The Syndicate

Gotcha.

:P I should have gone with my gut on that one, stayed on Dom.

Soooo SVS, were you not around when DF got lynched? You and Dom could've coordinated to lynch me instead at the last second, ending the game right there. Dom was here, and you had been present a lot.

Dom wrote:If you played horribly why couldn't I get you lynched ?

I played well final day, I think. :P I'm not THAT down on myself. If I had playes as Day 5 speed all game...

I played a terrible game till final day. Thanks for not lynching me at least.

Golden wrote:

Quin wrote:

speedchuck wrote:I do want to know who was revealed accidentally and who would have died D1 if Llama hadn't messed up the tie.

Golden lied with that one. He actually revealed Dom and SVS as DF's teammates in the role reveal, so he had to sub me out to cover it up.

This.

Unfortunately it was a function of my stupid work computer having post regression issues. I edited it out on my screen, but it was still there when it was actually posted. I had been doing so well pressing refresh at every point but on that one I went straight from 'preview' to 'submit' without refreshing the page. So annoying.

I had to lie about what it was, since it would inherently apply that any townie I subbed out was town. I'm fast with lies when I have to be. Put that one on your meta list.

Spacedaisy would have lost the tie on the first day. For funsies, I also randomised the day where Dom nearly created a tie, and SVS would have gone on that day.

See Dom? I told you that it was a bad idea.

Quin wrote:

speedchuck wrote:I do want to know who was revealed accidentally and who would have died D1 if Llama hadn't messed up the tie.

Golden lied with that one. He actually revealed Dom and SVS as DF's teammates in the role reveal, so he had to sub me out to cover it up.

I mean... that is an accidental reveal.

I do want to know who was revealed accidentally and who would have died D1 if Llama hadn't messed up the tie.

I should've stuck with dom. Then we could have survived one more day before losing.

I feel vindicated that we at least didn't pick me or Epi.

Good game to the mafia, as I was just saying. Wow, even. Fantastic, especially to SVS.

Bruh I'm an engineer. My math is right. Show me where an error is.

I'm with Epi on this one. If SVS and Dom are scum, GJ. Particularly SVS.

I'll be back around deadline. Switching to Sorsha.

MP, I know you aren't here, and are kinda the lynchpin of town's hopes and dreams. (at least for me )

But your vote is on me, and it's going to lose us the game. Allow me to appeal to my own meta.

Non-town:
Phenon Mafia - lasted till endgame
Ghetto Gardening Mafia - Lasted till cornered by a solved game at the end. Last mafia alive.
CYOMRCGTG Mafia- Lasted till cornered by a solved game at the end. Last mafia alive.
Credithunt - Last surviving mafia. I won. Was hardly suspected at any point.

In all of my non-town games, whether I won or lost at the end, I was considered very, VERY towny. The whole time. Either something mechanically condemned me by the end, or I won. (Or Phenon happened, but to be fair, that was as close as could be)

Vanilla town/functionally vanilla:
Currents mafia - lasted until after I got townfirmed, then killed
Themefia - lasted till the end, died on the final lynch to lose the game
FTL Mafia - Daykilled on D3
Adventure Mafia - Survived in a town win.
Winefia- Was a town item-seeker/lynchcontroller that was never able to activate - lynched D4
Frozen Hearts mafia - town messenger - lynched D2

Not once killed by the mafia (except for my currents townfirm, which was caused by me being sketchy). Why? Because I suck as vanilla town. I'm always one step ahead of being lynched, and either I survive the game by the skin of my teeth, being a target mafia doesn't want to kill, or I get lynched or shot by town.

Town Power Role:
Prettiest Princess mafia: Was cop. Lived and won on D2 (small game)
Terminal 13 Mafia - Was scientist. Got four different anti-alignment checks. Died N4.
Tiny Barbie Hunt - Was basically cop. Died N2.
Dersehunt Intermission - Died N1.
Traffic Jam Mafia - Town Chauffer - lynched D5
City Slickers Mafia - Vengeful Item-seeker - Killed N5

As a power-role, I'm usually able to use my information to keep me alive until the mafia catch wind of it.

