The Syndicate

Long Con wrote:What was the case on Sorsha, by the way?

Everyone but Dom in the civvies had BTSC with someone and the VFD and cult were known.

That left Sorsha and Dom. Dom managed to lynch you so the town figured he was the super voter.....though with as many votes as you bid on the bowl, a single voter would have made it a coin flip.

I held out basically waiting for Dom. I was pretty dang sure it was Sorsha but Golden was eyeing me. I would have sided with the scum/cult if it was up to me cause I trusted Sorsha, Quin, Daisy and MP not to kill me more than I trusted Sig, Golden, Dom and DDL not to. If Sorsha had a buddy or was innocent, her lynch would have potentially lost me the game and I was willing to take 100% tomorrow over 99% today. Plus, if Dom was Jerome, I figured it wasn't up to me and the town would win. I had Sig pegged as the other townie mason after DDL basically vouched for him. Didn't realize it was a temporary BTSC. Golden didn't know how right he was about there being trust or not. I wanted Quin to win but I wasn't gonna sacrifice my win to help him. I just trusted him more. Figured the town would (perhaps rightly) sacrifice me to win with the cult while cult would (perhaps also rightly) sacrifice the town to win with me.

Good game, town, especially Sig and Golden.

Fist bump to LC and Quin. So glad to get teammates and also not be scum for my first game. Too bad we didn't know Dom was Jerome or we could have still lynched Sorsha yesterday and got a win for Quin.

Balls.

actionS

DFaraday wrote:

Quin wrote:

Dom wrote:DFaraday, two questions before I vote....


1) If a team only has one member left, can that member use their role power (like a block) + a kill at the same time?

2) If yes, then can that block be used to block the kill?

Repeat of my earlier question as well:

If a role blocker were to role block the PoIG, what would be the result if that person tried to kill somebody but also role blocked the initial role blocker first?

If someone tried to block the PoIG, PoIG's actions for the night would fail. If that's what you're trying to say.

I think this was the key bit.

sig wrote:I'm 100% sure Dom is town, mafia Dom wouldn't have exposed himself by voting for LC. Plus I'd say I have a good grasp of Doms meta, we were mafia together in Star Wars as a team of two, so I trust my read of him.

So half of your platform is "Let's kill Jack" and the other half of your platform is "Trust me, Jack."

Never run for public office.

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:Additionally troubling is how the Sorsha reads turned from town to only possible mafia member overnight with no Sorsha posts inbetween.

What changed?

Why is Dom town? Dom's alignment is important for determining Sig's imo. (Cause I think hes a specific townie is unconvincing. I need reasons or at least key posts).


Linki: For the clear? I was mechanically cleared and nobody cared. Unconvincing argument. Why would Sorsha shoot herself? Why would the scum shoot Sorsha if she wasn't scum? No good answer to either of those questions.

There is either trust, or there isn't trust. All I want is a straight answer from you, are you going to stick with the town, or help the cult. That's all it comes down to now. The consequence for helping the cult is that, by pushing the day into extra phases, you could risk your own death. The consequence of helping the town is your buddy quin could lose. You're in a shit position.

I already gave you everything you needed to deduce dom's role, yesterday and today, if you want to try, so that you can get yourself in to the mindset of why dom is a townie. But, for me, it's just about picking a side at this point.

The thing that gets me is that if Sorsha is the last scummer and Sig gets lynched....so what? I don't see Poe, Sunny or Sorsha taking a shot at me tonight.

If Sig or Dom is the last scummer and Sorsha gets lynched...I'm probably dead. Sig and Dom have both proved unwilling to listen to me and more than happy to rid themselves of VFD players. Plus, the VFD won't know who to block.

So I need to be sure it's Sorsha and not Dom and/or Sig. Sorsha and Dom aren't posting anything helpful and Sig is openly hostile. Plenty of time to change that, though.

If you think you can end the game with or without me, have at it and good luck.

