The Syndicate

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:10 am I suppose there is also some chance that Sloonei actually shot Ted and is just claiming credit for the TH kill which was actually by Mac. But Sloonei's suspicion of TH is well documented from earlier, and he didn't know he was going to have a vig shot until sometime during d2, and he wouldn't have known Mac would kill TH if that's what happened. So all pretty far-fetched.

Hold on. I actually believe this one. I didn't even consider that, thanks a lot. I believe Sloonei actually shot Ted and is a wolf.

The mafia should have fakeclaims, yes, but even so. That is six claims from town for us to work with. And just because scum have safe roles to claim, it does not mean they have safe actions to claim.

Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:03 am y'all are thinking too much

this is simpler than you're making it out to be. like i get why you have to do this, but still. idk what to do other than make faces at my laptop

You could help us think too much to make it be over sooner.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:59 am True true.


Wait.

I just realized something obvious.

FG also saw Ted and Drago target Mac N1, yes?

They don't have pirate ships.

So that further corroborates that Mac didn't use it N1.

That whole argument was stupid.

:haha:

Well, the idea is that Funnygurl could be lying. I personally do not believe it, but some people do.
We are also ignoring the possibility that Mac can still be targeted, and shown as targeted, but actions simply fail. Though in that instance Funnygurl's watch would still have to be immune to the fail effect.

Here is the thing. According to the wiki, Bayek is literally able to see through the eyes of Senu with Eagle Vision. So, it is not a stretch and in fact is rather quite intuitive to believe that the role works outside normal resolution, similar to a commuter.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:57 am I mean, it's sort of due to the fact that you backed up the silly flavor thing. That's just silly.

She has an eagle. It's already silly.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:56 am I don't understand your point. What is the highlighted portion even referring to

Tonally, I should sound nothing like "ya girl".

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:55 am

ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:09 am There, I know I am town, so the wolves can go ahead and hammer. They are not doing so, so I cannot help but be certain that Epignosis is mafia (and furthermore that funnygurl is not).

This is fun :wine:

I mean you're probably right. But still XD

No point in living in worlds where mafia choose not to win, imo.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:53 am Sorry, FG's argument, not mikey's. Thought this quote was FG lol. Still

Even with the massive tonal gap... Impressive. I am just saying, I have not been able to fully understand a single darned role in this game after a single read.

I still do not know how Dragomir's role worked, because I only read it once.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:48 am I don’t care about powers. I care about characters. For a reason I’m not currently willing to specify

Then why would you ask for the role?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:43 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:38 am I am only barely here at present. Regarding a "mass claim" -- I don't see a problem with it off-hand assuming all rules are respected. The game hangs in the balance after all, and if some key information is withheld too carefully that would otherwise influence reads, then that's not ideal.

Such an action really depends upon the roles in question and how individuals feel they may be able to take advantage of them. I only advise that too much caution right now is of little benefit. LyLo.

Who are you? Role

It is probably better to start off the massclaims with the next wolfiest people. Since the mechanical dichotomy already claimed, it makes more sense to have you/speedchuck/long con/me claim first, and have sloonei/jjj/nutella claim afterwards.

I need to stop responding to you, otherwise I might tinfoil a world where you miscount parity and shoot a partner for safety.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:38 am

ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:33 am They start off fine, but arriving at the conclusion that Funnygurl must be lying... because eagles... or something... doesn't feel like honest solving to me.

I never brought up eagles. That was all funnygurl. Which part of the progression do you dislike or not follow?

>Mac’s pirate ship makes him immune to abilities by players who are not also on pirate ships.
>funnygurl claims to have targeted Mac on Night 1.
>funnygurl says she thinks Mac used his pirate ship Night 1.
>funnygurl confirms she does not have a pirate ship, in which case she would not have been able to target Mac had he been on his ship Night 1.

Do you disagree that there is potential for her to be caught in a lie here? It is not confirmed and I do not intend to act like it is. But this absolutely should he explored before we make a decision. I don’t see how we could justify not talking about it.

Well, it kind of hinges on the assumption that none of the wolves had read the flips... Because then otherwise they would have claimed to have a pirate ship. It also means that wolves wanted to ensure Epignosis sunk here, which, why? He claimed to roleblock Sloonei Night 2. That's pretty close to being the lynch anyway. Wolves do not need to push it any further. Trying to push the pirate ship angle just does not do a lot for me.

Whatever, you aren't a wolf. You do you.

They start off fine, but arriving at the conclusion that Funnygurl must be lying... because eagles... or something... doesn't feel like honest solving to me.

A good example is your line of questioning on Funnygurl. If you were not mechanically town I would wolf read you for it.

I will amend to say that by terrible I mean they are not questions that I think you should be asking, which is certainly similar to my gripe with you day 1.

Is it bad if I still wolf read you for tone, behavior, and asking terrible questions all day?
I just have to keep in mind that if you were a wolf, you would have already won last night.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:20 am If Mac used his ship last night, the mafia team would have needed to guess/know that he was using it and used their own player who also has a pirate ship to specifically target him.