So anyways: I'm ok at town. I'm decently good at mafia. I'm terrible at vanilla town, and it serves me well for survival.
If I was scum, I'd be up with SVS in reads most likely. I'd have good targets, good posts, and I'd know where to put my vote right now. But no, I'm vanilla town. I have NOTHING. And I don't want this game to end like Themefia did for me.

There's my meta, though a bit over-simplified, for the past 3.5 years. I hope to God that I won't lose this game for town.

Welp.

Sorsha hasn't been here in three days. If she doesn't come back (and if she's town), we need literally every remaining townie to get together and vote this MYLO. If she's scum, then I guess that makes things better and worse.
Feeling pretty bad about this, not gonna lie.

7 hours remaining.

Dom wrote: If Epi is who he says he is, then he isn't teamed with Sorsha. That leaves:
Dom and Sorsha
Epi and Dom
In your view.
So why vote Dom?
It doesn't really add up because you skipped the part of the logic where you decided I'm the biggest threat of the three. Tha'ts because you don't have any logic to get you there.

Threat? I don't care who the biggest threat is. You all have one nightkill. As you say, I have:

Dom and Sorsha
Epi and Dom

If Dom is on both lists, then he has a higher chance of being scum that Sorsha or Epi. It's not about threat. It's about hitting probable scum.
Every scum is an equal threat to the town. They have one kill, and one vote. I have one vote.

linki:
If you did force the tie, there was 3/8 chance that scum dies. 1/4 chance that the death was scum and NOT df, outing a lot of information and giving town another free lynch.
Why would a scum person play with those odds rather than lynching DF and putting themselves in an excellent endgame position?

To be fair, what I and you would do in that position may be quite different. I'd have offed DF unless I could coordinate with other scum to break the tie. I wouldn't have tied it.

speedchuck wrote:Epi:
I'm willing to forgive Epi's place on my wagon. I've been crap this game. Don't really like the way he avoided responsibility for the vote by promising the bandwagon on G-Man, but at the same time, if I die, it's game over. If Epi were mafia, he'd know who the townies are, and at the point in the game, responsibility for mislynches doesn't matter.

The way DF agreed to follow onto the three-man wagon makes Epi look... better? I'd expect distancing from Epi if he were scum, buddying if her were town. Wine on that one.

The constant dislike of DF's lynch was iffy, but only because of the result. If she was a different, more unfair bullcrap type role, then Epi would've been right.
Of course, where I come from, Lynchproofs are considered bad game design, so I can't judge that one for sure. I could talk about why, but it isn't relevant to the game at hand.

The back and forth with SVS is weird. It's so focused on meta that I can't make heads or tails of it. If anyone else can, please do.

There it is.

Epignosis wrote:Culpability doesn't matter at this stage. Getting it right does.

Fair point. Similar to one I made earlier. I'll see if I can find it.

Head's up: I'm pretty bad at this sort of thing.

MP
--
If MP is good I'm happy.
If MP is bad I'm going to flip some tables.


DOM
---
If Dom is bad, he may have known that DF would have a momentary fake flip, and have planned a towny-looking response. I'm not sure what was with the fake flip. It also makes sense that he dropped in, tried not to lynch DF, and saw that voting me would end in a tie OR Epi/SVS told him not to make a tie in scumchat. Sorsha wasn't here, I don't think.

For some reason, about halfway through the game, Dom stopped being as coherent, with his writing style AND with his post content. He's perfectly coherent still in other games. I'm not sure why he's throwing people off like that, but it's probably indicative of something.

If Dom is good, he's putting in low effort and hopting we take up the slack. His response to DF's fake flip was genuine, despite that the game should have ended there if it was so. Since the Mass Effect mafia game started, he's been throwing little bits into the thread when he can, giveing Mass Effect priority. Just little bits of spam thoughts and reads.

Dom's votes:
1. none
2. Nutella
3. Nutella
4. DF

Absent D1, sticks to his guns on D2 and 3, already discussed D4.


SORSHA
------
If Sorsha is good, then great. She has very few posts, but what posts she has are not incriminating. She's apparently moving over the course of this game, so she has out of thread reasons, and she's focused on Survivor for a good bit of this game.
She does seem to think she had a scum on her D1, leaving me and Epi.