Additionally troubling is how the Sorsha reads turned from town to only possible mafia member overnight with no Sorsha posts inbetween.

What changed?

Why is Dom town? Dom's alignment is important for determining Sig's imo. (Cause I think hes a specific townie is unconvincing. I need reasons or at least key posts).


Linki: For the clear? I was mechanically cleared and nobody cared. Unconvincing argument. Why would Sorsha shoot herself? Why would the scum shoot Sorsha if she wasn't scum? No good answer to either of those questions.

@Golden

So if Sorsha is the last scummer and the poig, she could block and kill in one night? Block and kill herself? Why do this instead of just blocking and killing say...you? Doesn't this also cause a paradox? Roleblocker roleblocking herself.

Sig's suggestion that Sunny shoot at the VFDs says he doesn't think the game ends today, which is troublesome.

sig wrote:

Quin wrote:

Golden wrote:It's simple really. If we were to give the cult a break and let them try to win, sorsha just kills a cult member to delay their victory and put them in the same position tomorrow. Town doesn't have the luxury of being merciful.

Yes you do. The Vfd exists.

The VFD doesn't help us that much at all. Especially since the mafia should know who they are. So just ignore the VFD and take out civs until they wi.

Personally I'd say if Sunny wasn't sure who to shoot they should aim for the VFD, no point in maybe killing townies. However, I think the chances of the civs winning this phase is high.

@Golden I'm pretty certain Dom is a civ, I don't think a mafia Dom would vote for.

Also do we think Poe was blocked last night? It could explain the no kill from Olaf, but there was an attempted kill. I'm very unsure here, the final baddies/baddie has to be between MP, Daisy, and Sorsha.

So I suggest we decide on one, I guess Sorsha, and go for it.

linki: I gave you a recap Dom?

It's like you want me to lynch you.

Golden wrote: Explain to me this - if you were on sprit's team, and there was a bus going in, is there any world in which you as a team allow the votes between sprit and LC to be tied so as to clear three people?

Sorsha was clearly blocked. Look at the person of indeterminate gender role!

Are we cleared, though?

We were only cleared as not Troupe and even then, Sig said he believed I was Troupe yesterday and voted to lynch a person I said I was sure wasn't scum. Doesn't seem like those "confirmations" hurt the mafia much.

I don't get your point about the person of indeterminate gender. Sorsha couldn't block and kill at the same time. That would take two

Golden wrote: Third, there are two apparently civilian killers out there. There is no reason for townies to presume that only townies would want to get their hands on the bowl. I see no good reason why sig or dom ought to consider LC to be town even if they knew he had the bowl. Before yesterday came, I actually bid what I get to prevent LC getting his hands on it because I was afraid LC was Olaf.

So, no, I don't think that LC was voted to get the bowl out of play. That's not to say it's impossible, but it seems unlikely.

LC was a rolechecker. That's dangerous to the mafia.

Golden wrote:So... MP, Daisy and Quin might end up voting a civilian in order to delay the end of the game.

Jack, what would you do?
Sorsha would vote in self defence, obviously.

That might mean that only me, sig, DDL and Dom are actually voting for a town victory today. And that's assuming none of them are cult as well.

I guess Ishmael just became a threat.

I'd pursue my win condition.

Lots of wild and not so wild theories floating about.

Priority is to determine how many mafia members there are.

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:@Golden

Maybe you think there's no world where a mafia member busses a teammate at the very beginning without provocation but I've seen it happen, specifically when the player that got thrown under the bus wasn't going to be able to participate much and would have replaced out if he hadn't been lynched.

Are any of those situations where the numbers were as against scum teams as they are here? Were there two teams that could kill each other? Were there two potential civ vigs?

There are extenuating circumstances here. I saw it happen once at RYM, that someone bussed their teammate without provocation on day one, and won the game for it. But they never had any risk of natural attrition to their team, because they held the only kill.

Here, we were talking about a 4 person scum group out of 25 players.

In the game I linked to, the setup starts here (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost. ... count=1748).

