The Syndicate

I generally refain from deadposting beyond super off topic stuff and a quick "go town" cause I'm worried I'll affect the game.

I didn't consider Marmot's posts to be rude, though.

juliets wrote: Oh gosh Fred I hope regardless of whether you are lynched today or not you will play again. You're playing a good game. I entered the game thinking you sounded civ and I'm entirely unsure at this point what I want to do in terms of a vote.

Fred already promised to play in an HCRealms/Syndicate full crossover game. No take backs.

Fredwood wrote: Am I FUCKING WIFOM???? I DONT KNOW WHAT IT MEANS...INCONCIEVABLE.

I'm so glad you're in this game.

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

Golden wrote:

Quin wrote:

Golden wrote:

Quin wrote:Something to throw out there is that Nacho might not have been the intended kill given marmots role flip.

I recall Golden mentioning his actual Night 1 target wasn't who he had initially targeted. Was that person Nacho?

No. I targeted Jay and ended up targeting Fredwood.

Would you agree with me if I said that this indicates that they're very likely not both bad? I don't see a reason marmot would target two of his teammates. One, maybe.

Full confession, I only just went back and read marmot's role now to be able to answer this (I was sneaking in a moment just to see how he flipped yesterday while with the wife's family). So I haven't dwelt on it, but that makes sense to me. Assuming that it was marmot that redirected me.

@Golden

Revisionist nothing. You left out your full results and encouraged the idea that Marmot was behind the targeting switch.

Now, maybe that was just a mistake. I have a lot of experience with the role. It's in most of our games. Maybe you don't.

But like I said, if you want me to believe you made a mistake, you need to be upfront with your other results, not beat around the bush like you're afraid someone's gonna bust your claim.

I'm sorry. This is a blatant lie. Prove what you are saying. I did not encourage or anything marmot. I did the opposite.

It's literally in the post I quoted. Just look up.

You say that JJJ and Fred not being the same alignment makes sense. You don't give your actual results in that post or your next several posts.

I voted Nut to get the night 2 item.

Sloonei wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:Why would Golden, who missed our day 2 scum lynch get the item while Sloonei and Speedchuck, who bagged our scummer at the last second or Nutella, who basically started the train on Marmot, did not?

I all sorts of have problems with the idea that Golden won that vote. The only way that happens is if the mafia is allowed to vote and voted for one of their own to get the item.

Way too convenient for Long Con, too.

If they are both scum, do you think they would link themselves together so strongly in the thread today? Especially given the possibility that I could shoot either one of them at any time to blow the whole thing up in their faces?

WIFOM.

How ballsy is too ballsy before you think a player like Golden wouldn't do a thing as scum? I've never played with scum Golden.

So I'm doing what I always do. Suppose LC and Golden are scum. Suppose they are town.

In which situation do the pieces all fit together?

If they're scum, they're taking a huge risk. If they're town....why did Golden get the night 2 item? Wouldn't think a single townie would vote for him after the day 2 we had.

Why would Golden, who missed our day 2 scum lynch get the item while Sloonei and Speedchuck, who bagged our scummer at the last second or Nutella, who basically started the train on Marmot, did not?

I all sorts of have problems with the idea that Golden won that vote. The only way that happens is if the mafia is allowed to vote and voted for one of their own to get the item.

Way too convenient for Long Con, too.

Golden wrote:

Quin wrote:

Golden wrote:

Quin wrote:Something to throw out there is that Nacho might not have been the intended kill given marmots role flip.

I recall Golden mentioning his actual Night 1 target wasn't who he had initially targeted. Was that person Nacho?

No. I targeted Jay and ended up targeting Fredwood.

Would you agree with me if I said that this indicates that they're very likely not both bad? I don't see a reason marmot would target two of his teammates. One, maybe.

Full confession, I only just went back and read marmot's role now to be able to answer this (I was sneaking in a moment just to see how he flipped yesterday while with the wife's family). So I haven't dwelt on it, but that makes sense to me. Assuming that it was marmot that redirected me.

@Golden

Revisionist nothing. You left out your full results and encouraged the idea that Marmot was behind the targeting switch.

