The Syndicate

Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:38 pm c4, can you talk more about your progression on alison? i get how you went from “i think alison v” to “not shielding her anymore” but i don’t get how you went from that to voting her

I had a part about this somewhere up there

Dizzy's case made sense, Alison's mid-D2 return was bad, final straw was her saying "Dizzy has done nothing" and "I haven't read the thread" like three minutes apart

Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:27 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:17 pm Hally tell me about Mac
Normally there's light at the end of a Mac tunnel and I'm still waiting for that so what do you like about him so far
idk, once i untilted myself and tried to think things through i just felt he was town

like, the way he entered today with “wolves are running the game we’re all getting duped” just feels like that town!mac fire

go back and look at how he entered D2 in GoC as a wolf

i locked him as a wolf from spec because D1 town got kinda stomped but D2 he entered and had like no fire whatsoever and was posting lazy

when mac is a villager and thinks town is getting wrecked this is more like how he gets ime

I'm seeing it

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:30 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:24 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:18 pm Like c4 there is literally no argument you can make that is "c4 has produced more content and solved harder than mac". It's just completely obviously not the case.
Oh my god.
It's literally available to you to read. You've been a ghost I've forgotten has been in the game for the majority of it and reading your ISO I can see why because you're said nothing controversial all game and have just had hedgy under the radar takes.

Spoiler: show

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:18 pm Like c4 there is literally no argument you can make that is "c4 has produced more content and solved harder than mac". It's just completely obviously not the case.

Oh my god.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:16 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:12 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:02 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:00 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:58 pm c4’s entrance feels kinda underwhelming, i agree
Same
who are the wolves?
Nook is wolfy and I haven't felt a need to persuade anyone

"Mac needs to step it up" has been hammered into all of us enough
Gut says he's been playing in a generally unaligned way but I don't normally need my gut with Mac

I have reasons to like all of Axe/Dizzy/Radish/Wilgy and just need some of them to be stronger ffs
what are those reasons?

Axe has a towny self-absorption
Dizzy is being significantly more effective and less agenda'd than GoC
Radish's takes have felt like they came without obligation
Wilgy made catches I didn't expect him to when I didn't expect him to

Hally tell me about Mac
Normally there's light at the end of a Mac tunnel and I'm still waiting for that so what do you like about him so far

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:14 pm I've given more solving and content than you and most others.

Buzzer

Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:02 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:00 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:58 pm c4’s entrance feels kinda underwhelming, i agree
Same
who are the wolves?

Nook is wolfy and I haven't felt a need to persuade anyone

"Mac needs to step it up" has been hammered into all of us enough
Gut says he's been playing in a generally unaligned way but I don't normally need my gut with Mac

I have reasons to like all of Axe/Dizzy/Radish/Wilgy and just need some of them to be stronger ffs

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:02 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:00 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:58 pm c4’s entrance feels kinda underwhelming, i agree
Same
How do the Day 1 and Night 1 kills impact your broader view of the game?

I don't usually do much with legacy but this looks like the kind of list where I should do something with legacy
Axe and Wilgy looking like distractions was the big takeaway

Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:58 pm c4’s entrance feels kinda underwhelming, i agree

Same

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:44 pm Yeah I am asking what the reads were that you went into reading it all with that didn't change C4. ie. who are you townreading and scumreading before, and now?

My townreads on Hally and Jay didn't change, my weaker townread on Dizzy didn't change, my "when is this dude gonna start" read on you didn't change because your push just now was clearly either fake or a wolf

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:44 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:41 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:32 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:27 pm The argument was kinda dumb and also somehow doesn't change any of my reads so gj guys
What was dumb about it and what reads did you have that aren't changed?
What was dumb is that you flooded the thread with blatant falsehoods and pushed people for not debunking them with a fine-tooth comb, and it's NAI for you.

The reads that didn't change were... I mean, all of them? Don't see how I was implying anything else. Only alignment takeaway I had was that Jay's reflexive catch on Radish's comment was towny, which changed my Jay read from v to v.
Such as?

