The Syndicate

Syn wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:10 pm this was painful to watch while having the inside scoop on my slot

you did great, seanzie

You did well as well! I was really happy that you hardclaimed, given what happened beforehand, this makes total sense, and IMO definitely was best-play.

Also thanks JJJ, I am super happy I was able to participate in this game. I never played Fallout 2, but I played Fallout 1 when I was way too young, and it definitely was a defining game for me, and I want to play Fallout 2 now (I've played 1, 3, NV and 4), and I feel like you really did a great job of encapsulating the spirit of Fallout in a mafia game. I wanted to sign up like normal, but when the game started I think I was already overwhelmed, so I was kind of ecstatic to get the rep-in message!

Amazing game, and I do appreciate your attention to balance.

Are there yearly awards on this site? If there is a player flavor award, I'd like to nominate @Epignosis for the flavor award based on this game.

KZA wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:11 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:54 pm always kill alison there smh

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:54 pm it's mechanically correct

Care to elaborate?

It doesn't feel mechanically correct to chop someone who 100% isn't Mafia

Agreed. Hardclaim it was not mechanically correct to yeet Alison there. The only reason to think it might be correct is if you thought Alison had a shot left, but especially after her not shooting the night after she was outed, that possibility diminishes a lot.

She wasn't going to heavily wolf-side, because that would get her yeeted. She also wasn't going to town-side, but that wasn't the point... She was literally TRUE independent at the point she was outed, and independents need to be watched, but are never as good of a yeet choice as a wolf, and if they are full-outed, often aren't as good of a yeet choice as consensus PoE since you gain no info from their flip.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:13 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:04 pm oh my god

Gods, I saw your Fresh Prince post, and I wish so much that that I made a point to be ready for this, so I'd have had time to react. I didn't think to like set an alarm or anything to get back to the thread for EoD, but I realized it was like 2 minutes before, and went in, saw you post, and I feel so damn stupid, because I wish so much I would have been sitting there waiting to see it, if I would have been a little more dedicated that day, I would have countered you...

But, alas, your play worked, and so good job. I am so pissed that I let "it isn't EoD" or whatever it was, your excuse for not having a vote on LC, slide. Good job.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:43 pm I felt like Chop should have been turbo'd earlier but it wasn't my business since I was 3P so I didn't say anything and just went along with the flow. I was kinda confused why town exed me there instead of going after the mafia though.

I tried to save you

Urist wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:25 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:14 pm Actually, I think I know why.

Urist seemed pretty much over the game.
Sean was busy (I recall you saying as much).
TSP was the highest posting scum player in Syndicate history.

I did more work than I let on in the thread.
I just... couldn't get over the KZA kill when Poison was calling TSP lock scum for 3 days. She killed KZA and then stopped posting. Who does that? I figured she softed the vig claim and then left when she was locked into claiming a kill on KZA.

Yeah, that's fair. I did read Poison's ISO, and the whole time I'm like "Why didn't you shoot TSP?!?!?". Hindsight is 20/20 though, so I'm sure she had her reasons.

Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:13 pm Why would nobody talk to me Day 10.

I was legit IRL busy, and also I don't think it is great to talk much on sleep day since it only helps scum decide who the best NK is.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:08 pm Sean, good game. It was a valiant effort and I imagine subbing in on day 6 of a long game is very hard

Good game to you too. I still can't believe you got away with claiming that wolves wanted to chop Chop and Grogu, but well played. It was an interesting choice to kill Urist over Marmot, and I think one that helped you a lot (probably wouldn't have mattered, but it did feel like Marmot was the most willing to actually consider my side yesterday).

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:06 pm Ftr i tracked doom nowhere n1 that's how I knew she wasn't westin

I would've claimed an invention red lol

Hey! I figured it out!