Now, maybe that was just a mistake. I have a lot of experience with the role. It's in most of our games. Maybe you don't.

But like I said, if you want me to believe you made a mistake, you need to be upfront with your other results, not beat around the bush like you're afraid someone's gonna bust your claim.

speedchuck wrote:

Golden wrote:

Long Con wrote:Look, someone who isn't Sloonei got an item Night 2. Period. I'm not saying "speak up" because it could make you a target... but at least speak up if my life is on the line.

I just asked you if you gave anyone else something at any time and you said no!

I did get an item on night 2 as well. That's why I was asking. It's not a gun. It would quite possibly qualify as an invention.

This just in: LC is not scum.

Probably.

He's now tied heavily to Golden.

If LC is scum, Golden must be, though not necessarily the other way around.

Golden wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

Golden wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

speedchuck wrote:

Sloonei wrote:The biggest and most obvious hang up with Long Con's role claim is that we know that items are being passed out based on our travel destinations. I am uncertain that I believe we have a town inventor who is also giving out items along with this built-in game mechanic. It's not impossible, but I'm not sure how likely it is either. It does not help that LC claims to have given out no other items in the game, and that I am having a hard time justifying him giving me the gun of all people.

But at the same time, he knows what night you got it.

Did you hint at it enough for him to guess confidently?

I don't recall everything I've said about it today. I can easily go back and double check, but I never mentioned anything about it until today.

But we also had no item to vote on last night, and there would have been no reason for anyone to vote to give Sorsha an item on Night 1. Night 2 is the only night that makes sense for me to receive anything.

One thing I'd never expect of Long Con is for him to consider a fake claim in that much detail.

Hey, LC, did you give anyone anything else at any time?

All of us Syndicate regulars are in uncharted waters with regards to role claims. I don't know what to expect from anyone.

That's fair, but you shouldn't expect Long Con to think anything through in that much detail except as a host. This is a man who will ply crazy schemes that are bound to fail because he doesn't think them through. If Long Con is lying, he got lucky about getting the day right, I can assure you.

Lucky nothing. Night 2 is literally the only time Sloonei could have gotten the vote item.

If I ask you to pick a number between 1 and 1 and you pick 1, I don't declare you psychic or lucky.

Golden wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Golden wrote:What 'useful gem of information' do you think is in there? Because I can only think of one, and that is knowing who I've targeted, and I think that's of more use to scum than town.

The believability of your claim does hinge on those targets largely, because the last two night kills have been pretty obvious targets -- the sorts of targets often watched by watchers.

Perhaps instead of revealing the targets immediately, you could start by revealing why you didn't watch Silver Lantern or nutella.

I did initially watch Nutella, but I changed my mind halfway through the night.

Silver lantern made no particular impression on me by the time I had to ask sprit if he'd accept my ability early. I don't remember when the vig claim came.

I've been thinking of this role as being as useful in knowing who to protect in the thread as who to go after. I've heard of watchers but never seen one in action, so I'll admit I haven't had the clear a thought process as 'find the killer'. I've been thinking more 'who's likely to be targeted'. I want as much info as possible to help me solve the game.

In terms of my ability to identify the kill target - well you're right that Nutella was obvious in hindsight and I should have stuck, but I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread to the point where I would ask for a replacement if sprit had them available. There's so much going on and to ask me to pick the exact target the baddies are nking is, or feels like, the same thing as criticising me for my time deficit, which I just can't help.

But in my opinion even saying 'this is the philosophy for how to pick my target as a watcher' seems to be a leg up for the baddies and I believe I have a pattern that I'd need to change if I revealed each one.

No. Claiming watcher is helpful to the baddies.

Claiming watcher, saying you targeted the claimed cop who is still alive and they were only targeted by *obvious doctor* is helpful to the baddies.

Claiming your target was switched between two players and letting people formulate theories based on the idea that they were busdriven by Marmot until I pointed out that was impossible based on the results you received helps the baddies.

Telling us who was targeted by nobody on two nights doesn't help the baddies at all. What it does is allow townies to bust your claim if you are lying.

