The Syndicate

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:26 pm NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME, you say if you were mafia you would have probably distanced from MR on Day 1. You did in fact vote for MR earlier in the evening and then at some point changed your vote, prior to Hyena getting you to vote him. Why shouldn't we consider that as you trying to distance from him?

If you were mafia, it seems like a good way to distance from the other mafia would be to vote for him (MP) yesterday and convince your partner to join you. Why should we believe that didn't happen? (I wasn't there to see how the whole vote went down.)

1. You can read it that way if you want. There isn’t really an argument besides “I’m town,” so. I don’t *think* my vote was on radishes before hyena bargained me there, could be remember wrong though? IIRC I had a jokey LC vote then was on Sig.

2. That isn’t distancing, it’s hard bussing my partner to make the game demonstrably harder to win. I already wasn’t particularly in danger of dying, I don’t think I would really need to kill MP to win if I were scum.

Mafia generally feel pressure to put distance between themselves and their partner/s, yeah? That’s the pressure I’m referring to. Imo this is amplified when one partner is absent entirely (but likely to be replaced).

Idk, it seems like a good play to me, I probably would’ve done it if I were mafia

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:43 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:12 am
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:20 am
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:14 pm Juliets lacks any votes, mechanics, allegiances or anti-alignments that separate her as town. All she has is a. her claim (do scum have fakeclaims, idk) and b. the fact that she's felt pretty towny all game. She's been in that second-to-lynch position, but keeps scraping by.

Everyone else in the game has more than she does separating them from the scumteam.
Thanks for saving me the words.

[VOTE: juliets] aubergine

Yeah and I know you are not voting here but I feel juliets' "not telling Jack to move away from MP" looks less good than Nanook tagging me to make me change to MP and then later convincing me to do it when I showed up 3 minutes before the deadline.
Let me be devil’s advocate.

If Juliets is a wolf with MP, her giving up her vote and convincing me to vote away from Tony means there is a 2/3rds chance I vote a wolf instead. It doesn’t take her out of anyone’s POE except maybe mine.

If Nanook is a wolf with MP, the important thing is that he’s not in the POE and he remains not in the POE. A hard bus helps a lot with that.
You know what is better than not being in the POE?

A game with 5 townies and 2 scum left.

That's when it starts to look like a game that town can't win.

Agree with this.

I’m of the opinion that a scum team of radishes/poison/X on D1, X is probably more pressured to vote radishes than not, especially considering that they’d presumably be counting on Sloonei subbing in and being an active partner. Cause remember that nobody knew D1 that sloonei subbing in would also be a non entity.

It’s a great way to distance from radishes, and I don’t think there’d be an expectation that X would be playing by themselves.

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:35 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:28 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:16 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:04 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:03 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:51 am The other argument with Jules is that a) MP didnt look likely to be TKed when she left thread, and b) if she left thread with her vote parked somewhere to force Jack’s hand that’s sort of outing, yeah?
I'm not sure what you mean by the second item "if I left the thread with my vote parked somewhere to force Jack's hand". Jack and I shared a vote. I left the thread with the understanding there would probably be EOD chaos. I left the vote in his hands with no stipulations to not vote someone. How does that force his hand and out me?
No Jules, I’m saying if you’re mafia and you parked your vote somewhere then left thread that would out you.

I’m saying you kind of had to leave it in Jack’s hands, regardless of your alignment.
But that's not true. I could have said "I don't approve of a vote for MP, DDL (or anyone I thought Jack was reading as town) or me." That would have made MP one person in a list which is less suspect. Honestly though, if I was mafia I would have forced myself to stay to the end. I wouldn't have left my vote in someone else's hands.
I mean, that’s the kind of thing that I’ll believe when we’re not in the middle of a game
I know it's WIFOMy but really, can you see anyone who is mafia leaving the game and leaving their vote in the hands of someone else at EOD? It just doesn't make sense. You don't have to answer, your position is clear I guess.

linki - are you calling my logic flawed? I'm willing to listen and acknowledge if it is but you'll need to explain it to me.