The obvious one is "Jay didn't do preflip interactions"
Then "Jay's Hally read changing means the reason his Hally read changed has to have been the most recent thing he said about Hally"

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:16 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:14 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:11 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:08 pm What is my reaction and why is it bad? Is this you trying to make me look bad after a red flip or something?

This got bizarre so fast. I bet it’s pretty hilarious in specchat in some way or another.
No you are sidelining hot takes that feel like cheerleading Jay in a really scummy way and even Jay noticed it.
Your yammering makes zero sense to me. Sorryboutit.

You’re accusing Hally and clearing Hally on breathing in and out.

Or I just don’t get it.

And I believe that if there’s scum between j/hally, it’s likelier to be hally.
You also exaggerate what is happening for some reason. MR and Nanook have had no issues following my train of thought at all. Also you are acting like me changing up me reads and behaving in a weathervaney way is unexpected.

Have either of these two even interacted with your posting today dafuq

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:32 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:27 pm The argument was kinda dumb and also somehow doesn't change any of my reads so gj guys
What was dumb about it and what reads did you have that aren't changed?

What was dumb is that you flooded the thread with blatant falsehoods and pushed people for not debunking them with a fine-tooth comb, and it's NAI for you.

The reads that didn't change were... I mean, all of them? Don't see how I was implying anything else. Only alignment takeaway I had was that Jay's reflexive catch on Radish's comment was towny, which changed my Jay read from v to v.

The argument was kinda dumb and also somehow doesn't change any of my reads so gj guys

Imma take that as a loud and clear no

Oops.

It's lost all effect anyway and it's only about the amount of time you want to waste now.

Dizzy, either all the way or a little less maybe?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:22 pm I had suggested before that Mac and MR are an awkward fit together. I would appreciate second opinions on that, because I could easily be wrong about it and it seems like an important interaction to sort.

Is it still for the Mac/Nook thing early on?

Why do you think that's not w/w? I don't exactly have a counterargument, but it's because I still don't get the argument itself.

It doesn't seem as pressing to say this anymore, but Wilgy gets a break IMO.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:04 pm For me, kill order is MR, Dizzy, Nanook.

If scum is outside of that... Well, mistakes were made.

This looks like something I've seen before, but without Mac.

Wya on Mac

Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:05 pm i’m treating NAA as a villager at least for a bit

I am too

[VOTE: MacDougall] aubergine
[VOTE: NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME] aubergine

Start somewhere like this

Sorry @Alison

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:22 pm I might think that NAA is handling this EOD in a town manner.

I feel it too but meybe because I want to

At least I think I can tell the people who were unaligning Alison/Axe to take that read all the way

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:16 pm I will grant that something feels vaguely wrong here. I am not sure how to describe it or if it matters.

If I had to guess it's that the PoE doesn't give a shit that it's the PoE

Kinda feels like a zomg everyone so wolfy game

KEEP
LOSING
FUCKIN
SNIPER
DUELS
GDI

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:49 pm Welp I'm ready to go. I'll let anyone protest if they want before I return Alison to L-1.

I'm paused for the day but I got the impression that people like Dizzy weren't

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:22 pm Axe just insists he must be exactly the fifth Alison vote

Did he just vote Alison to spite me

Axe just insists he must be exactly the fifth Alison vote

I get that the most likely hammerers were already there but nah

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:07 pm How long until day end again?

2h

Oh and yeah this writing style is completely normal for Jay

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:44 pm Why do we actually town read Hally again? I've already forgotten.

Does Jimmay always write posts that seems so academic they basically end up lacking meaning (to me?) Have I just forgotten. I feel like every statement and every read is just "quantitively this and qualitatively that but inverse it and flip it at its head over time and you'll get the sum of my concern for the nuances of.." Ok, this is totally a parody and done with a lot of love, I hope you believe me Jimmay. And it may very, very well be more on my side. I just find it hard to process what your actual point is a lot of the time.

