The Syndicate

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:47 pm Oh. JPIC was the reason thread wasn't open on N1. And here I was hoping Cindy Kate had finally come to its senses. What if someone vanillarized JPIC or some similar action, making his whole role useless? Night was open and Tutu wasn't capped. Looks like he was out of function. Does that make things make more sense?

If that happened it MIGHT produce a "JPIC goes to Tutuu's but nothing happens" which would make it possible for Wilgy to be telling the truth about his track. It is also possible that if I were lying and off doing evil deeds he could be telling the truth about seeing one person (you) at Ted's. And if I am the evil 3P with this mysterious day power to disable JPIC that would solve all the mysteries.

I'm not, but for everyone else that's a workable theory. It calls for me to have done a number of wildly dumb things, but that's plausible in most people's view.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:26 pm Yeah, I mean, I get it. I guess the 3p thing is just speculation. I also saw Tim pissing off people, so I guess that is a thing lol. I don't mind either way. I'm honestly confused why Tim would choose to fake a roleblock action, when that is an action pretty easy to verify by the one you roleblock. Seems strange to make up, but what do I know. I only know my result.

I think there are a few reasons to doubt Wilgy as well. He said only one person visited Ted, which is wrong unless Tim is lying outright about both target and action. And I guess he saw JPIC target Tutu. Also a weird lie, if it's lie?

Things kind of don't stack up. But what are supposedly lies are weird and unnecessary lies to make? Does this make sense?

@Alison What do you think?

From my POV there are three really weird things.

1) I did use a roleblock on Ted. When I flip that will be obviously true. But you tracked Ted so my roleblock did not work. Also Wolgy only saw one person at Ted's. This can be explained by you and Wilgy lying, but you seem to really have no reason to do so regardless of alignment.

2) Wilgy tracked JPIC to Tutuu. JPIC's postcapper did not hit Tutuu. Sloonei has verified that getting vigged would NOT stop JPIC's action. This CAN be explained by Wilgy lying.

3) JPIC had a passive power to kill night chat as long as he was alive, and yet we had open night chat N2 and he was alive.

IMO when multiple really weird things are happening there is usually some common thread to them that explains them all. It's not "well a mysterious role blocker blocked Tim, and some mysterious power cancelled JPIC on the night chat, and yet another mysterious power immunized Tutuu.

Wilgy might have just lied, fine. That allows for JPIC to have just not visited Tutuu and it is okay for him only seeing one of us at Ted's...but it doesn't explain your track or JPIC's power failure.

I might have just lied (pro tip, I didn't) and that clears up everything at Ted's...you tracked, Wilgy only saw you, I was out doing evil deeds. But it doesn't connect to either of the other mysteries.

If Wilgy somehow flips green, and I have flipped green as I know I will, I genuinely can't explain any of these three things. So good luck with that.

tedxtr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:46 am @Timsup2nothin what’s the reason you lied about your action on me?

You mean the MD thing?

Because I associate roleblock as being usually a wolf PR, and I know a lot of other people who do as well. At the time I wanted to have it out there that I had visited you, but didn't want to invite what I knew then and know now is a mischop. Mischops are against town's wincon and at the time we only had one wolf down so couldn't really afford it. Day three we had three wolves down and clarity around actions seemed more important so I full revealed. I also thought I was obvious enough town not to cause any mischop fever, but apparently was wrong on that. Shit happens.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:44 am

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:00 pm BTW, I hope everyone is having fun, because I'm having a blast here. I do plan to mock you unmercifully in DVC, but then we're all friends and on to the next game as far as I'm concerned.

Serious question: Do you think it's unreasonable to suss you out when we have a claimed track result that conflicts with your claim of a roleblock? Cause I don't think that's unreasonable or a good reason to mock anyone. If you're town, then something really weird has happened night action wise. Which wouldn't really be funny ha ha. Do you believe my track claim?

I did for sure. That's why I asked Sloonei about whether your track would still register where he tried to go even if he was blocked. Now that Sloonei has clarified that I really have no idea what happened there. My only theories are that you lied about the track, which I see absolutely no reason for you to have done, Ted is somehow immune to my role block, or I got blocked before I could block. None of those seem really to make any sense. It's a pretty interesting puzzle, but obviously I'm not gonna live to solve it.

