The Syndicate

Open towning as wolf is the coolest strategy

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:32 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 5:48 pm Dya/c4 w/w boom

Oh yeah! I even thought at a point "didn't I make another lol pair post? I should probably just tunnel that."

Lolme. Literally happens so often. The reads, especially pairings, I express in a less serious tone are the ones to sheep. =p

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:32 pmI'm sheeping all of Dizzy's preflip w/w reads for the forseeable future

Btw, did you actually miss my Dya/Vul connection or did you just pretend you did? xD I was wondering about that. =p

sunbae wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:51 pm dizzy, i would love to play with you again in a game where im not trying my best to not be noticeable because i think you and i would vibe super hard
i also cracked up at your bullshit \o/ post today

Oh yes, and when I have more time to play and be caught up and stuff! It was great playing with you now in any case! ^^

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:48 pm Lolwillage kept the game exciting when we could have chopped him any of the last four days wiwe

Lolwillage gonna lolwillage.

Look at me the last day lol. Hope it makes sense that I was like not worried if c4 was mafia and only worried if he was town xD

sunbae wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:47 pm well done village!
gg all
thanks for the invite!

Well played!

Well, nobody can accuse us for making it boring!

Thank you for the game, Jimmay!

Sorry for my underwhelming performance, rest of town.
Thanks to SPF for being clutch in F3. ^^

Cool game.
Till next time. ^^

JK

Sorry for dragging it out so much.
To think we almost chopped c4 so many times lol.
Also Vul's trolly post.

Well played c4 and mafia.

SPF clutch! I will never be paranoid about her again wowee!

Gg I was maf lol

Like, in a c4 wolf world, I'm not worried. Cause in that case, you've already solved it. I realise you can't know know, thought I didn't anticipate you still waiting with the voting. It's fair though, but a bit nerve inducing cause I don't want this to go fucked up now, but I think and hope you keep the right conclusion.

@staypositivefriend I probably should feel a bit silly, and you probably thing it should be obvious that you were town all along. But if you look at it from my perspective this phase: What I was most worried about was the world where c4 was actually town. That was the most dangerous world and this is why I entertained this so much. And this is also why I tried gauge where c4 was at all the time, especially asking him what still made him unsure and why he hadn't voted me yet (thought this was awkward to talk about). Because in the back of my mind, I'm well aware that the longer he hedges and doesn't vote, the more I think he's just mafia waiting for you to do it, and then count on me mischopping after that. (And by the way, I'm still pretty damn sure I wouldn't have. Thread probably looks like I really thought it was you, but I was basically just super unsure and worried that it was you more than thinking it was). What I got at towards the end here is that it makes no sense for town c4 to think it's me, be sure it's you, and then still just not vote me already. Especially if he's going to do nothing to change those reads. So that's why I suggested he'd just vote. And he did, and this is that last ditch effort. I have no reason to care about this world where c4 is town if I was wolf. I would not be this worried. So I hope you can see where I was coming from with my approach.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:07 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:01 pm I have absolutely no reason trying to get as much as possible out of c4 this phase if I was wolf here. I've been trying to gauge him all phase, and tried to let him speak on the situation to see if I could confidently solve him. If I was wolf I wouldn't want him to speak. I would want the game to go in the direction it was naturally going. Maybe it's annoying, but my paranoia here is always town. I've been looking in the direction that would cause the biggest problem if it was true and it was ignored (you being wolf instead of c4)

This is flat out incorrect. You used the predictably inconclusive nature of my posts to argue for a last second scumread on me. There's plenty of reason for you to do that as a wolf.

Seriously, did you expect me to respond in any way other than the way I did? I just parroted the stuff I'd been parroting already, and that was when you decided I was hedging because I was a wolf.

i still dont understand what you mean but im sure it makes no sense

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:01 pm

Honey wrote:i still dont understand what you mean but im sure it makes no sense

Should've used this @Dyslexicon
I've wanted to turn this into a copypasta for a bit

I'll remember it for next time.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:54 pm work got frustratingly busy at an inconvenient time so give me like 30 minutes-an hour and i'll hammer. would be very interested in seeing your best cases for why i shouldnt vote you in the meantime