The thing that made me just stop thinking about Hally was this

Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:28 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:19 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:55 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:54 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:53 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:49 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:47 pm i’m gonna be really annoyed if both alison and NAA are v
I get why you'd be annoyed if NAA is V treating you like this, but what did I do?
i probably shouldn’t lump you in with him

was annoyed at you earlier because it felt like you weren’t even trying to find me and were trying to pigeonhole me into your logic with the dizzy thing and then seriously asking me why i wouldn’t be ok blindly sheeping you when i don’t v read you and you wolf read me

just frankly asinine things that i have a hard time seeing you come at me with as a villager

but you’ve dropped it now so hopefully that’s the end of that
All of those things are reaction tests.
your entire push on me was a reaction test?
This seems kinda Alison 101 lmao

Also I think the main reason for my Alison tr is presentation, still having trouble describing it but there's an efficiency to it, she gets to the point quickly and bluntly in a way that looks designed to hit harder when you read it
Just makes me actually believe she's trying to stir the thread, and I also think it describes what I've seen of v!Alison better than what I've seen of w!Alison

And generally she seems to not have any kind of schedule for who she pressures and when but these reads are always wrong from me so take that one with a grain of salt
the thing is i don’t really buy that it was all a reaction test - that feels like a retcon because i wolf read her push on me and she probably wasn’t expecting that because i tend not to OMGUS

also re: the rest, the reason i think she’s wolfy is because i think v!alison is generally more measured and reasonable (albeit still forceful) whereas here i feel like she’s been going 1000mph trying to engineer something to push on that will stick, and that just feels like how i expect a wolf of her archetype to play in a strong player list where she knows if she’s not aggressive pushing her agenda she’s going to get boxed out of the thread very quickly

If w!Hally came up with the perspective of "I'm responding more aggressively than is typical of me, wolves would be unprepared and more willing to initially bs a push on me based on my normal meta, and Alison's treatment of me reflects that, followed by her realizing that this isn't my typical town game this time and going into damage control" as a wolf, then holy fucking shit lol

Alison Nook Mac Axe Wilgy

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:36 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:34 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:25 pm
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:23 pm Imagine it's Alison/NAA and both wolves have sat on my wagon for the bulk of the Day.

The fun thing about always being LHF is being bait.
I've considered it. NAA's sheep isn't terribly hard to view through that lens.
any other interactions stick out to you within your PoE? i know in the past you’ve tended to solve through interactions a lot even on D1

not expecting a chart, just anything you’ve noted
Let me take a quick look.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:39 pm Anyone else notice that ISOs are a bit weird now? Quoted material within posts are collapsed into the post, and it makes it harder than it usually is to interpret. I think it's because posts are being truncated now, and they weren't in the past.

It's a bad reason to townread Jay but it's a reason

Hally wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:22 pm for anyone who missed it

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:13 am
Hally wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:09 am
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:04 am
Hally wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:02 am
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:59 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:55 am

I suppose you could be right about Jay. He probably hasn't been as towny as he'd need to be to be as townread as he has been at least.
Jay gave a list early on that was so outrageous to me (me, Alison, Hally as top scum reads), certainly after Hally more or less left wolf range (I think - Limited/No personal experience dealing with them).

I think Alison has done some towny things... And is over scrutinized compared to her regular game.

I'm town...

So I'm wondering what compelled JJJ to release such a terrible reads list, I assume it's just that he's mafia. I think JJJ voting Alison makes it incredibly likely one of them is wolf, and JJJ has been wolfy.
weren’t you suspecting me around that time too?
Yeah, but I dropped it around the time when I asked why you were upset at me for basically reciprocating a "what you just did was scummy".
but that was after jay listed me as a wolf read lol

you were wolf reading me at the same time he was so why is it wolfy when he does it?
The timeline isn't relevant. Either the read is correct or incorrect. Reads are formed based on that check.
this is not a real take

It is not

Hally wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:20 pm i wanna kill NAA over mac and alison

to me NAA’s play just reads like open wolfing while daring anyone to do anything about it and then snickering to himself when he skates by

also the difficulty i’ve had getting traction on my push on him while other targets have gotten votes very easily indicates he’s a wolf

i see he’s since gotten a vote from marmot but idc about that because i v read marmot, and jay seems to be the only other person willing to push NAA with me and i v read him too, whereas it feels like every other wagon has been joined by people i don’t v read