If you're a reverse tracker and you're the only one to target a player, you messed up. It is hands down the most powerful standard town role, essentially being a cop, doctor, lie detector and self confirmer rolled into one. Not using it properly doesn't make you scum but it does mean you need to explain yourself.

speedchuck wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

Long Con wrote:*facepalm* Yes, I do know. Night 2, by the way, JJJ.

Oh. Okay then. This is correct.

I reread the thread. Looks like LC was being sarcastic when he said "my mistake". Problem is, a gun being in the night vote is plausible.

Still, being confident enough to predict the night gives me good feelings, and this gift/inventor/whatever is not similar to other claims.
Feeling good about the LC.

Devil's advocate:

There were only two possible nights Sloonei could have gotten a gun from the item vote because there was no item last night. On night 1, Sloonei was Sorsha and unlikely to receive any item votes.

If LC was scum convinced he was going to be shot, he could reasonably assume the gun was a night item (cause so many people have claimed, making the item likely a voted one and not an inventor one) and reasonably assume that Sloonei got it on night 2. Note the hesitation in answering the question. Like he didn't expect to be asked that and needed a second to figure out the answer.


LC, why did you give Sloonei the gun? Can you prove that gun came from you? Do you have a provable night 1 or 3 action?

Long Con wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

Long Con wrote:I'm sorry, did you get that gun from an item vote, Sloonei? My mistake.

I don't know. You tell me.

You really don't know?

You really don't know?

Mafia inventor/gift giver is not unheard of on the Realms but it is more often a town or occasionally third party role.

Assuming LC actually gave Sloonei that gun, what would you give the odds of his alignment being, Speedchuck? I want this question based solely on power claim, not LC's posts.

Also finding my suspicion of Golden going up.

Night 2, we lost the confirmed vigilante. Night 3, we lost the confirmed cop.

If I was the watcher, my targets would have been Silver night 2 and Nutella or JJJ night 3.

Where was Golden?

I want Golden's night results.

Claiming watcher puts a target on your back. Doing so without bringing forward good information is unnecessary.

I can understand some hesitancy to reveal night information due to the possibility of outing say, the doctor, but I think that ship has sailed.

We already ran into trouble with Golden misinterpreting his information (thinking Marmot had busdriver JJJ and Fred). I wouldn't be surprised (assuming Golden is town) if there was a useful gem of information for the town in those results.

Part of me wants to believe the stump claim. Townie janitor, Leroy are weakened town roles, as is the odd night doctor and three shot tracker. So there's some precedence for quasihelpful town powers.

I do have a problem with Scotty saying he was going to self confirm night 2 and supposedly getting blocked, then supposedly forgetting to self confirm night 3 and now he is implying that he doesn't want to use the ability at all, stating he's basically vanilla and that he's intentionally not activated to keep his vote.

I see this a contradictory anti town bluff. He wanted the credit of being able to self confirm and the credit of trying to self confirm without the intention (ability) to actually do it.

Sorry. JJJ claimed three shot tracker.

speedchuck wrote:I don't know that I recall a single claim in this game that was actually made for a genuinely good reason. Correct me if I'm wrong.

A list of claims would be nice. I'll make one myself in the next couple of hours if nobody has one lying around.

Basically agree. LC and Juliet's claims were understandable, though.

JJJ claimed tracker.
Golden claimed watcher.
Quin claim odd? night doctor.
Scotty claimed stump.
Sloonei claimed bodyguard.
Juliets and Dizzy claimed protective abilities.

LC claims to have given Sloonei a gun, implying gift giver or inventor.
I've claimed targets, implying a role that one would prefer to target townies with.

Hi, Juliets.

Point of clarification. You have a lot of 3s in your reads but you also list two players as scum by process of elimination.

Could you walk me through what separates your 3s from your 4s?
Linki- Now that Straw looks better to you, who looks worse? You got a ton in the middle.




Regarding Fred (for Fred and Juliets) and our combined meta.

