The Syndicate

Good game. Yeah it was a tough one to work out.

I hate to inform you of this Guillotine, but Mafia 1-shot Vigilante is mechanically sound in a 10P setups. A vigilante if Town it gives an additional shot at possibly killing a Mafia and for Mafia it gives them a chance to kill a confirmed Power Role.

The thing is with no additional kills at night a 10P game WCS for town is 8v2 -> 6v2 -> 4v2 -> 2v2 after 3 misschops. A Vigilante (reguardless of alignment) does not change that mechanically since it goes 8v2 -> 5v2 -> 3v2 -> 1v2 and it is still 3 misschops for Town. The roles is pretty setup agnostic I'd say. Granted yes Vigilante is often Town and not Mafia given my role is mechanically conformable by day 1 vote shenanigans Mafia Vigilante does have a little bit more merit in my opinion.

But I suppose @Epignosis if you are Mafia, can you shoot Seanzie tonight so I don't have to be paranoid about a Mafia Vigilante? K thx.

Granted I don't really see a world where I survive tonight because there is just no good argument for my role being Mafia. The only thing I could be is Mafia Doublevoter and there is just no world where that competes against Town Jailkeeper and Town Vigilante. So I guess I'll speak to you in 25 hours Guillotine.

I think I need to sleep though. I'm not really feeling like I am effectively communicating my thoughts. I actually have too many and I really do just need to see Guillotine flip before really being able to clearly think through who is most likely to be their partner or who of Epignosis and Seanzie would be the Mafia Power Role if Guillotine is Town.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:40 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:38 pm And that's ignoring the fact that you continued to claim Parity Cop for a while into day 2, going so far as to suggest at one point Epignosis is a Town lying about being a Power Role to try and get you killed.
Who is Guillotine's partner?

Who is evil if Guillotine is not mafia?

Well it kind of depends on if Guillotine is a Goon or Power Role. I'm of the belief they are a Mafia Rolecop. If this is correct I would expect one of MR, SVS, Falcon, or Epignosis since none of them are confirmed Power Roles and I do not believe 2 Mafia Power Roles. I trust SVS and Epignosis socially to not be Mafia with Guillotine so that leaves either MR or Falcon, both are honestly equally likely in my eyes though I am leaning on MR because Falcon's day 1 felt pretty good.

If Guillotine is a Mafia Goon, that does still throw into question if we actually have 3 Town Power Roles or not. It's really hard to say because Guillotine is just so all over the place right now. I think I trust Epignosis to not be claiming as a way to out their partner. I could see Mafia Vigilante and thus Seanzie. Guillotine suggested this could be the case, but I am not putting it out of the realm of possibilities Guillotine isn't just distancing from Seanzie because they knew they were screwed.

If Guillotine is Town then I think I would agree with Guillotine about Mafia Vigilante. I was sort of suspecting this world for a while since mechanically speaking 1 additional death via a Vigilante just puts the game to 3v2 instead of 4v2 day 2 if Town double outed Townies days 1 and 2. So realistically it's not changing anything and completely viable for Vigilante to be either alignment. Jailkeeper is much in the same boat. The two could realistically be opposite alignments or the same alignment and that's not something that will mechanically be confirmable. My opinion is that Seanzie has felt socially more townie than Epignosis and Epignosis could have just have gotten a good read that the Parity Cop claim was complete BS with a Mafia Jailkeeper in play and outed to try and gain some good karma for pushing the lying Parity Cop. There is a world where all 3 Power Roles are town, but I am having trouble thinking of what Mafia Power Role could even be in play to balance that out, even if others assume I am lying and a Mafia Double Voter that is in no way nearly strong enough to counter Town Jailkeeper + Town Vigilante. So I'm leaning on the 3 Power Role claims just being the actual 3 Power Roles and we have nothing else in play. I'd have to think further from there about if the Jailkeeper or Vigilante is Mafia and who their partner would be. It would still come down to 1 of Epignosis/Seanzie and then 1 of MR/SVS/Falcon. Right now I'd suspect Seanize/MR.

And that's ignoring the fact that you continued to claim Parity Cop for a while into day 2, going so far as to suggest at one point Epignosis is a Town lying about being a Power Role to try and get you killed.

I had a long day so only getting caught up EoD, but I'm just willing to let this ride and go from there.

I just don't trust the Parity Cop as Vanilla to bait the Night Kill plan and gives off the opposite intent.

There's a million and one things you could have claimed instead and as Seanzie pointed out it still baits Cop CCs.

Not to mention Parity Cop gets no Night 1 info so Mafia don't even really need to fear the claim to kill immediately.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:40 am Yeet me today if you must but don't expect apologies from me post game cause I will not, I played pro-town

For what it's worth I do think it's a fair play for a town to do so.