18 townies, 2 serial killers, 2 cult recruiters (one that would kill and then his targets would resurrect as cult a few days later and another that would "corrupt" his recruits and they'd turn cult if they ever lynched a townie), 1 survivor and a 7 member mafia team. Major rule differences on the site are majority required for lynching, claiming and infodumping allowed (hell, encouraged) and generally all kills happen every night instead of mafias/sks alternating.

So, the mafia in question had more expendable members and less alternative lynch candidates (at least at the beginning). Both games would require the scum to survive quite awhile and not get shot up at night to win. I think that's basically the heart of what you're asking, yeah?

Rokk (the busser) lead the town around, lynching a couple neutrals and drawing doctor and bodyguard protection for much of the game. That was honestly the biggest advantage to the tactic. The mafia got free kills the townies of their choice because the "most townie" player was actually mafia. The bussed player had a powerful ability (doctoring, essentially, quite useful with like 6 indy/town killing roles) but also a downside (could win with the town if he was the last mafia member and a specific townie, the character's sister, was still alive).

The details of the "Sig could be Troupe" theory are very reminiscent of that game with a powerful scummer with an ability that could backfire and a player that can't participate getting lynched early and the lynch leader basically arguing "I wouldn't do that if I was mafia."

That said, I'm not discounting your take on Sig's meta or the differences between that game and this one.



Linki: I've been selectively replying. I"m at least a page behind. Someone asked "What would I do" and I'm gonna have to read a bit before I can answer.

@Golden

Maybe you think there's no world where a mafia member busses a teammate at the very beginning without provocation but I've seen it happen, specifically when the player that got thrown under the bus wasn't going to be able to participate much and would have replaced out if he hadn't been lynched.

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost. ... stcount=56
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost. ... tcount=162
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost. ... count=1627

@Sig

I don't play neutral roles pro town or anti town. I play them the same as I play town or mafia, always in pursuit of my win condition.

I'm not mad at you. I'm suspicious of you. I don't vote for players cause I'm mad at them. See my earliest of exchanges with Nacho and my commentary on Golden voting Quin.

Golden wrote:You have reason to think sig is town, which is the fact that he successfully took down people from both sides with no apparent agenda. It's not like he just joined the sprit wagon. He created it.

Bussing is a thing.

I asked the town if Sig is known to bus teammates. No response.

Cause here's the thing. All game, I've been voting with the town. I haven't been the best scum hunter but I'm trying.

Yesterday, Sig refused to listen to me. He supposedly ISOed me (without quoting a single one of my posts) and supposedly couldn't figure out my role. He continually asked for information that would likely get me modkilled if I were to give it, exclaimed extreme (fake?) frustration that he couldn't figure out what I was talking about. He repeatedly asked me to answers to his questions but failed to address the answers (like why LC and I voted Quin) and instead pretended like I was doing something that didn't make sense. He further came up with the tinfoiliest of tinfoils complete with made up Olaf powers (even though he now claims to think Olaf is dead) in order to say that LC, Quin and I were scum together. At the same time, Dom voted LC without saying so on thread, without saying anything about suspecting LC and without answering me when I asked him why.

Sig claims to not have thought his action would lynch LC but he was flat out told that if Quin didn't get enough votes, someone else would die. If he thought his vote on LC would have no effect, why not just vote Quin? Or nobody? He voted LC to kill LC and he did. Why? I don't know but he killed an information gatherer who had BTSC with a couple other players that weren't baddies. That's a super town unfriendly action.

Contrast Golden, who put a bad vote down but seemed to actually be trying to figure out what was going on and in the end, was not surprised by the LC lynch at all. Golden, who I have reason to believe is town, unlike Sig.

Now, the VFD has a block. Sig and Dom got one of them lynched yesterday and was generally putting himself against the faction hardcore yesterday. He also survived a nightkill so would potentially be Ishmael. If the VFD is siding with the town against the mafia and against the cult, it would be in their best interest to prevent further cult recruiting.