- I'm town town town, and I want to finally win a F3 with town. I realise that is you carrying, but at least I'm town and don't get mischopped.
- The strongest reason is probably still me catching Dya and Vul being teamed. There is no way in hell I tie my one scum read mate to my one town read mate when nobody else was seeing that thing. Furthermore, me catching that, is as town!Dizzy as you get it.
- Everyone who knows me could see I'm town.
- I still had a derp moment on D3, because I didn't think why scum wouldn't just kill Amy.
- All the reasons you've already listed. You're just right.
- I have absolutely no reason trying to get as much as possible out of c4 this phase if I was wolf here. I've been trying to gauge him all phase, and tried to let him speak on the situation to see if I could confidently solve him. If I was wolf I wouldn't want him to speak. I would want the game to go in the direction it was naturally going. Maybe it's annoying, but my paranoia here is always town. I've been looking in the direction that would cause the biggest problem if it was true and it was ignored (you being wolf instead of c4)

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:55 pmYou actually argued I was a wolf while not committing. If the argument against me is that I hedged just to wait for your misvote, this is flat out worse.

I don't know what you are even trying to say here, but I know it's bullshit. \o/

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:53 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:52 pm SPF please. I'm gay. Just let us win in the end please

oh f*ck, you busted out the old: "i'm gay" appeal. i have no choice now

It's the gay power to rainbows and love. I promise. I can not be this cold. You've had it, in fact we mostly did all the way. I was too paranoid this phase and too careful, trying to suss out how c4 would act, I get it, but I'm town here and I think you know that at least reasonably well. And if you still need more, ask me. But I'm just impatient now and I want to win.

SPF please. I'm gay. Just let us win in the end please

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:50 pm 1. I pushed townies and townread wolves and I couldn't do that in CoV even when given every chance and reason
2. If we're talking "whoever breaks the FoS triangle first is playing how a wolf would need to to win" then Dizzy's the one that actually did

2. Huh?

Now you're posts are just pissing me off.

Lol, should've just not been stupid I guess. But I think SPF will be clutch anyway.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:46 pmif c4 is a wolf, why do you think he voted for you instead of voting for me? seems like he had a much higher chance of winning by getting you to try to mishammer, dont you think?

No, I don't think. And he could not believably vote for you here in any case without reasoning his way to it. He was cornered. And if you're even questioning this now, then he still has a chance to pull it off I guess, which would be tragic.

And to be honest, I don't think I would've voted you in any case if he had. I know maybe it seems to you like I scum read you more than c4 here, but that wasn't actually the case. But in c4 scum world, I reasoned we had already basically won, so my only worry was if he was town. Which is why I had that focus.

But hello. I'm town. And you have the reasons.

I feel a bit silly now. But is ok.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:44 pm yeah i dont slowroll, im just town

im gonna think for a while and then place my vote. i would be interested in hearing both of you give me the strongest reasons for

A. why you shouldnt be hammered

B. why the other person should be hammered

A. I'll give you a myriad, if you need it. You were right, and I was just overly careful and paranoid. And I have zero reason to be if I was mafia. I'm town.

B. He's scum.

There we go

It seems I can't poll vote since I clicked "see results" lol

SPF probably not mafia, cause I don't think she's slowrolling like this bad.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:38 pm So I was shockingly right about spf again
Won't blame you either way

Hm. Ok, so maybe it is c4 then =p

Ok gg. I guess SPF was mafia.

Poll seems to be closed so

Like can we not

[VOTE: c4] aubergine

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:35 pm lol gg i was maf

No but for real. Is not that funny

Please say I'm gay if you're town

Well, spf. At least you won the game. Did I as well?

I feel this is doom.

What if I vote first?

Plot twist.

c4 frozen =p

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:27 pmyou think so? i think that today ends with you hammering between me and c4 in most realities, unless c4 calls my bluff and votes for you

Why would it? c4 is going to vote me probably. So either he's town or he's mafia. If he's planning to vote you, he has to make a reason for doing that as mafia, or have a reason to do it as town.

But like, if he's town, you probably should vote first, so that he can confirm me when I don't snap vote.

Basically, the one that is mafia should vote first. =p

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:24 pmfmpov as a wolf, i would be aware that you ended yesterday by explicitly saying that you thought that i was a wolf in a world where visor is a villager. i would also be aware that you have very clearly sought out reasons to confirm your belief that c4 is a villager today. the fact that i could present a comprehensive case for c4 being a wolf and you could still be unsure about yourself should be a pretty firm indicator that i would simply push on you as a wolf instead of trying to talk you out of your read on c4

Sure.
But I don't know if this even matters. Cause it doesn't seem like this is even up to me.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:21 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:20 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:18 pm If I do have to vote first I'd prefer you make me do it soon

Question is if you have what you want to make up your mind? What more do you want to do or what more can you do, or what more can any of us help you with?

