The Syndicate

@mods

Would I be correct to assume lynches will be plurality based? That is, this ain't a hammer vote game, is it?

Can we give an evolution point to ourselves?



@Everyone else

I don't think it's a great idea to give evolution points to ourselves. It will take forever to evolve at that rate. Called evolution votes might be nice...but they paint targets. Thoughts on this mechanic?

That said, I don't really want evolution points. I mean, I am good so giving them to me will ultimately help the town.

It's just that I prefer talking roles like vanilla, bulletproof, mason, note passer, etc. I'd rather live two extra phases and talk as a non evolved Pokémon than gain a power but get killed earlier for it.

Alternatively: I just finished a game as a townie where I managed to save three townies from death and kill two mafia members by using my night power.....but was only batting~ .500 for lynches. Evidence suggests I am better at using a given night action than I am at vanilla scumhunting so...secret evolution points to me are okay.

*squints at the yellow font*

Okay. Thanks, boss.

So who gets my point? Probably someone I think is good with night actions if they are town and someone I think I am good at catching if they are bad.



Boo, I have never played with. No.

DF is a hip fellow but I think the town was OP in his last game for my tastes, which implies an under estimation of night power...power, which may imply limited skill. Maybe not. I have no faith in my ability to catch bad DF.

DDL and I mind melded on some mechanics discussion in Unfortunate Events and while a lot of players scumread him, I felt he was town. Never played with bad DDL. So this is a possibility.

Dizzy thinks outside the box. I bet they can kick butt with powers. I town read Dizzy when we were both good in Phenon. My catching scum Dizzy in Mass Effect was pure POE based on me knowing a lot as opposing scum. Maybe.

Dom I've played with...twice? He broken clocked me in Mass Effect but didn't shoot me even though he was the vig. Town read him with ease. Didn't shoot anybody iirc. Don't really remember him in Blue vs Red. Don't think I've seen a bad Dom. Maybe. Probably not. (Dom, convince me you are good at using night actions.)

Dr Wilgy strikes me as a man of mechanics and of course, wisdom. Couldn't place him as a goodie in...Phenon? Unfortunate Events? He died early in one of those. Town read him strongly in ME. Not sure I could catch baddie Doc. Maybe.

Eloh I have played with several times and I have no faith in my ability to read her. No.

Fred definitely knows how to use Night powers like a pro. I feel like I've done a good job of picking out bad Fred (Hybridity, Phenon) and good Fred (Mass Effect) lately. Might be giving myself too much credit on all three reads considering the timing. This would be a good option.

G-Man, I haven't played with. No.

Long Con is a smart cookie but people have been fucking with him at night a ton lately when we play together, which skews my reads towards scum unfairly. I feel like I legit caught him in Mass Effect and had good feelings about him in Unfortunate Events and bad feelings in Phenom (all correct reads) but in Hybridity, I thought he was bad twice when he was good and let him skate once when he was bad, only catching him when it was too late to stop him from winning. All in all, a good option.

Mac didn't have any follow through on his swing in R vs B. Plus, I'd have scum read the shit out of that if I didn't know he wasn't scum and I've never seen a bad Mac. No.

Never played with Never. No.

Nut is pretty good with the night actions. I feel like I have a decent ability to read her, picking her as town in Phenon and watching her mafia play closely in ME. Another good choice.

Speed's good some night chops I bet. Comes from that sorta site and talks a leg up on your average Syndicater. I'm kinda crap at reading him, though. Probably not.

Sprityo I can't read that well. Plus, he might have caught "never trust Jack" disease, which is hard to cure. No.

Timer and Tink I don't think I've played with.

Tony is a ballin nightmaster, like Fred. I've played with him a bunch but he's almost always been good. I've been sure we were town together a few times but totally misread him a few. Strong choice.




So probably Fred, LC, Tony, Nut. Maybe Doc, Diz or DDL.



Feel free to throw all this friendly judgement back in my face. I've certainly messed up in enough games for it.

I think Dizzy is town.

I love the idea of picking six people to get powers and forcing votes above board. Six people getting powers seems better than probably none, maybe one or two.

