The Syndicate

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:38 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:37 pm what would have happened if the mafia team dies and 112 and alison are both alive? who gets the factional kill?

and what would have happened if 112 and alison achieved their win cons at the same time?

They both would.

Impossible. Things would continue.

I don't think it's impossible mechanically for us to fulfil our win condition at the same time.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:17 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:14 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:12 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:11 pm but really, i'm glad you were entertained by the spectacle, c4! I've never had more fun getting steamrolled.

So do you guys... usually start whole DnD games in the middle of your mafia?

Is that not standard?

My home community is pretty unorthodox, guess there are some things we need to update. We don't even force wolves to talk in Simpsons quotes.

this is actually the second game involving wolves talking in Simpsons quotes

No DVC is the saddest bit to be honest. I would have loved to see the spectators watching along.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:11 pm I agree with the things you point out, Alison. Martin obvious town. How come we are never town together? Space invaders, lion king and now this? Rude.

Host rerands the game every time that happens because it's too unbalanced.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:07 pm Was sorta speccing this for a while. Actually read the first 50 pages straight before I started skipping, proud of that.

So many people forgot night actions that I legit thought it was a mechanic.

You read more pages than me.

Between Space Invaders, Mysterious Universe, Shadow Corridors and this game, I'm probably going to get policy executed every time town does well at the start but the game drags on for longer than expected.

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:02 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:51 pm I was fully ready to blast Tim's ass to kingdom come because I suspected he might snipe me at night. Luckily he died before then.

If I made it to N9 you were the target, yes.

I had to zip my lips about a few things that I thought were really obvious through this game but that I didn't want to say because, well, it didn't benefit me to do so. One was that Martin was super obvtown. The other was that rebelling against authority was a towntell for you. See Radiohead (town), where you pulled the same "we're getting played shut the POE down and dismantle the towncore" line after a strong town opening versus Simpsons Mafia (scum), where you went along with a horrific bad POE for 3 days.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:44 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:43 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:42 pm On the scale of sloonei/nanook mafia team collapses this was a solid 6/7

Pretty good but we've done better

I was really sad you guys died, I wanted you to stick around to keep town distracted until I won. I was kinda scared I'd get nightkilled early for being a power role dispenser though which is why I made such a point about refusing to help town solve and being as afk as possible.

Yeah we had way bigger problems to worry about with NKs than you lolol

I searched the mafia chat and you did bring me up as a possible NK target! I was really frightened of getting shot - I requested night action redirection for the first few days and only started redirecting votes when it was clear mafia couldn't afford to shoot someone that wasn't town.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:58 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:53 pm Fun fact, dunia and Epi double checked with me whether I read my role card correctly because they thought I was under the impression I was benign.

Spoiler: show

dunia — 02/09/2021
i just wanted to make sure
A/I/R — 02/09/2021
yes?
dunia — 02/09/2021
you know that you win alone?
A/I/R — 02/09/2021
yes
dunia — 02/09/2021
ok!
A/I/R — 02/09/2021
I'm going to tell them I'll side with town
dunia — 02/09/2021
me and epi just wondered
A/I/R — 02/09/2021
and then they'll let me fulfil my win condition
and then I'll win alone and everyone else loses
it'll be great
unless I die of course

Protip: If someone in an Epi designed mafia game says "Guys I just gotta xyz leave me alone so I can get a free win," where claiming is legal, it's a lie.

I saw what Alison did and could not believe that was tolerated.

I was surprised too. I gave myself I think 15% chance of winning at the start of the game. I even thought about playing normally and trying to pretend to be town, but I didn't have a team - one rolecop or parity cop and I'm dead. Plus if I play too townie I get shot by the mafia and if I play too scummy I get shot by town. So I said fuck it, I'll gamble the game on an afk strat and pray to god they don't notice.

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:55 pm Best moment of the game Jack only realizing he's a town cop d3 after nutella revives him. Lmao.

The number of people that didn't submit night actions was crazy btw. I mean it happens to everyone - I did it once myself - but there were so many in the same game. Yeesh.

Fun fact, dunia and Epi double checked with me whether I read my role card correctly because they thought I was under the impression I was benign.

I was fully ready to blast Tim's ass to kingdom come because I suspected he might snipe me at night. Luckily he died before then.

Also yes I shot HK because he was tracked nowhere, didn't seem like the kind of slot that would gift me a free win out of sentiment, and wasn't a bargainee.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:45 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:40 pm I thought I would be turbo'd when 112 flipped hostile 3P with a very similar win condition to mine. I also thought I would be mech outed by the no exe plan - those were close shaves. TSP violating the post restriction and getting modkilled (which is what I assumed happened?) was good for me also.

I actually think that helped you. It made it slightly likelier the other was benign imo.