Again, no, I don't, and I don't know how I can.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:20 pmno disrespect, but i'm pretty fucking fierce when i have to be as well. i would be more than happy to get into an intense battle with you as a wolf, and in a world where i'm a wolf that has pocketed c4 for the entirety of this game, then i would also be pretty confident that i would win

Well, yeah, that's fair. And you would probably win with going the other route as well. Basically, if you're wolf, you've probably already won when we chopped Visor. Re me saying Visor was right about everything. Which means this is a waste of time. And also why I'm spending more effort being critical of you, to at least give it a try and see if it's even possible to poke at that potential golden position.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:18 pm If I do have to vote first I'd prefer you make me do it soon

Question is if you have what you want to make up your mind? What more do you want to do or what more can you do, or what more can any of us help you with?

Why do I feel we're about to lose whatever the fuck I do lol

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:13 pmit doesn't matter if you personally would have bought it, because my path to victory as a wolf in this scenario is always to just play off of c4's scumread on you and try to convince him to vote you. if you are actually a villager then this should not be nearly as difficult of a decision as you are to be making it out

Technicality, but I think it does matter. Cause I'm fucking fierce if I have to be. And you going from thinking I'm town to going after me in F3 would just be unnatural.

And to your last sentence, maybe you're right. Actually, you probably are. But it's pretty hard to trust that it could just be c4 and then we basically have this in the bag, cause he's probably just cornered if it is, because in about every F3 I've been in, it's been a mafia win (regardless of my alignment lol)

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm if c4 is a wolf then he knows that i'm suspicious of him, which means that if he directly thunderdomes with dizzy, he'll probably end up losing. at the same time, he can't directly thunderdome with me, because he's called me "obvious" town for the entirety of this game

but c4, as a wolf, does know that dizzy is actively suspicious of me, and that there's a solid chance that he'll end up misvoting me when things are all said and done

so, if c4 is a wolf, that puts him in a position where he has to hope that i vote for him and that dizzy mishammers me, because the alternative (voting for dizzy) would lead to him losing much of the time. this aligns pretty well with the approach he's taken today, although i am admittedly worried that he's a villager

I mean, yeah. This is what I've been considering. Cause I'm wondering, if c4 is so confident in me being the last wolf, or conversely maybe, so confident that you have to be town, then why is he not just voting me? Like, I don't want that to happen if he is town, cause then it's a loss. But I kind of do want that to happen if he is mafia, cause then you would become confirmed for me by not hammering, and he'll lose. But he knows this, so obviously he isn't going to vote me as mafia and let you confirm yourself to me. So maybe he's just waiting for either me to vote first (but I'm not totally dumb, so I'm not going to do that) or for you to vote first, so that he can have that "Oh, shit, Dizzy isn't snap voting me, he must be town then" and vote you and hope for me to mishammer.

It's a really awkward spot. Cause I really want to know why he isn't doing more to get clear, or what he is even considering, or if he's just biding his time here? And the more he's just meh-ing and hedging and not getting anywhere, the more I think he's just mafia who's trying to bide his time until this triangle clears up and he can have a come to jesus moment after you vote, and then hope for me to mishammer.

Which kind of makes me want to force him to vote first.

But then... I'm wasting my time, basically.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm i feel like dizzy calling c4's ISO "good" and calling my iso "Fine" is a deliberate prank

I haven’t gotten very far in your ISO. It’s too long and too wordy.

You did town case yourself to Alison this game already btw

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:46 pm I don't really know how to towncase myself in general.
I usually rely on others to clear me. I've had games where I get universally townread, don't actually campaign the fact that I'm obvious, then find myself under pressure because everyone just forgot the reasons I'm town. I've gotten chopped for my inability to towncase myself before.

Great.
What do you suppose I should do here then?
Cause I feel that if you’re in fact town, we’ve just lost. Again, you wanting to vote me would not be a threat to me if I was mafia. I wouldn’t care. I only care in the case that you are town.

So, what more are you wanting to gain from this game? What more are you able or willing to do to get to the correct choice if you’re town here?

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:29 pmSo are you obsessive over optimal play as a wolf?

I'm obsessive about having control.