I anticipate some people not wanting to play along. I hope townies will recognize that doing this halfway would be the worst of both worlds. Less powers given out and also pinpoint where the powers are.

DDL, which is better, having 6 powers but the mafia knows where they are or having no powers?

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:15 am I have a question tho: how do we know mafia is keeping their side of the bargain? Are votes public?

If we want them to be.

If you me and Dizzy say we vote for Nutella and Nutella doesn't have a power, we know there is a baddie between the four of us.

Muh linki is borken

G-Man wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:10 pm I like this whole trying to break the game open and looking for tactical advantage. Reminds me of the old days. Question for you big thinkers- if we pile up 3 evolution votes on a player who is mafia, what's to stop them from saying, "Hey, yeah, I evolved," when they didn't?

Also, if this plan goes through, you should probably try to mandate people not just alternate between the same people if they're still alive. In theory, a baddie could just switch back and forth between their teammates if two baddies wind up in the evolution pool.

Why wouldn't the bad guys evolve?

Mewtwo would lie, yeah, but the plan is designed to enpower the town, not catch the serial killer.

boo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:18 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:33 am

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:15 am I have a question tho: how do we know mafia is keeping their side of the bargain? Are votes public?

If we want them to be.

If you me and Dizzy say we vote for Nutella and Nutella doesn't have a power, we know there is a baddie between the four of us.

No. There are roles that can't evolve. And why the four of you? LA not getting a power when three other people supposedly voted for her would say nothing about her alignment.

There is one town role that doesn't evolve and one indy. They'll just lie in that situation. Nbd.

Why did I choose those four? Cause they were the last four to post.

Why would one of those four be bad in that scenario? Cause either DDL, Diz or me didn't really evolve Nut or Nut is lying about not evolving. Ergo, one of the four (at least) is bad.

Im actually Ditto, Indy.

Every day I choose a player and have to copy things they say. Today, I'm Dizzy but with a different face.

(This is not an actual roleclaim.)

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:48 pm I also don't think we have time to organize, but what if we bias the game to get role powers for people?

Like, form a pool of six-ish candidates and encourage people to throw their points into that pool?

This is a good idea.


I submit the pool as: Fred, Tony, LC, Nutella, Speed.

Not that scared of evolving baddies.

So many baddie powers are damn near wasted in almost vanilla. Block, misdirect, doctor, frame, power cop, janitor....who cares? Only silencing and vote manipulation is roughly as dangerous as a town cop or doc or block.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:40 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:02 pm Not that scared of evolving baddies.

So many baddie powers are damn near wasted in almost vanilla. Block, misdirect, doctor, frame, power cop, janitor....who cares? Only silencing and vote manipulation is roughly as dangerous as a town cop or doc or block.

Block can be used to shut down one of those evolved town roles we are telegraphing to mafia.

Redirect is unrealiable but can be incredibly potent if it gets to redirect a kill.

Doctor depends if we have kills. But at the very least, it protects them from mewtwo.

Janitor is a key role in games where claiming is allowed (not the case).

Power cop is really good. It buffs the abilities mentioned above.

Framer is situational, I agree.

Which is better?

Creating a townie cop and a mafia blocker to block him?

Or leaving both vanilla?

I'm not seeing the downside. Most mafia powers are for dealing with town powers....that we won't have if we don't coordinate.

Any given townie power baring vote manipulation can potentially catch a baddie or stop a kill. The mafia has a power to mess up no matter what we do.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:50 pm This is not about downside. I just dont want to see people going around saying all mafia roles are useless, because thats a downright terrible tactical mistake. We need to be taking them into consideration as we make those plans.

A cop among six players is hard to be blocked, so yeah its better. But reading you say a mafia roleblocker is useless is giving me shivers.

It's not useless.

It's the risk of creating one that is by far outweighed by the strong of gaining town powers.

Scumread: DDL

G-Man wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:26 pm I'm not fine with putting such a strategy together based solely on one person's preferences. If Jack wants a list, let's all submit five or six names and select the ones that appear the most. If the plan can indeed thumb the scale in our favor, then it's too important to be nonchalant about picking names.

Describe a scenario where I cause us to give powers to 3-5 players and the outcome is worse than if we all just vote for whoever and nobody gets a power.