I don't remember a specific time but I'd be surprised if I hadn't burned Fred sometime in the past. I have a few really good scum moments when I pulled the wool over the town's eyes. These were usually with creative use of night powers. I used a note pass to make a townie think he had been recruited into my nonexistent cult in one game. In another, I claimed serial townie Freddy (vigilante that must target a nonposting "sleeping" player every night, like Freddy Kruger. We have short day phases.) when I was the serial killer and targeted a bulletproof player when everybody talked so it looked like I only killed when people missed phases. I've figured out the one major good guy character the mod didn't put in the game so I could claim him, reinterpreted writeups to make my scum character seem like a hero, bluffed info gathering powers to make opposing scum look bad...

Point is, a good chunk of the Realms has a "that time Jack fooled me" story but it all comes from twisting my abilities into something unexpected so that I can make my scum powers look like town powers. I'm a falseclaiming mastermind and an ability mastermind, not a master at appearing genuine when I'm not or having townieish progressions or appearing to scumhunt like a townie when I'm not. HCRealms meta HIGHLY revolves around claiming and night results. I'm much more dastardly over there and I get why Fred could have a problem shedding base "never trust Jack" suspicion.



That all said, my problem with Fred is that he's still being too passive. That's normal for Fred and he's doing much better here in terms of scumhunting (or fake scumhunting) than his general HCRealms style but I need more. What I'm getting from Fred is all talk, no action. His suspicions come from odds (chances are, one of the loud arguers is bad) more than specific points about specific posts looking scummy or dishonest. He's too worried about people being fair to him. What he should be doing is separating "unfair" points into two categories: honest misinterpretations/culture clash from townies and deliberate shade throwing from scummers. He needs to follow his reads all the way through. If I'm his third suspect and he says he's suspicious of me...10 times, I need way more than that from him against the people he supposedly suspects more than me.

Maybe Fred's a townie having trouble adjusting to this style and getting over his ingrained suspicion of me. But I think that he's having more trouble adjusting because he's scum. I think he's being somewhat passive and leaning on weaker odds based arguments because he's afraid to stick out and afraid to be caught in a lie. That's why Fred is scum on my rainbow list.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:@JJJ

Suppose you magically know I am town.

I'm one universe, I truthfully claim doctor of some sort. In another, I truthfully claim not doctor.

What does each scenario do for your reads on Quin and Juliets?

The former: This applies, in concert with my theory that there might be a conglomeration of similar roles that don't function normally/properly.

The latter: I couldn't really say without further clarification. To make sense of your targets demands clarity of role function. This is not a request for you to reveal that.

Former: Noted.

Later: I mean, does your three slightly different doctor variants theory evolve into a two doctor variants theory or go out the window if I was say....a guide?

I swear to god if someone else claims doctor, I'm renaming this game Spartacus mafia.

@JJJ

Suppose you magically know I am town.

I'm one universe, I truthfully claim doctor of some sort. In another, I truthfully claim not doctor.

What does each scenario do for your reads on Quin and Juliets?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

juliets wrote:Yes, I do. I was waiting on clarification from the host on something which I now have and given the answer to your question, I do not believe Quin is telling the truth. I am not claiming doctor.

The plot thickens.

Sloonei wrote:The thing that gives Quin an advantage over Jack in my eyes is that Quin has been unafraid to get right in the middle of things all game long. He's repeatedly thrust himself into the spotlight and been comfortable there. Jackofhearts has been around, but I can't say that he's been as directly involved in as many things as Quin.

I also have begun to feel increasingly good that at least one of Long Con and Juliets is bad, and I've seen no reason why they can't both be. The radio silence across the board (from everyone, not just those two) since shortly after I exposed my gun has been intriguing. We've had a lot of names lurking at the bottom of the page and most of them are silent. Speak up, anyone!

So shoot Long Con.


The gun doesn't janitor, right?


Why Juliets?

Roller coaster of a day.

Reads beyond Quin. (Shifting from rainbow style to confidence on a scale of 1 to five style).

Jack - Town 5/5

Jimmy, Sloonei, Dizzy, Speed - Town 4/5. Already explained these.