When the alternative is semi-outing yourself, then yes I do think it makes sense lol

I mean that’s just...that logic is so obviously flawed, lol

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:16 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:04 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:03 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:51 am The other argument with Jules is that a) MP didnt look likely to be TKed when she left thread, and b) if she left thread with her vote parked somewhere to force Jack’s hand that’s sort of outing, yeah?
I'm not sure what you mean by the second item "if I left the thread with my vote parked somewhere to force Jack's hand". Jack and I shared a vote. I left the thread with the understanding there would probably be EOD chaos. I left the vote in his hands with no stipulations to not vote someone. How does that force his hand and out me?
No Jules, I’m saying if you’re mafia and you parked your vote somewhere then left thread that would out you.

I’m saying you kind of had to leave it in Jack’s hands, regardless of your alignment.
But that's not true. I could have said "I don't approve of a vote for MP, DDL (or anyone I thought Jack was reading as town) or me." That would have made MP one person in a list which is less suspect. Honestly though, if I was mafia I would have forced myself to stay to the end. I wouldn't have left my vote in someone else's hands.

I mean, that’s the kind of thing that I’ll believe when we’re not in the middle of a game

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:03 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:51 am The other argument with Jules is that a) MP didnt look likely to be TKed when she left thread, and b) if she left thread with her vote parked somewhere to force Jack’s hand that’s sort of outing, yeah?
I'm not sure what you mean by the second item "if I left the thread with my vote parked somewhere to force Jack's hand". Jack and I shared a vote. I left the thread with the understanding there would probably be EOD chaos. I left the vote in his hands with no stipulations to not vote someone. How does that force his hand and out me?

No Jules, I’m saying if you’re mafia and you parked your vote somewhere then left thread that would out you.

I’m saying you kind of had to leave it in Jack’s hands, regardless of your alignment.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:54 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:53 am
speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:52 am Is it weird that I'm totally okay with Jack suspecting me but nanook just fills me with righteous indignance?
I get that a lot tbh, I’m a favorite OMGUS target
I think it's because your style of play is so anathema to me.

Or because you've been tunnelling me all game.

Or because you're scum.

Could be all three quite frankly, but might be just two.

I’m used to the first. The second you’re at least as guilty of tbh

speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:52 am Is it weird that I'm totally okay with Jack suspecting me but nanook just fills me with righteous indignance?

I get that a lot tbh, I’m a favorite OMGUS target

Like I’m not pushing that that definitely makes her scum obviously, I just see it mostly as pretty much WIFOM

The other argument with Jules is that a) MP didnt look likely to be TKed when she left thread, and b) if she left thread with her vote parked somewhere to force Jack’s hand that’s sort of outing, yeah?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:05 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:53 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:10 am I’m actually kinda surprised you are tbh, didn’t we win a scum game together by all sussing each other? The wire maybe? It’s pretty much the same logic.
It’s not from a general rule standpoint. It’s also from a mindset standpoint. MP was in good spirits and also not really hammering Tony or Juliets or Wilgy in particular.

It feels in particular like the mindset of a wolf who knew we were headed for a town lynch and that either his partner was safe or he was thinking he’d be able to manipulate the POE on later days to make sure wolves were out of it. I think he pulls out some stuff to try to make himself look antialigned with Tony or Juliets if they’re his teammate or he works harder to expand the poe or shift them out of it.

Just being like “I’m fine with this” as we lynch his partner Tony or his partner Juliets is likely to go tomorrow does not seem like a winning strategy. We know MP is capable of Herculean effort. All he did was try to add DDL to the POE (citation needed).

Like I also don’t think wolf Juliets goes with the “but why am I scum” defense while letting me control our vote and privately expressing concern that Tony is town if she’s teamed with MP. That’s not opening the POE. That’s not taking her or her partner out of it. That’s shrinking it.
I’ve done the “agendaless wolf” play that I’m saying I don’t think Juliets is making.

It has resulted in me being POED out. It has resulted in very close games where I won because players were modkilled, giving me the extra town death I wasn’t going to get via mislynches.