GG all, good job TSP. Or especially good job Urist if it is Urist, but probably just TSP. Sorry town, I tried :/

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:02 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:41 pm Ok, it is clear based on present information that it was to the advantage of the scum team for chop to get chopped on day 6 and grogu to get chopped on day 7. I think this was clear from the get go, but at least the grogu one was a little more up in the air? Maybe there were worlds where you're concerned that sprityo was a wolf, but even then you give him the opportunity to prove himself with the vig shot, idk. The main person pushing those things in the thread was Sean, and the logic he was used to do so is flawed at best. Now, there are problems with the use of present information to judge past circumstances, but it is clear that me and Urist were arguing for the kills that were optimal for the town and that Sean was arguing for the kills that were optimal for the wolves

Like seriously, TSP's argument ISN'T that I was pushing for Chop and Grogu to get some sort of towncred, but that WOLVES wanted Chop and Grogu to get killed over Alison. Like really? In what world do wolves want their own members to get chopped? (like, I know sometimes it is good to let a member go if it sets the others up well, but again, TSP hasn't said anything like that here).

If the wolves wanted Alison alive, why were there 2 wolves on Alison D6 and 3 on Alison D7?

Woo! 15 minutes until I lose:)

Urist wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:49 pm How funny would it be if me voting tsp was just an april fools joke

So is your mind made up then? If so, please let me know so I can stop caring.

Urist wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:59 pm It was anti town to keep alison alive why would enclave not argue for that

Because it is even more antitown to keep a wolf alive.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:41 pm Ok, it is clear based on present information that it was to the advantage of the scum team for chop to get chopped on day 6 and grogu to get chopped on day 7. I think this was clear from the get go, but at least the grogu one was a little more up in the air? Maybe there were worlds where you're concerned that sprityo was a wolf, but even then you give him the opportunity to prove himself with the vig shot, idk. The main person pushing those things in the thread was Sean, and the logic he was used to do so is flawed at best. Now, there are problems with the use of present information to judge past circumstances, but it is clear that me and Urist were arguing for the kills that were optimal for the town and that Sean was arguing for the kills that were optimal for the wolves

Like seriously, TSP's argument ISN'T that I was pushing for Chop and Grogu to get some sort of towncred, but that WOLVES wanted Chop and Grogu to get killed over Alison. Like really? In what world do wolves want their own members to get chopped? (like, I know sometimes it is good to let a member go if it sets the others up well, but again, TSP hasn't said anything like that here).

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:53 pm clowns to the left of me jokers to my right

Yes, I'm the clown when you are trying to make the case that Enclave wanted us to yeet an Enclave member over a 3p...

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:46 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:43 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:34 pm hmm chop the outed wolf with a (possible) vest and vig shot, or chop the outed vanilla goon

Slaver isn't a wolf? Didn't you brag a little while about about understanding the setup? Like literally slaver is orange, which JJJ says is "most classically "independent"", and town doesn't need to kill the slaver to win, and the slaver can win with town. They are 3p, not wolf. So yeah, chop the wolf, or even chop in the PoE (like Grogu... whom you yeeted Alison over...) over chopping the 3p. Also, the fact Alison didn't shoot the night after she was outed essentially confirmed that she didn't have a shot left, since it was in her benefit to appear as harmless as possible (and the best way to prove she was harmless would have been to give us a mech reason to believe she had no shots left).

BECAUSE GROGU WAS GONNA GET SHOT

IIRC, this didn't even become clear until reasonably close to EoD, and either way... wouldn't it have been nice if we would have lunched Grogu instead, then Spirtyo could have shot into the remaining PoE, and we would have had a 1 smaller PoE the rest of the game?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:41 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:39 pm If you play in a game with multiple factions, do you expect one faction with a very easy wincon to have more people in it than a faction with a much harder to satisfy wincon? No? Why not? Because that would be unbalanced. I've already explained this multiple times, but Hubologists literally need to kill 4 people to satisfy their non-enclave wincon, where Redding needs to kill ONE. So does it make sense to have Hubologists only have one rule, where Redding has two? No. It isn't out of the realm of possibilities, but it would be unexpected, and JJJ literally said he is proud of his ability to balance games, so I think it is reasonable to assume that the game is reasonably well-balanced.

pretty sure mafia is a game where normally there are two factions and they have approximately equal to achieve win cons and their sizes are not balanced but again, not talking about it. we have moved on.