With all that said, Sig comes in and puts forth a preemptive defense against the VFD, saying they'd probably be butthurt over LC's lynch. As if that's the only problem. Then he puts forth a theory that MP and Daisy are mafia or cult and will try to save Olaf. Sure. But LC and I were all ready to lynch MP or Daisy yesterday and Sig wouldn't have it.

So if Sorsha isn't the last mafia, I think Sig is. Maybe with Sorsha. Maybe with Dom. Maybe alone.

If Sorsha is the last mafia member, I don't care about Sig. Lynch Sorsha and it's game.

So once again. Convince me. That last explanation? Not convincing.

sig wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:@Sig

I think we all know where Quin is going with this. I don't think you can convince him. Convince me.

Why did you vote LC yesterday?

I think I laid out my various reasoning for it rather well, between him not voting for Sprityo, voting for DDL who I civ read, and the INH thing I thought he wasn't a civ, I was right. Now to be fair I didn't expect him to actually get lynched yesterday, but I'm not unhappy with the results. I thought he was acting strange this game and hedging his bets, which I believe he was since he wasn't on a side until Night 5, which I found scummy. So I voted for him, I don't regret it and I'd probably do it again. Especially since it was between him and Quin, who wanted to be lynched, and multiple people who didn't want to lynch him were on the wagon.

Do you know why I voted for Quin yesterday?

@Sig

I think we all know where Quin is going with this. I don't think you can convince him. Convince me.

Why did you vote LC yesterday?

Never had the mod give the player name of a kill survivor either.

Doctoring doesn't even appear in the writeups every time so as to not give away if the mafia was blocked or not. There will just be a missing kill.

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:So let's say we eliminate the Troupe today.

Game continues, right? Unless the cult already has majority, in which case everybody wins?

Game would end

Are you saying you think the cult outnumbers the town/vfd?

Or that the game would end and cult just loses.

My understanding is game ends, and cult loses if they have not at any point had 50% or more of the people. But if cult gets to 50%, the game continues anyway. Like, the cult meeting their win condition or not meeting it has no bearing on the game ending.

I've never played with a cult like this. HCRealms cults are almost always considered a "threat to the town" and all threats (mafias, skers, cults) must be eliminated for the town to win.

I swear to God, if Quin somehow manages to get himself lynched today....

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:So let's say we eliminate the Troupe today.

Game continues, right? Unless the cult already has majority, in which case everybody wins?

Game would end

Are you saying you think the cult outnumbers the town/vfd?

Or that the game would end and cult just loses.

Hi Daisy.

Missed you yesterday. Could have missed you more.

So let's say we eliminate the Troupe today.

Game continues, right? Unless the cult already has majority, in which case everybody wins?

Golden wrote:I trust you completely.

What do you think of the "Sunny is Ishmael cult" theory?

One of my favorites.

That said, I don't know who you guys think Dom is so that throws off a lot of my spreadsheeting.

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

sig wrote:

lol I'm officially lost.

Also prepare for a VFD revenge onslaught agaisnt me this phase, since I took out on of their own.

Now I can only guess we have two blockers in play, the mafia and VFD.

My hypothesis could be that the last player alive on the Troupe was Sorsha who blocked her own kill, but that seems a little bit to reachy. Plus I'd need to look at and see the rules on actions and kills. Since why kill Sorsha? that makes very little sense.

A better theory is that Sorsha knew she'd be blocked by either the VFD or Poe or both. So she shot herself. I guess. Or there was some sort of redirect.

There's no reason for any of the other potential scummers to shoot at Sorsha on purpose.

Yeah, I agree. With VFD and potentially Poe out there, she could be confident of being blocked.

Course, you can't really trust a neutral.

I mean, they coulda blocked anybody.

sig wrote:

lol I'm officially lost.

Also prepare for a VFD revenge onslaught agaisnt me this phase, since I took out on of their own.

Now I can only guess we have two blockers in play, the mafia and VFD.