I just don't really believe you here. If you were trying to die night 1 as a Vanilla Townie, Parity Cop isn't the claim.

Mafia are fairly disincentivized from killing a Parity Cop claim since you couldn't get info night 1. So claiming Parity Cop really does give the opposite vibes of someone trying to bait the night kill.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:24 am
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:59 pm Whp would Guillotine's partner be if they were wolf? I was thinking it had to be Epignosis, but does anyone have meta on Epignosis to know if they tend to bus this hard day 2?
He is obviously not jailkeeper, he is baiting the night kill.

So you think Epignosis is Vanilla Town trying to bait a night kill by trying to go hard into tunneling the Cop claim? I don't see that world.

Also your point that discussing claims is not a part of Mafia and shouldn't be done is just wrong. While yes anyone can claim whatever we can still look into the claims. It's quite obvious everyone is being serious with their claims right now since you and Epignosis are not backing down and me and Seanzie both have some mechanical evidence to having some power role. It's not metaing the host to speculate about claims or potential setup.

That aside your world here that Seanzie is a Mafia Vigilante and Epignosis is a gamethrowing Vanilla Town is something I disagree with and is far less healthy of a discussion to be making. I can agree that Vigilante could be Mafia, but I don't like your accusation of Epignosis as it's pretty uncharitable. If anything both would be Mafia in the world there is a Mafia Vigilante if you are actually what you claim to be. I see no reason not to kill one of you and Epignosis here, Epignosis is effectively presenting an argument that the two of your roles cannot both exist and I fail to see how you reach the conclusion that is Town if you aren't lying.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:46 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:43 pm I still do think Epi is just telling the truth over Guillotine though. Especially since Guillotine was so adamant that claiming day 1 meant that anyone who CCd them day 2 would be confirmed evil as though they were preparing for the counter claim beforehand.
Then...

why...

won't...

you...

vote...

Guillotine?

There's no hammers, we're not in a rush atm. I do still want to here Guillotine's response to your claim.

Though yeah, I suppose I can just vote. It doesn't really matter when.

[VOTE: Guillotine] aubergine

Maybe I should just stop posting the deranged conspiracy theories in my head. Clearly is just confuses the sane people of this world.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:39 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:34 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:24 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:21 pm So the problem I'm having in my head is that it feels like one of Guillotine and Epignosis are lying. Setupwise both being true seems highly unlikely.
What reason do I have to lie, and what is my endgame scenario if I did?
I mean if you are lying here the scenario would just be as follows.

You fake claim (or maybe really are a Mafia Jailkeeper idk) with the intent to out a real Parity Cop.
Of course this is pretty much a 1 for 1 between you two so you'd be executed day 3 after Guillotine is outed.
Then we would just wind up in an endgame where it's 2 Town and 1 Mafia, that Mafia being whoever your partner is

There is certainly reason to do what you are doing as a wolf.

Of course there is the tinfoil world where you are wolf and Guillotine is your partner you are doing some big brain plays claiming a role that basically just mechanically CCs the mere existence of your partner's fake claim. In that case, I would say well done that's a good play I wouldn't have expected.
I'm having a hard time following this. How would Epi's claim out a "real parity cop" and if Guillo isn't real, why would he be town, and why would you expect another parity cop? I also don't really get the motive - Epi hasn't been a hot topic, so this play only makes sense if Epi's partner is Guillo, but then outing a real parity cop would blow the whole plan up.

It was the hypothetical of Epi fake claiming. I was just saying in that world Epi would have to be fake claiming because they believe Guillotine is a Parity Cop (real in this context is being used to say Guillotine is not lying).

To be clear it's not what I believe is going on here. I guess I should have used sarcasm or something, but it was mostly a half joking response to Epi saying there would be no world where they were lying and I was just giving a world where it could be possible. I still do think Epi is just telling the truth over Guillotine though. Especially since Guillotine was so adamant that claiming day 1 meant that anyone who CCd them day 2 would be confirmed evil as though they were preparing for the counter claim beforehand.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:36 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:34 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:24 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:21 pm So the problem I'm having in my head is that it feels like one of Guillotine and Epignosis are lying. Setupwise both being true seems highly unlikely.
What reason do I have to lie, and what is my endgame scenario if I did?
I mean if you are lying here the scenario would just be as follows.

You fake claim (or maybe really are a Mafia Jailkeeper idk) with the intent to out a real Parity Cop.
Of course this is pretty much a 1 for 1 between you two so you'd be executed day 3 after Guillotine is outed.
Then we would just wind up in an endgame where it's 2 Town and 1 Mafia, that Mafia being whoever your partner is

There is certainly reason to do what you are doing as a wolf.