I'm still going yo mock people who choose to ignore Wilgy today. Wilgy's claim is incredible both days and obviously connects him to JPIC the wolf. I think the whole "okay gosh but maybe Tim's 3P so chop him anyway" is just smoke, and I think that's hilarious. Maybe I am and maybe I'm not 3P from other points of view...just like almost everyone else. Taking a random shot into the 3P pool when there's an obv wolf is kinda weak in my opinion, but ymmv. At any rate, I hope you guys figure out an explanation to this track thing after I flip.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:34 am Can you ask if X is saying the truth about Y song even if X has not actually claimed Y song?

I'm not fully understanding the point, but if you hold your horses on killing me...and hey maybe kill the wolf instead...you are welcome to have Poison try out her power on me. If all it is is a song lie detector I dunno what it gets you though. I told the truth about the song title (strangely enough) but I don't see what that proves unless we subscribe to the "only one bad guy per album" theory.

I mean, I like that theory myself, but ymmv,

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:37 am

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:24 am

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:20 am Tim is saying that JPIC had a useless role so he probably carried the kill to Hally.

Plus he was closest thing to outed. He always carries the kill there I think.

This is why, really, we should be killing Wilgy right away. Make the last wolf carry the kill while we have all this mech power out there.

This is silly, JPIC just targeted tutuu, unless kill tracking was somehow hidden from me.

Targeted Tutuu with what?

She didn't get post capped.

She didn't get killed.

You "tracked JPIC" to Tutuu, but nothing happened when he got there?

Now what?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:30 am

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:34 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:41 pm did anyone else roll mafia or just me?

I rolled rogue. No idea what that is tho.

leaving this here without further comment

Since Oddmerta has taken your "claim" as truth I wonder why he didn't believe Wilgy?

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:24 am The counter argument to that is that we know Hally was strongman killed, and it's not clear to me if the strongman modifier is an aspect of a mafia member's role (in which case only they can carry the kill) or a factional modifier that anyone who carries the kill can apply to themselves.

I think the strongman aspect comes out of compensation so was probably factional, if not a Hally specific penalty preventing her being protected. But that's speculative.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:20 am Tim is saying that JPIC had a useless role so he probably carried the kill to Hally.

Plus he was closest thing to outed. He always carries the kill there I think.

This is why, really, we should be killing Wilgy right away. Make the last wolf carry the kill while we have all this mech power out there.

Poison Chan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:19 am

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:00 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:56 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:49 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:48 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:47 pm

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:46 pm

Weird tracker.

I get different results depending on conditions that happen during the day

If I voted on a scum that flips I get a proper track (to which I used n2 on JPIC)

If I don't I get to be a watcher of a random target. N1 Ted was targeted by 1 person.

This role is real. Wilgy is town.

read or mech?

It's the most viable claim I've seen tbh. It could be that the mafia have a rolecop though and they know how to make good fake claims now.

I'm still not sure I buy it but mafia have struggled with coming up with decent role claims thus far (nutella kept changing her claim, sprityo just straight up refused to claim, JPIC came up with a totally nonsensical claim). So unless some role claiming wizard took over in the scum chat, having a believable looking role claim is to some extent a towntell. (It also clears some people from being scum because they'd have prepared better claims for their buddies, like nanook or you or even me, but all three of us are already clear unfortunately so we don't get any extra info.)

The counterargument to this is that even if Wilgy has a believable looking role claim, he still had bad interactions with nut and his claim of seeing JPIC hit tutuu doesn't add up since tutuu wasn't postcapped and the one role that could block something like that (juliets) holstered. it's also a bit too much power for town for me to buy tbh, since I think his role is actually quite strong.

another thing worth asking is why the hell jpic went out tonight. I find it hard to believe that JPIC witnessed the entire scum team being completely party wiped by Hally due to overusing their visits on you, and then went to himself "hm, I have a great idea! I'll visit another member of the towncore tonight who also made a billion psots so the ability doesn't even restrict them that hard!"

(of course, a lot of the stuff JPIC has done this game is not understandable to me so maybe that's just him being a bit unpredictable as usual)

I would lay money that JPIC went out...but he went to Hally's house.

wait, @Timsup2nothin so are you suggesting that the scum killed Hally as well went for Post Capping her at the same time? or are you saying that Hally was killed by the 3P?

JPIC was the obvious choice to carry the faction kill for the wolves. I'm pretty sure he just holstered on the post cap thing. He did NOT visit Tutuu.