And Juliets, amazing as her tone is, does not tend to passionately fight tooth and nail to prevent her own scum lynch the way I do. We both live our scum games on the bubble but she uses purity to be second or third priority and her own reads and opinions to not vote her partner whereas I lead mislynches and argue strongly that I’ve done townie things.

That is, I can live in a 4 player POE that contains both wolves, knowing I have a decent chance to force myself out of it or force someone into it or force a particular lynch order. Juliets cannot. She needs (and finds) a 5 player POE with 2 wolves in it or a 4 player POE with 1 wolf in it. She was not acting like wolf Juliets that needed to question a clear on a player outside the POE or just not see why MP could be a wolf and refuse to vote there.

I mean, I’m not saying your argument is wrong or bad, it’s just...I don’t find it particularly compelling. I am 100% happy to kill chuck and see if that ends the game though, we can have this disagreement tonight if necessary

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:39 am Someone remind me why we town cleared DDL. I can't remember the reason.

He voted radish almost solely at my urging with like 3 minutes in the day, I think without knowledge of the votecount, when he absolutely 100% did not need to.

I’m actually kinda surprised you are tbh, didn’t we win a scum game together by all sussing each other? The wire maybe? It’s pretty much the same logic.

It’s not so much that he was OK with tony dying, more that he moved Tony considerably more than any of his other reads. There is a chance that actually means “oh I should distance from my partner,” but I think it looks more like “SRing Tony is convenient and nobody will question me on it” tbh

I don’t really agree with the “MP was fine with X pool so that pool can’t contain his partner” though, that logic falls apart imo cause after one of him or the other mafia flip he or his partner could use exactly the logic you are to try and pull themselves out of the POE.

Or his partner wasn’t in there and he was fine with it.

That one’s more WIFOM imo, especially given how he basically used the same reads minus tony. Idk, I’m not comfortable reading into it anyways.

I guess Chuck took a half step up actually, MP fucking me up by not using the same colors or tiers.

MP's last D2 rainbow:

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:27 am Fixed:

MP7 random D2 feels reads whatever man

lock town
nutella
Nanook

strong town
Jack
Tony

maybe town
Hyena
LC
speed

POE by default
DDL
juliets
DrWilgy
Sloonei

Contrasted to his post-reincarnation D3 rainbow (sidenote: fuck, is it really just D4? This game has been action packed, man):

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:06 pm Gut-based MP7 2.0 D3 reads

Strong town:
Jack
Nanook

Moderate town:
Hyena

Slight town:
speed
DDL

POE:
DrWilgy
juliets
Tony

Jack and me have been consolidated to the same tier. DDL takes a step up from POE to slight town. Chuck stays in the same place, so do Wilgy and Jules and Hyena. The most interesting part, at least imo, is the precipitous drop of Tony from strong town to POE.

Now, maybe someone that knows MP's scum game will jump in and say "MP always shades his partners" or some shit like that ruin my evening, but to me that looks like MP going "shit, I'm scum now and I don't have enough suspects, who can I put....Tony, he's got suspicion on him, nobody will second guess me suspecting him too."

So yeah, pretty uninterested in Tony rn. If it comes to f3 (please lord no), obviously I would reconsider, but, I mean....this looks pretty convincing to me tbh, enough so that it's pretty well reaffirmed my decision not to seriously consider Tony today.

Like what kind of a question is “if you’re alive at f3 and chuck and Jules flipped town and Tony’s alive too, would you consider he might be mafia?”

What am I gonna say, “no I’ll bury my head in the sand and try to TK chuck a second time?”

speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:29 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:27 pm I mean I don’t think I’m ever considering Tony before Chuck and Jules tbh

Hyena, I’m not going to plan for chuck to flip scum, because if chuck flips scum the game ends? That’s uh...pretty basic?
What about after?

If you and Jules both flip town then obviously yes I need to reconsider tony if I’m still alive

I also will eat a hat and/or an obscene amount of gummy worms

I just don’t see it as likely that we had two mafia up yesterday

Plus I really want to be able to say I was right about tony all along

I mean I don’t think I’m ever considering Tony before Chuck and Jules tbh

Hyena, I’m not going to plan for chuck to flip scum, because if chuck flips scum the game ends? That’s uh...pretty basic?