Of course there is the tinfoil world where you are wolf and Guillotine is your partner you are doing some big brain plays claiming a role that basically just mechanically CCs the mere existence of your partner's fake claim. In that case, I would say well done that's a good play I wouldn't have expected.
Or, I don't know. Crazy idea here. Wild ass crazy idea. I just kill Guillotine and nip that in the bud.

Hey, you asked for the world where you were fake claiming. I was just giving the world. Don't shoot the conspiracy theorist.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:30 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:11 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:07 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:56 pm So here's a thought. There is 7 people alive, 4 of which are claiming a Power Role.

We could shoot into the 3 non-Power claims to try and kill a Mafia Goon (At least I highly doubt Mafia would get 2 Power Roles and there be only 2 Town-aligned Power Role). Although this does rely on at least 3 of the Power Role clams to be Town.

How likely does everyone think there would only be 3 Power Roles? Making it so 2 of the claims are real and 2 of the claims are Mafia Goon + Mafia Power Role?

If we do trust there is at least 3 Power Roles for Town in the setup there is statistically a stronger chance of killing a Mafia Goon in S~V~S, MR, and Falcon than shooting one of the Power Roles. It's not foolproof by any means, but an idea.
Most heists I've played have been 2 town PRs with 1 mafia PR, and usually are 13ers or bigger. I know the site recently relaxed the heist standards, so I'm not sure what to expect, but even 4 PRs in a 10er feels weird. Regardless, I'mma vote for who I think is most likely mafia, claims considered.
That's kind of why I was wondering. 4 claims with 2 being unconformable felt a bit weird. Do you think it's possible 2 Mafia are claiming a Power Role right now?
Possible? Yes. Likely? That's harder to tell. I think Guillo is just outed at this point, and if I GTH I'd say you and Epi are probably fine. Epi's claim is just straight up weird if coming from scum - it was completely unnecessary, he was under no heat, his claim is the sort of "bad" that actually looks good, etc. My one issue with Epi is that if he is a disruptive role, it would be a good counter to my own role, but the way he's playing it is... well... If he is mafia here, his claim is working. I've already mentioned my tinfoil of you, but I don't feel the need to chase that with bigger fish out there. I'm noting this though for if Guillo flips wolf.

Yeah the unpromptedness of the claim does lean credence towards Epi being the legit one of the two.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:24 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:21 pm So the problem I'm having in my head is that it feels like one of Guillotine and Epignosis are lying. Setupwise both being true seems highly unlikely.
What reason do I have to lie, and what is my endgame scenario if I did?

I mean if you are lying here the scenario would just be as follows.

You fake claim (or maybe really are a Mafia Jailkeeper idk) with the intent to out a real Parity Cop.
Of course this is pretty much a 1 for 1 between you two so you'd be executed day 3 after Guillotine is outed.
Then we would just wind up in an endgame where it's 2 Town and 1 Mafia, that Mafia being whoever your partner is

There is certainly reason to do what you are doing as a wolf.

Of course there is the tinfoil world where you are wolf and Guillotine is your partner you are doing some big brain plays claiming a role that basically just mechanically CCs the mere existence of your partner's fake claim. In that case, I would say well done that's a good play I wouldn't have expected.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:13 pm Oh dear lord. A power role doesn't mean you're a civilian. Claiming that doesn't mean anything.

I claimed because I fucked up.

I know that. I'm saying that I'm trying to think about role dynamics.

Honestly the more I think about it the more Parity Cop does seem like the odd one out here. Vigilante + Jailkeeper makes sense to both be in the game regardless of either their alignments since Jailkeeper can stop the Vigilante kill in 2 ways.

But Parity Cop and Jailkeeper/Roleblocker seem to fundamentally not coexist IMO. Roleblocking a Parity Cop is just so extremely punishing that I don't see a world where there is a Parity Cop and a Roleblocking role of any kind, even if it were a Mafia Jailkeeper/Roleblocker. I've seen Cops + Roleblockers, but Parity Cop gets doubly screwed over by it, plus Guillotine is claiming a further limitation beyond being susceptible to a Night 1 Jailkeep.

So the problem I'm having in my head is that it feels like one of Guillotine and Epignosis are lying. Setupwise both being true seems highly unlikely.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:07 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:56 pm So here's a thought. There is 7 people alive, 4 of which are claiming a Power Role.

We could shoot into the 3 non-Power claims to try and kill a Mafia Goon (At least I highly doubt Mafia would get 2 Power Roles and there be only 2 Town-aligned Power Role). Although this does rely on at least 3 of the Power Role clams to be Town.

How likely does everyone think there would only be 3 Power Roles? Making it so 2 of the claims are real and 2 of the claims are Mafia Goon + Mafia Power Role?

