The Syndicate

Quin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:16 pm if i wanna host a game where i trash talk the losing faction the entire game that's my right, damnit!

I agree with u there, this is compulsory

Despite the title of the thread this isnt about setting a standard that hosts should adhere to

Its literally only about convenience and clarity

By default - the thing written in the guideline applies unless the host says otherwise

The host can do whatever they want and can run any type of games as long as they communicate the difference, as opposed to them expecting that the players will know (its mostly a result of different mafia cultures assuming different things)

And also like, some hosts just dont remember to clarify on how they like to run things - then players play assuming X, but when the time comes the host is used to Y being the default, then the player feels robbed etc. So this is useful to settle disputes / let players know how to play in advance

I disagree with talking about ongoing games - potentially damaging the integrity of one or two games is worse than losing the advantage of talking about said ongoing games to your advantage game-wise

And (if u have the time) - some definitions on angleshooting altho thats lengthy i know

Also for double targetting legal for default except for protectives - i would add disruptives too. Jailkeepers and roleblockers by default shouldnt get to double target imo

And nvm on the mafia NK double targetting - its already encompassed in "double targetting default legal"

Great stuff!

I recommend (if u have the time) to clarify on version of jailkeeper (roleblock + doctor vs. prevents all actions targetting that player as well) (maybe)

and on giving night result feedback (i think a VT getting roleblocked wouldnt get informed but some people like it to be informed). So basically "does a role that normally doesnt get feedback - what happens when they get roleblocked". And also maybe parity cop getting roleblocked on n1 - what message do they get, is it any different than normal, altho thats maybe too specific and unnecessary\

Maybe X-shot roles getting roleblocked do they get refunded? altho also ptobbaly needlessly specific

Also mafia NK mandatory or not (just in case the host doesnt clarify). And does double targetting apply to mafia NK (i think this was an old syndicate rule)

great stuff

@JaggedJimmyJay pls

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:01 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:58 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:55 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:48 pm the definition of poker angleshooting is not the same as the mafia definition of angleshooting, the way most people use it. most people believe that angleshooting is against the rules, they use the phrase in that way (in mafia)

The way mafia players use "angle shooting" is however they want without regard to what it actually means. It's a specific thing, and if you want to call me a Prescriptivist, I don't care. Angle shooting is a very specific thing that the Mafia community didn't make up. If you can't define it, then you can't solve it. If you want to call whatever you want angle shooting and disrespect the poker community, then I'll accuse you of cultural appropriation.

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:48 pm i do not believe martin's game is the only game that had integrity issues

off top of my memory:

radiohead by sloonei - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host gave compensation to the mafia team
simpsons by sloonei - a person violated the "dont claim your identity" rule and the host had to warn that he would start modkilling for it
escape from russia by g-man - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host had to warn them and was considering modkilling them
philosophers mafia by tony - he had to modkill two people, one for violating an infodumping rule, another for going over the post count out of frustration
lion king by dunya - she had to modkill a person who contacted another person by discord and talked to them about the game

Pretend you were the host in each of these. What would you have done differently?

im listing these games that have had integrity issues in response to your claim that the syndicate has no problem with integrity in its games

I don't know what you want me to do with that information. I have been more or less retired as a player during this time. I swapped in in The Simpsons. You're not explaining what the integrity issues were in the games. Were they not resolved fairly or correctly?

i am arguing that those issues wouldn't have popped up in the first place if there was a standard set of rules that clearly defines what's ok and what's not ok

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:59 pm What rules do you specifically want to see? would be the pertinent question.

the ones i listed in the OP. every time you read angleshooting in them, pretend that it says muffins instead.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:55 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:48 pm the definition of poker angleshooting is not the same as the mafia definition of angleshooting, the way most people use it. most people believe that angleshooting is against the rules, they use the phrase in that way (in mafia)

The way mafia players use "angle shooting" is however they want without regard to what it actually means. It's a specific thing, and if you want to call me a Prescriptivist, I don't care. Angle shooting is a very specific thing that the Mafia community didn't make up. If you can't define it, then you can't solve it. If you want to call whatever you want angle shooting and disrespect the poker community, then I'll accuse you of cultural appropriation.