I don’t think you’re the most likely to flip scum, idk how it’s so fucking hard to understand that or why it has to keep being said.

juliets wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:04 pm @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME why won't you claim?

I don’t believe it’s town positive for me to claim rn.

I genuinely cannot tell if you’re mafia setting up your f3 mis-kill or if you’re town playing poorly. If this were D1 I’d probably be happy to kill you tbh, but today requires more care

Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:52 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:43 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:22 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:12 pm I guess you can’t both be scum but man do I want you to be
After the whole game where you've felt like I was town what would make you think I'm scum?
POE.

Though tbh I’m kind of even on you and hyena at this point.
Again, if you think I could be scum, then why don't you guys TK me today and let me confirm Jack and Tony for you guys?

You’re not the scummiest/least townie player on the board imo

Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:41 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:42 pm
Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:30 pm Nanook, have you claimed yet? I don't remember if you have or not.
Nope
Can you claim?

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:46 pm
Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:14 pm Nanook, your push on Poison D1 reminds me of the votes you made on our partners abraker and Juri in Champs where you made them early enough in the day that they'd likely get deflated by the time EoD rolled around.

(for reference: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ost3283034 )
I also just murderered the fuck out of that slot yesterday, so. I guess that’s not convenient for you tho.
Aside from me and the two others on my team, who didn't?

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:10 pm Tbh I don’t know how to process hyena right now. Him pushing me feels like an attempt to widen the POE, but idk how that jives with him also saying chuck is clear.

(It took me like 40 minutes to find a charger to post this, jfc. I’ll be back tonight. Will catch up then.)
I don't think it's Speed, Juliets, or DDL. I'm probably just being paranoid about Jack. That literally leaves only you and Tony. I don't understand how you can call that widening the POE.

1. No

2. DDL can confirm, I absolutely did not have to kill MP, and yet I pushed for it and facilitated it happening.

3. The wider POE does not include me, or should not. You’re pushing to put me back in it.

juliets wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:22 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:12 pm I guess you can’t both be scum but man do I want you to be
After the whole game where you've felt like I was town what would make you think I'm scum?

POE.

Though tbh I’m kind of even on you and hyena at this point.

I guess you can’t both be scum but man do I want you to be

My vote put him at 5-3-3 IIRC

(I lied, I can’t help myself. Now I’m actually leaving though, back tonight probably)

speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:00 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:57 pm @speedchuck let’s say you magically got to decide the lynch order but you had to do it right now.

Go.
Juliets, Nanook, Tony.

This is an insane order

speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:51 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:50 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:42 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:30 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:02 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:58 pm It’d be hilarious if I voted Juliets but I kinda think it’s Nanook and MP.

Or Juliets and Nanook or MP.
Jack Speak to this 'Nanook and MP' thing. I've not seen any indication in your posts as to why nanook would be here.

Ignore that nanook participated in the MP lynch for a moment. What did you mean here?
Idk. There’s been some gut feelings all around that Nanook could be bad. Nanook was outside of MP’s POE. Iirc, Nanook had MP gth town. Nanook has been defending Juliets and going after you. He’s also very eager to get cred for MP’s lynch. He called attention to his earlier suggestion to lynch absent players and said something like “in before Jack says I didn’t cause MP to be lynched.”

That all said, he’s felt really town today. DDL really trusts him and I really trust DDL.
I'm surprised you said he felt town today. All he's done is piss on questions people are asking, saying it's unproductive.

And yeah, DDL has chat info about the way nanook turned on MP at the end. That would have to be a bus.

I'm just trying to get some idea of where you guys are going to go once you lynch me and Juliets, assuming she doesn't end it.
Were the questions productive? If they were, defend them as such. If they weren’t, I have the right to piss on them.
Claims? Checking to see if Jack was roleblocked? More information is never bad.

Stifling discussion is almost always bad.

I’d disagree, but then you’d SR me again for playing differently than you.

