The Syndicate

GG scum, I missed out on most of the fun but you guys did great.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:51 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:10 pm I don't have a lynch misdirect or anything like that, so it wasn't me.
Did someone ask you?

Yes and no

Kites wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:32 pm most likely either
a) mafia saved cbob’s ass cos he is scum
b) someone, civ maybe, wanted drwhite dead instead

anyways someone might have a power like lynch redirector? it would probably require voting for the target so colin, dunya/speedchuck or rdw maybe for voting drwhite

this is just speculation btw

I don't have a lynch misdirect or anything like that, so it wasn't me.

Yeah, no idea what’s going on still, lmao

Well, I wished for more of a substantive contribution from Dr. White, but he's wrapped up in all of that draft stuff the same, which I find more compelling than the JJJ argument, so it'll test the theory either way.

[VOTE: DR. WHITE] aubergine

Aubergine

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:18 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:17 pm RDW, why would you vote for DDL before Mac even presents his case? Are you really tunneling Mac that hard?
I needed someone to do it so I could vote for him.

Right, but he didn’t even wait for your rationale, I laughed pretty hard at that actually.

RDW, why would you vote for DDL before Mac even presents his case? Are you really tunneling Mac that hard?

rundontwalk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:45 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:44 pm Why would Mac sacrifice a scummate who currently has zero votes?
Because assumption will be he is town. Every single time I'm scum I sacrifice a scum mate when convenient for me.

Yeah, I get why it’s a good strategy but it depends on other stuff happening usually. You’re telling me when you play scum, you volunteer a teammate as the day is winding down and there’s significant lynch momentum against someone else (or in this case, two someones) entirely?

#ballstothewall, indeed

Why would Mac sacrifice a scummate who currently has zero votes?

Long Con, I’m really not sure. I think that the scum are given fakeclaims anyway, though, and I have a hard time seeing why the host would information like that if it was that obvious. In general I’m definitely more inclined to vote based on behavior, and not by testing the mechanics.

So with that in mind - the Dr. White/Iron_Dwarf draft situation, and subsequent behavior of each, doesn’t sit right with me. My vote is tentative, because I’d really love to hear from Dr. White, but for now...

[VOTE: IRON_DWARF] aubergine

aubergine

Kenway wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:37 pm Hello, I was here yesterday but the thread got locked.

I still think we should test the public list out, namely lynch sig or lapluie and see if they flip scum.

If sig is scum they have two kills a night, I think it's wise for him to not use it now, he can get trigger-happy later and claim so and so is scummy.

This has "ploy" written all over it. I don't know for sure if those two are scum/town but I really don't think that's what's going on in that post, there could be scum in any of the homelands and townies in any of them as well. And I'm not really sure if it's in a mafia vig's best interests to keep quiet for the time being, don't you think this would be the period in the game where it's easiest to get away with mistakenly killing a townie? If I had that role as a scum I'd be trying to thin the ranks, quickly, self-preservation be damned. I think a lot of us were expecting another death today, and it's not like if it had been two townies we'd suddenly be coming at sig with torches and pitchforks. Sorry Kenway but I'm not buying this.

I don't think anything in that rule precludes the possibility of two players of different classes having the same backstory, but there's nothing in there that would suggest it, imo.

I mean, I am town, so I understand Iron_Dwarf reading me as such, and I got what he meant when he mentioned me v. dunya without clarification. Dunya's obviously a bigger risk as scum than I am based on her gameplay here. His reads do give me some pause all around though.

Iron_Dwarf was still available by the time he made his actual pick iirc.

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:18 pm who else found Iron_Dwarf's answer about who Jay is making cases about with ping worthy for the fact Dr. White was not mentioned? Possible w/w if we take into consideration Dr. White's random drafting of Iron_Dwarf at the wrong time, then backing off him to Marmot in the end, when I_D was still available?

Worth noting.

Hey [mention]Dr. White[/mention] , why did you change your mind about who to select in the draft?

Well, I messed up the BB code again somehow, but you get the gist.

One possibly strategic reason for killing rabbit that I don't was brought up yet is that it really limits what we as town are able to gleam collectively still. Some people talked about him and even voted for him at times, but we're pretty much as in the dark as we were yesterday while the Mafia team just got (what I'm presuming to be) a clean kill.