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:48 pm i do not believe martin's game is the only game that had integrity issues

off top of my memory:

radiohead by sloonei - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host gave compensation to the mafia team
simpsons by sloonei - a person violated the "dont claim your identity" rule and the host had to warn that he would start modkilling for it
escape from russia by g-man - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host had to warn them and was considering modkilling them
philosophers mafia by tony - he had to modkill two people, one for violating an infodumping rule, another for going over the post count out of frustration
lion king by dunya - she had to modkill a person who contacted another person by discord and talked to them about the game

Pretend you were the host in each of these. What would you have done differently?

im listing these games that have had integrity issues in response to your claim that the syndicate has no problem with integrity in its games

the definition of poker angleshooting is not the same as the mafia definition of angleshooting, the way most people use it. most people believe that angleshooting is against the rules, they use the phrase in that way (in mafia)

i do not believe martin's game is the only game that had integrity issues

off top of my memory:

radiohead by sloonei - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host gave compensation to the mafia team
simpsons by sloonei - a person violated the "dont claim your identity" rule and the host had to warn that he would start modkilling for it
escape from russia by g-man - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host had to warn them and was considering modkilling them
philosophers mafia by tony - he had to modkill two people, one for violating an infodumping rule, another for going over the post count out of frustration
lion king by dunya - she had to modkill a person who contacted another person by discord and talked to them about the game

@Epignosis here are the last 5 games in the Racket:

1) Making Friends and Enemies

game thread: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 276&t=1967

there are no written rules provided by the host

2) Grasslands

game thread: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 276&t=1958

there are no written rules provided by the host

in this game the host scolded me because i publicly complained about the setup itt and i suggested we change the rules of the setup on the spot. he found it to be angleshooty. how could i have known?

3) Avatar the last airbender

game thread: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 276&t=1938

"Please avoid excessive AtE (appeals to emotion), defined as anything that directly states, implies, or suggests that your real life and/or friendship is being negatively effected by the game. If you feel that your real life is being negatively effected by the game, please contact a mod or site admin." - is the only written rule

4) the 7th saga

game thread: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 77#p667077

the game thread has a bunch of rules, but there is not a single thing that mentions: "angleshooting, OGI, talking about ongoing games, anything of the sort"

the host in this game talked to me when i screenshoted part of my DMs with another player in this game and he told me that i shouldnt have done that. how could i have known that he doesnt like that?

what if i decided to talk about an ongoing game? who could have stopped me, its not written in jay's rules, it's not really written in the syndicate standard rules (since those dont exist) - so technically would it be allowed? technically i could have also talked stuff like "this person is actively typing in the syndicate discord but he's not being ITT, so they're clearly avoiding it" - nothin would have stopped me, is that rly okay?

5) philosophers mafia

game thread: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 276&t=1926

a lot of rules which is nice, its solid, but still:

"If you try anything angleshooty, I will warn you once. Then I will modkill you. Don't try to break the game." - doesnt rly elaborate on what tony defines as angleshooty at all

i could go on, @Epignosis, but im pretty sure that hosts do not, in fact, write sufficient rules at all in their game threads

and i believe that it is absurd to expect them to lay out all the rules themselves

it is not something a person can come up with overnight, it would be very tedious and annoying for 1 person, a lot of hosts already (from my perspective) run their games based off of the assumption that there is some kind of sitewide standard that defines "angleshooting" so that's why they don't elaborate on it

but there is none

(and pls dont argue that this sample size is small, i skimmed over other threads and all hosts basically copy paste their same own rules)

i think that, one thing we can all agree that is angleshooting and wrong, at the minimum, is if a moderator or an administrator were to use their powers to check hidden accounts, and see who is lurking in the thread and not posting, and then post about it ITT, revealing those lurkers publicly

In all 5 of these games that I've linked, if we're going to be anal about the rules, it does not prohibit such behavior from the administators, because it does not define it. Nobody has put up a definition of angleshooting

Therefore, the logical step is for the community to come together with multiple definitions that can catch and prevent the majority of dirtyness in mafia games

If you do not have rules you are going to have chaos

Okay give me a sec

@Epignosis alright, thanks for clearing it up

I completely agree that hosts should be clear, straightforward, and unambiguous in defining their rules.

So how about, for quality of life, for the sake of convenience, have some sitewide list of rules (doesnt need to be the same ones i wrote in the OP, but something of this nature) that the majority of syndicate players agree are good rules, and have them be something as default, something to lean back on in case hosts are lazy / new to mafia.

I have played mafia here for half a year and the majority of games have barely anything written in them about the rules

So, like, i cant just PM every host and ask them "hey dude, could u please make ur rules more specific and detailed?"

Like, (from my understaning of what sloonei said), he is not opposed to some guidelines being written in a hosting thread that ppl need to look up themselves

But whats the problem with respectfully stuffing those gudelines in peoples faces, both hosts and players?

Like instead of blaming it on the host if theres a loophole in their rules, is it not strictly better to have a safety net of standard set of rules?

I believe that the combination of

"We want to leave things to the host's discretion"

And

"The host needs to specify more stuff than simply "No angleshooting allowed". It falls on them to make it clear"

is a very unpleasant one.

You are basically asking the hosts to write a whole ruleset for themselves every game, or am I misunderstanding your posts?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:35 pm We are discussing this.