It is far too late in the day for your plan.

DFaraday wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:02 pm

G-Man wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:26 pm I'm not fine with putting such a strategy together based solely on one person's preferences. If Jack wants a list, let's all submit five or six names and select the ones that appear the most. If the plan can indeed thumb the scale in our favor, then it's too important to be nonchalant about picking names.

I agree. I don't even know some of the people on Jack's list. Although I'm really not crazy about this plan, since there's every chance we could end up empowering one or more baddies, who then will immediately take out their fellow power roles. Furthermore, if Mew/Mewtwo are part of the Oceanic Six, we'll spend the game funneling points into a black hole.

I think it might be more effective to allot points this round to a group of six, as suggested, then rotate on future rounds so that other players can get powers. Granted, this strategy pretty much ensures giving Mafia powers, but it would also keep an array of civvie powers in play even if Mafia start NKing power roles.

Okay. So we might empower a bad guy and give them a block or frame or whatever so they can impede town rolls....how is this worse than just letting the town all be vanilla?

So we might funnel a bunch of points into a Mew and nobody gets a power. How is this worse than tossing points about at random and nobody gets a power?

G-Man wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:56 pm I don't have any reads, so I don't trust anyone at this point. It's an intriguing idea if it is carried out democratically. Jack's arbitrary list just doesn't sit well with me. That's not a knock against Jack; just a knock against arbitrary lists.

Why do you think my list is arbitrary?

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:55 pm I was trying to get us to decide on a list by democracy.

Now we are all forced to follow jack's list. Assuming this coordination thing still has a chance to work.

I feel like we were already forced by the clock.

Democracy is fine for the next round of evo points.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:21 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:17 pm

G-Man wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:56 pm I don't have any reads, so I don't trust anyone at this point. It's an intriguing idea if it is carried out democratically. Jack's arbitrary list just doesn't sit well with me. That's not a knock against Jack; just a knock against arbitrary lists.

Why do you think my list is arbitrary?

Because you decided it on your own. That's the definition or arbitrary.

Arbitrary - Based on randomness or personal whim.

My list is not arbitrary.

I gave my point to Tony.

Coordinating beforehand is good. Forcing the mafia to admit who they picked or lie so they can't just give points to their teammates with zero risk is better.

@DDL

Do YOU think coordination is a good idea?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:55 am

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:59 pm
This is a good idea.

I submit the pool as: Fred, Tony, LC, Nutella, Speed.

Why not me, the only one you've expressed to think is town?

G-Man wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:26 pmI'm not fine with putting such a strategy together based solely on one person's preferences. If Jack wants a list, let's all submit five or six names and select the ones that appear the most. If the plan can indeed thumb the scale in our favor, then it's too important to be nonchalant about picking names.

Yeah, it shouldn't be because of one person's preference, it should be more consensus. All in all, coordinating D0 votes in a reasonable way wasn't going to happen with so little time and many players not showing up. We could do it N1.

Cause you told me you didn't want points.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:26 am

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:39 pm @DDL

Do YOU think coordination is a good idea?

Yes

Yeah?

Cause you keep arguing against it. This is why I think you are bad.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:08 am @Dizzy

From experience, whatever night powers mafia gets from evolution will probably pale in comparison to the advantage of knowing what the town power roles are and killing them before they can act. So Id rather keep the votes secret.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:13 am Hmm you make a good point, that not doing the public votes will mean we have less powers altogether.

Now Im not sure.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:29 am Well if we can get universal coordination you are right. That gives us a small poll of scum if they choose to betray us.

I will join if such a coordination happens. Right now Im skeptical about it.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:10 pm Boo
Gman
Dizzy
Nutella
Speedchuck
DF

Thats my proposed list. You guys post yours. I propose we make a deadline for it and then everyone sends their votes. Is 3 hours before the end of N0 good enough?

^This is the opposite of coordination this close to the deadline.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:32 pm Oh nvm there are already people saying "fuck consensus" and sending their votes.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:11 pm I suppose the whole cordination thing has been flushed down the toilet, since half of the voters did not say who they were voting for.

Did anyone evolve? Or were told they got points (are we even allowed to reveal those things)?