Juliets - Town 2/5. I like her reads. Feels consistent, careful. Trying to solve. Not overly concerned about herself

Fred - Scum 2/5. He's trying but despite my prodding, he's still non committal. Makes weird assumptions like "One of these loud people must be scum" when he should know better. I mean, now with me and Quin, okay, but that was his stance awhile ago.

Scotty - Scum 1/5. Attack on me feels opportunistic. Where is he now? Blocked, then forgets his action. Okay, then.

Eloh - Town 1/5. You convinced me. Shoulda tracked her to see if someone was submitting actions for her. Too late, now. Still. Marmot/Eloh meta is not my strong point and she has no posts so weak read.

LC - Scum 3/5. Pushes to make INH look bad early but doesn't really follow up. Convenient. Says both me and Speed are bad. Gets mad when I take that to mean we must be bad together or when asked to explain how that makes any sense. Expect him to shake his head and be like "Well, Jack shouldn't have been so suspicious" when I die. Generally, I have a lot of mind meld with LC. He says things about strategy, mechanics and reads that could have come out of my mouth. At least, he did in Unfortunate Events. Hasn't happened here at all.

Sonjei? Fuck. Scum 1/5, I guess. Coasting. Taking hard stances to look honest but doesn't follow through or really scum hunt. He did this in Unfortunate Events. Was he scum there? Think so. Should double check.

Golden - Town 3/5. Feels like Mr. Poe. Feels legit. I like that he thinks I'm town. I admit that leaves me open for pocketing. Still, nothing pinging me at all. I think he's town.

Straw - Town 2/5. Like Scotty, weighs in strongly, then disappears. I feel like I've agreed with his reads more often, haven't seen opportunism and simply by POE, he's likely town.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Quin and Jack:

What do you think about the prospects of this being a town/town drama?

20% chance.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I don't envy those who must endure question hell from Sloonei and I simultaneously.

I'm okay with it.

@Quin

Explain the timeline.

You said you had info you planned to give. I took that to mean "I am the doctor and I targeted Nutella." Then you said you didn't plan to claim.

So which is it?

Sloonei wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:@Jimmy

I'm not going to discuss my role further. You can speculate if you like but I'm afraid my input will give things away, which I do not think is in the town's best interest.

What inspired you to suggest those 5 specific roles earlier?

JJJ asked me to.

If you mean why did I suggest any roles, I did it because I didn't want to fully claim and I didn't want people getting bogged down like "could there be two docs?" etc. It's not about a conflict between my role and Quin's. That's not a power claim, either.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Jack:

You knew I was a tracker before anyone else. You had the unique advantage of seeing what I did with Quin on Day 1 alongside my poking of you, and you drew the correct conclusion:

Spoiler: show

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:You guys are so paranoid.

JJJ, my night went great. If you're town, hope that helps.

See how easy that was?

Maybe I'm lying. Maybe that's not useful to JJJ.

Maybe JJJ is a townie reverse tracker and I say I think someone as targeted me and we have a run at them.

Maybe there are things beyond roleblicking that can happen to a guy and a thumbs up or thumbs down won't be the same as claiming info gatherer.

Maybe JJJ is scum pretending to be a tracker or town just throwing up smoke. Maybe when he has to claim later, this exchange saves or sinks him.

I can dismiss most of these maybes but this is the way Realms meta sees it. It's one place I think our meta is strong, even if "How was your night" usually doesn't effect the game.

That said, Realms meta setups looooove trackers and reverse trackers. I'm a big fan of the former.

Despite this unique insight you had into my role, which I freely allowed you, you still suspected me heavily on Days 2 and 3 prior to nutella revealing me as innocent. Why?

Cause claiming tracker doesn't make it so, same as claiming doctor or vague self confirming role.

Just about every HCRealms game has a tracker and watcher (reverse tracker). Sometimes, the scum has a tracker, too. The meta developed in such a way as to avoid outright claiming tracker (a relatively weak role) or watcher (a very strong role) but still allow for catching scum offensive roles with "How was your night?" Sometimes, townies just ask this to hear more from a player or scummers ask to try to soft claim a tracking role. But the point is, there's no fishing problem.