I don't think Nanook is the 3P because his claim may be weak, but he was at Mac's house. It seems like all the damage to Mak has been accounted for in the wolf visitors, so what was Nanook doing if it isn't what he claims? Harmless 3P visitor doesn't seem realistic. 3P song spy collecting enough titles to lay waste the town seems feasible at a glance, but I would think that such a title collector would be looking for titles of people who aren't gonna be flipping any time soon since that reveals them anyway.

Maybe my claim to having been at Ted's for a roleblocjk is just cover for song peeking him and that's a very good reason to kill me. <shrug> When that doesn't work look for other people who are visiting in the middle class neighborhoods instead of the projects and the penthouses where people who are gonna be revealed anyway live.

Under the song collecting 3P peeper theory I think Ted is also cleared because I had already song revealed. But it's just a theory.

Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:04 am

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:34 amI'm also missing something around me, Ted, and Longcon. I can't see any reason for LongCon to lie about tracking Ted, so something happened with my role block that I can't figure out. I'm not strong enough on mech stuff yet I guess.

You got the wrong guy, friend... I didn't track anyone.

My bad...that should be Dizzy. Sorry, hard day.

"End game" is a term I'm not sure how to fit with in regards to the rogue. I think there is no danger of the game being built so the rogue can just blow everyone up N3 and laugh about winning...unless we did something song crazy. But I also don't think the rogue necessarily has to last all the way to what we think of as 'end game,' which for me is that state where a wrong move loses to the wolves and a right move wins for town. The 3P almost certainly has some shortcut to winning, but it isn't this short.

Gamestate is weird because I think the wolves are absolutely rekt, but the number of people who definitely are not the 3P is really small and I see very limited options for getting clears without flips. It's like, looking at the wolves I want to just say screw it and die because I don't think we can lose to them...but if I were handicapping the game I could not say good odds for town either.

I think we should strongly focus on protecting Juliet. Other than that I've really got nothing.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:26 am Mac, SPF and Oddmerta remain unclaimed. That's good, because I broadly trust all three of them. If the Rogue has some sort of role-based soup kill, then the identities of those 3 being hidden will save them (as well as other players who have only claimed part of their role, such as Samu or Poison-Chan, depending on how strict the requirements for the soup kill are). I am confident they can win the endgame there. I think this possibility is slightly remote, since like Mac said, these roles were not written to have names, but just in case it or something similar to it happens, we have our safety net to reocver.

If there is some sort of mass kill in play I really think it would be based in the song titles.

And I would not be the least bit surprised at that.

FWIW, based on how the game has been played the person who best fits "look town enough to not get chopped, but harmless enough to not get NKed" looks absolutely to me like Oddmerta. You don't know that I'm not a wolf, but the wolves do, so his perpetual tunnel makes him a clear non threat to the wolves. In your 3P hunting please consider that.

tutuu wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:11 am im 100% sure wilgy is mafia but i might vote tim just out of fear that he's the rogue and he can maybe soup kill all of us tonight and thats why he's fighting tooth and nail

sry tim i townread u way more than wilgy but just in case!

Not unreasonable in that I cannot think of any way to show I'm not 3P, or point to anyone else as more or less likely. I will say that I cannot see any game balance realities where the 3P can win this early, specifically because there is no way I can see to identify them. The game has a 'feel' of being much further along than it is because we have whacked three wolves in two days. But from a setup design standpoint a 3P that can do huge things on N3 is just going to win because the town and wolves cannot do anything that fast (without enormous KP which we have not seen.

I'm fighting because it is what I do. As town a mischop on me while Wilgy is basically outted wolf is against my wincon. Admittedly, as wolf or 3P getting chopped would be against my win con. In short, the fight is just me, NAI. What matters is that Wilgy is I think 99% outted wolf here.

It is possible, as badly as the wolves have been rekt, that starting to shoot for the 3P could be better for town than finishing off Wilgy I guess. I am worried about losing to the 3P...not on N3, but eventually. I don't think there's any particularly good reason to start this random 3P hunt with me, but like I said I guess it's as good as anywhere else. Frustrating that I almost feel like we have to get mech lucky to catch the 3P, but I am confident Sloonei wouldn't balance the game that way so I am missing something.

Anyway...

I'm also missing something around me, Ted, and Longcon. I can't see any reason for LongCon to lie about tracking Ted, so something happened with my role block that I can't figure out. I'm not strong enough on mech stuff yet I guess.