[oc]dunya, I hope you continue posting as much as you want. I think you're an invaluable asset to the game and a lot of people here obviously respect and like playing with you or else we wouldn't have shown up when you asked.[/oc]

dunya wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:59 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:56 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:50 pm Oh yeah as far as his specific choice of Iron_Dwarf, that is rather curious as he presumably didn't know anyone besides DDL. Potential teammates.
Hmm but when his real turn came up, Iron_Dwarf was still available and yet he chose Marmot.
what does that tell you?

Almost seems like a slip-up and then a course correction, pointing potentially toward his and Iron_Dwarf's guilt and Marmot's innocence. But that'd be one hell of a slip-up.

Screw Mafia, I'm just here to rack up cool points.

Overall it seems to me that White is not afraid to pick unpopular horses, but he is also laying much lower than I realized and I don't find myself agreeing with his casing.

Reading through Dr. White's ISO, the first thing are his suspicions of Mac based on his "gatling" reads, but it kind of looks like he's doing that himself in that very post and in a few others. I also don't really buy the case against Mac that has to do with his behavior during a vacation, there is more to life than Mafia ya know.

Here it strikes me odd that he would say he "firmly" believes a scum would be between these three - I'm just not seeing the case and those are big words for Day 1, which almost makes me think a scum wouldn't say something like that.

I don't really think there's anything scummy in the dispute between JJJ and White but if one of them is scum I'd doubt that the other is. That's not an argument between knowing teammates, nah.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:31 am I don't understand why, if he's worried about later teammate speculation, the current analysis has assuaged his fears, because it absolutely does not preclude, and indeed paves the way for, said later speculation.

It's hard for me to say what the bad version of Epignosis' conclusions would look like, but something that I wouldn't agree with is a call-to-arms to lynch somebody (now or in the future) based on it without compelling evidence. What is does do is merely bring up discussion. What I'm not seeing is why my behavior looks so strange to you here - if I'm scum, what's my game?

dunya wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:05 am RYMers: please help me out here. Would you call me a great scum player or a great town leader? Be honest, I won't be angry. No one here from The Syndicate has seen me as scum yet and they're questioning my alliance based on my abilities to post 500+ in a game by Night 1 as scum.

I have no memory of playing with you as scum so if I were to pick you it wouldn't have had anything to do with metas. Honestly I'm sympathetic to the notion of picking both you and JJJ as scum, because as prolific townies that seems exactly the kind of terrifying thing nobody would engage with for more than a second, but like I said I would have picked my team at random.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:10 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:10 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:08 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:06 pm Something to consider too might be the scene JOH wrote for the aborted lynch. Epi’s character plays a pretty big role in it and sort of interrupts the action. If we assume he’s telling the truth about the lynch switch, then that may suggest it’s an intentional reference to that or depiction of it. Which may suggest that there are, in fact, things to be gleamed from the flavor text - not sure what else, but something to possibly keep in mind?
According to the OP I am in his band merry men or something now too which is totally news to me.
Maybe it’s your class? Dunno enough about Fire Emblem but glancing at them those seem like they could be a base party.
It only got added after day 1 though I think. I didn't see it there before.

Which clarifies even more that flavor text can be useful for figuring out game mechanics unfolding and certain non-death events occurring.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:08 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:06 pm Something to consider too might be the scene JOH wrote for the aborted lynch. Epi’s character plays a pretty big role in it and sort of interrupts the action. If we assume he’s telling the truth about the lynch switch, then that may suggest it’s an intentional reference to that or depiction of it. Which may suggest that there are, in fact, things to be gleamed from the flavor text - not sure what else, but something to possibly keep in mind?
According to the OP I am in his band merry men or something now too which is totally news to me.

Maybe it’s your class? Dunno enough about Fire Emblem but glancing at them those seem like they could be a base party.

Something to consider too might be the scene JOH wrote for the aborted lynch. Epi’s character plays a pretty big role in it and sort of interrupts the action. If we assume he’s telling the truth about the lynch switch, then that may suggest it’s an intentional reference to that or depiction of it. Which may suggest that there are, in fact, things to be gleamed from the flavor text - not sure what else, but something to possibly keep in mind?

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:47 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:42 pm No surprise to many of you, Epi’s exercise did not go in the direction I anticipated in terms of purpose or when it would be useful, so I’ll eat crow there. I am pretty comfortably rescinding my earlier suspicions and putting him in town territory for the time being.
I don't understand what other thing(s) you thought he could have done with it (aside from later speculation on teammates when we get a scum flip, which the now-relevant part of the analysis certainly does not preclude).