But in the end I just knew we were all town and nothing else made sense.

I’m a bit disappointed I wasn’t able to be more direct or bossy with it. I’m noisy, but not so directory. Something to improve, but it’s also just my personality.

If I was town I'd have been screaming blue murder. I hate it when people do blatantly suboptimal things for no good reason, especially when those things affect my win con. I'd probably just spew out a stream of monologues about game theory and hard order people to do things my way. That's just my style though - I won't claim it's the only way that works. Possibly a softer touch would have worked this game since I think people got a lil sus of you for pushing so hard against the "plan".

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:44 pm Wait til you guys see how dedicated our plan was in scum chat.

Dunia told me it was private

Made wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:43 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:39 pm I usually am pretty harsh on exeing 3Ps if I'm town to be honest. For instance I exe survivor claims on policy. If I was town here I would have been really forceful in trying to get you to exe 3P because helping 3P win is strictly suboptimal and sentiment is bad etc.

I'm not sure. Like if you were telling the truth, it would of been optimal play I think. Big if in a closed setup game, but still. Like if you could of won with town, then bringing you to lylo/mylo is always good for a strong town.

The issue I think was the trust and assumptions town made of the set up

Well optimal play would be to drag me as late as possible to squeeze max value out of my bargains and then exe me the moment before I won.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:42 pm On the scale of sloonei/nanook mafia team collapses this was a solid 6/7

Pretty good but we've done better

I was really sad you guys died, I wanted you to stick around to keep town distracted until I won. I was kinda scared I'd get nightkilled early for being a power role dispenser though which is why I made such a point about refusing to help town solve and being as afk as possible.

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:40 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:39 pm I usually am pretty harsh on exeing 3Ps if I'm town to be honest. For instance I exe survivor claims on policy. If I was town here I would have been really forceful in trying to get you to exe 3P because helping 3P win is strictly suboptimal and sentiment is bad etc.

Yeah, that's probably a good general plan

Yeah town should pretty much ~never help 3Ps out unless it really really benefits them for seriously low risk. Open setups might work for this scenario, maybe. Closed setups, never.

I thought I would be turbo'd when 112 flipped hostile 3P with a very similar win condition to mine. I also thought I would be mech outed by the no exe plan - those were close shaves. TSP violating the post restriction and getting modkilled (which is what I assumed happened?) was good for me also.

I usually am pretty harsh on exeing 3Ps if I'm town to be honest. For instance I exe survivor claims on policy. If I was town here I would have been really forceful in trying to get you to exe 3P because helping 3P win is strictly suboptimal and sentiment is bad etc.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:37 pm I even wrote “I accept with a heavy heart” when I accepted the bargain. I knew it was wrong. But in the end, we didn’t quite get there.

Only five mafia was a bit of a surprise.

If I was town there I would accept the bargain and turbo the 3P the next day without mercy. And I would be incredibly aggressive/outraged if town didn't do that.

Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:35 pm

Hyena wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:34 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:32 pm Very stupid ending, but fun game!

Town did well overall except the huge mistake in the end. Well done, everyone.

Thanks for the game, Epi and Dunya <3

When you suggested wanting to kill Alison that final time, I was actually serious about considering going there... I just forgot that the votes would redirect to you.

Was there any way we could have one that final day aside from Tutuu just not accepting the deal?

maybe if we no yeeted

No exe only works if Dizzy blocks me and convinces town that scum didn't holster (ie. that I am scum).

Or, well, tutuu not accepting the deal, exeing a bargainee, those things would have delayed me from winning and potentially allowed town to get there on the last day.

Hyena wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:34 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:32 pm Very stupid ending, but fun game!

Town did well overall except the huge mistake in the end. Well done, everyone.

Thanks for the game, Epi and Dunya <3

When you suggested wanting to kill Alison that final time, I was actually serious about considering going there... I just forgot that the votes would redirect to you.

Was there any way we could have one that final day aside from Tutuu just not accepting the deal?

Yes, you could have voted Michelle and had her switch the poll to me. I redirect votes, not polls.

I will say that this game was interesting because it involved me making heavy use of two tactics that I almost never use as scum: hard afking for long stretches of time and lots of AtE. I do think it demonstrates why sentiment has no place in a game of deception and Dizzy was right to say that town shouldn't be letting a 3P win just out of gratitude or emotion when it might sabotage their own win condition.

Anyway thanks for the game everyone sorry the ending was lame. I did what I thought was optimal to secure victory and apologized to dunia that I wasn't more active, because I think this is the strategy I would adopt if I was a benign 3P like I was claiming to be also.