If Sorsha is bad, we don't have much to go on to figure it out.
She was defended D1 by SVS and DF, according to her. Interesting combination there.
Her vote on DF came at a time where it would look really scummy not to vote for him, aspecially after her promise to do so the previous day.

Sorsha's votes:
1. Llama
2. none
3. none
4. DF


SVS
---
If SVS is good, the strong anti-alignment with DF makes more sense. I may have been annoying about it, but SVS's reactions to the Llama viasco with the tie and the random sorsha votes said more town than not... Most of her posts do. I don't see any way to tie SVS to anyone on the board but mayyyyybe Epi if they're good at doing that sort of thing where they nip at each other. That includes DF, no feeling of coalignment there.

If SVS is bad, I'm scared. Her early votes weren't good (just like everyone else) and her claim to
be a tone-reader doesn't fit with the llama lynch. I liked his tone. It does, however, explain the townread of Epi through day 4. Epi's had a good tone most of the game, with Day 5 wrecking that for me and drowning me in question marks.
If there's one baddie on the DF lynch day 3, trying to hide among the townies, it literally has to
be SVS. Otherwise that is a fully-town lynch.

SVS's votes:
1. Llama
2. NotSawyer
3. DF
4. DF


Epignosis
---------
If Epi is good, then neat. He's had a good vibe most of the game, despite his votes. Despite some of his post, he hasn't been playing ideal scum this past day in my opinion. More wine on that.
I could see him aligned with SVS or Dom. One of these isn't likely.

Posts with Epi defending himself seem genuine, yet hostile and fear-mongering. Not sure how to feel about that.

If Epi is bad: "You're a civilian. The best thing you can do is keep fighting to get the win for the person you just lynched." This is something he said. He also later said that Dom and Sorsha don't deserve the win, so whatever. Inconsistency much?
The votes are bad. He admitted it.
Epi's made some remarkable un-town posts near end-game, which are either a symptom of scumminess or frustration. However, I don't expect Epi to be that way as scum, so wine on that.
He keeps pledging to follow other people's votes. Feels like a way to avoid culpability.

Epi's votes:
1. speedchuck
2. nutella
3. SVS
4. speedchuck

As is obvious, I have become more unsure as the day has gone on.

Like you, I condider all the SVS combos to be unlikely. If SVS is mafia, it would open a lot of options, especially with Epi. I'm gonna look back at her votes. I also consider myself to be town, obviously. Thus:
Screw this likely: Anything with MP
Least likely: Epignosis & Sorsha
Less least likely: Anything with SVS.
Most likely: Dom & Sorsha
Slightly more Most likely: Dom & Epignosis

Honestly, we're at MYLO. Seems like a good mafia player would just make a good case on one of the remaining town players. Out of the 5 non-MP targets, there are 3 town. Wouldn't be that hard to make a confident case.
But nobody is doing that at all.

And nobody jumped on changing the lynch from DF to me at the last second.
We have at least one inactive scum, I think. Betting on Dom ATM.
Epi could be scum... and that would make the fact that I wasn't last-second lynched make more sense... but if he's not, then the inactivity covers it.

Just thinking out loud here, saying nothing new.

Holdup, let me grab your combo list and debate internally and sweat

MovingPictures07 wrote:

speedchuck wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:speedchuck, thanks, I got that. I guess what I'm missing is what specifically in Llama's posts or behavior led you to your strong opinion that he was town. Can you elaborate on that?

Just went through the ISO. Yeah, it's mostly what I said a bit ago. His reaction to pressure, his willingness to immediately buddy someone (doesn't speak to someone who cares too much about appearances), and my gut feeling based on his posts. I mean seriously, scan over his ISO, it's easier than me posting stuff here. I can't see that level of flippant, yet earnest action coming from a scum at the top of the D1 lynch pile. Unflappable.

Besides, I felt like I called attention to his vote by throwing another one on there, and was feeling a bit guilty about getting this guy that I figured was a townie lynched.

That all makes sense, thanks.