If we do trust there is at least 3 Power Roles for Town in the setup there is statistically a stronger chance of killing a Mafia Goon in S~V~S, MR, and Falcon than shooting one of the Power Roles. It's not foolproof by any means, but an idea.
Most heists I've played have been 2 town PRs with 1 mafia PR, and usually are 13ers or bigger. I know the site recently relaxed the heist standards, so I'm not sure what to expect, but even 4 PRs in a 10er feels weird. Regardless, I'mma vote for who I think is most likely mafia, claims considered.

That's kind of why I was wondering. 4 claims with 2 being unconformable felt a bit weird. Do you think it's possible 2 Mafia are claiming a Power Role right now?

I actually can see a world where MR votes Guillotine day 1 without going full bus mode making a hard accusation.

Guillotine's push onto MR "perspective slipping" when all MR did was imply they Town read me and SVS did feel odd and could actually just be more distancing.

The other option IMO would have to be falcon who voted on neither SVS or Guillotine's wagon taking a neutral stance to the scenario.

Whp would Guillotine's partner be if they were wolf? I was thinking it had to be Epignosis, but does anyone have meta on Epignosis to know if they tend to bus this hard day 2?

So here's a thought. There is 7 people alive, 4 of which are claiming a Power Role.

We could shoot into the 3 non-Power claims to try and kill a Mafia Goon (At least I highly doubt Mafia would get 2 Power Roles and there be only 2 Town-aligned Power Role). Although this does rely on at least 3 of the Power Role clams to be Town.

How likely does everyone think there would only be 3 Power Roles? Making it so 2 of the claims are real and 2 of the claims are Mafia Goon + Mafia Power Role?

If we do trust there is at least 3 Power Roles for Town in the setup there is statistically a stronger chance of killing a Mafia Goon in S~V~S, MR, and Falcon than shooting one of the Power Roles. It's not foolproof by any means, but an idea.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:38 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:32 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:59 pm
Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:43 pm And if Seanzie is town, it is obvious Seanzie is the vig, who is voting me because i cannot be a pr with him according to his beliefs.

@Seanzie

This is why i townread you yesterday but i dont care about keeping your secret no more! So why did you kill Wilgy if you scum read me yesterday?
Well, looks like the cat's out of the bag.

I don't believe you townread me for that yesterday. I was/am legit busy with the start of the semester, and would have low-posted regardless of my role. I didn't shoot you because I thought it was better to see if you'd self-resolve, and you AtE'd in a way that made me really doubt my read on you. I thought about shooting SVS, but I kinda believed how they were willing to throw themselves under the bus to save a claimed PR. Wilgy OTOH is someone who can snow town single-handedly, and in the world where I was wrong on you, I thought they were most likely wolf.

How did you know I shot Wilgy and not Michelle?
You know I looked at both night kills, saw you were scum reading them both, then just wrote you down as Vigilante lol. I didn't think you'd actually claim it though.
I didn't scumread either yesterday? I only decided on Wilgy after deliberating during night. I didn't feel good about shooting at the obvious choices (Guillo/SVS), so I looked into Wilgy and decided to shoot him.

Sorry, I noted down you questioned them both for RVSing with you at the start of day one, but for some reason colored the note red so I mistook it for a scum read.

I will say a 2-shot Parity Cop (even though Guillotine never claimed their limitation) isn't completely unheard of and impossible. It'd be mostly as a just in case limitation not really because the host would ever expect them to be getting 3 checks off.

But a Night 1 Jailkeeper is an interesting claim in the setup that we know so far. There'd be 8 targets for night 1 (assuming you can't just jail yourself), with 2 killers and 2 kills that is about a 50% chance to prevent a death Night 1. Which is actually kind of believable. Although I'm not sure about a Parity Cop alongside a Night 1 Jailkeeper, Parity Cop already has a hard enough time getting 2 checks off, a roleblock in the mix to completely shut it down is almost unfair IMO.

It's possible Guillotine is a Role Cop and Epignosis is telling the truth. It's also possible Epignosis is lying about not using their ability and is just a Roleblocker who hit a non-Power Role night 1. There could still be an unclaimed Power Role somewhere, but I think we've checked all the boxes with a protective/roleblock claim, a information claim, a vote manipulation claim, and a killing claim. I would be surprised if we don't have a town-aligned investigative role to be honest and the fact Guillotine isn't being CCd though does point towards them being legitimate.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:59 pm
Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:43 pm And if Seanzie is town, it is obvious Seanzie is the vig, who is voting me because i cannot be a pr with him according to his beliefs.