@Sloonei also, i didnt include anything about forbidden infodumping and roleclaiming since its not something i would ever put in my games, however, it is something a lot of old school syndicators seem to love. so i think clarifications and rules on that should also be written, with specific quotes that set the boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable hinting / infodumping

for instance, in my eyes, an ideal ruleset would have something like this:

lets say you're a cop and have a red peek but you're forbidden from info dumping

"I think X is scum. Trust me guys and vote him" - this is acceptable

"I think X is scum. Trust me guys and vote him. I can't speak for the reason" - this is unacceptable in my mind, it clearly hints at mech info, assuming its publicly stated that info dumping is disallowed

"I think X is scum for raisins" - this, in my mind, is debatable. 50/50. i think arguments can be made on both ends on whether or not this post violates a no infodumping rule

something like that. have some specific example posts to show the desired result of "infodumping forbidden" in the sitewide ruleset, and then urge hosts additionaly on top of that to make their own specific example posts in their sign-up theads and their OPs so that its as clear as possible. since this thing is very subjective i think there needs to be a lot of clarity or else it just doesnt work and host intervention becomes necessary (for example, your own two games sloonei, simpsons and radiohead)

Suggestion for sitewide standard definition of what's angleshooting, OGI, punishment, compensation, etc

Open-ended community discussion. I propose a sitewide standard set of rules that should be applied to all games by default. These rules ought to be linked by every host in their game, both in the sign-up thread and in the OP of the thread. Hosts should have the right to remove/add/change any of these rules, but they need to be explicit and specific.

Please, give your thoughts, suggestions, concerns, etc:

Here are my suggestions:

"Angleshooting" is the act of doing something unsportsmanlike. An angleshot/dirty/OGI read or speculation is something that you have acquired outside from the in-game mafia thread from all the players, in the way the game is supposed to be played, but in another way, outside from the game thread and/or from the host.

1. You should not mention that you have angleshooty/OGI reads. You should never mention the word "angleshoot" in a post period. If you attain one, make up another reason to justify the read or speculation, something that's tied to in-game stuff that other people can engage with. If you claim that "I have a dirty read on X and I can't say why" - nobody can engage with this, and I don't believe it's fair. Or rather, it's inconvenient for scum players to have to start saying they have dirty reads from time to time in their repertoaire in order to balance things out. It takes away from the Mafia experience imo if a balanced metagame would be when both factions end up saying they have inexplainable dirty reads from tiem to time. And the mafia can't naturally attain dirty angleshoot reads since they already have TMI. So I think the better variant of balanced metagame is if nobody can talk about it. Do not respond to other people mentioning anything regarding angleshooting, because things can have a domino effect. Just alert the mod and pretend the post doesn't exist

2. Hosts should not respond to people's posts in the thread. Some hosts can be unintentionally biased to respond to setup related questions to members of the town who genuinely dont understand the setup, but if a member of the mafia tries to fake a derp clear or something, or feign ignorance about setup related thing, the host might be biased because they know that person is feigning the ignorance and forget to respond to it. The host, if they wish to interact with the players in their game, needs to constantly remind themselves that they shouldn't have TMI. I think slip-ups can happen as a result of this, so I don't believe hosts should ever directly respond to posts. If they wish to answer or say anything they should publicly say, without quoting any posts:

"Question: bla bla bla"
"Answer: bla bla bla"

And remind people not to interact with the post.

3. The players should not interact with the host ITT in any way. They should not ping them with questions, they should ask privately. The reasoning is that discord is widely used for mafia chats, and a lot of people, i think, find it more convenient to type out a quick question there in wolf chat where they might be spending a lot of time regardless, than to get on the forum and ping the host there. From the way host and player talk ITT it is also possible to generate angleshooty reads. So I believe player/host public communication should be banned.

4. Do not refer to mod communication. That's obvious, but:

5. When having to refer to mod communication because you have no other choice (for instance, you need to ask the host on clarification on your role): Do not say "I asked tutuu and she told me this and this and that". If you repeatedly casually mention the host and the way you talked to them and what you asked them your tone/your sentence structure can generate OGI reads. Do not say that you asked the host anything. But the biggest part is the timing of you saying this itt. Let's say a scum player dies, and their role PM flips something unexpected. If a player were to say "I just asked tutuu and she told me this and this and that about this scum flip" - then that player is angleshooting themselves as town imo, because mafia are likely to already know the information about this scum flip, and they wouldn't ask the host right now. So that player is town who is angleshooting themselves town, or if they're mafia, they're consciously trying to get themselves townread based off of people thinking that - oh hey, this person asked the host, it means they are town. This whole thing devolves from the Mafia experience, this isn't Mafia.
So instead, you should say "I was told that blah blah blah" - hosts giving clarifications themselves, regardless of whether or not prompted by a question seem more safe to me / I think there is less danger of dirty reads being generated.

6. Do not mention ongoing games, do not interact with them in any way shape or form. Even if you're dead in one, if that game is not completed, pretend that it does not exist.

i got tired of writing, i have more to say about compensation, modkills, etc. just this for now