If Mac didn't use his ship last night then he used it on Night 1. If Mac used his ship on Night 1, I maintain that funnygurl is probably lying.

Not necessarily. It did not say Macdougall could only target players on pirate ships, so it is entirely possible that the person making the nightkill was on a pirate ship to strategically make the odds of the nightkill going through higher.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:16 am

ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:14 am I... really think massclaiming is the right thing to do. If JJJ disagrees, then I cannot really push the issue further, but I believe it would increase our odds of winning, however slight.

Why?

It gives us a clearer mechanical picture of what happened on nights 1 and 2, it has a chance for us to structure a plan of action to lock a winning night phase, and it gives mafia a small chance to out themselves.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:16 am Devil's advocate to all of these points:
Appearing cooperative is something a member of the mafia team would want to do. It would be one of their primary goals.
Epi's response is one of frustration because he is a civilian and he's being lied about.
He has not been clear on the language of his role card, but I would not leap to say that is "refusal to provide information." It could just as easily be miscommunication.
Epi is not caught in a lie if funnygurl is the one who is lying.

Your first two lines are pretty stupid, so I will ignore them.
If Epignosis' communication of his role PM is poor, then he has a responsibility to communicate with the host to elucidate him on the nature of his abilities. Even if Funnygurl is lying, Epignosis is still caught in a lie, for both saying, "I forgot to submit any night actions for night 1," and, "I targeted Mac night 1 but got 'limited'."

I... really think massclaiming is the right thing to do. If JJJ disagrees, then I cannot really push the issue further, but I believe it would increase our odds of winning, however slight.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:10 am Why do you believe funnygurl over epi?

There is a potential for me to be biased, but I do believe funnygurl has played the townier and more cooperative game up to this point. Upon being made aware of the dichotomy, Epignosis has not done any favors for himself, threatening to self-hammer (which if he truly was a villager would throw the game on the spot), refusing to provide information or deliberately being obfuscating, being unwilling to case Funnygurl or show why he is town, and being caught in lies beyond that (such as whether or not he had targeted anyone N1).

There, I know I am town, so the wolves can go ahead and hammer. They are not doing so, so I cannot help but be certain that Epignosis is mafia (and furthermore that funnygurl is not).

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:06 am well now we're getting into a tricky gray area, because this raises the question of whether or not there is anything in the language of your role card that implies this would be the case, but asking that feels unethical and I wouldn't want to do anything that could possibly break the game. All I will say is that Mac's role card indicates firmly that no one should be able to target him unless they also have a pirate ship and are using it at the same time as he is. There is no hint of exceptions in his role card. You've already told us you don't have a pirate ship.

It is super easy to justify flavorfully, and the role PMs have already shown to have unclear wording at times.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:05 am

ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:04 am

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:59 pm Some stuff that hits slightly different if he sometimes has immunity. Can’t decipher if he expected to be immune night one or night two.

I'm sorry, but I do not get the same analysis here as you do. It looks to me like he is just including himself in the PoE. I would also expected MacDougall to have claimed the shot.

If he had shot night 1?

Specifically, if he had shot Dragomir.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:04 am
okay I’ve had enough
Vote FG

it’s Epi FG Speed lock it in

If you believe it to be both, will you commit to lynching Epignosis today?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:59 pm Some stuff that hits slightly different if he sometimes has immunity. Can’t decipher if he expected to be immune night one or night two.

I'm sorry, but I do not get the same analysis here as you do. It looks to me like he is just including himself in the PoE. I would also expected MacDougall to have claimed the shot.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:04 am I am wondering whether TS Account's game quality here has risen exactly because of his alignment (and contributing partners)?

Excuse me but Mac what the heck is this supposed to mean?!

Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:58 pm my analysis could just be wrong then. perhaps i couldn't have watched mac if he did use his power n1

but that just means he either used it n2 or holstered it. but i assumed eagles could find pirate ships 'cause eagles can fly over water :confused2: :confused2:

Sorry, what? I need you to rephrase this.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:55 pm Mac’s own discussion of why he wasn’t killed night 1 comes into play

Link to this.

As it stands, I see too many things pointing to Epignosis being the wolf of the two. And hey, if I am wrong, Funnygurl 2 stronk.
[VOTE: Epignosis] aubergine

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:47 pm
You’re wrong

Do you not agree that there is mechanically a wolf in Epignosis and Funnygurl?

Since nobody is claiming the Ted kill, we have to assume that it was either MacDougall using his kill or mafia had access to two KP last night.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:42 pm

ts account wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:40 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:37 pm What if he wasn't confident enough in any of his reads to justify killing someone?

That should not be a real thought. A vigshot is simply a public cop check. It is always beneficial to use it if one is given to you (and funnygurl is right in her post, that night 1 seems more optimal to use it than night 2, if macdougall was indeed given the option).