@Seanzie

This is why i townread you yesterday but i dont care about keeping your secret no more! So why did you kill Wilgy if you scum read me yesterday?
Well, looks like the cat's out of the bag.

I don't believe you townread me for that yesterday. I was/am legit busy with the start of the semester, and would have low-posted regardless of my role. I didn't shoot you because I thought it was better to see if you'd self-resolve, and you AtE'd in a way that made me really doubt my read on you. I thought about shooting SVS, but I kinda believed how they were willing to throw themselves under the bus to save a claimed PR. Wilgy OTOH is someone who can snow town single-handedly, and in the world where I was wrong on you, I thought they were most likely wolf.

How did you know I shot Wilgy and not Michelle?

You know I looked at both night kills, saw you were scum reading them both, then just wrote you down as Vigilante lol. I didn't think you'd actually claim it though.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:24 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:58 pm
Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:51 pm I was not questioning cat getting yeeted organically but if you had something to do with it through mechanics, you must get killed even though cat was in my poe.
Question. Why not use your Cop check on me then and out SVS? You were already putting SVS at the top of your wolf reads end of yesterday. I killed another one of your wolf reads.

My alignment is not really contingent on SVS's alignment. If they are a wolf then I could easily be a mislead Town or their Mafia partner

I do not agree that if i were a Mafia Doublevoter I would out today or even entertain the idea I could be one. I would just have staid silent and made it seem like SVS was a Doublevoter.

I think that, from the perspective of a Parity Cop, going for me over SVS does not make a whole lot of sense. Why go after the Power Role claim? When Power Roles are great people to check as a Cop of any kind and I don't see how you refuse to entertain the idea I could be Town who accidentally saved a wolf.
Because it is not your call to decide the lynch for us.

It was obvious there were double voting shenanigans and maybe you thought that playing along makes you look goid because scum wouldnt do that, that is why you'd perceive it'd work.

I believe that if yoy are a wolf, you saved SvS to associate him with you. So no, if you are scum SvS is actually town.

I disagree, I'm pretty sure it was my call.

Jokes aside, I understand your frustration of not having your vote preference go through, but at the end of the day somebody was executed and I was quite clear I did not agree with the "consensus". It was only a very slim majority of 1 vote anyways, so it's really not like I was going completely rogue and trying to execute someone that nobody was wolf reading.

I personally treat the ability as if I dayvigged Cat and there was a forced no execution because of it. We still have the votes of yesterday and I think that's more than enough to draw conclusions from.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:51 pm I was not questioning cat getting yeeted organically but if you had something to do with it through mechanics, you must get killed even though cat was in my poe.

Question. Why not use your Cop check on me then and out SVS? You were already putting SVS at the top of your wolf reads end of yesterday. I killed another one of your wolf reads.

My alignment is not really contingent on SVS's alignment. If they are a wolf then I could easily be a mislead Town or their Mafia partner

I do not agree that if i were a Mafia Doublevoter I would out today or even entertain the idea I could be one. I would just have staid silent and made it seem like SVS was a Doublevoter.

I think that, from the perspective of a Parity Cop, going for me over SVS does not make a whole lot of sense. Why go after the Power Role claim? When Power Roles are great people to check as a Cop of any kind and I don't see how you refuse to entertain the idea I could be Town who accidentally saved a wolf.

We can argue all day that I should have just guessed one of the Mafia instead of guessing a Vanilla Townie. I don't think it's productive.

What's done is done, I think solve from there is more productive than what could have been.

If you actually believe me to be a Mafia Doublevoter though, I think you should kill my only likely partner SVS instead.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:40 pm PoE

SvS
Cat
Wilgy
LP

If chopping through does not win the game we are fucked

Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:32 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:32 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:11 am I have a bit of tinfoil that LP is something like a double-voter rather than just controlling the elim, but the way they were telegraphing at EoD yesterday doesn't fit super well with that. In a mafia!LP world though, the fact that they went for Cat strongly suggests one of SVS or Guillo would be their partner, and looking at their ISO, they took both SVS and Guillo off the table, so meh, I guess that makes sense.
That's a fair take. I'm fine if people want to put me down as a Doublevoter instead. It's pretty much mechanically speaking not different given I decided not to go with a vanity wagon.

But honestly I wanted my top suspicion dead and I would rather be conflated with a Doblevoter than have voted on something like SVS or Guillotine and just be assumed to have been a Vanilla by burying my ability to make it impossible to tell something was up. Especially since, if it's not obvious, my ability goes away after day 1 and I'd have no way to even attempt to try and prove I was at any point a Power Role (baring Town Role Cop which is almost never actually added to games).
@Master Radishes tjey didnt bother to contest it

Just because I said I agree the two roles are mechanically indistinguishable doesn't mean I'm claiming it. I mean if we really are being pedantic SVS could have been a role that redirects the execute away from them.