So you DOOOO know what balancing is. The harder the wincon is to satisfy, the more people the faction gets to make the game BALANCED. Wolves have a NK, BTSC and knowledge of their identity, so their wincon is easier to satisfy if teamsizes are equal, so wolves get less people than town to BALANCE the game.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:34 pm hmm chop the outed wolf with a (possible) vest and vig shot, or chop the outed vanilla goon

Slaver isn't a wolf? Didn't you brag a little while about about understanding the setup? Like literally slaver is orange, which JJJ says is "most classically "independent"", and town doesn't need to kill the slaver to win, and the slaver can win with town. They are 3p, not wolf. So yeah, chop the wolf, or even chop in the PoE (like Grogu... whom you yeeted Alison over...) over chopping the 3p. Also, the fact Alison didn't shoot the night after she was outed essentially confirmed that she didn't have a shot left, since it was in her benefit to appear as harmless as possible (and the best way to prove she was harmless would have been to give us a mech reason to believe she had no shots left).

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:30 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:26 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:17 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:59 pm

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:50 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:43 pm

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:41 pm Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

at least I made arguments. I repped into a hard game to rep into, with a slot that was not set up well and I tried.

Yeah sorry about that if you're town. You're putting way more effort into this game than I am, which is why I feel bad that I'm the one who has to make this decision.
Honestly I'm trying to look for reasons for why your slot would be town but I've got nothing. Can you point at anything you've done this game that you wouldn't have done as scum?

I wouldn't have resisted an Alison yeet two days in a row if I was a wolf when my scumbuddy was up for a yeet.

I shot down TSP's idea about ending the game yesterday rather than today since F4 is better for scum than F3. If I was a wolf, I would have taken my chances in F4 if it felt like town would have been up for it.

I also pushed hard for claims, which I may not have done as a wolf since the claims helped box scum in.

I also probably wouldn't have cleared Marmot based on balancing if I was a wolf since he was pretty heavily suspected and could have been a mislunch if I hadn't committed to always lunching TSP before Marmot two or three days ago.

thing one is flat false in general, but I've accepted that in any world you believe it
thing two is flat false for you
things three and four are false enough

Thing one isn't false. We lost a mislim chopping someone who was outed, but whom didn't need to be chopped. Since we are in F3 right now with a PoE of 2, that ONE mislim that we lost would have solved the game for us.

Thing two isn't false? F4 is always better for the wolf than F3? I think it is super suspicious you wanted to end it in F4 btw. Why was that?

"false enough"? What does that even mean? If you don't believe the Marmot thing, why did you say earlier today that you started yesterday thinking about voting Marmot? It sounds like YOU felt he was worth suspecting. Unless I missed something, I was the only one who had put Marmot as reasonably clear. Why would I do that as a wolf? TBH, I would have killed Urist as a wolf last night. I think you only killed Marmot because you knew 1. I had him far above you, and 2. Marmot had expressed that he felt good about my ISO (granted still suspicious of my slot overall), whereas Urist did not express anything good about me yesterday.

you're wrong on thing one
thing two is false -- note -- for you, since you personally wouldn't have fared well. i pushed for it because i wanted the game to be over this is establishd:P
as to false enough I said that I had no idea what it means. i dunno why you cleared marmot for ~balancing~. I have no idea what ~balancing~ means. every time you say something about ~balancing~ I think it's just an in-between step for you to make whatever claim you want to tbh

So... you think Wolf!me would fare better in F3 without the one person who actually had positive things to say about me yesterday... vs F4 WITH the one person who actually had positive things to say about me yesterday? What?

How do you not know what balancing is? If you play in a 13 person game, do you expect there to be 6 wolves, or 1 wolf? No? Why not? Because that would be unbalanced.

If you play in a game with multiple factions, do you expect one faction with a very easy wincon to have more people in it than a faction with a much harder to satisfy wincon? No? Why not? Because that would be unbalanced. I've already explained this multiple times, but Hubologists literally need to kill 4 people to satisfy their non-enclave wincon, where Redding needs to kill ONE. So does it make sense to have Hubologists only have one rule, where Redding has two? No. It isn't out of the realm of possibilities, but it would be unexpected, and JJJ literally said he is proud of his ability to balance games, so I think it is reasonable to assume that the game is reasonably well-balanced.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:24 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:09 pm Okay, so thoughts before I start digging into ISOs.