My initial reaction was that it would be some of what you describe which I think is very dangerous. I sort of figured that it would go in the stats direction the more I thought about it, but with a different kind of analysis, or perhaps something people would try to use as a “lynching guide.” But I’m pleased to see that it’s not.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:44 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:42 pm No surprise to many of you, Epi’s exercise did not go in the direction I anticipated in terms of purpose or when it would be useful, so I’ll eat crow there. I am pretty comfortably rescinding my earlier suspicions and putting him in town territory for the time being.
Is that because Epignosis just stated that he doesn't suspect you?

No. I think it’s pretty thoughtful analysis though (the section on dunya and JJJ, for example, articulates a small fear I think all of us have) and I think that, even if he did say he suspected me, I’d still find the other bits worth considering.

No surprise to many of you, Epi’s exercise did not go in the direction I anticipated in terms of purpose or when it would be useful, so I’ll eat crow there. I am pretty comfortably rescinding my earlier suspicions and putting him in town territory for the time being.

Vote for me for Rico's Army, I have no idea what it does so you know I'm not planning anything nefarious with it.

What's up with the poll?
What did Quin just do in that vote?
Marmot, why?
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?

Ah, now it's back to normal.

I dunno if it looks like this for everybody, but the thread still says "Locked" where the reply button should be?

I can see the case for Quin, I guess, but does anybody else think it's weird that the tide turned against him so swiftly?

Hey all, I wanted to type this in green text but I didn't see the BBcode option in 2 seconds of looking so I'll just have it like this. To everybody that responded to my last post, we're good. I am very much not used to playing a game of this intensity is all, and that means intensity between players too. I'll admit that some stuff was said to me that got under my skin, but I can get over it and I know it's just a game. My concern was moreso that others might feel the same way based on some of the interactions I had seen happen, but who may be too intimidated to say something. But I think we're all in agreement that we want to have fun and I certainly don't want to prevent anybody else from doing that, so please, play with the playstyles that suit you and that enable you to be successful. And please don't go easy on me ... I might be rusty, but those old metas Mac posted should tell you why. So go ahead and tell me to go fuck my grandmother when you don't like my reads and I'll work to keep the heat on all of you too.

Some shotgun thoughts so I can get this in before the lock: I really liked that DDL post against Kenway and would probably change my vote, but I think lynching Epignosis is a mistake. I straight up don't know how to read him and I don't love his arguments but I think it's important to let that stuff pan out and I really don't think I ever said we ought to lynch him before seeing what his exercise was anyway.

VOTE NUTELLA

I'm tired and have to go to my counselor tomorrow morning and won't be on the forum again until tomorrow night. Kinda think the mislynch thing is bullshit and it doesn't look like I'm the main target right now but if I am killed, hey, them's the breaks, I hope stuff I said will be useful to the town.

Even if I don't die, I want to say that this forum should evaluate its culture, especially when it comes to newcomers playing the game/new users joining. Not going to call anybody out because it's not just any one person. But people should not be this rude. This is just a game and we're all grown adults and you can be an effective player without belittling somebody or being nasty. You can think I'm a bad player or that I'm just being too sensitive, but I've been playing Mafia on-and-off for 13 years and I've never experienced anything like what I've seen happen to users at various points in this thread, so I know it's not me. And I've spent like maybe an hour rewriting this post and debating whether to say something, so this is not just an emotional reaction when pressured or faced with getting removed.

Quin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:25 pm Okay, he participated. He still refused to participate because he suspected Epi. I'd like that cleared up. I don't agree with the latter. See:

I didn't want to participate because I didn't see the point in it, and saw reasons why the exercise could actually be anti-town. I think the post you quoted from Kites actually explicitly says that.

colonialbob wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:12 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:11 pm
colonialbob wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:09 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:06 pm Man, I am not playing that game. You haven't come up with one good reason for why I should be lynched, just a blatant misreading of what I said. I don't owe you shit and if you kill me all you'll do is demonstrate exactly how unhelpful you are to the town.
I'm not blatantly misreading what you said, I just don't think it makes much sense.
This is to Epignosis. Last time I checked you weren't threatening to kill me?
Ah. My vote is currently on you, hence my confusion.

Yeah, I didn't see that.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:13 pm Colin, who's bad?