So without necessarily believing you were 100% town, I offered up my insight.

As for why I thought you were perhaps scum, a lot of it had to do with the Nacho kill me+Wigly tinfoil, which I hated. I also thought your defense of Dizzy on day 1 was scummy in a similar way to Speed's. That is, you focused a lot on how Dizzy had not slipped without talking about the real issue, if it was a fakeslip or fake fake slip. Yet you didn't really town read Dizzy from this, which I saw as leaving your options open, should the winds turn against Dizzy (might have just been Speedchuck who did this).

There was something on Day 2 that I didn't like but it doesn't come to mind right away. Would it be helpful to dig and try to remember? I bet I can. It just feels counterproductive to repeat reasons I used to suspect a player I now strongly think is town. Like that's only helpful for making you believe me, not in catching scum. Yet repeating what were ultimately inaccurate arguements against you...to get you to trust me? Feels unlikely. Even if it works, Sloonei might just shoot me. I'll put in the effort if you think it'll help, though. Advantage of being confirmed town.

Quin wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

Quin wrote:Jack cares more about arguing why my decision was stupid than he does about arguing why it was a scum move.

A total misrepresentation.

Either you're town and made a mistake or you're scum and told a lie.

You said it yourself that you came in planning to claim doctor. Then, when pressured a bit by one person, you claimed doctor. Now you say it was done badly?

I think it is more likely to wanted to claim doctor because you are scum and you thought it would make you look good.

You've been inconsistent in your claim (was it planned or a response to pressure? It has something to do with your read on Nut so that you could accuse me of fishing and tell JJJ to back off...but you can't remember what?).

I'm not focused on you being stupid. I don't think you're stupid. I think you're bad.




@Jimmy

I'm not going to discuss my role further. You can speculate if you like but I'm afraid my input will give things away, which I do not think is in the town's best interest.

I literally just said the opposite of this.

Claiming doctor is a stupid role to fake claim.

Quin wrote:Okay.

The problem I've created for myself is that I came into this Day with information I wanted to share and did it in probably the worst way possible. I'm gonna lay it all out on the table instead because why not

nutella should not be dead. I protected her. I protect on odd nights. From that I've concluded either I was role blocked, or the killer has a strongman role.

Was it a plan or not, Quin?

Quin wrote:Jack cares more about arguing why my decision was stupid than he does about arguing why it was a scum move.

A total misrepresentation.

Either you're town and made a mistake or you're scum and told a lie.

You said it yourself that you came in planning to claim doctor. Then, when pressured a bit by one person, you claimed doctor. Now you say it was done badly?

I think it is more likely to wanted to claim doctor because you are scum and you thought it would make you look good.

You've been inconsistent in your claim (was it planned or a response to pressure? It has something to do with your read on Nut so that you could accuse me of fishing and tell JJJ to back off...but you can't remember what?).

I'm not focused on you being stupid. I don't think you're stupid. I think you're bad.





@Jimmy

I'm not going to discuss my role further. You can speculate if you like but I'm afraid my input will give things away, which I do not think is in the town's best interest.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:Is claiming going to save me? If not, I don't see a need to claim.

Whether it saves you should not be your sole concern. If you are a civilian and die without leaving us legacy information, then that is a wasted opportunity. Are you saying then that your night actions would not be insightful at all?

You know my night targets. Only Silver's kill was janitored. Shoot me, lynch me or the mafia kills me. There's your legacy information.

So what's the problem? It only makes a difference at all if it makes a difference when I'm alive.

Sloonei wrote:Quin claiming doctor is helpful in the universe where information helps the town piece the game together.

How so?

If I claim even doctor or two shot day unculter or Oompa Loompa but I can't back up my claim and we're in a CF mafia so there could be three Oompa Loompas or none, how would any of these claims help the town piece the game together?

Sloonei wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Quin, Jack, how do you guys feel?

Like a townie beam holding up a run down house that scum Quin and Long Con are hidding in.

Knock me down and kill those goons.

When did Quin first enter your mind as a top suspect?

Quin started falling when I caught up and realized the case against you for liking Marmot was shit.