Right now I am definitely leaning towards voting TSP over Urist, but I am going to try to read as much of both your ISOs before I commit to anything.

like you say this and ping urist with a question (which he didn't answer i think but who cares) and have literally not given it a second thought

Yeah well your ISO was long enough that I ran out of steam, and the more I thought about it, the more clear Urist was.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:17 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:59 pm

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:50 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:43 pm

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:41 pm Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

at least I made arguments. I repped into a hard game to rep into, with a slot that was not set up well and I tried.

Yeah sorry about that if you're town. You're putting way more effort into this game than I am, which is why I feel bad that I'm the one who has to make this decision.
Honestly I'm trying to look for reasons for why your slot would be town but I've got nothing. Can you point at anything you've done this game that you wouldn't have done as scum?

I wouldn't have resisted an Alison yeet two days in a row if I was a wolf when my scumbuddy was up for a yeet.

I shot down TSP's idea about ending the game yesterday rather than today since F4 is better for scum than F3. If I was a wolf, I would have taken my chances in F4 if it felt like town would have been up for it.

I also pushed hard for claims, which I may not have done as a wolf since the claims helped box scum in.

I also probably wouldn't have cleared Marmot based on balancing if I was a wolf since he was pretty heavily suspected and could have been a mislunch if I hadn't committed to always lunching TSP before Marmot two or three days ago.

thing one is flat false in general, but I've accepted that in any world you believe it
thing two is flat false for you
things three and four are false enough

Thing one isn't false. We lost a mislim chopping someone who was outed, but whom didn't need to be chopped. Since we are in F3 right now with a PoE of 2, that ONE mislim that we lost would have solved the game for us.

Thing two isn't false? F4 is always better for the wolf than F3? I think it is super suspicious you wanted to end it in F4 btw. Why was that?

"false enough"? What does that even mean? If you don't believe the Marmot thing, why did you say earlier today that you started yesterday thinking about voting Marmot? It sounds like YOU felt he was worth suspecting. Unless I missed something, I was the only one who had put Marmot as reasonably clear. Why would I do that as a wolf? TBH, I would have killed Urist as a wolf last night. I think you only killed Marmot because you knew 1. I had him far above you, and 2. Marmot had expressed that he felt good about my ISO (granted still suspicious of my slot overall), whereas Urist did not express anything good about me yesterday.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:12 pm (I'm also slightly disturbed by the fact that sean has done zero evaluation on urist after his like two posts but I don't know how to voice that but I just wanted to see if anyone else noticed it)

And you have?

Unless there is a viable alternative explanation for the no-kill night, Urist is more-or-less confirmed.

I've looked into the Nook thing, and yeah, I don't really have a viable explanation. I'm still thinking Nook didn't use an invention, and just faked a read on DoO. Or possibly Nook investigated DoO N1, got a "no result" D3, and figured that if DoO was a 3-shot cop or whatever Westin is, DoO would have actually done something N1.

I feel like Nook would have made some attempt to communicate that he was given an invention if he was, since that could help confirm someone.

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:10 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:03 pm

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:53 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:48 pm I really think you should think about if Marge was Jack's fakeclaim. TSP seems to think Zeke was, but given that Made claimed something else first, got locked into a certain alignment, then reclaimed, do you think it is really likely that Zeke was indeed a fakeclaim given to scum, and not just Made scrambling?

If TSP is scum then it's probable that mafia got both roles as fakeclaims. But then why doesn't Made claim to have given Nanook the invention?

I don't think scum would have been given two inventor roles?

Idk, I'm still not convinced that Nook got an invention. I'd have to go read what happened after Made claimed Zeke. How long was he alive for after he switched claims?

Oh, also I still think you should ask yourself why scum!Syn would come into the thread and claim to have vigged KZA, who was town. Neither Poison nor Syn had to claim when they did, and killing KZA did not make my slot look good at all, so it makes no sense for scum to pretend to be a town vig taking credit for that shot.

Made claimed Zeke at about 24h into d3. So he was alive for another 24hish afterward.

Poison claimed vig d3, I don't think Syn had much of a choice especially since Frank had already used the shot. I don't think scumSyn had any option other than to claim the KZA kill.