JJJ did not state any reason why Cat was executed other than they just were.

I think there is enough evidence that I'm not a Doublevoter with the game flavor being based on civilization, a king-like role makes sense and I thought was thematically quite funny. Also the fact I was very much saying that I had full faith Cat was going to be executed day 1. But I really do not think it is important to debate or speculate over what exactly I did day 1, so that's why I'm fine being called a Doublevoter. Regardless I have only a single vote today so it quite literally makes no difference in my eyes.

I would rather you attempt to push me out of a genuine scum read though and not just because I "went against the majority" when my ability quite literally tells me to go against the will of the majority to maximize it's value. As I said I think my decision was a good one, you even agreed at the end of day 1 that Cat was in PoE. I do not think you are in a position to criticize me for killing Cat because as far as I am aware I more or less had permission since Wilgy was the only one I saw speaking out against the possibility of Cat being evil.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:29 pm If linearpoint is a double voter and went against the concensus, they must be eliminated. They went against the will of the majority

No real offense or anything, but if you actually believe I am Mafia why would you suddenly be Town reading SVS today?

Heck by your logic we might as well execute the Vigilante today too since they clearly also killed a Town.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:01 am *waiting for everyone to realize there is no way we have a pairity cop, a vig, and someone who controls the D1 elim in a 10er*

The conclusion I've reached is that I think Vigilante could realistically be either alignment in a 10P game. Without a Vigilante the game goes to 4v2 naturally if Town does not hit a Mafia for the first 2 days, so a Vigilante doesn't really throw off balance regardless of their alignment. That being said Mafia Vigilante would imply we have some really strong Town Roles that Mafia might want sniped. With my role being a D1 role that can't be prevented by a Vig shot beforehand and the other power role being claimed is a Parity Cop with a limitation I don't know if I'd consider us to have strong Town roles Mafia could vig.

And about that Parity Cop limitation. I'm quite curious as to what they claim it to be since Parity Cop (in my opinion) is by far the weakest Cop variant already. They already need to survive 2 days and nights to get their info and by that point it could easily be too late, doubly so if it turns out that the Vigilante is not limited in their shots.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:11 am I have a bit of tinfoil that LP is something like a double-voter rather than just controlling the elim, but the way they were telegraphing at EoD yesterday doesn't fit super well with that. In a mafia!LP world though, the fact that they went for Cat strongly suggests one of SVS or Guillo would be their partner, and looking at their ISO, they took both SVS and Guillo off the table, so meh, I guess that makes sense.

That's a fair take. I'm fine if people want to put me down as a Doublevoter instead. It's pretty much mechanically speaking not different given I decided not to go with a vanity wagon.

But honestly I wanted my top suspicion dead and I would rather be conflated with a Doblevoter than have voted on something like SVS or Guillotine and just be assumed to have been a Vanilla by burying my ability to make it impossible to tell something was up. Especially since, if it's not obvious, my ability goes away after day 1 and I'd have no way to even attempt to try and prove I was at any point a Power Role (baring Town Role Cop which is almost never actually added to games).

I just don't know if I really think that wolves would just allow their partner to die that early and without a fight when it was not that hard of a lift form their perspective.

Heck SVS even was willing to die in place of a Parity Cop claim. It's really just the fact that there is no realistic partner for SVS and SVS's unwillingness to lift the vote off of themselves and onto Guillotine is Townie.

I guess, let me put it this way. Wolf!SVS almost certainly just suicides onto Guillotine in that scenario. They were dead to rights if my role was not in the game and they may as well take out the Cop with them.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:21 am Going back to this for a moment,

LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:01 am Cat: LinearPoint, S~V~S, falconca45
Guilltione: Cat, DrWilgy, Seanzie
S~V~S: Michelle, Master Radishes, Guillotine, Epignosis

I cannot for the life of me find a valid partner for S~V~S, so I don't think they are a wolf.

Falcon and Guillotine were both active EoD and neither made any effort to try and get the vote to go away from S~V~S. Falcon could easily just not unvoted Guillotine and Guillotine could have easily voted Cat instead.
Seanzie also made no effort to switch off Guillotine when it was becoming clear S~V~S was going to be the next target to be up for execution.
Epignosis actively wanted to keep their vote on S~V~S over Guillotine.
Only MR comes up as a potential candidate who just could not make EoD to unvote their partner, but I don't see that as a very likely world.
I like your line of reasoning, but I'm not sure we can discount SVS too quickly. In a 2p scum team they're both going to be really concious of not being associated, and I could see that affecting how a scum partner plays around w!SVS in this sort of EoD scenario. E.g. Seanzie not having the threadpull to change things, or Falcon starting the Cat wagon to try a new tact of saving SVS, or MR panic bussing then falling asleep. I'd need to go back and re-read, though.