Further, when the case against Dizzy was confirmed super shit.

Somewhere around there, he became a top suspect. I basically dislike his entire defense/offense today. That reminds me.


@Quin

You ever going to explain what you being the doctor had to do with your suspicion of Nutella? Or what you think the town gains from you claiming doctor?

Dyslexicon wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Not necessarily. He listed the following as possible roles he might possess: doctor, bodyguard, nexus, guide, and "unculter" (irrelevant in a game with no cult).

Why is he not just outright claiming then, if he's going this far?
Nexus, I've seen in use differently than how he explains it. Basically I'm used to this being a passive role and an X-shot, which redirects any action being made against you to a random target. I've also only seen it used for non-town roles. It's rather rare.
Guide, I hadn't even heard of. You
Doctor is problematic if Quin claims doctor, as is bodyguard.
I think Nut being strongman killed is pretty likely.

Is claiming going to save me? If not, I don't see a need to claim.

Suppose I am a nightkilled preventer of some sort. Does it benefit the town or the mafia to claim that? Probably neither cause I'm probably dead but if I live? Benefits the mafia to know I'm a doctor. Maybe if they think I'm not, it let's me save a townie cause the scum leaves me alone.

Suppose I am a different support type role. Does it benefit the town to know this or the mafia? If I survive, better the mafia waste a block/misdirect or even a nightkill on a suspected player because they worry I am a doctor.

In either situation, leaving the mafia in the dark outweighs any tiny sliver of credit my claim might get me.

This is why I can't get over Quin claiming doctor unprovoked just because he wanted to. There is no universe where that play is helpful to the town in the least.

Sorry if I'm leaving stuff unanswered. Dinner with the family. Back in two hours.

Long Con wrote:

Sloonei wrote:I am caught up and I still think that one of JOH/Quin is bad and I also have a gun.

Jack, between the two. Quin is way too believable as Doc.

Can you elaborate on how Quin is a believable doc?

What, besides him claiming doc, makes you think he is a doc?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Quin, Jack, how do you guys feel?

Like a townie beam holding up a run down house that scum Quin and Long Con are hidding in.

Knock me down and kill those goons.

Long Con wrote:No I didn't. I named the two of you as my top suspicions. YOU are the one who made it "bad together".

No, you said you think me and Speed are both bad.

If there's no sker, no cult and we're both bad, how could we not be bad together?

Do you think we are bad separately?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'd like to know why JOH elected to ask that question about speedchuck and Scotty but not the others in the orange/red zones.

Cause if I wasn't me, I'd have noted that Jack and Scotty are not w/w and Jack and Speed are not w/w.

I'm not sure how I should react to so many players who hunt scum one at a time. You guys know we're looking for a team of baddies, right?

Scotty wrote:With all the w/w shiitake that Jack did on Day 1, I pose this exercise for him:

Jack, who do you think would be the most likely and unlikely pairing of w/w IF you were in fact wolf.

Do it as an impartial observer looking in, since you did that so wel on Day 1

I love excercises, even if they won't help me avoid lynch.

My obvious partner if I was a wolf (and I'm not) is Fred. I've been encouraging him all game, saying I'm okay with his scummy behavior. Now, I've reached the point where I think he is actually scum but that could be seen as distancing. Additionally, Fred keeps saying I'm suspicious but I'm not his top target or even his number 2. Distancing, unwilling to lynch me. (Jesus Christ, if I argue myself into a noose...)

My obvious not partner is Speed. For one, Speed is clear town, lynching scum with less than 5 minutes in the day. Secondly, I would hope my badgering of Speed's Silver Lantern fishing and subsequent calls for his lynch came off genuine. That'd be real distance, not potentially faked distance. Speed has been rather willing to lynch me as well. Not to say I'm scummy. To actually lynch me. (I think he's doing his best.

Some players say Fred and I are both suspects. This rings truthful (though wrong). Some players say Speed and I are bad (or you and I are bad). This rings dishonest or at least lazy.



Now that I've entertained that, entertain this.

You daycop me as town. What then? Does that change your suspect list at all beyond me? Does that knowledge make my accusers look bad or good? Which ones?

