frog, asking people to say they’re town and doing so yourself is Troll, right? Then are you a Tryhard for reals?

Well, Dizzy, all previous posts weren’t really about analysis on things… this would be your second and it involves only me, again. Hope I don’t end up being your tunnel target…

Btw I’m not checking messages that were written between the time I started typing and the time I hit the post button. In MU there’s no feature to check those posts so I’d like to imitate that.

Well Psi, Sloonei already has me beat in the analyzing thing.

Well, Dizzy, I said you look too comfortable while doing this all which feels towny. This is your first serious post btw, interesting way to start there…

Idk about Frog those posts are typical mechanics posts that both alignments like to make. That part about disliking RVS only for him to ask people to tell him that they are town and doing so himself… hypocritical at least. Yet not enough to warrant even more votes on Frog of all people who’s got his fair share for now.

Sig’s fine for now. No need to fight over claiming indeed. Sloonei and his questions are better though.

Marco still talking about mechanics/strategy… not so good I’d say.

Frog's post just above my latest one has a really weird layout for me is it a screenshot or?

kk Dizzy is really PerC style quirky. I lean town because he feels too comfortable doing this.

Sloonei wrote:Sig, what is the nature of your ping on me? How strong is it and why is it there?

I like this post. You really don't let a single sentence slip, don't you?

Meta on Metalmarsh please? Looks like RVS guy like Long Con etc.

Thanks for that line about Sloonei, sig. Didn’t see it when I typed my previous post.

But seriously people there’s no point in asking players themselves about metas/activity levels. It’s the others who know them that need to tell you.

So, sig: what is TS? What do you think of Sloonei’s push on you? You defended, but what does that mean in regards to his alignment?

I disagree on the fake claiming part because in MU there actually a power role cover system where everybody claims all the roles so that the real ones get to “naturally” throw their real results in without standing out too much. And others fakeclaim to draw NKs.

Sloonei wrote:I am reading a player based on the content he's provided. I have a reason and I explained my reason when it was questioned. That is not defensiveness, that is standard Mafia procedure. I know it's not strong but this is Day 1 and we need to start somewhere.

That's good enough of an answer for now, I mostly wanted a reaction as I explained above.
I want to see sig's POV a bit more as well.

Sloonei wrote:So I shouldn't be attempting to read anyone? Got it.

You shouldn't read someone on that little info and be very defensive of it.

Dyslexicon wrote:I agree.

VOTE FROG

Besides, he buddied me in the sign up thread.

I don't really like this...

that's pre-rand lol

Sloonei wrote:You are right. A lot more is going to happen. But that more has not happened yet, so for now I have to work with what I have. What do you think of sig and I? Your last post didn't really give a stance either way.

If anything, the fact you are trying to read someone on this little could be scum trying to slowly and steadily justify a scumread on a townie.
I don't have too much of a stance yet, my posts are also there so you two react to them and they can help me read you through that. You are more defensive than sig which is also slightly scummy of you to do.

Marco wrote:Alas. That's the way she goes.

She?

While I'd like to see more from Dyslexicon, posts like that are kinda regular in PerC so it's cool for now

Also, Sloonei, Frog's question is good and all. Explaining basic stuff about power role cover is useful.

Sloonei wrote:What I didn't like about your posts is that they seemed like an easy opportunistic set of early observations when there wasn't a whole lot of content to analyze. It's a good and easy way to establish yourself early on as a town leader.

I don't think you are the kind of person who would base a read only on that anyway when so much more is going to happen.
I'd like to believe same goes for sig.