But like... why would Scum!Poison do that? Especially if you think Frank had already shot, scum!Poison would be essentially committing suicide by claiming without reason if that was the case.

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:53 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:48 pm I really think you should think about if Marge was Jack's fakeclaim. TSP seems to think Zeke was, but given that Made claimed something else first, got locked into a certain alignment, then reclaimed, do you think it is really likely that Zeke was indeed a fakeclaim given to scum, and not just Made scrambling?

If TSP is scum then it's probable that mafia got both roles as fakeclaims. But then why doesn't Made claim to have given Nanook the invention?

I don't think scum would have been given two inventor roles?

Idk, I'm still not convinced that Nook got an invention. I'd have to go read what happened after Made claimed Zeke. How long was he alive for after he switched claims?

Oh, also I still think you should ask yourself why scum!Syn would come into the thread and claim to have vigged KZA, who was town. Neither Poison nor Syn had to claim when they did, and killing KZA did not make my slot look good at all, so it makes no sense for scum to pretend to be a town vig taking credit for that shot.

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:50 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:43 pm

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:41 pm Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

at least I made arguments. I repped into a hard game to rep into, with a slot that was not set up well and I tried.

Yeah sorry about that if you're town. You're putting way more effort into this game than I am, which is why I feel bad that I'm the one who has to make this decision.
Honestly I'm trying to look for reasons for why your slot would be town but I've got nothing. Can you point at anything you've done this game that you wouldn't have done as scum?

I wouldn't have resisted an Alison yeet two days in a row if I was a wolf when my scumbuddy was up for a yeet.

I shot down TSP's idea about ending the game yesterday rather than today since F4 is better for scum than F3. If I was a wolf, I would have taken my chances in F4 if it felt like town would have been up for it.

I also pushed hard for claims, which I may not have done as a wolf since the claims helped box scum in.

I also probably wouldn't have cleared Marmot based on balancing if I was a wolf since he was pretty heavily suspected and could have been a mislunch if I hadn't committed to always lunching TSP before Marmot two or three days ago.

I really think you should think about if Marge was Jack's fakeclaim. TSP seems to think Zeke was, but given that Made claimed something else first, got locked into a certain alignment, then reclaimed, do you think it is really likely that Zeke was indeed a fakeclaim given to scum, and not just Made scrambling?

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:41 pm Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

at least I made arguments. I repped into a hard game to rep into, with a slot that was not set up well and I tried.

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:31 pm [VOTE: Poisynzie] aubergine for now bc that's the way I'm leaning

Well, I hope you change your mind before EoD. I don't know what else to say...

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:22 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:59 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:53 pm I counted 6, sorry. Still the easiest probably. Redding coming close.

So if you truly believe that Hubologists have an easier wincon than Redding, how do you reconcile the fact that in the world you are claiming to be true, there is only 1 Redding, and they are an INVENTOR, meaning their only power is to give stuff to people in other factions? Did JJJ just mess up big time with balancing here?

If your role is real then the only players you can't kill are slaver and jjj, i.e. your enemies. This is not a good argument.

Oh, I suppose that is true. I forgot that the vig shot was conditional. At least I have extra vote power, and the shot can be used either on Enclave or as a limited info cop checl.

@Urist I just wanted to let you know that I'm probably not going to do any more of TSP's ISO. If you have any questions or want to talk about anything, I'll check in periodically over the next 24 hours, but otherwise I think the game is just in your hands now (sorry about the pressure:P).

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:53 pm I counted 6, sorry. Still the easiest probably. Redding coming close.

So if you truly believe that Hubologists have an easier wincon than Redding, how do you reconcile the fact that in the world you are claiming to be true, there is only 1 Redding, and they are an INVENTOR, meaning their only power is to give stuff to people in other factions? Did JJJ just mess up big time with balancing here?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:42 pm hubo have the easiest win con, there were two of them and two of bos

Uhh... what?

