The Syndicate

Don't try to read into me getting frustrated it's for NAI reasons lol.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:21 am Wiml. I hope I've not contributed to that emotion. But I do want it known that I highly respect your general quality of play. Especially after Scythe where, to be honest, even without the tell that you abused against me, I'm not confident I would've caught you in the end anyway. That has probably left me a little over-paranoid of your play, but take whatever time you need. I'd rather play with you and enjoy it whatever the outcome.

You haven't and you're a beacon of calmness in this game regardless of your alignment, and thank you.

90% of my frustration this game is self induced and I'm trying not to direct that at others who don't deserve it, especially because I like all of the players in this lobby.

@Lime Coke what's your read on me?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:34 am

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:10 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:06 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:05 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:52 pm @Wiml generally speaking how do you intend to deal with the nanook slot given he is determined to make zero alignment indicative posts?

If my poe gets flipped I'll have a bunch of AI posts

I said that before i actually read your posts in fairness. I just assumed it was as lacking as usual but I can actually see wheels turning for you in this game. I particularly liked that you called a wiml POE insane, and also when you told him that his POE contained 3-4 town.

Do you really think this is AI for Nook?

I think the reads showed some conviction which would be towny yeah. Not overly but I am just trying to figure a guy out who is determined never to be readable so go easy on me.

I sort of don't mind this response and I do at least appreciate what I think Mac might be trying to do here.

I thought the original post was pockety towards Nanook and was clearing him for things I thought we would both have seen him do as a wolf in the past (given that Mac knows Nook a lot better than I do and I've seen a wolf game where he made reads / commented on other people's reads in an almost identical way to the posts Mac was calling towny) and that's why I was initially so skeptical of Mac's take here.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:31 am

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:19 am

ilario wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:56 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:55 am For instance Wiml may have passed quantity markers but he has made no reads that I look at as being outside his wolf range.

Nanook has not passed any quantity markers but his reads have been more challenging to make than Wiml's reads have been.

i actually agree with this statement

Yeah, well you shouldn't.

You just said you don't struggle to push reads as a wolf. What reads have you made that are outside your wolf range?

I was more referring to the fact that apparently my reads are worse than the player who refuses to explain his and that apparently it's a good thing to agree with that if you're a player who obviously isn't reading my posts very well but ok.

Honestly I think in Scythe I managed to replicate a lot of depth of thought in my reads and put a lot of effort into doing that and you're not really mistaken that it's probably not out of my wolfrange to replicate that.

As for what reads I couldn't replicate that I made this game? It's more what reads wouldn't I replicate and I think illario is the most apparent one there for sure.

ilario wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:17 am

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:16 am I'm just going to take more breaks from the thread if I can become I think it's obvious when I'm playing out of obligation and it dampens the atmosphere.

That’s understandable, look after yourself wiml

Thanks, I appreciate it.

I'm just going to take more breaks from the thread if I can become I think it's obvious when I'm playing out of obligation and it dampens the atmosphere.

ilario wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:09 am Huh? Ur not even someone that I think should be yeeted anymore.

I just agree with the sentiment the I haven’t had that moment where I can say for sure that this is something wiml won’t be able to replicate for sure as wolf. Is it really that absurd for me to think that? If anything it’s a sign of respect for your wolf game cos even if I haven’t seen it I’d imagine it wiiould be pretty good since u seem to win all of them quite comfortably.

Sorry if I'm directing my frustration here at you. I'm annoyed but not at anybody in particular I'm just annoyed.

Yeah I'm done. Next time look at your own reads before you shit on others.

Actually fuck this game.

ilario wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:56 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:55 am For instance Wiml may have passed quantity markers but he has made no reads that I look at as being outside his wolf range.

Nanook has not passed any quantity markers but his reads have been more challenging to make than Wiml's reads have been.

i actually agree with this statement

Yeah, well you shouldn't.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:53 am @Lime Coke @ilario @alexa @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME @Wiml @EnderWiggin @TonyStarkPrime @Esooa

if there was one player in the game you would say is most likely town and one who is most likely mafia who would they be? plz tag me in reply.

Town: illario
Wolf: Mac

@MacDougall

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:06 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:05 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:52 pm @Wiml generally speaking how do you intend to deal with the nanook slot given he is determined to make zero alignment indicative posts?

If my poe gets flipped I'll have a bunch of AI posts

I said that before i actually read your posts in fairness. I just assumed it was as lacking as usual but I can actually see wheels turning for you in this game. I particularly liked that you called a wiml POE insane, and also when you told him that his POE contained 3-4 town.