Mafia is hard sometimes.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:02 am

tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:57 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:50 pm i feel morally obligated to vote tim after he dropped that ATE. i hate ate so much

did you also not say you were feeling frustrated at getting scumread? i dont think its that unusual or outlandish to say the things you and tim said

i was frustrated, but i stopped myself from ATE'ing as much as possible. tim's ate felt overblown/performative to me, although im sure he's probably frustrated regardless of his alignment

I will do everything I can to derail an action that is against my wincon.

Oddmerta wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:35 pm I'm going to make tims pelt into an umbrella

You wind up wet.

Well that's a problem.

Either I myself got roleblocked N1 so I couldn't roleblock Ted, or Dizzy couldn't have tracked Ted visiting me.

Unless Ted is protected from roleblock somehow I guess.

A'ight, no way I'm gonna figure this out before y'all kill me, so not my problem. glgl

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:05 pm So we still don't know why Tutuu wasn't postcapped and Tim had nothing to say on the Ted discrepancy?

I know why Tutuu wasn't post capped...or at least the far and away only simple explanation.

JPIC just didn't visit Tutuu.

That's it.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:01 pm Lol Tim leaves and Wilgy shows up, you can't write this stuff

It is pretty funny.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:59 pm Okay so Dyslexicon and Tim are a difference check.

He's just histrionically wanting us to yeet Wilgy first.

I can't imagine that Tim does that because he's mafia trying to yeet town cuz he just gets turboed.

I can only imagine he's either town and Dizzy is lying or he's the 3p. Or further afield entirely, Wilgy and he are the last two and he's going to great lengths to distance. The latter not real credible because Wilgy isn't playing along.

What I don't get is why Tim isn't going off his rocker about Dizzy?

Sigh...I just can't help myself...came to check a PM, had to look at the game...

I'm not going off my rocker about Dizzy because I genuinely think it is more likely that Sloonei is interpreting role blocked as still left the house and got tracked than that Dizzy lied here. It seems simpler than trying to sort out why Dizzy would lie. It is certainly less painful than calling Dizzy a liar and then having to retract if Sloonei reveals that is how he is interpreting, and I already asked for him to reveal that.

I love to fight, but I'm not gonna fight Dizzy when I might have to eat it later.

I'm out. See ya an hour or so before EoD probably.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:35 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:33 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:31 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:09 am

tedxtr wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:36 am @dyachei if you saw me go to Nanook then quote this post and reply with "Yes, you're locked town or 3p, I should've trusted myself and not listen to the Mactriarchy"

italics aren't mandatory, it's just to piss Mac off because he's terrible at reading me.

@MacDougall

I tracked Ted to nanook

Also this.

You claim to have roleblocked Ted. Well two separate people tracked him and said he targeted Nanook. There is confirmation roleblocks stop movement. You claimed to have roleblocked Ted.

So you are in the exact same position as Wilgy except worse tbh.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that you are just trying to create as much distance between yourself and Wilgy as humanly possible.

I didn't role block him the night he targeted Nanook.

So what night did you role block him?

N1, when he targeted me. When Dizzy tracked him. Meaning that Wilgy's watcher claim that he only saw one person at Ted's house is just as much a lie as the claim that he tracked JPIC to Tutuu's house on N2.

Still wondering why I would be frustrated with you right now?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:31 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:09 am

tedxtr wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:36 am @dyachei if you saw me go to Nanook then quote this post and reply with "Yes, you're locked town or 3p, I should've trusted myself and not listen to the Mactriarchy"

italics aren't mandatory, it's just to piss Mac off because he's terrible at reading me.

@MacDougall

I tracked Ted to nanook

Also this.

You claim to have roleblocked Ted. Well two separate people tracked him and said he targeted Nanook. There is confirmation roleblocks stop movement. You claimed to have roleblocked Ted.

So you are in the exact same position as Wilgy except worse tbh.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that you are just trying to create as much distance between yourself and Wilgy as humanly possible.

I didn't role block him the night he targeted Nanook.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:29 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:26 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:24 pm Tim: You're just pushing me because of your ego. You can't handle me being right and you being wrong.

Does that summarise it? Because if so I have about 1500 words I can produce off the top of my head to prove that is also just bullshit.

Well, not a good summary since I'm right. You looked at Wilgy's claim and bought it. I blew it up. You have tried to make yourself right ever since.