My hypothesis could be that the last player alive on the Troupe was Sorsha who blocked her own kill, but that seems a little bit to reachy. Plus I'd need to look at and see the rules on actions and kills. Since why kill Sorsha? that makes very little sense.

A better theory is that Sorsha knew she'd be blocked by either the VFD or Poe or both. So she shot herself. I guess. Or there was some sort of redirect.

There's no reason for any of the other potential scummers to shoot at Sorsha on purpose.

Golden wrote:It definitely clears Dom. Jack and Quin too. MP's been claiming indy, it's clear which. He is also clearing Daisy, with a clear mechanical reason for why he could (and hey, why wouldn't MP want his wife on side!). That leaves Sorsha.

Sorsha is the droid we are looking for.

But...why male models?

sig wrote:

Golden wrote:That was exactly what I expected. Which is good.

I think this kinda clears Dom?

Unless Quin is mafia which I highly doubt he is.

How do you figure?

Golden wrote:That was exactly what I expected. Which is good.

In hindsight, that's pretty informative, right?

RIP, LC.

Golden wrote:You peeps should have tried phone posting in haiku mafia

The alternative to phone posting is doing my job while I'm at work and I refuse.

Quin wrote:I cant make these posts on a phone without coming across as a jackass. Sorry. You'll have to put up with it until I can get my laptop going.

Yeah, uh, me too.

I'm nice. It's my phone.

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:Every day is my favorite phase. This is no exception.

It's improved!

Every day is my favorite phase. This is no exception.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Golden wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:If Sorsha is the last scum... I can't even.

I'm like, 95% sure!

I mean, how sure are you that it isn't Daisy?

I won't vote for her.

Curious.

Mostly unrelated, what's your certainty that there is only 1 scum left, Golden?

I'd be surprised if you guessed everyone half right (no offense) but I still want to know.
'
Is normal meta to hinting/asking people to trust you this hostile reaction? Or is the bowl scramble gumming things up?

Sorsha is a word, phone.

sig wrote:Btw Anybody who doesn't laugh at my jokey post is getting killed tonight.

Also I thought Jack had the bowl why do you care if I through a vote at LC?

Also I don't like Quin wanting to lynch me, maybe if they hadn't have been all clandestine "we have BTSC just follow us" type junk all day we'd have gotten something out of this day.

I could go with a Sorsha vote I guess, unless something pops up tonight. I do think we have at least two baddies left though.

linki:

Bowls are stupid anyway. I don't even want the thing.

So is a cat meow?

MovingPictures07 wrote:Let's not engage in role outing please. This phase has already been too close to it way too often for my taste. Role speculation is OK I guess, but meh.

So let's hear him speculate.

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

Golden wrote:At this point I think a Sorsha death will win the town the game.

Why?

Because I believe I now know every single players role, alive and dead, with just a couple of cases where there are two people who could fit in to either of two roles.

Because I slowly and methodically work through things logically in order to get the town the win.

That's convenient.

Who are Daisy and MP?

Epignosis wrote:

Quin wrote:Why the HELL does LC have two votes? Epi, do me a favour and lynch me will you?

I already voted.

Hey Epi.

Maybe you shouldn't vote for someone just cause they piss you off. You might want to change your vote later.

Golden wrote:At this point I think a Sorsha death will win the town the game.

Why?

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

Golden wrote:

sig wrote:linki: Quin has a damning case on MP, this has nothing to do with Jack?

The damning case is that you are ishmael, sig.

It would certainly explain why Sig has apparently dropped 50 IQ points today.

We'll see.

It's not dumb, when people don't just do what their told but instead use their own brain. Trusting people just because they say they should be trusted isn't necessarily smart mafia play.

Just because I say so? We both know that's not what happened.

This is what I'm talking about. You'd rather stick to your guns than win.

Please don't continue that trend.

sig wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

Golden wrote:

sig wrote:linki: Quin has a damning case on MP, this has nothing to do with Jack?

The damning case is that you are ishmael, sig.