Suspicious of Nutella for reasons stated earlier, super wary of Epignosis for reasons noted earlier. I think you have made a few statements along the lines of "I have never seen x happen in a Mafia game" or "I would never do y in that position" which make me feel weird. That one post Kenway made a billion pages ago that other people pointed out as spine tingling also made my spine tingle. Can I go home yet?

Quin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:14 pm Colin, what do you think scum Epignosis is trying to do in his exercise? What does he get out of it that warrants your non-participation?

A scum Epignosis might want people to believe that there is something to be gleaned from the exercise when there isn't. Or try to mislead somehow from that information. But I'm not really sure if Epignosis is scum. As for the second part, I have answered this, I said I would pick people at random because I don't know anybody here.

colonialbob wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:09 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:06 pm Man, I am not playing that game. You haven't come up with one good reason for why I should be lynched, just a blatant misreading of what I said. I don't owe you shit and if you kill me all you'll do is demonstrate exactly how unhelpful you are to the town.
I'm not blatantly misreading what you said, I just don't think it makes much sense.

This is to Epignosis. Last time I checked you weren't threatening to kill me?

Man, I am not playing that game. You haven't come up with one good reason for why I should be lynched, just a blatant misreading of what I said. I don't owe you shit and if you kill me all you'll do is demonstrate exactly how unhelpful you are to the town.

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:40 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:36 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:32 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:19 pm You have asked me or wondered aloud now three times about what I am doing. I haven't answered you. There's a damn good reason for that. Were I to answer, the mafia now know what I am doing. Thanks, but no thanks.
I mean, why say this? Whether they know what you're doing or not, you are advertising yourself as a threat to them, saying that it's their best interests to stop you from figuring this stuff out. Why would a townie be so confident they wouldn't be nightkilled for that sentence alone?
No thanks. You're telling me that Epignosis should be broadcasting his intentions, whatever they may be, thus neutralizing their potential, all so he can avoid a night kill which is by the numbers already unlikely?

I hate this reasoning.
No. He could say something like, "I think it'd be useful to see what people say." Or he could say "There might be patterns in who's picked." If he has a real strategy here that needs time to pan out, he shouldn't be daring the Mafia to kill him for it by saying he has a "damn good reason" to hide his intentions.

Do y'all even read the thread or what. Let me go quote myself.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:53 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:13 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:54 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:49 pm Y'all, this condescending stuff is not gonna fly, I don't need to be in this game.

I don't see what I'm not communicating here. It is really, really strange for a townie, no matter the phase, to come into the thread and advertise themselves alone as a threat to the mafia. If you really think you have an ace in the hole or a way to get a leg up, you want to disguise it innocuously. You don't want to say stuff like "if the Mafia knew what I was doing, they'd try to stop me." Well, now they know they have a good reason to try to stop you either way, so it's USELESS.
I don't intend to be condescending, so please don't take offense. I simply don't believe the argument you're putting forth here.

1.) Epignosis has a zero percent chance of being night killed on Day 1, so that we're talking about this at all is already goofy.

2.) Where is this brazen advertisement of being an imminent threat? Epignosis said he isn't going to tell you what he intends with his exercise because it would render the exercise pointless. Maybe it even is pointless. You haven't given it a chance though. Before it has ever developed, barely halfway into the day phase, you have discarded it as nothing. Why not give Epignosis time to do whatever he's doing before you make that decision? Maybe it's an hour to EOD and he still hasn't done shit. Then you can make this case more validly. It isn't that hard to fathom why this exercise might have value. First and foremost, what is the core source of this current dialogue? It's right in front of your face.

3.) The entire premise that a civilian inherently must play timidly to avoid night kills flies in the face of common sense. If you're an alignment cop, sure, be careful. Otherwise who gives a damn? The objective of this game is not to survive. It is to lynch mafia.
1) I don't understand why you think I'm worried about that. I know that doesn't happen. But what might happen if I came into this thread and said, "hey, I have a great idea to take down the mafia, but the mafia can't know about it." I'd probably be a target for the following night phase. Why not lay a little lower?
When the plan requires the participation of everyone else, how do you accomplish that while being quiet about it?

I feel like I've made this point three or four times. I think dunya made it too. You say something, literally anything other than "I've got a damn good reason for nobody to know" for reasons that I explain ... in the part of my post you are quoting.

dunya wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:46 pm I believe that was Colin's initial point against Epi (but he added some weird stuff to his argument which I'll ignore now because we're discussing this 1 point).