A misfire reduces town's numbers. That is damaging. It's a very real thought that I have any time I have that ability. I almost didn't shoot anyone last night.

Had you not, you would have misplayed. It is that simple.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:37 pm What if he wasn't confident enough in any of his reads to justify killing someone?

That should not be a real thought. A vigshot is simply a public cop check. It is always beneficial to use it if one is given to you (and funnygurl is right in her post, that night 1 seems more optimal to use it than night 2, if macdougall was indeed given the option).

Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:33 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:22 pm Master Radishes [4]: Funnygurl, Epi, Long Con, Turnip Head
Turnip Head [4]: MacDougall, Master Radishes, Sloonei, speedchuck
speedchuck [3]: tedxtr, ts account, TonyStarkPrime

speed's town now right? he was that last vote for turnip 8 min before eod

If we take wagonomics to gospel, then the final three wolves need to be in funnygurl/epi/long con/tsp from my pov.
I do not consider you and epignosis to be compatible partners. I believe you over epignosis currently, which leads me to epignosis/long con/tonystarkprime. Is that a viable wolf team? I do not know, and if you throw turnip head into the mix it becomes even more confusing.

This is still discussion of the future. A majority of our discussion should be focused on who to lynch between Funnygurl and Epignosis and why it is epignosis

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:23 pm

ts account wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:17 pm So it is just a bit confusing no matter which night you suspect Macdougall might have used it. We have information missing.

Do you think it's possible Mac used it Night 1 but opted not to kill anybody?

Macdougall is a player so good that I will unquestionably sheep any read he tells me to.
He would not dismiss the chance for a town KP.

So it is just a bit confusing no matter which night you suspect Macdougall might have used it. We have information missing.

Edward Kenway

Pirate Ship: You have a pirate ship! That’s awesome, dude. Using your pirate ship, you can make yourself untargetable to anyone that doesn’t also possess a ship. You can only use this ability every other night though, cause you have to restock your food and supplies. While on your ship, you can target someone to try and kill.

You are a Righteous Warrior and win when all the Heathenous Spies have been eliminated.

*****

Here is the problem I have.
My favored interpretation of this role is one that commutes and vigs every other night. So, if Macdougall used it night 1, I believe they would have used a vig that night as well. Since we see 3 kills here, I think it is just more likely Macdougall used it tonight. The problem with that is that ted would have had to be Macdougall's kill, and Macdougall would have been the mafia kill. Did Macdougall really suspect ted? I thought they were in the towncore.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:06 pm

ts account wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:03 pm Given how relevant it could end up being, perhaps someone should read through the thread and calculate day 2's votes by hand.

Did mac sail away on his boat on night 1 or night 2?

I do not know. In all honesty, I do not understand how the role works with only how it is written. Is it a commute+vigi every other night? A commute/vigi alternating? A commute every other night with a 1x vig that can only be used the same night as a commute?
I am looking at all the flips right now.

Given how relevant it could end up being, perhaps someone should read through the thread and calculate day 2's votes by hand.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:35 pm

ts account wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:34 pm Anyway, right now there is a dichotomy between funnygurl and epignosis, and that needs to be resolved.
We could also massclaim, just to be sure.

Mass claiming would not resolve any of the questions I currently have.

You wouldn't know that without the massclaim actually happening.

Anyway, right now there is a dichotomy between funnygurl and epignosis, and that needs to be resolved.
We could also massclaim, just to be sure.

Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:31 pm are we like absolutely sure there's 4 wolves?

More or less literal gods came down and said so.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:20 pm

ts account wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:19 pm Ignoring any sort of mechanical night action oddities, Epignosis is a wolf here just by the wagonomics... Or was, I suppose, before the unvote. Now all you could say is that there is guaranteed one or more scum between Epignosis/Long Con.

How comfortable are you ignoring those?

Entirely comfortable. In worlds where you are both telling the truth about your roles, you are still a wolf.

Ignoring any sort of mechanical night action oddities, Epignosis is a wolf here just by the wagonomics... Or was, I suppose, before the unvote. Now all you could say is that there is guaranteed one or more scum between Epignosis/Long Con.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:00 pm I maintain that speedchuck is the right lynch today, if our interlopers are to be trusted.

I seriously need some character claims from some people. @speedchuck @Epignosis Here’s the defense: it’s role madness and I know nothing about Assassin’s Creed so you’re not losing much.

This is the wolf case.

Funnygurl can back me up on this. We're in the middle of a mechanical dichotomy, and someone wants us to lynch outside the mechanical dichotomy. Somehow, that makes you a wolf.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:31 pm Hammer is five, not four. LC and Sloonei doesn’t make this confirmed

There are currently three votes. If only one of LC/Sloonei is mafia, they can still hammer. Both of them need to be mafia for it to not be a hammer.

Oh, judging by vote count, if Epignosis is town, then Long Con and Sloonei both need to be mafia, otherwise mafia would just hammer and win. So Epignosis is definitely outed wolf.