Do you really think this is AI for Nook?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:52 pm @Wiml generally speaking how do you intend to deal with the nanook slot given he is determined to make zero alignment indicative posts?

Honestly I was willing to default vote him yesterday over you/Trans and I'm probably in the same boat for today as well. I think he has high wolf equity just by PoE and having bad / locked in reads, especially in worlds where you're town.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:50 pm @Esooa do you think that wiml would find it difficult to find the correct words to push you off correctly wolf reading him?

I don't struggle to push people as a wolf.

I'm on record as saying that I think Esooa would try to push me as a wolf if she couldn't nightkill me out of fear that I'd read her correctly but I don't think that's happened this game at all.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:37 pm Is reading Alexa town for getting super upset (I'm crying etc.) a fair read or does she actually have that in her wolf-range? @ilario @Lime Coke

Probably already answered but from what I've seen of her I think that alexa's not above AtE but her emotional reactions are almost always genuine.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:28 pm @Wiml do you really scumread me for trying to project towniness from inside the POE? Is that really your best read?

Yes but not in the way you're describing here. I don't think trying to get townread is inherently scummy as much as the way you were doing it was.

I'll explain more but I want to catch up with the rest of the game first.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:11 am

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:10 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:08 am

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:07 am Does the game still suck?

I've been trying to make it more productive for solving the last few pages. I did tag you with a question.

Yeah I can see the mentions and I'll respond as I get through.

Tbh I don’t really want to play any more lol.

why?

Game is draining, toxic thread I probably don't need to explain, no real developments or anything interesting really happening

Gamestate-wise it feels like nothing is changing and that the game is either going to just auto or that there's some user mega deep wolf in alexa/illario/Esooa that I'm probably never going to find or the game is mostly just won anyway. Like obviously there's a few things I can do (mostly removing myself from the miselim pool, which I don't think is going to be too hard but it's mildly tilting I'm still PoEed on D2 in a game like this, especially when it's for incredibly bad reasons like responding to a question directed at me but it's also not like the biggest issue here it just makes playing feel even worse).

(Also I thought I signed up for a light game, I'd intended to soft quit FM before this and didn't really have the time to play nor am I able to take a step back from the game but that's a whole other tangent I won't go into lol).

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:08 am

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:07 am Does the game still suck?

I've been trying to make it more productive for solving the last few pages. I did tag you with a question.

Yeah I can see the mentions and I'll respond as I get through.

Tbh I don’t really want to play any more lol.

Does the game still suck?

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:13 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:01 pm

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:49 pm I did not. but he discussed his wolf meta in the COV game and I was noting that as reliable? which is part of why i doubt he's a wolf here

As soon as a player acknowledges a meta tell on themselves (that is within their range to reproduce it) they will inevitably try to reproduce it as a wolf or are sandbagging on purpose. Carrots is a good example of the former.

That is to say, I don’t think hardclearing TSP based on self meta he said in a game in April is a good call and there's probably a reason that the players who know him aren't hard meta clearing him.

I believe Alison said he was loosely in town meta though which is probably worth looking into.

this is why I originally did not clear him for that reason. it was after reading his COV game and comparing it to here.. just felt very similarly in addition to the town meta part.

Yeah I had a similar impression as well.

Yeah TSP is playing very similarly here to COV from a brief skim of both ISOs.

I'd like to compare this to a wolf game of his first though.

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:49 pm I did not. but he discussed his wolf meta in the COV game and I was noting that as reliable? which is part of why i doubt he's a wolf here

"How to read TSP: a guide.

TSP is very easy to read. Mafia is a psychological game, and TSP’s mindset as a wolf and as a town is very different. As a wolf, TSP has a desire to be in control. He has studied his Machiavelli and will make every effort to push the game in the way he wishes it to go. But the main thing to think: power hungry.

TSP as town, on the other hand, has no wolfy desire for power. Town TSP has a desire to belong first and foremost. He wants people to recognize him and accept him into their towncores. He has a bit of a messiah complex. He also doesn’t necessarily feel the necessity to make friends, but prefers to avoid making enemies.

I’m slightly tipsy but this will make life easier for all of you in the future"

For reference

@TonyStarkPrime do you have a recent wolfgame (that isn't the torment that was Traitors to Exile) that you'd mind linking?