NAA just feels like the play here

Big meh on VCA in a game with 2 wolves

I think the things Axe's snickering about are more based on what he's saying about everyone else than what everyone else is saying about him
I can't ride or die a read like this but I think it's towny

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

Radish got better before I forget to say it

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:18 pm Town reads
c4e5g3d5
Hally
MacDougall
Marmot

There's some dissonance here, but gun to head town
Dyslexicon
Master Radishes

Not town reads
Alison
DrWilgy
Nanook
NAA

At 9 vs. 2, an ordinary set of roles would call for a POE pool of 5 players (2 mafia + 3 mischops). The arrangement of this game's matrix provides the likelihood (certainty?) of a mischop being lost to an extra mafia kill or beloved princess, so reduce the POE to 4. We'd then need 6 town reads to square the game away, which for the moment does seem like a genuine challenge. I have a theoretical POE built above, but I would like to be more confident about it than I am.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:08 pm I vaguely understand Dizzy's read on Wilgy. I am not sure I agree with it, but I get it.

I don't understand Mac's read on NAA.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:11 pm @c4e5g3d5 you asked about my Mac read. I'm afraid it's not going to be one that is likely to move your needle a ton, but anyway:

In recent memory, when Mac has been mafia I have been able to tell pretty quickly. There's a certain degree of obviousness about how BS his chaos has been, and it becomes difficult to suspend disbelief for his sake. I don't get that impression generally in this game. I think his reads have mostly made sense and that they have aligned well with my own. When he and I are seeing a similar state of affairs I think that's usually a good sign. The only read of his that I do not follow is his town read on NAA.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:23 pm I could move Mac down a level to the "dissonance" pile. At the least answering c4's prompt made it clearer to me that I cannot concretely justify a town read. I can vaguely justify it.

@Dyslexicon I'm a sucker for this kind of thing
It's the kind of read where you can see where he's leaning and when throughout even though he doesn't say it explicitly at any point
Then little things like that second post being presented as off topic and not for a specific purpose and how he shows off the original townread more than the retraction even while applying pressure come off has lacking agenda
Just a bunch ofextra hoops for w!Jay to jump through that make me think he's genuinely reading Mac

Not my only reason but it's the one I can recall right now and the one I had the most fun finding

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:29 am Jimmay - I actually just need someone to convince me one way or another, cause it's a mixed bag

Target acquired once I get on PC

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:47 am Maybe this game could benefit from 15 minutes of going off-topic. Anyone want a music break? I'll give you a song if you give me a song.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:29 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:27 am Pretty simple my friends:

I don't care about a hammer. I left it alone.

Someone I town read specifically asked for us not to hammer.

I respected my town read's wishes.
I had my hand in the cookie jar, I hadn't offered cookies to anyone sitting at the table, but someone asked, so I gave it to them.

Hahahahahahahahaha

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:04 am
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:02 am I haven't played with c4 before.

And idk. They seem like they are quite alright with many a wagon. They were on MR, Nook and Alison. They are cool with anyone going over and persistently keeps people at 4. I think they are the only one who's been on all 3 potential yeets.
That's worth talking about, @c4e5g3d5. I think I like the observation for Wilgy anyway if it's accurate. I don't remember the wagons clearly.

I didn't vote Alison but I eventually gave vocal support so close enough

I don't think any of the three pushes besides Nook support Wilgy's point in context tho lol, and certainly not in terms of like, holding the rest of the list to the same standards

Hally wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:51 pm c4 do you have an updated alison read?

I've caved so have fun

Original tr prob wasn't that good given Jay's input that Alison could want to do those things... as a wolf
Reentrance had too many are you serious posts to shield
Dizzy made good points

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:30 pm Thinking about Hammering Alison.

You can wait on your decision until tomorrow because if she's town wolves will hammer her by then anyway

Hally wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:13 pm i’m a bit worried this is CoV 2.0 where alison came under fire D1 and correctly caught radishes wolfing while i suspected her and defended radishes like a dingus lol

But I'm totally not w/w with Radish and TMI shielding Alison this time through

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:03 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:00 pm my vote is also on alison in spirit
I guess she's been spirit hammered then

What, you're telling me there are people in this list who aren't willing to hammer?

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