Hubologists have to kill at least half of Wastelanders+Arroyo. There were 5 wastelanders and 2 Arroyo, meaning that Hubologists needed 4 people dead to satisfy their non-enclave wincon. Tell me again that they had the easiest wincon? Wtf is this even?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:41 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:36 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:26 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:18 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:08 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:07 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:03 pm (like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

jack who you said was probably confirmed town because "balance"

Yes, IF you were indeed Redding, then Jack would have been clear there. Now it is clear you AREN'T Redding, you're a wolf. You say you study math, but you seem to be having trouble with a pretty basic "if ..., then ..." statement.

The clear semantic implication is if I claim redding then jack is probably clear, but I'll let the whole thing go if you can explain how Jack is probably clear at all

Wastelanders, NCR and BoS are the big blue factions, all of which have the most dangerous win conditions. If all the green factions with easier wincons had 2 people in them, it would make sense for the blue factions (like BoS, who has to take all three bad factions - aka has the most dangerous enemies) to have 3 people. You really want to tell me that BoS and Redding having the same number of people in them makes sense from a balancing perspective, given BoS's enemies?

all the other factions have two. so yes.

Blue factions:
Wastelanders: 5
NCR: 3
BoS: 2, but reasonably could be 3.

All the other factions have town enemies and easier to satisfy wincons. Scum is going to pick off a lot of town, so the non-enclave part of all the green and light blue factions are much easier to satisfy than BoS's wincon. I can't tell if you're playing dumb right now to goad me or if you just literally don't get it, but the implication is reasonable. You also seem to continue to ignore that I wasn't sold on that, which doesn't look good on your part.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:36 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:26 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:18 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:08 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:07 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:03 pm (like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

jack who you said was probably confirmed town because "balance"

Yes, IF you were indeed Redding, then Jack would have been clear there. Now it is clear you AREN'T Redding, you're a wolf. You say you study math, but you seem to be having trouble with a pretty basic "if ..., then ..." statement.

The clear semantic implication is if I claim redding then jack is probably clear, but I'll let the whole thing go if you can explain how Jack is probably clear at all

Wastelanders, NCR and BoS are the big blue factions, all of which have the most dangerous win conditions. If all the green factions with easier wincons had 2 people in them, it would make sense for the blue factions (like BoS, who has to take all three bad factions - aka has the most dangerous enemies) to have 3 people. You really want to tell me that BoS and Redding having the same number of people in them makes sense from a balancing perspective, given BoS's enemies?

Also, it is very clear that I was hesitant about that implication. It would make sense for BoS to have 3 if Redding has 2, but I clearly wasn't full-clearing Jack even in a world where you actually were Redding.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:26 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:18 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:08 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:07 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:03 pm (like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

jack who you said was probably confirmed town because "balance"

Yes, IF you were indeed Redding, then Jack would have been clear there. Now it is clear you AREN'T Redding, you're a wolf. You say you study math, but you seem to be having trouble with a pretty basic "if ..., then ..." statement.

The clear semantic implication is if I claim redding then jack is probably clear, but I'll let the whole thing go if you can explain how Jack is probably clear at all

Wastelanders, NCR and BoS are the big blue factions, all of which have the most dangerous win conditions. If all the green factions with easier wincons had 2 people in them, it would make sense for the blue factions (like BoS, who has to take all three bad factions - aka has the most dangerous enemies) to have 3 people. You really want to tell me that BoS and Redding having the same number of people in them makes sense from a balancing perspective, given BoS's enemies?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:16 pm sean read the first two days and apparently took diligent notes on chop's tactics

Kinda seems clear TSP knows I didn't talk to Chop in wolf chat... Hmm...

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:08 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:07 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:03 pm (like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

jack who you said was probably confirmed town because "balance"

Yes, IF you were indeed Redding, then Jack would have been clear there. Now it is clear you AREN'T Redding, you're a wolf. You say you study math, but you seem to be having trouble with a pretty basic "if ..., then ..." statement.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:03 pm (like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:02 pm ergo your logic sucks

Eh, you and I both know that isn't true. Everyone else will as well before long.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:58 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:30 pm So right now we have:

Jackofhearts2005 - Authur Pendragon of BoS
Long Con - Unspecified vaniila of Wastelander
Marmot - AHS-9 of Hubologists
MartinGG99 - Louis Salvatore of New Reno
Poison / Syn / Seanzie - Sheriff Marion of Redding
Spacedaisy / sprityo - Joshua of BoS
TonyStarkPrime - Unknown
Urist - Vice President Carlson of NCR

Assuming all these are true, this gives us faction sizes of:
Wastelanders - 5
NCR - 3
BoS - 3
Arroyo - 2
Redding - 1
New Reno - 2
Hubologist - 2
JJJ - 1
??? - 1

TSP I think just softclaimed Redding, or if not, he isn't paying attention. If TSP is indeed Redding, then for balance purposes I would say Marmot is definitely clear, and Jack is also probably clear? So in that world, LC is the clear vote, with a very small side of Jack.