Another question: if you were trying to find an anyone-but-Llama option, why did you choose DF and why did you initiate that option? Seems to me you could have latched onto someone else's option that wasn't you or Llama, but you were the first to vote for DF.

I'm just still trying to figure everything out, that's all.

Sorsha hadn't really done anything wrong at all D1. I didn't want to stay on that wagon. Not to mention that it wasn't going to go anywhere. (Until G-Man started forcing a tie)

DF had done nothing all game but try to attach meaning to Llama's (and my) votes on Sorsha. Seemed a bit like a frame-job waiting to happen.

But mostly: I had good vibes from Llama, wasn't too deeply invested in reads, and he said he would switch to DF. I was having fun buddying the crap out of Llama.
That last reason is most of it. I wish it were a better reason.

I'm new here. Are false flips (someone flipping as vanilla town, then actually being mafia, or some mod bastardry like that) common? Because where I come from, there would be an uproar if Quin/MP was scum after that flip. People would be literally angry, because of what they expect from a game.

But we've already had someone survive a lynch, so... I don't know what is considered mod bastardry on this forum. Please do fill me in, because I don't know what to expect.

linki: I'll answer that in a sec

MovingPictures07 wrote:speedchuck, thanks, I got that. I guess what I'm missing is what specifically in Llama's posts or behavior led you to your strong opinion that he was town. Can you elaborate on that?

Just went through the ISO. Yeah, it's mostly what I said a bit ago. His reaction to pressure, his willingness to immediately buddy someone (doesn't speak to someone who cares too much about appearances), and my gut feeling based on his posts. I mean seriously, scan over his ISO, it's easier than me posting stuff here. I can't see that level of flippant, yet earnest action coming from a scum at the top of the D1 lynch pile. Unflappable.

Besides, I felt like I called attention to his vote by throwing another one on there, and was feeling a bit guilty about getting this guy that I figured was a townie lynched.

I admittedly wasn't taking D1 very seriously, but:

speedchuck wrote:

Sorsha wrote:Put my vote on llama for now. I'll change it later if saving myself is a possibility.

Where would you change it to?

speedchuck wrote:I suspect Sorsha more than Llama, and thus am unable to move my vote ATM.
Hm.
Vote Dfaraday

speedchuck wrote:Could we please not vote Llama?

speedchuck wrote:

Quin wrote:hey what's up

Eyy!
Bunch of random wagons. Recommending Dfaraday.

speedchuck wrote:

Quin wrote:Looked at DF's posts just now. That wagon isn't cool. The llama one is though.

speedchuck wrote:

Quin wrote:

G-Man wrote:

Quin wrote:

speedchuck wrote:

Quin wrote:Looked at DF's posts just now. That wagon isn't cool. The llama one is though.

Tell me why DFaraday is a bad dude in 30 words or less.

Fewer.

You heard the man.
Fewer.

Llama said that llama was town. Did DF say that? Don't think so.

While I was joking about it, I was also pretty serious. Llama only got suspected for adding a second vote to a wagon (I added a third), and I thought he responded well to pressure.

linki: amazing posts there guys

That last line of my post does, actually.

I thought about something and came back:

speedchuck wrote:

Marmot wrote:And for my next trick, I'll do a Sockface impersonation.
Dyslexicon
Epignosis
FZ.
DrWilgy
Elohcin
insertnamehere
JaggedJimmyJay
Long Con
Luke11646
MovingPictures07
speedchuck
nutella

Does the order of the yellows matter?

This is a quote from Currents Mafia, Dom, a towngame of mine.

Dom, I'm voting you because, FMPOV, it's either you and Epi, you and Sorsha, or Sorsha and Epi. If Epi is really the player he says he is (and if not I have a whole day to change), then he is not teamed with sorsha. That leaves...

I don't know what to say to that. Well played.

I'm voting Dom.

It shouldn't be hard to understand why, given my thought process in my last few posts. It's not OMGUS. I'm going to bed. I'll be around tomorrow. Hopefully for more discussion.

Can I get a meta-reference to you defending an AFK scummate? Maybe even 2 or 3?

. . .

Alright.