I didn't look at Wilgy's claim and buy it tbh. What I buy is Dyslexicon and Tedxtr's claims. Which you are completely ignoring.

I already sought a resolution from Sloonie because I really don't believe Dizzy is lying, and I know I'm not. I'm not ignoring anything. I legitimately never do.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:26 pm I assure you that wasting one execute in a game where we're massively ahead loses less expected value than making strong players who are confirmed town not want to play the game any more.

Like the guy who spiked Wilgy for you that you are antagonizing with an ill founded chop you mean?

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:22 pm So if your defense is waiting on an answer by Sloonei... why would you care that we're voting you now? Sloonei's going to come in any moment now and say "hey, actually trackers see the intentions of the players they track, even if those players are roleblocked". And then we'll all be like "oh, I see, that explains it" and vote Wilgy. Then obviously it won't matter that we're voting you in the meantime. And if Sloonei doesn't say that, then you surely must agree that we have no reason to treat you with any more trust than we treat Wilgy.

So either way, if your defense is predicated on the night action resolution details that we are waiting on Sloonei for, then surely you have no reason to be upset at us for voting you at this point in time.

I'm not upset at you. I'm making fun of you. That's a vastly different thing. But it seems to have reached a point where it might be genuinely hurting you, so yes i really want to stop. Please don't ask me any more questions, eh?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:24 pm Tim: You're just pushing me because of your ego. You can't handle me being right and you being wrong.

Does that summarise it? Because if so I have about 1500 words I can produce off the top of my head to prove that is also just bullshit.

Well, not a good summary since I'm right. You looked at Wilgy's claim and bought it. I blew it up. You have tried to make yourself right ever since.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:19 pm Also I'm going to point out that at this point three players who are confirmed town (Mac, juliets, and SPF) have said to some degree that they're being made uncomfortable by the way you are posting Tim. Let's rule out Mac because he's the person you're trying to prove is wrong. Completely unrelated third parties who have no stake in the matter like juliets and SPF are not only made uncomfortable and dissuaded from posting in the thread, but are actively convinced you are scum (in the case of SPF) because of the way you have been posting.

I'm liable to tack on "improves thread health" to the list of reasons why we should exe you. And if you are town, then you should realize this is the case and stop.

LOL..tack on all the reasons you want for following through and refusing to reassess a wrong read.

But, as I have said repeatedly, since you have made it clear that you are never under any circumstances going to reassess, I will accept your request and go get some work done.

Here's a tip though: getting yourself appointed leader and then blatantly refusing to reassess an obviously wrong decision is "bad for thread health."

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:17 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:14 am

Oddmerta wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:12 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:11 am

Oddmerta wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:00 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:51 am

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:40 pm Mac claims to be a master of "first post reads." His first post is crafted specifically to meet his own first post townie standards and therefore is probably just NAI.

Tim is lock town because he said "claims" instead of "is". Not pandering to me when he very easily could = lock town. Tim, you have been elevated. You are now Simeon, the Incredible Talking Half Banana Half Orangutan. Your job is to try not to get night killed or misyeeted while I townshield you and drag you to endgame somehow.

Are you sure you locktown this guy? Might be a bit early for that

Why not?

Because I'm scumreading him pretty hard

why tho

My first real play relevant to Tim was to townread him and then shield him from Oddmerta. So I don't see how the accusation that I want to be right about him being mafia stacks up at all. It's just bullshit honestly.

Note that I didn't claim that.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:14 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:12 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:09 pm i prescribe to the rule of thumb that not everyone who ATEs is mafia, but that all mafia ATE

tim being performatively angry & outraged about being killed while simultaneously making comments about how he's excited to die so that he can rub it in our faces does nothing but make me think he's scum/3p that's relying on overly emotional language in a last-ditch effort to get people to townread him. if he wants to make the logical case for why he's town, then i'll listen, but all he's doing right now is making me want to dig in my heels and stop reading his posts. i do not care about emotional appeals or ego-battles

I don't have a logical case for how I'm not the 3P.

Do you? Does anyone?