If TSP is not redding, then whatever faction he is in I think would need to be examined. LC probably still questionable.

this is the only other thing I have to point out about sean's iso

If TSP is Redding, Jack is probably clear... Jack is not clear, ergo...

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:41 pm Ok, it is clear based on present information that it was to the advantage of the scum team for chop to get chopped on day 6 and grogu to get chopped on day 7. I think this was clear from the get go, but at least the grogu one was a little more up in the air? Maybe there were worlds where you're concerned that sprityo was a wolf, but even then you give him the opportunity to prove himself with the vig shot, idk. The main person pushing those things in the thread was Sean, and the logic he was used to do so is flawed at best. Now, there are problems with the use of present information to judge past circumstances, but it is clear that me and Urist were arguing for the kills that were optimal for the town and that Sean was arguing for the kills that were optimal for the wolves

Uh... no.

Chopping Alison was a mistake. If we would have lunched Grogu, Spirtyo could have shot someone else in the PoE, possibly Jack, which would have put us at a huge advantage. We lost a mislunch because of this. If you think me trying to lunch Grogu is optimal for the wolves, you are kidding yourself. I'm sure you weren't happy when Grogu got shot, but I bet you were still happy the PoE was big enough to give you a path to F3.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:06 am you are taking one post where I say that people read the setup and your claim is that if I were town I would instead know that nanook had information and then, instead of encouraging people to read the setup, be completely content with the fact that most people hadn't read the setup and were saying nonsense things

There is no indication in thread that anyone is having trouble with the setup... except perhaps DoO.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:56 am like ok jack's in wolf chat, we've played a billion games, he probably said the way to get TSP chopped is to be belligerent and get him flustered, idk.

Good try, but no. Your story doesn't check out, sorry about it.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:42 am and if I'm a wolf I'd literally have no reason to believe that nanook had mech info but I feel like I already said that

See, weird thing is though, your actions line up with either possiblity,

1. Maybe wolf!TSP suspected Nook knew something and tried to deflect,

or

2. Maybe TSP didn't have a clue about Nook at this point,

but what your actions don't line up with is

3. Town!TSP gave Nook an invention two nights ago, and thus suspected he may have used it the night before.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:41 am like I'm not entirely convinced that you have actually read the beginning of day 3 because I feel like the context of that post is abundantly clear and it also clearly has nothing to do with me trying to slow the thread down because I think nanook might have mech info

Oh I have.

If you truly believe the context is clear, can you please quote the posts that made you think that slowing down for 3 hours was a good idea, instead of hearing out Nook, the person whom you knew should have just used an invention you gave them?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:28 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:22 am

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:18 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:16 am

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:14 am like if I'm a wolf there then I have no idea that nanook has info and thus have no reason to slow down the thread for the reason you're suggesting

No? You mean as wolf if someone comes into the thread asking about your wolf-buddy, your wolf ears don't perk up?

nearly every other post on that page is me and urist talking about doom's claim

It sounds like you were very cognizant of the situation. Why did you want people to take a 3 hour pause given the information in thread?

because I would like other people to be cognizant of the situation presumably

Cognizant of the information that Nook presumably has?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:27 am wait are you seriously going with the theory that he made it up

Are you seriously going with the theory that you knew he should have mech info and tried to slow the game down after he makes a post suggesting that he might have mech info?

He didn't "make it up". There was clearly suspicion on DoO from the day before, she was a natural target for a fakecheck, I've seen Nook do this sort of fakeclaim before. Usually early in the day. When I've seen it he was wrong, and eventually admited it was fake, but in this case if he was right and thought he was right, idk if he would say anything.