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:49 pm I did not. but he discussed his wolf meta in the COV game and I was noting that as reliable? which is part of why i doubt he's a wolf here

As soon as a player acknowledges a meta tell on themselves (that is within their range to reproduce it) they will inevitably try to reproduce it as a wolf or are sandbagging on purpose. Carrots is a good example of the former.

That is to say, I don’t think hardclearing TSP based on self meta he said in a game in April is a good call and there's probably a reason that the players who know him aren't hard meta clearing him.

I believe Alison said he was loosely in town meta though which is probably worth looking into.

Thanks, did you find a TSP wolf game?

There aren't any on the MU stats.

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:33 pm okay i iso'd TSP and actually looked at his content in COV and i actually think he's more likely town here.

but like he's townreading Mac/Ender/Nanook the same way i'm townreading the people i know, and i'm certain there's a wolf there

Would you mind linking the TSO games you have?

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:02 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:00 pm

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:54 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:52 pm

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:52 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:42 pm Is there merit to an Ender/LC team?

I'm leaning towards no because of Ender's posting today.

no

Hard no?

obviously a "re-consider at lylo" blahblah but Ender's not going to go out of his way to case and buss LC here if they're w/w.

The thing that made me ask the question is because if Ender is PoEed (and LC wasn't but I don't think he could win solo as a wolf here tbh) then I could see Ender doing it to distance... in theory.

But I think that's in tinfoil land mostly because of the excessive amount of time Ender seems to have put into it that's not directly contributing to distancing if you get what I mean?

Ender has not been immediate POE. There'd be no reason for him to push on his partner imo when there's other easier options. You can say to ride the towncred to a win but there's enough being clearing each other that's just a very unlikely approach.

Tbh I don’t think the fact that Ender pushed LC is inherently not partnered, I think it's the way that Ender went about pushing it that makes it that way.

Although if we agree on the same conclusion it doesn't really matter much.

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:54 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:52 pm

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:52 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:42 pm Is there merit to an Ender/LC team?

I'm leaning towards no because of Ender's posting today.

no

Hard no?

obviously a "re-consider at lylo" blahblah but Ender's not going to go out of his way to case and buss LC here if they're w/w.

The thing that made me ask the question is because if Ender is PoEed (and LC wasn't but I don't think he could win solo as a wolf here tbh) then I could see Ender doing it to distance... in theory.

But I think that's in tinfoil land mostly because of the excessive amount of time Ender seems to have put into it that's not directly contributing to distancing if you get what I mean?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:52 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:45 pm Ftr if I'm wrong on alexa then I think her partner has to be in TSP/LC/Ender.

LC/Alexa doesn’t work I think because of how Alexa handled transcend on day 1

Would you mind expanding on this?

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:52 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:42 pm Is there merit to an Ender/LC team?

I'm leaning towards no because of Ender's posting today.

no

Hard no?

Honestly I think it's possible to just crunch this.

alexa/illario technically could exist but it also doesn't exist.

Ftr if I'm wrong on alexa then I think her partner has to be in TSP/LC/Ender.

Mostly because I think that's the only realistic team where I don't have any wolves in my immediate PoE.

Is there merit to an Ender/LC team?

I'm leaning towards no because of Ender's posting today.

I think this is mostly a tangent into mafia theory than actually game related though lol.

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:21 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:16 pm

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:11 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:10 pm alexa, you literally made the argument that the scumreads of me were so bad that you considered me possibly threadspewed wolf (which was bad in of itself but I won't go there).

So yeah maybe take a guess why I've had to shut down so many bad reads on me this game.

lol yeah i guess that was pretty bad

i'm just not used to you getting this type of attention

There are 7 towns alive.
Wolves need 3 miselims to win.
I don't think any of you, illario, Esooa will go over this game if town.

You can probably work out the maths from there but in the case that you're t/t/t that means that every other townsperson alive besides one will need to be miselimned this game for the wolves to win.

i would consider you a slot i'd pencil in as "never going down if town" ngl so i'm not sure where you're getting there specifically on me/ilario/esooa. i get the logic to a degree but unless the team is exactly TSP/Nanook I feel like both of them are easier to push as a misyeet this phase

I seriously doubt I'm going to go over this phase and if I do I bet it'll be because somebody decided that the timing of my explanation of my scumread on Mac was opportunistic (you know, the explanation that I was explicitly asked to give) or similar levels of lolwillage.

But I know my personal wolf philosophy is always to keep the easier players to flip (which would be Nook and TSP) alive for as long as possible to pretty much guarantee a win. Getting a D1 miselim on me before I obvtown for example is incredibly advantageous to the wolves and is more likely to happen early because shenanigans as well.