Tbh I don’t know how to process hyena right now. Him pushing me feels like an attempt to widen the POE, but idk how that jives with him also saying chuck is clear.

(It took me like 40 minutes to find a charger to post this, jfc. I’ll be back tonight. Will catch up then.)

speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:42 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:30 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:02 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:58 pm It’d be hilarious if I voted Juliets but I kinda think it’s Nanook and MP.

Or Juliets and Nanook or MP.
Jack Speak to this 'Nanook and MP' thing. I've not seen any indication in your posts as to why nanook would be here.

Ignore that nanook participated in the MP lynch for a moment. What did you mean here?
Idk. There’s been some gut feelings all around that Nanook could be bad. Nanook was outside of MP’s POE. Iirc, Nanook had MP gth town. Nanook has been defending Juliets and going after you. He’s also very eager to get cred for MP’s lynch. He called attention to his earlier suggestion to lynch absent players and said something like “in before Jack says I didn’t cause MP to be lynched.”

That all said, he’s felt really town today. DDL really trusts him and I really trust DDL.
I'm surprised you said he felt town today. All he's done is piss on questions people are asking, saying it's unproductive.

And yeah, DDL has chat info about the way nanook turned on MP at the end. That would have to be a bus.

I'm just trying to get some idea of where you guys are going to go once you lynch me and Juliets, assuming she doesn't end it.

Were the questions productive? If they were, defend them as such. If they weren’t, I have the right to piss on them.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:46 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:46 pm
Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:14 pm Nanook, your push on Poison D1 reminds me of the votes you made on our partners abraker and Juri in Champs where you made them early enough in the day that they'd likely get deflated by the time EoD rolled around.

(for reference: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ost3283034 )
I also just murderered the fuck out of that slot yesterday, so. I guess that’s not convenient for you tho.
Ooh, is this a suspicion of Hyena?

It’s a comment on his tunnel, not his alignment. Hyena remains second tier of interest for me.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:30 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:02 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:58 pm It’d be hilarious if I voted Juliets but I kinda think it’s Nanook and MP.

Or Juliets and Nanook or MP.
Jack Speak to this 'Nanook and MP' thing. I've not seen any indication in your posts as to why nanook would be here.

Ignore that nanook participated in the MP lynch for a moment. What did you mean here?
Idk. There’s been some gut feelings all around that Nanook could be bad. Nanook was outside of MP’s POE. Iirc, Nanook had MP gth town. Nanook has been defending Juliets and going after you. He’s also very eager to get cred for MP’s lynch. He called attention to his earlier suggestion to lynch absent players and said something like “in before Jack says I didn’t cause MP to be lynched.”

That all said, he’s felt really town today. DDL really trusts him and I really trust DDL.

I didn’t do GTH, but I wouldn’t have had him town, lol

Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:14 pm Nanook, your push on Poison D1 reminds me of the votes you made on our partners abraker and Juri in Champs where you made them early enough in the day that they'd likely get deflated by the time EoD rolled around.

(for reference: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ost3283034 )

I also just murderered the fuck out of that slot yesterday, so. I guess that’s not convenient for you tho.

Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:30 pm Nanook, have you claimed yet? I don't remember if you have or not.

Nope

I’m not really convinced claims matter tbh

Most suspicious...hah

More like least townie tbh

I’m gonna let jack handle this one lol

Do you uh

Think that jack or tony is mafia?

To the point that you want to die to test them?

Cause we don’t save a kill by you dying, lol.

Sure

I don’t see any need to confirm his role or whatever? He’s clearly what he says he is, we know there’s an announcer and nobody has CCed, so.

I cannot think of a less meaningful question

Could be a "hey look the more active confirmeds aren't getting killed maybe look at them" kill.

Could be PR hunting, but they weren't paying much attention if so since wilgy soft revealed.

Idk, I'm not worried about it rn tbh.

I'm starting out with a chuck vote, I kinda do think it's as easy as a two person POE tbh

I think it's clear which mod wrote that one

So maybe it isn’t THAT risky of a fake claim. Still inclined to believe it but maybe not as blindly confident as I was.

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