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:36 pm I mean nothing is stopping us from coordinating this phase tbh but it seems half the players are not interested on it.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:29 am JoH, at what point do you accept something that's half assed? What percent completion?

Can you be more specific?

Accept that it sucks? That it's good enough?

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:32 am

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:24 am

Neverwhere wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:20 am

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:17 am

Neverwhere wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:59 am Well shit, sorry to Nutella who i accidentally lynched. Got confused about what that was.

I panicked for a second, but you only voted for nutella, didn't lynch her. And I think votes are changeable in this game.

You're going to hate me, can you explain the votes to me again? It's amazing how much I've forgotten in 2-3 years. So what is that vote for? Will there be another vote up for the lynch?

It is a vote for the lynch. But just a single vote.

At the deadline on the above poll, the player with the most votes will be lynched. You can change your vote at any time up till then. So it's not really something worth apologizing for. We'll all have votes on us at one point or another.

Speak for yourself.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:51 am

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:29 am JoH, at what point do you accept something that's half assed? What percent completion?

Can you be more specific?

Accept that it sucks? That it's good enough?

At what point do you stop caring when something is not up to your standard? Are ideal situations achievable? is a better question.

Depends on the situation. Evaluation of doable...ness and importance are separate. Spin them together and get how much effort I am willing to put into achieving a given ideal.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:24 am @Jack

1- Agreeing with the concept of coordination =/= agreeing that you unilaterally decide who we vote for and we just follow you.

2- Agreeing =/= not asking questions or considering possible problems and just saying "yes sir" the moment you propose it.

I'm not your slave. And there isn't a contract saying that the moment I agree with your original idea I have to follow everything you say without questioning.

If your definition of "scum" is "does not obey you", then go ahead. Put your vote where your mouth is and vote for me.

How many people agreed we should coordinate our points in some way and how many disagreed with me?

How many people agreed with my specific list and how many disagreed with it?

How many of the people disagreeing with me on one of those points have I said I scumread?

How many people agreeing with me have I said I townread?

This is definitely not about disagreement. It's about inconsistency, the appearance of dishonesty.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:33 pm

I can't argue against your own perception. Do whatever you want.

So you choose a straw man instead? :-/

Fredwood wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:39 pm Hey everyone, My cousin had his birthday yesterday, and I wasn't in a positing state of mind after 6 Whiskey Sours and a couple shots of vodka and a brownie sundae. Will catch up. I had got a few pages in and realized it wasn't Day 0 any longer RIP.

You should try posting to mafia games drunk.

I don't know if it helps but it's fun.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:06 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:38 pm

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:33 pm

I can't argue against your own perception. Do whatever you want.

So you choose a straw man instead? :-/

What strawman?

Youre saying I look dishonest. I can say nothing but shrug. Ive explained everything I did in this game, if you dont believe it there is nothing I can do.

"Jack thinks I am bad because I disagreed with him and won't do as he says. Townies are allowed to disagree."

@Fred

This is the only game I'm in.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:55 pm What is thunderdoming

I take it to mean both of us going all out on the idea that the other should be lynched.

I don't see a good reason for everyone to not at least say who they are giving points to.

If you don't specifically trust anyone putting forth a list enough to follow their lead, that's fine. If we can't get our act together, that's not ideal but it's understandable.

I want to hear reasons players want to hold these cards close to the vest...or cards on the table.



I'll give a point to Dizzy tonight. I think the "I don't want points" thing isn't quite accurate.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:21 pm Nah. I think youre town.

And I dont think you are saying town arent allowed to disagree, but you seem to be under the impression there is a hard limit on how much Im allowed to bicker with you if I say I agree with your idea. There isnt, Ill bicker with you everytime you say something I think its wrong no matter how much Im willing to cooperate with you.

Btw, the ship of coordinating the second round of evolution votes is about to sail too, in case you haven't noticed.

It's more like you say "I agree.....but nobody else does" when people aren't actually saying one thing or the other or "I agree.....but I'm skeptical" without saying why or "I agree......but let's not actually coordinate."

Feels like you don't want the town to coordinate but you don't want to actually argue for that, like you want to appear to be trying to help while actually sabotaging.