However, I have made the logical case for how Wilgy is a wolf and I am not. If you missed it the first twenty times, tough luck for both of us I guess.

in my eyes you've given a logical case for why wilgy is a wolf while failing to acknowledge how there are similar discrepancies in your own claim

Well, no. I have acknowledged there are problems with my claim as compared to Dizzy's. I have speculated about that, just like I speculated that maybe JPIC getting vigged meant that I could have been wrong about Wilgy. I have asked Sloonei for clarification on tracker result resolutions that may explain the inconsistency because I want to KNOW. I haven't gotten that answer yet, but in regards to my concern that I could have been wrong about Wilgy lying the answer was posted in the thread. The vig doesn't stop the action...if JPIC had targeted Tutuu she would be postcapped. Wilgy just lied.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:12 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:09 pm i prescribe to the rule of thumb that not everyone who ATEs is mafia, but that all mafia ATE

tim being performatively angry & outraged about being killed while simultaneously making comments about how he's excited to die so that he can rub it in our faces does nothing but make me think he's scum/3p that's relying on overly emotional language in a last-ditch effort to get people to townread him. if he wants to make the logical case for why he's town, then i'll listen, but all he's doing right now is making me want to dig in my heels and stop reading his posts. i do not care about emotional appeals or ego-battles

personally my rule of thumb is that I've never been swayed by AtE when I have someone on the chopping block and I don't intend to start

Never swayed by inconvenient facts like Wilgy having been caught in a lie either apparently.

juliets wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:11 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:08 pm @Oddmerta

Add to my legacy that I think voting me over Wilgy is just plain silly. You have an excuse of sorts because you have been tunneling right along off your day zero nonsense read so while silly it's at least consistent. Lots of people are gonna try to defend their silliness with "I only did what Alison said." Make the point that while that excuses the silliness it is laziness.

Tim, give the rest of us some credit. I would never, ever say "I only did what Alison said" or anything like that. I'm going to make my own decision though I will consider what Alison and others like dya, spf, Mac, etc. have to say. Please do not insult us.

Cool.

So, Wilgy lied about both parts of his claim. I laid the case out clearly. Easy to find in my ISO, it's the only wall post. Good luck.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:09 pm i prescribe to the rule of thumb that not everyone who ATEs is mafia, but that all mafia ATE

tim being performatively angry & outraged about being killed while simultaneously making comments about how he's excited to die so that he can rub it in our faces does nothing but make me think he's scum/3p that's relying on overly emotional language in a last-ditch effort to get people to townread him. if he wants to make the logical case for why he's town, then i'll listen, but all he's doing right now is making me want to dig in my heels and stop reading his posts. i do not care about emotional appeals or ego-battles

I don't have a logical case for how I'm not the 3P.

Do you? Does anyone?

However, I have made the logical case for how Wilgy is a wolf and I am not. If you missed it the first twenty times, tough luck for both of us I guess.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:08 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:57 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:53 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:44 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:42 pm I have give you about 10 chances to explain why your own actions are lesser than Wilgy's but all you seem to want to do is harp on the same line about Wilgy being outed scum. I am going to exe you to guard against the possibility of you being 3P since I have heard no defense from you to that respect.

Like FMPOV, okay, let's say I buy this stuff about Wilgy being outed scum. You're outed scum too because you lied about Ted. So I exe the outed scum with the higher equity for being 3P with a bomb to drop on the town at night first.

It's a simple decision for me. You can berate me and tell me I am making this decision because of my ego, but that simply isn't true. I'm making this decision because I think it's the best decision for town, that's all.

From my perspective the notion that you are making this decision because of your ergo is preposterous Alison. You were fighting with me about Wilgy being scummier last night and reevaluated constantly in this game. So have I. Neither of us can be accused of any kind of ego driven agenda here tbh it's just Tim flailing.

Tim if this is actually how you treat locktowns when you are town then consider reevaluating your strategies.

Ah but how sweet it will be when the facts come out. You are trying to chop the guy who caught Wilgy in a lie for you. I have suggested some unflattering motives for why you are doing that. At some point it becomes obvious that in fact that is what you did. And then you will say "well, Tim's just a bad player and made us do it." But will that really satisfy?

So be clear, what are you suggesting that my unflattering motive for voting you is exactly? Like just spit it out succinctly so everyone can read it.

It's ego man, pure and simple. I diss your reads, it bruises your ego, you go blind to facts and start conf biasing into "look at this post" reads to excuse chopping me.

[mention]Oddmerta[/mention]

Add to my legacy that I think voting me over Wilgy is just plain silly. You have an excuse of sorts because you have been tunneling right along off your day zero nonsense read so while silly it's at least consistent. Lots of people are gonna try to defend their silliness with "I only did what Alison said." Make the point that while that excuses the silliness it is laziness.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:01 pm also can we not have any historical revisionism about the wilgy lie thing

you did not "catch wilgy in a lie"

he claimed it first thing in the day, and then we asked tutuu if she was blocked and she said no, and then we were all like "uh, that's weird".