And no use asking you who to vote for because if we are both town, Dom AND Sorsha would be scum. :P
I'll leave it on Sorsha for now, and hope that MP has some insight when he returns.

Epignosis wrote:In the meantime, speedchuck- why are you voting me when your belief is that Sorsha is bad too and I'm throwing her under the bus?

If I vote sorsha, and she does happen to be your scummate:
Sorsha dies.
MP dies.

You easily glide to a speedchuck lynch without MP here.
Town loses.

It's also quite possible, as per your defense and MP's scumreads, that I'm wrong about Dom, that he is your teammate, and you are defending him.
Basically, I consider the Epi/Sorsha and Epi/Dom worlds to be more likely than the Sorsha/Dom. I think. I'm still prone to switching.

Epignosis wrote:But you're not a fool.

Oh, and thanks. I rather feel like one now, so it was nice of you to say that.

I'm not scum. If I was, I'd know whose lynch to push. There are plenty of options.

linki: I know it's not an actual argument that you're scum, Epi. If that was my argument for you being scum it'd be stupid as hell.
"Durr he wants to kill the other scum person and keeps making inconvenient townreads he must be scum"
Making fun of myself here, not you

As I've said, I'm new to this forum. I'm only saying that you're doing this because it's what you're doing. Unless Dom is actually scum, but you made a pretty good point there.
So no, I'm not going to scour your previous games. I'll take your meta word for it.

Phenon mafia. I didn't have a teammate, but I was making townfirms like crazy at the end. Technically not scum though.
Credithunt: http://forum.chocolatepi.net/showthread ... #pid121331 Check after the first scum dies.
Another mafia game: http://forum.chocolatepi.net/showthread ... 596&page=6 I started on pE at post 294. Though, to be fair, the game was ridiculously unbalanced. Those are the only recent ones.
I've only landed mafia one other time, and that was me replacing into a doomed team four years ago.

Not that it matters.

So, Epi: Thought question: Assuming I'm town, and of course that you are town, is it more likely that Dom is scum or that SVS is pulling a brilliant change of pace and destroying us all.
And I know you could be snarky and answer that I'm scum and it's a stupid assumption, but please. For the sake of my own vote.
I want to believe you're town. I have for half the game.

Dom wrote:why do you care who looks worse to MP?

MP provided two rainbows, a single and a dual one. In context, I was trying to understand the state of the game from his perspective. Nothing more. What are you looking for?

Dom wrote:

speedchuck wrote:I can see why you are top FEB, Epi

You play a bad guy like I do.

what does this mean

Pretty sure Epi and Sorsha are the scum right now.

Which means he's doing what I do near endgame. Making a bunch of inconvenient townfirms (SVS, you) and throwing his own inactive teammate under the bus to make his accusation against me legitimate.
It's the very kind of thing I do as scum.

As for your other question, MP had you as the same color as me in his review. I was trying to figure out where his head was at.

linki: Ouch. I've never played a scum game on this site, Epi. I can't get in the hall of fame without playing here.

I can see why you are top FEB, Epi

You play a bad guy like I do.

I don't drink coffee.

Epignosis wrote:

speedchuck wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Ah.

I remember why I don't suspect Dom.

Dom wrote:

Quin wrote:

DFaraday wrote:Baddies are Quin, SVS, and either Chuck or Dom. *is strangled*

If you're town then the game is over so there was no need to say this. Eagerly awaiting a baddie flip.

You got some splainin' to do.

That was Dom's reaction to DFaraday showing up as Locke. If he already knew DFaraday was bad, I don't believe Dom would have posted that.

I literally don't understand Dom's post here in context. Could you elaborate, and explain why he wouldn't post that as scum?

The prevailing idea was that one of Quin or DFaraday had to be bad based on the distribution of power roles. Dom was around for the end of the Day and when DFaraday was temporarily shown to be a civilian, Dom went after Quin.

That kind of post in that exact window makes no sense if Dom already knows Quin is a civilian and DFaraday isn't.

Oooohhh...

That's a good point. I didn't get it because I was coming from this perspective where the game should have ended there. That does look good on Dom.

29 hours left. Would certainly appreciate thoughts from Dom, SVS, and Sorsha, especially if they include reads and thoughts on my/MP's posts since Day 4 ended.