This is in contrast to say, DF, who just disagrees.

The main reason I'm not voting for DDL is because he's got so much more content than anyone else, it seems like a really stupid move if I'm town.

A handful of slight pings does not necessarily make someone scum. If everyone was equal and DDL had this many pings, I'd toss down a vote.

As is, that feels like giving free reign to anyone who just coasts. I'd rather end up with scum DDL in the late game and a fair chance to catch him than scum some quiet person that I still won't have a bead on.

G-Man wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:55 pm If there's no way to hold people accountable for their evolution votes, then how exactly is coordinating useful to us anymore? This plan was de-fanged when Epi said we couldn't confirm evolutions.

I guess I missed this. Agreed. Oh well.

I'll try to break the next game, too.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:55 pm The main reason I'm not voting for DDL is because he's got so much more content than anyone else, it seems like a really stupid move if I'm town and he's town.

A handful of slight pings does not necessarily make someone scum. If everyone was equal and DDL had this many pings, I'd toss down a vote.

As is, that feels like giving free reign to anyone who just coasts. I'd rather end up with scum DDL in the late game and a fair chance to catch him than scum some quiet person that I still won't have a bead on.

EBWOP

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm Coordinating is not game-breaking. Sorry Jack.

But I must disagree. Coordinating, even without confirmed results, still provides RESULTS. And that's what we want. We want evolutions to happen. We want Raichus and Venasaur and Charizard and whatever else, I haven't played pokemon.

My daughter's "favorite pokemon" is Ash.

I have opinions on very few players.

Tony, Dom, Mac haven't even posted.

@Fred/LC

Can you explain why that is pingy?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:40 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:42 amCause you told me you didn't want points.

No?

What you actually said was "I prefer VT roles" but then (and I forgot this bit) you went on like "but plz vote for me."

My bad.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:04 pm I think voting for people who didn't even post is a waste. They are likely to get replaced eventually. We learn next to nothing from those lynches.

I kinda disagree.

Mass Effect was partially determined by some weak replacement of townies.

I had a hell of a hard time finding mafia in the last Hybridity game as two of the four mafia members replaced out and basically got to skate for ~4 phases.

With 24 hour phases, is a prompt replacement realistic?

Who's lynch so you think we'd learn the most from at this point? Already knowing my alignment and having not tied any two other players together, a silent lynch tells me roughly the same thing as any other, that is "the alignment of a player."

Of course, there's stuff yet to be learned in the actual choosing of a specific player.

I will say that Tony has been active in HCRealms games, lately, and shouldn't need a replacement.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:54 pm @all if you had to lynch DDL or JoH which one?

@all if you had to lynch TSP, Dom or Mac which one?

DDL, is JoH on your team?

DDL.

Mac. I can tell when Tony and Dom are good sometimes. I've seen good Mac only and it didn't look like standard good to me.

Voted Mac.


Tony was online today on the Realms. Also, I refuse to screw over Dom a 4th time in our 5 games together. Got enough people who never trust me as is.

Feeling better about DDL.

Hate the votes for no reason.

Can people post their votes on thread? Helps the town imo.

Also helps the mod since no time stamps on votes.

sprityo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:18 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:17 pm Feeling better about DDL.

Hate the votes for no reason.

Your reputation precedes you, Jack

*jazz hands*

Sprityo, I just want to be the very best, like no one ever was.

Is that such a crime?

I don't necessarily think Boo is bad based on that one post an excuse. Could go either way (real excuse or fake) and I don't know Boo well. I could go for a Boo lynch in general or maybe a Timmer one.

I think LC is town. I think Speed is town, probably. Good feelings from Nut and Doc but only feelings, which can't be trusted. Can't place Fred yet.

I think GMan and Dizzy voting for me hurts them in my book. Still townread Dizzy cause I really liked their plan as town indicative. Sprityo gets a pass for voting for me, though I think it's a bad idea.

Really bothered by the idea that three people voted me for unstated reasons. Like watching your goalie sitting down and playing with grass while the team is on offense. Sure, it might not have any bad results in terms of final score but you just gotta wonder what's going on back there.

Ebwop:

anD excuse.

@Gman

I don't see it.