Sure. Oh, wait, I doubt anyone reading would say that Wilgy was on the chair before I put him there.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:00 pm when a townie is this angry and upset that they are being wrongfully tunneled, and convinced that they will receive sweet vindication in the dead chat where they get to mock all the people who were wrong about them, their usual response is to almost beg for death, because it gives them the vindication they crave; it makes their fantasies about everyone else weeping for ever suspecting them and apologizing tearfully to them come true.

this is doubly true if that death confirms the identity of a wolf.

I'm not seeing any "please kill me now" attitude from tim. He says it with his lips that he wants to die and mock us in DVC, but he clearly wants to be let off the hook for today.

Why would I want to rush? The facts will out. I'm not a treestump.

But letting you waste a chop when there is an outed wolf is against my win condition and I NEVER throw.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:53 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:44 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:42 pm I have give you about 10 chances to explain why your own actions are lesser than Wilgy's but all you seem to want to do is harp on the same line about Wilgy being outed scum. I am going to exe you to guard against the possibility of you being 3P since I have heard no defense from you to that respect.

Like FMPOV, okay, let's say I buy this stuff about Wilgy being outed scum. You're outed scum too because you lied about Ted. So I exe the outed scum with the higher equity for being 3P with a bomb to drop on the town at night first.

It's a simple decision for me. You can berate me and tell me I am making this decision because of my ego, but that simply isn't true. I'm making this decision because I think it's the best decision for town, that's all.

From my perspective the notion that you are making this decision because of your ergo is preposterous Alison. You were fighting with me about Wilgy being scummier last night and reevaluated constantly in this game. So have I. Neither of us can be accused of any kind of ego driven agenda here tbh it's just Tim flailing.

Tim if this is actually how you treat locktowns when you are town then consider reevaluating your strategies.

Telling you that you are wrong when you are seems a good strat, even if you are mech locked as town by the host himself.

BTW, I hope everyone is having fun, because I'm having a blast here. I do plan to mock you unmercifully in DVC, but then we're all friends and on to the next game as far as I'm concerned.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:53 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:44 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:42 pm I have give you about 10 chances to explain why your own actions are lesser than Wilgy's but all you seem to want to do is harp on the same line about Wilgy being outed scum. I am going to exe you to guard against the possibility of you being 3P since I have heard no defense from you to that respect.

Like FMPOV, okay, let's say I buy this stuff about Wilgy being outed scum. You're outed scum too because you lied about Ted. So I exe the outed scum with the higher equity for being 3P with a bomb to drop on the town at night first.

It's a simple decision for me. You can berate me and tell me I am making this decision because of my ego, but that simply isn't true. I'm making this decision because I think it's the best decision for town, that's all.

From my perspective the notion that you are making this decision because of your ergo is preposterous Alison. You were fighting with me about Wilgy being scummier last night and reevaluated constantly in this game. So have I. Neither of us can be accused of any kind of ego driven agenda here tbh it's just Tim flailing.

Tim if this is actually how you treat locktowns when you are town then consider reevaluating your strategies.

Ah but how sweet it will be when the facts come out. You are trying to chop the guy who caught Wilgy in a lie for you. I have suggested some unflattering motives for why you are doing that. At some point it becomes obvious that in fact that is what you did. And then you will say "well, Tim's just a bad player and made us do it." But will that really satisfy?

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:52 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:51 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:45 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:41 pm so many egos at play here

I think playing egoistically is generally playing suboptimally and try to make decisions that are fuelled by calculation rather than ego. I think I've done so here. I can't speak for any of the others.

Or by speculation rather than fact.

The speculation was "well, Tim might be a lying wolf". The FACT is that Wilgy is caught outright in a lie.

Now the speculation is "Tim might be 3P". The FACT is still that Wolgy is caught outright in a lie.

If you are "calculating" that it is a good time to start acting on speculations rather than facts, knock yourself out. But acknowledge what you are doing. Don't lie to yourself.

to be clear, I believe that you have been caught outright in a lie

You mean the tracker role blocker thing that you are assuming works a certain way and I already asked Sloonei about how it works?

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:50 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:50 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:48 pm wait, how did you get that info tim?