This is true except for the fact that it applies to literally all of us. I'm FoSing you. You're FoSing spf. spf's FoSing me. Whoever starts the dome here is more likely than not to lose it.

Yeah, that's why it's kind of fucked.

SPF started out scum reading you over me. I think she basically would have to if she was a wolf. I would not buy a scum read on me at this point. And it's pretty clear that you have been FoSed more than me both from SPF and everyone else.

You "scum read" me, because you think SPF has to be town. You've been very vocal about saying SPF is sure town throughout the game. You kind of have to do this if you're a wolf probably, because you can't walk back your SPF read convincingly. However, walking back that read is pretty much your only option if you want to win, so I'm wondering why you aren't doing that. Or why you at least aren't trying to make me look scummy or whatever for SPF, if you think that is your path to victory. Alternatively, you have basically just given up and hope that me or SPF (most likely me) will make a mistake so that you can win. But I'm not going to vote before you are.

The difference here is that I don't have to FoS SPF or be as unsure as I am if I'm wolf here. If I was, I could play a little bit unsure, but ultimately just gone for it has to be you and game over.

So it's like, if you are town, why are you not trying to convince SPF that you are town here? You're basically just hanging out, telling us how none of us are really scummy. The answer is pretty much that you aren't town, and that you're just hoping I make a mistake and vote SPF before you vote for some reason?

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:15 pm No, I don't actually feel like you're a wolf on the basis of your own play at all.

What have you done that you don't think you could do as a wolf? I've seen w!spf try to push the limits of her wolf range and crash and burn horribly, and I've clearly never seen you do the same.

I mean, I'm a very good wolf, but my game is definitely different as the mafia alignment. First of all, I'm extremely obsessive and plan everything. I have never played a game as mafia where I've read so little and not known what's going on, and I don't think I could. I need to know how my teammates are doing and how the general state of the thread is to be able to manipulate it. My strength as a wolf is propping up my teammate and control the state of the thread. I mean, you wouldn't know this, but it's a thing.

Another thing I couldn't do, rather than wouldn't do, is actually tying Vulgard to Dya the way I did. That would require me to go "Let me tie the one teammate that is probably getting chopped soon to my one other teammate that is widely town read and will have to carry the game through some really specific word choice reading that nobody else will point out." This is something I couldn't do as wolf because it's just plain bad play imo. It's not how I ever play wolf at all, it wouldn't sit right with me. I don't purposefully trip up my teammates when there's no reason to, because I always approach the game as a very team oriented game.

Also, seriously, wtf do you think I'm trying to accomplish by trying to talk to you here? Do you think I'm just trolling you and the thread instead of taking SPF's side of things? You voting me is not a threat to me if I'm a wolf. It's only a threat to me if I'm town, specifically if we both are.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:06 pmI know this whole game has been a lesson in "godreads bad". That's somewhere in my head. On the other hand, the meta read on you is "Dizzy wouldn't do this as a wolf", and the meta read on spf is "spf couldn't do this as a wolf". That distinction just makes the spf meta read look miles stronger. It also makes the meta read on me stronger, if we want to go into that.

I mean, I'm not wolf, I'm clearly not a wolf imo. Like, do you actually feel that I am? Cause I don't think you do. So if you are in fact town here, you just need to realise that your read on SPF is incorrect. If you're saying she can't do this as scum, the solution is that you are scum.

There's a lot of things I couldn't do as wolf at all this game.
Why am I even spending time talking to you now if I'm wolf tbh lol.

So, it's like, and I wasn't going to talk about it, but it's something you would be aware of anyway so whatever, but it's like if you're mafia I want you to vote me and try to convince SPF that I'm the scum here. Who knows, maybe you can do it. If you're town, however, you should not do it, cause we'll just lose.

Honestly kind of wish SPF hadn't shown her hand so early on.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:52 am

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:26 am @c4e5g3d5 Let me know when you're around.

I'm here
Considering snapvoting you just to get my mind off of this game

Well, yes. That is what I was wondering. If you do this, you will lose the game, no matter your alignment though. You may or may not know this. =p

What are the things you're weighing or considering? Cause you haven't really said much about that.

@c4e5g3d5 Let me know when you're around.

Oki, I guess I should do the Vul thing.

SPF's ISO so far is like fiiiine, and she's probably more flowy than roboty, if I should look at that aspect of it.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:16 am i am stoned so if these posts were wolfy then i take no responsibility

Coffee tell = stoned tell

And how where they townier than anything else you posted today lol