Dom has been asking where Sorsha is all game. Kinda strange. Most recently said he doubts Sorsha would be so absent as scum.

This might be a REALLY bad question for me to ask, but Epi: Why are you going after Sorsha before me? Any particular reason? I have a reason for asking this.

Epignosis wrote:Ah.

I remember why I don't suspect Dom.

Dom wrote:

Quin wrote:

DFaraday wrote:Baddies are Quin, SVS, and either Chuck or Dom. *is strangled*

If you're town then the game is over so there was no need to say this. Eagerly awaiting a baddie flip.

You got some splainin' to do.

That was Dom's reaction to DFaraday showing up as Locke. If he already knew DFaraday was bad, I don't believe Dom would have posted that.

I literally don't understand Dom's post here in context. Could you elaborate, and explain why he wouldn't post that as scum?

Epignosis wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Why? So the baddies could kill again the next night and game over?

The general strategy is to narrow down the pool.

With 5 alive, mafia kills, making the next Day phase 3-1. That makes the odds of getting it wrong 75%. Refraining from lynching means the mafia (presumably) kills, making it 2-1, which makes the odds of getting it wrong 67%.

I don't think a no lynch is necessary though- lynch Sorsha and then speedchuck.

True. That would eliminate the need for a no lynch.

Oh, I'd like a response to this:

If we kill scum tonight, would a no-lynch be a good idea tomorrow?

My scumread of Sorsha mostly comes from the fact that the mafia could have coordinated to lynch me instead of DF yesterday, but didn't have the coordination. I know that train of thought only works with me being town, but it's what I have to work with.

However...

If Epi is scum with Dom, then the best scum could do is force a tie in last nights votal situation, using G-Man's vote. That might make more sense than a no-show from Sorsha.
Hard to say. We don't have much Sorsha to go on.

linki: Cool, thanks for the answer. I look forward to your opinions on those two.

MP, you've got a rather strong suspicion of Epi going on. Is any of that due to metaread? If so, could you explain?
In more certain terms, is avoiding the definitely-scum-DF lynch and trying to find a different scummate instead of DF at friggin MYLO something Epi would be prone to do?

Epi, I saw your post explaining it, but I didn't get it. In clear terms, why did SVS go from a possible vote from you to one of your townreads?

And secondly, what is your read on Dom? I'm somewhat surprised you'd suspect Sorsha over Dom.

Right, so I'll keep my defense short and then get to rereading Epi.

My defense is nothing. I had a really crappy first 3.5 days. Not gonna go and appeal to RL reasons or anything. I've barely read days 2 and 3, day one was a pile of roleplay meaninglessness, and I simply popped into the thread occasionally and popped some immediate gut reads based on the last 10/20 posts. Perhaps it was worse than useless. I've got no defense for it. Good luck pulling an actual agenda out of it, though.

Thought process on votes is likewise terrible.
D1: Had a strong feeling Llama was town. Voted on the train that wasn't him. Felt kinda guilty for pulling attention to him, even.
D2: Barely popped in. Between NotSawyer and Nutella? An easy choice.
D3: I honestly popped a vote on Quin (now you) to see if it would work. I thought the mod might change the poll. Unfortunately, I wasn't around at dayend to change it. No excuses. It's crap.
D4: Based on your role-flip, game suspicions, and DF's survival, I was positive they were scum. Anything that allows a player to survive two lynches in a game, in any way, would be broken. That lynch should have been guaranteed. Crazy (to me) that I even got close to rivaling it.

D1 and D4 should give pause to me being aligned with DF, if only slightly, but you can work through that. You can also look at my vanilla town meta, vs my non-town meta, if that helps. Really though, neither applies.
I've had a crappy few days. I'm gonna try and step my game up so I don't lose it for you guys.

So does Dom look worse than me, or? ...

MP, do you have any questions for me that can clarify my situation? I'd rather not lose us the game just because of some super low early game effort.

What do you think of Dom's EOD actions Day 4, G-Man, as outlined in my post 5 above yours? Don't give up yet! THERE'S STILL TIME!!