His claimed role scales based on the % of civillians in the game. Based on the ability he received, civillians must be 80% or above.

But they were 79% or below yesterday, which means that there can't be 1 wolf. So 2 wolves and a Rogue is what fits the numbers.

This is correct. Maybe it would be wise to flip me so you can look at my role yourself and verify how many wolves you are looking for, rather than flip Wolgy.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:45 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:41 pm so many egos at play here

I think playing egoistically is generally playing suboptimally and try to make decisions that are fuelled by calculation rather than ego. I think I've done so here. I can't speak for any of the others.

Or by speculation rather than fact.

The speculation was "well, Tim might be a lying wolf". The FACT is that Wilgy is caught outright in a lie.

Now the speculation is "Tim might be 3P". The FACT is still that Wolgy is caught outright in a lie.

If you are "calculating" that it is a good time to start acting on speculations rather than facts, knock yourself out. But acknowledge what you are doing. Don't lie to yourself.

dyachei wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:45 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:42 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:41 pm so many egos at play here

Mine's bigger.

you all have the biggest penis, ok? no one cares

do we think 1 or 2 wolves?

if 2 who else besides wilgy or tim?

I feel like we should be thinking about that

We actually know there are two wolves, unless I lied.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:42 pm I have give you about 10 chances to explain why your own actions are lesser than Wilgy's but all you seem to want to do is harp on the same line about Wilgy being outed scum. I am going to exe you to guard against the possibility of you being 3P since I have heard no defense from you to that respect.

There is no defense to that aspect, and if you want to leave the outted wolf and start randomly popping for 3P more power to you.

But consider that there is no evidence that you aren't the 3P either. Or Mac. Or Oddmerta who is my personal favorite based on the way he has played his way into "towny enough for the towncore but certainly not solvy enough to risk an NK" territory. You wanna start popping random caps trying to hit 3P, cool, so long as you admitthat's your priority here.

dyachei wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:41 pm so many egos at play here

Mine's bigger.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:36 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:30 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:23 pm I didn't speak out hard enough against AtE and the "yelling at people who accuse you" defense earlier in the game and now tim is incentivized to use it as much as possible to stay alive

Pointing out the absurdity of your intentions isn't 'appealing' to your emotions, it's trolling. The way you just dig in your heels when you are caught being outright wrong is hilarious.

Wilgy lied. There is no realistic alternative to that fact. All I've done is stridently make that fact the main point here. You cannot effectively refute that fact. You know that fact really calls for chopping Wilgy. But you are so upset that you want to make a (not really since we are so far ahead) game throwing move and chop me anyway. That's okay, I always piss off town cores when I'm right and they are wrong. On many levels that's what I play the game for.

all I want to hear is one point, and one point only. i don't want to hear anything else.

you argue that wilgy lied. then, you argue that i should exe wilgy because he lied.

I also think you lied. under your logic, why not exe you too?

LOL..because IDGAF what you think. Wilgy DEMONSTRABLY lied. The only way he wasn't outright caught lying was if the vig shot cancelled JPICs night action which is why I asked the host...because I personally hate being wrong. Once Sloonei clarified that the only way Wilgy could be telling the truth was off the table...you decided to chop me instead. And since you are the leader you probably can. So I will be able to mock you for it. I'm just giving you a foreshadowing.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:33 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:32 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:27 pm So basically the plan is we yeet Wilgy because Tim knows Wilgy is lying and going to flip mafia, and then we yeet Tim because he's outed third party.

Well, I'm not 3P either but at least you are making sense here. Chop the outed wolf, and since there's really no evidence that I am NOT the 3P, start shooting at random. I don't have any better way to suggest hunting for the 3P.

I think it's pretty evident that you are the 3p based on how much you give a shit about your survival.

I already told you I just want outted wolf chopped rather than a chop wasted on me. I woke up expecting to check in, see that the chop on the outted wolf was proceeding fine, and say "I'm gonna get some work done, see y'all at EoD." Apparently greater adult supervision was required to get the chop of the outted wolf back on track. But it needed to be done and I really don't have all day, so here we are.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:26 pm

Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:23 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:20 pm You seem agitated. Maybe you should have a cup of tea.

I'm sitting at a keyboard man, this isn't life or death so I don't get really that excited. I'm having fun.

You should still consider a cup of tea, tea is very good.

I'm actually drinking a 7up and lemonade mixture.