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:11 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:10 pm alexa, you literally made the argument that the scumreads of me were so bad that you considered me possibly threadspewed wolf (which was bad in of itself but I won't go there).

So yeah maybe take a guess why I've had to shut down so many bad reads on me this game.

lol yeah i guess that was pretty bad

i'm just not used to you getting this type of attention

There are 7 towns alive.
Wolves need 3 miselims to win.
I don't think any of you, illario, Esooa will go over this game if town.

You can probably work out the maths from there but in the case that you're t/t/t that means that every other townsperson alive besides one will need to be miselimned this game for the wolves to win.

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:10 pm

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:06 pm

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:01 pm

ilario wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:58 am

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:30 am @ilario want to look at this Wiml wolf game with me for comparisons?
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ame-Thread

Honestly he spends a lot of time accusing whoever that scumreads him in that game as having a bad read and uses language such as “any explanation I’m giving people is falling in people with their heads stuck in the sand”

It feels like a lot of discrediting as opposed to trying to understand and work with people.

Though tbh I don’t have much meta of how he reacts to being fossed at town, since all other games I’ve seen him he’s had relatively no pressure (I don’t count anni).

I feel like he's actually doing that here more than normal, Esooa aside

I've also seen him accuse people as town though and even suggest policy yeets on people FOSing him so it may be NAI? i had to talk him out of his FOS on wiz in deck maf because he was being OMGUSy

If you drop a bad read on me I will tell you in detail why it's bad.

I pretty much never OMGUS on reads unless I think they're actually wolf motivated though.

did you ever respond to esooa's case on you?

Not directly but I think I addressed most of the reasons with Esooa while I was catching up.

alexa, you literally made the argument that the scumreads of me were so bad that you considered me possibly threadspewed wolf (which was bad in of itself but I won't go there).

So yeah maybe take a guess why I've had to shut down so many bad reads on me this game.

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:01 pm

ilario wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:58 am

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:30 am @ilario want to look at this Wiml wolf game with me for comparisons?
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ame-Thread

Honestly he spends a lot of time accusing whoever that scumreads him in that game as having a bad read and uses language such as “any explanation I’m giving people is falling in people with their heads stuck in the sand”

It feels like a lot of discrediting as opposed to trying to understand and work with people.

Though tbh I don’t have much meta of how he reacts to being fossed at town, since all other games I’ve seen him he’s had relatively no pressure (I don’t count anni).

I feel like he's actually doing that here more than normal, Esooa aside

I've also seen him accuse people as town though and even suggest policy yeets on people FOSing him so it may be NAI? i had to talk him out of his FOS on wiz in deck maf because he was being OMGUSy

If you drop a bad read on me I will tell you in detail why it's bad.

I pretty much never OMGUS on reads unless I think they're actually wolf motivated though.

ilario wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:49 am

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:47 am

ilario wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:36 am

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:26 am Do you mean TSP voting alexa?

Yeahh

Idk it just seems random and like I can’t fathom why he would be doing anything he’s doing if he was mafia
What does he gain by doing that as scum?

Does he have any reason not to do it as scum? This is mostly just WIFOM tbh.

I mean unless he’s just lolcatting while we fight I don’t really see how it benefits his wincon to potentially get on alexas bad side

Do you think it would have benefitted wolf-TSP's wincon more to vote on a realistic wagon like Mac?

I think if he did then this vote would have been under a lot more scrutiny, especially if whoever he votes flipped town.

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:46 am ohhhhh i thought you meant the wiml game LOL cuz i had that open now
let me check BK

Yeah I thought so too lol.

ilario wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:36 am

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:26 am Do you mean TSP voting alexa?

Yeahh

Idk it just seems random and like I can’t fathom why he would be doing anything he’s doing if he was mafia
What does he gain by doing that as scum?

Does he have any reason not to do it as scum? This is mostly just WIFOM tbh.

ilario wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:38 am He also spends a lot of time trying to look like he’s solving without actually solving. Look at post #872 in that game.

Well yes and grass is green.

Do you mean TSP voting alexa?

alexa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:25 am I don't even know what the gambit was

^^^

I think Ender doing a full meta dive on LC is in his wolf range but it seems weird he'd try so hard when if he's a wolf he's firmly in his slank meta.

ilario wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:20 am Okay so what’s ur poe rn?

My immediate PoE is Mac/Nook/TSP.

If there's a wolf outside of that then it's probably exactly one in Ender/LC.