Here is a short meme I made while waiting for Epi to give the flip

Dizzy was correct about virtually everything I just had to gaslight him and the rest of the thread into not believing it. Rest of the game was just me afking. When dunia told me I was going to inherit the mafia nightkill I didn't know who to shoot because I wasn't following the thread. I just shot Jack because he was flipped town and I didn't realize that TSP was a doctor because I wasn't reading.

rest in peace

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:32 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:27 pmI believe that town will give me the win if they mech out the last wolf. But I'm not actually confident that you're going to do this; see my point about the possibility of two wolves. This is what I'm concerned about and why I'm arguing/voting against no exe.

I understand the impasse.

However, I think the likelihood of there being two wolfs left with already five confirmed town and everyone having great points for being town is way lower than you duping us.

It could very well be the case that there is one mafia left and that all this arguing is moot as well tbh. And this "many ways to the goal" discussion isn't even needed. I wouldn't be too surprised.

But I don't know. I've said my piece and argued my logic.
I know where I stand and I leave it up to rest of town to decide.

I'm arguing for town though and you are arguing for 3p, as we both should.

Yeah the way I see it no exe never helps me and could potentially hurt me. So I'm never going to support no exe.

My posts have just been trying to give arguments why you should support an exe along with me.

Syn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:28 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:25 pm

Syn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:24 pm does the syndicate allow wolves to holster their kill

yes

lame

I think it's kinda cool as an overall rule, it can lead to some really neat predictions/mechanical outplays. In this case it makes things harder/murkier for you but overall I like that wolves can do stuff like holster their kill because they think one of their number is going to be protected by a doctor and they want to get the green check from the doctor.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:26 pm

Syn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:18 pm Alison has no incentive to protect anyone if we're going to refuse bargains. Critical flaw in your golden plan.

No, it's not. Why are you speaking for her?
Literally, if she's telling the truth, she is going to win. We'll make sure of it.

The only difference is that I put my own wincon above her. I feel that's my job.
I 100 % know my wincon. I do not 100 % know Alison's, even if she has great arguments why we should trust her.

I'm stretching far so that we can both win. I'm just making sure I put town's safety first. And we are actually in a position to do that WITHOUT jeopardizing Alison's win if she's telling the truth.

Like, I don't see the problem.

I believe that town will give me the win if they mech out the last wolf. But I'm not actually confident that you're going to do this; see my point about the possibility of two wolves. This is what I'm concerned about and why I'm arguing/voting against no exe.

Syn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:24 pm does the syndicate allow wolves to holster their kill

yes

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:21 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:21 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:43 pm please choose night actions for tutuu

I promise to campaign against your yeet especially hard if you do so

@Alison

WAII WHAAAAA WHYYYYY

He said already, he wants me to stick around and continue doctoring people.

Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:20 pm

Syn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:18 pm Alison has no incentive to protect anyone if we're going to refuse bargains. Critical flaw in your golden plan.

She does if she doesn’t want her bargainees to be nk by mafia

I'll probably continue protecting my bargainees regardless. My concern is that the game is harder than Dizzy makes it out to be, and you flip a scum and don't end the game - or don't flip a scum at all, and then suddenly everything is a mess and I am no longer guaranteed to win.

I am advocating for no exe, quite simply because it stops that from happening. You should be on board with this idea if you are concerned about the same things as me, because in a world where tomorrow is not a mech lock you do need the extra yeet to help resolve someone's role.

That's my case for no exe. I can't change what you - or more saliently, Michelle - decides, I'm just pointing out my POV and concerns.

I know I'm not the one making the nightkills. Your concern is understandable but there are a lot of things pointing to the fact that I'm not a hostile 3P (I could rehash them here if you want but I think you already know them). I was on board with your plan when it looked like it was a mech lock since I trust this player list to give me my win con if I townside and they out the last mafia. The problem is that I'm no longer confident your plan outs the last mafia because of the possibility of 2 mafia and yes, you yourself being mafia. I know you are adamant that you are towncleared and are annoyed by scumreads on you, but I have the same feeling when you point fingers at how I could be dangerous despite a plethora of other factors saying otherwise.

If the game is harder than just "no exe and wrap it up, game is mech locked" then I have to complete my win con ASAP or I risk throwing away the win. If there is 2 mafia it's not a mech lock. Nor is it a mech lock if you're mafia. I know you are confident it is a mech lock but I don't see the game the same way you do so I have to play around the possibility that the game drags on and my bargainees start dropping dead or people turn on me out of paranoia, which means I want to accomplish my win con as soon as possible. This has been my goal from the start. That's why I don't support a no exe now.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:28 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:38 pm I feel like the number of people who kill HK should be a pretty narrow margin right? am I wrong in thinking HK was widely town read? why kill HK over someone with a more threatening role that would be harder to yeet?

Yeah....