I agree that Epi is not paired with SVS, and Guillo is not the type of wolf partner to bus when there is a clear counterwagon (Cat) available. So options are limited, at least.

I do agree. Like I said I think if it is SVS then it's probably Falcon or Seanzie, but neither really seemed concerned for SVS at all. I mean obviously Mafia don't have to try and save their teammate. But SVS was getting majorly distanced if they are a wolf.

To be honest I was debating for a long time if outing was a better play, but in the end I decided to wait and see how EoD wagon dynamics played out and just stuck to my gut choice.

I ended up just hinting at it, but did have a little fun with a few of the lines. It was very hard to not say "I'm not worried" when Michelle was panicking over a 3 way tie though.

Which the fact that Guillotine both openly claimed that they missed my claim and are trying to push me when (imo) my role can't ever be Mafia in a 10p setup they are probably just Mafia who didn't realize they made a horrible choice in push target for day 2.

Granted I was expecting to die in the night since I see no real world where Mafia can successfully argue that a Mafia was given the ability to dictate the D1 execution.

But I am thinking they missed the telegraphed kill and shot in the dark.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:57 am
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:31 am 1) It's painfully obvious how Cat died.
I wasn't very present for D1 and was sleep deprived when I was, so I don't know what happened either. Feel free to explain, if it's painfully obvious enough that everyone else knows.

I telegraphed quite heavily that I was going to be executing Cat day 1 in hopes that if Cat flipped Mafia if there was a Doc they would know to be on me. Vigilante obviously understood, otherwise they might have attempted to shoot into the Cat wagon.

I put things more clearly though. There was no votes for S~V~S yesterday. I was the only player Day 1 with any voting power.

Obviously I did missfire slightly, but I think we can all be given 1 free pass a game. I still standby my decision though, Cat was top of my wolf reads, and Epignosis voting off of Guillotine at the end makes them seem like wolf partners together. So I do thin kit was a successful use of my ability in the end.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:34 am Those two kills point at me as having motivation to kill them as they both pushed me together.

Which means scum went for WIFOM route.

This is gonna be my assumption if the vig shot is not claimed.

In my opinion Linear is scum with TMI and I don't think Linear comes here saying all wagons are were town in an organic way but it spews SVS town.

So the remaining scum is out my PoE from yesterday.

Your intro to today looks very staged frankly.

1) It's painfully obvious how Cat died.

2) The kills don't point to you at all, if anything they point to MR.

3) WIFOM makes no sense. There was 2 outed Town Power Roles, I don't see why Mafia would WIFOM in that situation. They only WIFOM in the world where you are Mafia, know that the other Power Role was legit and were worried they'd be protected by a Doctor over you.

4) I don't think you know what TMI means. I'm actually not confident you know what WIFOM means either given the context you just used it in frankly.

It's quite hard to imagine a world where you aren't just Mafia who failed to notice the reason for Cat's death and made a poor night kill choice because of it. And now just trying to argue it was WIFOM because you want to save some face.

Cat: LinearPoint, S~V~S, falconca45
Guilltione: Cat, DrWilgy, Seanzie
S~V~S: Michelle, Master Radishes, Guillotine, Epignosis

I cannot for the life of me find a valid partner for S~V~S, so I don't think they are a wolf.

Falcon and Guillotine were both active EoD and neither made any effort to try and get the vote to go away from S~V~S. Falcon could easily just not unvoted Guillotine and Guillotine could have easily voted Cat instead.
Seanzie also made no effort to switch off Guillotine when it was becoming clear S~V~S was going to be the next target to be up for execution.
Epignosis actively wanted to keep their vote on S~V~S over Guillotine.
Only MR comes up as a potential candidate who just could not make EoD to unvote their partner, but I don't see that as a very likely world.

The only world I can see where Guillotine is a wolf here is if exactly Epignosis is their partner doing some theater EoD vote switching between Guillotine and S~V~S. Or if MR is just silently supporting Guillotine from the sidelines.
Everyone else had pretty ample opportunity to not allow Guillotine to even potentially be put up for a tied vote which they very nearly were put to 4.

I don't think a wolf was being voted at the end of day 1. I also think this means that the two wolves did not vote on the same wagon because they did not really need to.
Epignosis looks good for not choosing to put the Cop claim to 4 (unless like I said they are partners with Guillotine).
So 2 wolves in falcon, MR, and Seanzie.