Anything I can address? I understand that maybe I'm not being as clear as I think I am.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:48 pm My one-off power is a lynch switch.

I fully intend on using that today. I am going to decide who gets lynched if I don't see a lynch poll that I like. Colin is probably going to die. dunya maybe. I am here to burn out like a firework on the fourth of July. And I am drunk. And I will be drunk tomorrow. And I do you know what drunks with fireworks do? It isn't pretty.

Well, when I come up as town it's not gonna look too great for you and I hope my team reacts accordingly.

dunya wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:15 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:06 pm I don't do elaborate iso analyses like some other people, I just skim it and write out general impressions, maybe with one or two quotes, so it doesn't take very long
I didn't feel that way reading your Dr. White iso today. It felt pretty comprehensive, though non-conclusive. Even after ISOing him, you refused to give a firm read on him, calling him decent overall, but leaving plenty of room to be swayed one way or the other, then asked Jimmy on what bad he saw in him. Opportunism.

Epi cases ColinIsCool, in great depth, amidst your downfall with RYMers and you take it as a lifeline to see what Epi has cooked up.

MacDougall mentions a possible RDW scumslip - you really jumped for that one. MacDougall claims it was a gag, and you back off.

WIFOM - I didn't go after Colin, because Colin is definitely town. TMI.

Voting for MacDougall when he was an easy lynch target being on holiday and all, then quickly following Long Con on the Shaman whom you drafted (which is still a question mark for me) makes two bad vote lynch decisions that look really opportunistic for you.

reeks of opportunism on all fronts this phase.

FWIW I think this is a pretty strong case.

colonialbob wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:33 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:27 pm
colonialbob wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:22 pm @ColinIsCool the only thing I don't get is why you brought the nightkill into it when we were barely halfway into the day phase?
I straight up don't understand this question any time anybody's asked it. Because the things you do in the day phase affect how the mafia perceives you and if you get nightkilled on day 1, you don't live to day 2, and you can't contribute useful information/win the game? Is there a difference in fundamental game mechanics between this site and everywhere else in the universe Mafia is played that I'm not getting?
Because he still has ~24 hours to talk about why he asked his question and what he felt like he learned. He doesn't want to do so before everybody has responded because that skews what responses he gets.

Obviously ridiculous example: "please everybody name your favorite animal"
*answers by some but not all*
"Hey Epi why did you ask this?"
"Well see anybody who mentions a predator is scientifically proven to be mafia"
*remaining players all name fuzzy herbivores*

Did those last players respond honestly or because they knew what he waa looking for?

I guess I just don't see how those posts are going to be useful if the only thing that's happened is the lynch (I don't see how they're useful in the first place), and how when asking, I am hand-waved and given that "damn good reason" nonsense (which none of you seem to agree with, so, whateva)

dunya wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:30 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:27 pm
colonialbob wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:22 pm @ColinIsCool the only thing I don't get is why you brought the nightkill into it when we were barely halfway into the day phase?
I straight up don't understand this question any time anybody's asked it. Because the things you do in the day phase affect how the mafia perceives you and if you get nightkilled on day 1, you don't live to day 2, and you can't contribute useful information/win the game? Is there a difference in fundamental game mechanics between this site and everywhere else in the universe Mafia is played that I'm not getting?
yea, you get killed on night 1 instead of day 1. Night 1 comes after Day 1 and before Day 2.

Right right right, that's what I meant. Day 1 to Night 1 to Day 2. Still don't see why people are confused by my anticipating the future.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:18 pm
ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:13 pm Adjust behavior accordingly ... as in, maybe night kill him? Weren't you just saying you don't understand what I was saying about that?
No. What I am talking about has nothing to do with night kills. I am saying that there are responsive capacities to whatever reads Epi might derive from his exercise. He might have certain expectations for how it will be handled or treated in this thread, and to tip off those expectations in any way neutralizes his ability to take advantage of his own move. I am talking behavioral adjustments by the mafia team in the game thread where he can see them.

I am less suspicious of you now that I was a few hours ago, so this doesn't need to remain a constant argument. Go hunt, find bad guys, and I'll continue to mull it over.

I just don't see it, man. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, I'll readily admit it when I'm wrong, but I've already given a lot of reasons for why the whole thing doesn't make sense to me strategically, reasons other people have voiced without getting heat for.

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