I don't think TSP could double protect either. LC would be the most logical kill IF you knew Alison couldn't double protect. Unless you are Alison or LC.

I intentionally did not bring up the fact that I could double protect until I had to because if it was public information the mafia would just shoot LC on the night I am not protecting him, and I don't want my bargainees to die. Nobody else noticed it and I am inclined to believe the mafia just overlooked it in the swamp of mech info.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:23 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:28 pm But also, Dizzy would still have to account for his roleblock the next day. So he would be outed if he used it to stop a doctor protecting people. And because I'd be told my attempts to offer a bargain failed, they'd know I was roleblocked and Dizzy was the one with the roleblock.

Not that it matter, but I don't know why you're invested in trying to make it how such and such could be scum when they are clearly town.

I'm invested because tutuu has offered to help me fulfil my win condition in exchange for a good faith effort at scumhunting to obtain a joint win. That at the very least implies that I should be checking the mechanics. My perspective is unbiased; I have every reason to keep you alive because you are my bargainee. As I mentioned, I have zero interest in flipping you today or tomorrow because you are my bargainee; my focus is on the possibility of Michelle being scum, because she is a non-bargainee.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:21 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:20 pmDizzy was publicly known to be a roleblocker. He had to roleblock someone. It doesn't matter anyway since Michelle's claim can be tested.

Only you knew I was roleblocker.

No, I openly said I'd offer you roleblocker and you accepted in the thread.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:21 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:43 pm please choose night actions for tutuu

I promise to campaign against your yeet especially hard if you do so

@Alison

ok

I could choose night actions for tutuu, yes.

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:16 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:02 pm

Michelle wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:56 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:47 pm What is the argument for no exeing? By my count it doesn't give town an extra exe whether there's 1 or 2 mafia members.

Tell me is any mechanically cleared without a bargain with you?

You are for all intents and purposes mechanically cleared, because we're going to vote you to check your claim and you're either going to die as an outed wolf or you'll be cleared at EOD.

JPIC is only scum if there's 2 wolves.

Hyena and Syn are uncleared.

Proving Michelle's ability doesn't clear her alignment-wise.

It pseudo-clears her alignment because if she was wolf with a poll changing ability she'd almost certainly have used it earlier.

Michelle wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:56 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:47 pm What is the argument for no exeing? By my count it doesn't give town an extra exe whether there's 1 or 2 mafia members.

Tell me is any mechanically cleared without a bargain with you?

You are for all intents and purposes mechanically cleared, because we're going to vote you to check your claim and you're either going to die as an outed wolf or you'll be cleared at EOD.

JPIC is only scum if there's 2 wolves.

Hyena and Syn are uncleared.

What is the argument for no exeing? By my count it doesn't give town an extra exe whether there's 1 or 2 mafia members.

Alternative theory is that HK was killed for being tracked nowhere in order to imply that tracked nowhere -> green check when mafia have 2 members or a ninja. I don't know how many people in this game would think that way if they were mafia but it's something I would consider I think.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:38 pm I feel like the number of people who kill HK should be a pretty narrow margin right? am I wrong in thinking HK was widely town read? why kill HK over someone with a more threatening role that would be harder to yeet?

Most of the people that mafia would want to kill are hnder doctor aegis.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:26 pm michelle cant be the 1-shot night protector though (the role wilgy peeked)

because kyle would have saw it when he stole from michelle, and he didnt

so i dunno.

is it just syn?

or there is a team of 2 mafia members thats screwing up the authenticity of the mech

2 mafia members would ruin all the mech we have.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:27 pm

Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:25 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:20 pm

Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:18 pm Dizzy very likely town from my PoV due to the roleblock and tightening the PoE

Dizzy was publicly known to be a roleblocker. He had to roleblock someone. It doesn't matter anyway since Michelle's claim can be tested.

Wouldn't it have made more sense if dizzy roleblocked you and killed LC?

he gets redirected and roleblocks himself i think? i dunno (if that, or if he would have gotten redirected to the previous bargainee - the dead made)

I chose to redirect votes for dizzy, not actions.

But also, Dizzy would still have to account for his roleblock the next day. So he would be outed if he used it to stop a doctor protecting people. And because I'd be told my attempts to offer a bargain failed, they'd know I was roleblocked and Dizzy was the one with the roleblock.

Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:25 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:20 pm

Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:18 pm Dizzy very likely town from my PoV due to the roleblock and tightening the PoE

Dizzy was publicly known to be a roleblocker. He had to roleblock someone. It doesn't matter anyway since Michelle's claim can be tested.

Wouldn't it have made more sense if dizzy roleblocked you and killed LC?

I can't double target; I was on dizzy last night not LC.

If there is no more use for Michelle's claimed power than it's always optimal to vote her and let her redirect the exe to whoever we agree upon.