Which I think MR is a wolf here with the N1 deaths. Even though it's not clear which was shot by Mafia and which was shot by a Vig, I think MR shooting either of them as a wolf makes sense with MR town lean reading both in #357. On that same coin Seanzie was questioning both Wilgy and Michelle for joining in their RVS of Guillotine so I don't really see why wolf!Seanzie would want either of them dead. Falcon has given off town vibes for a long while, I do not think they can only be wolf if I am right and Guillotine and S~V~S are both Town but Falcon not dying last night to Mafia is not what I expected with them being pretty universally town read; it should have been a nobrainer shot to just kill falcon and hope you killed the Power Role between me, Falcon, and S~V~S.

That's about all I can do for late night start of day theory crafting. That's my take on things. I'll sleep and see if I can come up with other possible worlds.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:57 pm Y'all saw Michelle in here bullying me. Just sayin'.

Aw, don't worry about it Epignosis.

I'm content with my choice for today's execution.

It's times like these I sit back and think to myself that I'd make for a terrible dayvig who's contemplating shoting one of the 3 top wagons in the last 30 minutes.

Michelle wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:20 pm 3 tied wagons of 3 players, one cop claim, one low active and our dear SVS.

Is this dead air dead villager?

I doubt it.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:50 pm As much as I've shit on Guillotine, this is not a Day 1 lynch. You have:

-A highly active participant
-A claim
-A blatant disregard for self-preservation despite the claim
-Lots of people doing nothing

If Guillotine is mafia, lynch the partner. Who is the partner?

The problem with a Guillotine Mafia flip is mainly that a Mafia not voting them can just say "oh I didn't want to execute the Cop claim."
Seanzie I doubt is Mafia with Guillotine because the vote park is odd when they had an easy out.
Cat, maybe since Guillotine doesn't want Cat executed. Cat hasn't been on since Guillotine's claim, but I don't know if Cat puts their partner to 4 and just leaves to not return.
Wilgy has been on Guillotine all day, the only way that is Mafia is if they could not reach EoD to get their RVS vote off their partner.
I think Falcon looks town reguardless of a Guillotine flip.
SVS looks pretty good if Guillotine is Mafia with their earlier interactions.

I think realistically a Mafia!Guillotine means that it could be anyone not SVS, Seanzie, Cat, or Falcon.
Most likely? I would go with MR because of their response to the Cop claim being lackluster and their read on Guillotine early being a long, kind of waffly town lean read.

Actually I think I crossed a few wires. Falcon was talking about Michelle being aggro.

The early wagon on Guillotine was for not being aggro, while WIlgy was claiming they normally are as Town.
Cat then said that Guillotine was sus for getting more active after getting 3 votes.

I do still find it to be a bit opportunistic since Guillotine was getting a lot of heat for being slightly passive and they gave even more heat for Guillotine become more active.
It's a lose/lose argument for Guillotine as Guillotine gets sussed reguardless of what they do. It doesn't seem to me like someone trying to find the truth and more trying to back Guillotine into a corner.

But wait, does that mean you find Cat's suspicion of you to be a townie perspective normally?

cat wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 12:56 pm
Guillotine wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 10:27 am Actually Michelle is wolfing

[VOTE: Michelle] aubergine

I dont believe you question how 3 wolves would be unbalanced in a game with 10 players
This does not sit well with me. The moment this guy is called out for passivity he amps up the agression and votes the person pushing him? Plus the logic doesn't make sense to me, but that part is just personal preference.

Sus on Guillotine

I would think this seems opportunistic myself as they hopped onto the aggro talk bandwagon fairly quickly.

I guess #532? All Cat's said in regards to SVS is they are a null read. I guess I'd just expect more if you were thinking Cat be hard pushing you to save SVS.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:16 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:12 pm
Guillotine wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:05 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:03 pm
Guillotine wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:02 pm [VOTE: SVS] aubergine

Just in case i didnt

Why not self pres on Cat? You said you're being tunneled by them, why SVS over Cat?
Because my suspicion on Cat is conditional to SvS alignment, if SvS isvtown then it means Cat was not trying to save their partner.
Sorry if I missed it, but what is making you think Cat and SVS are same alignment?
You just quoted the reason LP

Can you explain it to my small brain? I don't follow.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:05 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:03 pm
Guillotine wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:02 pm [VOTE: SVS] aubergine

Just in case i didnt

Why not self pres on Cat? You said you're being tunneled by them, why SVS over Cat?
Because my suspicion on Cat is conditional to SvS alignment, if SvS isvtown then it means Cat was not trying to save their partner.

Sorry if I missed it, but what is making you think Cat and SVS are same alignment?

@Guillotine I would say that I think you just talked yourself into thinking I gaslit you, but I feel like that would somehow fuel your paranoia that I am gaslighting you more.

Either way I'll give you a hug after the game and say I'm sorry if you think I've gaslit you.

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