It would certainly explain why Sig has apparently dropped 50 IQ points today.

We'll see.

Mr. ILynchsomonehighonmycivlist?

No room to talk.

Man I really wish I had voted for you. Who knows though the night is dark and full of terrors.


linki: I still think Golden could be Ishmael.

But seriously. Do you not understand how the bowl works?

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:You're not listening.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:You have launched yourself to the top of my scum list with your last two posts.

Irony.

How so?



Linki: Sig, there is no universe in which LC is bad in this game. Quit with the tinfoil or pretend tinfoil.

Golden wrote:

sig wrote:linki: Quin has a damning case on MP, this has nothing to do with Jack?

The damning case is that you are ishmael, sig.

It would certainly explain why Sig has apparently dropped 50 IQ points today.

We'll see.

Dom wrote:now i'm probably being a pissy little bitch that no one likes when i say this but

what the hell is anyone even talking about anymore?

You have launched yourself to the top of my scum list with your last two posts.

Mi hope a baby eats you tonight.

Dom wrote:i have no idea what im reading

Then why did you vote LC?

You guys think I'm cult?

You have got to be kidding me.

Golden wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:Having said that, I do not think it could have been anticipated that Jack, Quin and LC would take the course of action they took today.

Then fucking wait and see what they do before voting!

Also, it could have been partially anticipated.

I've been telling Sig and Golden to ISO me for days. Jack knowing Quin is not bad is not new.

I did a full iso of you. Why the fuck should I know you've bid so many votes for the bowl that you need to jump on the first wagon that gets two votes? That's insane.

Why the fuck should I anticipate you'd do a full ISO, see my rainbow list, see my defending Quin for the entire game, know I can't be mafia.....and then vote Quin less than halfway through the day? I thought I had cred. I thought you'd put two and two together.

It's like you and Sig would rather be right than logical, rather be right then win. Well watch Quin flip, take the short list and do something with it.

Fucking super townies.


Link: I'm doing something very useful. You're not listening.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:Having said that, I do not think it could have been anticipated that Jack, Quin and LC would take the course of action they took today.

Then fucking wait and see what they do before voting!

Also, it could have been partially anticipated.

I've been telling Sig and Golden to ISO me for days. Jack knowing Quin is not bad is not new.

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:Having said that, I do not think it could have been anticipated that Jack, Quin and LC would take the course of action they took today.

Then fucking wait and see what they do before voting!

sig wrote:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:When I left from work today, Quin had two votes. When I got home, showered, and ate, he had eight.

Not much I can say or do at that point.

I agree.

Is it really my fault? Or is the fact that Jack bet so many votes that after only two on Quin, they had to panic bus someone they are claiming to be town and an ally?

It's both.

Even if you were 100% sure on Quin, why would you vote as early as you did? How does that help anyone?

Honestly? You and LC can't criticize anyone on voting since y'all voted for someone you said was a civ.

Have you not read how the bowl mechanics work either?

I placed my vote exactly where it HAS to go because Golden and Daisy placed their vote somewhere it should have never been.

If I could time travel, I wouldn't change my vote. It's me or Quin. Quin keeps picking fights with people on his side for no reason and he doesn't have night protection.

What's Golden's excuse? Itchy trigger finger?

MovingPictures07 wrote:I need someone to explain this bowl stuff to me like I have no idea what the hell it is. Because that's pretty much where I'm at.

Dom wrote:

Golden wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:I need someone to explain this bowl stuff to me like I have no idea what the hell it is. Because that's pretty much where I'm at.

Someone bet a lot of votes to protect themselves from nightkills for the next three nights. Either Jack or LC. Then they bussed quin to make sure they were alive to get the benefit.

I'm pretty sure that's not a baddie thing to do, because it shows they are scared about nightkills. On the other hand, they've basically put the target on the rest of us by making it clear they have it.

how do you know what the bowl does?

See? See why I'm thinking I couldn't rely on enough players getting on a proper train?