Long Con wrote: Guys, I'm just proving how ridiculous this post is:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

Long Con wrote:And juliets, your coloration in that list wasn't because I have specific suspicions of you to point out. Most of the list is in relation to the other folks on the list, especially the middle area. Gut feels. You could have easily been on the lighter yellow side. You're just not green because, well, why should I read you as green/Civ? Convince me that's where you should be, and maybe you can be movin' on up.

JJJ
Quin
Golden
Dyslexicon
Sloonei
Elohcin
juliets
Soneji
insertnamehere
Fredwood
Scotty
Strawhenge
Speedchuck
Jackofhearts

Again, Speedchuck and Jack are those that I specifically think are bad. JJJ, Golden, Quin, Dizzy, I specifically think are good. The rest I have generally ordered in what I recall feeling about them. I know I'm not playing this game at the level that some of you are, so sorry, please don't expect me to have grand cases. And don't ask me to prove my suspicion by being able to name your teammates - that's a bullshit request, and really just makes me suspect you more. Like, don't defend yourself - send out a verbal trap instead to make your accuser look like his accusations are invalid. Nah buddy.

A trap?

I'm asking you to explain a contradiction. How is pointing out a contradiction and asking you to explain it scummy?

You didn't say either me or Speed is bad. You said that you think we're both bad. As in together. Makes no sense. Why don't you want to talk about that?

Jack wants to twist the narrative so I can't suspect two different people without demonstrating how they're bad together. Just showing how that's illogical.

You're the one that said we were bad together.

How is it twisting to ask you why?

Long Con wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:Is fake claiming never a thing here?

I see Nut, JJJ and Silver with verifiable claims.

Quin and Scotty could be vanilla given their claims and the actual results we've seen.

What's the reasoning behind automatically believing such role claims as several people (some confirmed town) have done?

I don't understand.

How are Nut, JJJ, and Silver's claims connected to each other?

Why are Quin and Scotty vanilla together?

You have to explain that or it makes no sense.

They aren't?

Nut claimed daycop then had his cop results appear in the write up. Silver's kill happened and we can see Wigly died. JJJ confirmed my claimed night target. These are proven powers and I expect people to read these people better because of them. (These players happen to be trusted for other reasons.)

Quin claimed odd night doctor but there's nothing proving or even implying he is. Scotty claimed the ability to prove himself at night somehow but for two nights, it hasn't happened. There's no proof he actually has this ability. Both Quin and Scotty could make these claims no matter what their roles actually are, even if they are vanilla. (I don't actually think they are vanilla.)

Now, this doesn't make Scotty or Quin scum. Most of us don't have night action proof at this point. The key bit is that since there's no evidence of these claimed powers, there should be no credit gained by claiming these powers. Some players (specifically, Golden) have weighed in on these claims positively. This I cannot understand.

Does that make sense?

@JJJ

Your analysis of the Marmot/Eloh comments makes a lot of sense.

Revising my read on Eloh from a tentative scum to a tentative town. Obviously, I want more from her or her replacement but I no longer view Marmot's posts about her as indicative of her being scum.

Would also love any evaluations of my previously stated group, especially Sonjei and Straw.

Would love someone besides JJJ and I to weigh in on Marmot's evaluation of Eloh's meta.

I've read it as a slight point against her. JJJ read it as a null thing.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:So:

JOH isn't claiming or not claiming doctor. He could be soft claiming of the other non-cult roles he listed. He targeted Quin N1. Quin didn't experience any hindrances to his knowledge. There are some mafia-oriented roles suitable to Jack here:

Roleblocker (a doctor Quin protecting someone other than the kill target wouldn't know about being blocked unless sprityo explicitly tells him).

Role cop (identifies Quin's role)

Redirecting role (odd next to Marmot but technically possible)

Probably other possibilities I can't recall right now on my phone

JOH: is there anything in your posts or targets that you think could discount these possibilities?

Probably wouldn't have bothered redirecting or roleblocking you but I can't prove I targeted you last night.

If I blocked Nut night 2, would he have been able to use a day power?