The Syndicate

I'm here to catch the diddler on the roof.

Kyle is with the Russian Police. Discuss.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:18 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:31 am Kyle is with the Russian Police. Discuss.

strongly disagree

I'm afraid that is irrelevant. I know your tell and you have revealed yourself. I am sorry to wreck your game so quickly, but it's just how this works.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:01 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:34 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:18 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:31 am Kyle is with the Russian Police. Discuss.

strongly disagree

I'm afraid that is irrelevant. I know your tell and you have revealed yourself. I am sorry to wreck your game so quickly, but it's just how this works.

that's actually 100% false? first of all, I am a kind and hard-working citizen of Anetevka, so that part's wrong

second of all you've never even seen me play as mafia before, the only player in recent history who has is dunya and even then it was just one game under unique circumstances, not enough to build correlation from

I spectated your sc2 game.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:11 pm okay so you think a 48 hour long game with teens who kept being terrible dicks to each other is going to be indicative of how I play in a real game as mafia?

one game isn't enough for real tell correlation, famous poker player sneezes the first time they roll a full house you don't just assume that they have a full house the second time they sneeze

So you recognize the parallel then?

speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:24 pm If I may make an observation, regarding the setup:

Tevye can get BTSC with his daughters. In doing so, he can confirm them town to himself. So that's neat.

However, if he doesn't search for them, the town gains a cop in the match-maker. Match-maker can search for BTSC, which would (if Tevye doesn't submit actions) only be held by the mafia.

We trade off a BTSC-finder and a town searcher/btsc/lover thing for a cop. Does anyone think this is a good idea?

Game with infodumping and role-claiming: cop > probabilistic/interval civilian BTSC inclusive of four

Game without infordumping and role-claiming (like this one):

I'm going to say the cop is slightly weaker in this case. Without reveals, civilian BTSC becomes one of the strongest available roles, because it is easier to read -- it involves two people simultaneously vouching for each other. A cop can only promote reads him or herself, and it might not be as easy for others to figure out that there is an information basis behind those reads.

It's debatable though. speedchuck is a civilian for discovering that this question is worth asking.

Do people actually read all the roles before games even start?

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:33 pm Jay's usual civvie MO is to scatter bricks around on day 0 and 1 in order to start building discussion and put out reads. What Jay's done here is try to throw a single large brick at me, which causes no variation in discussion at all. The only discussion happening right now is surrounding me.

The only way that tactic comes from a responsible civvie mindset is if Jay really and truly believes in whatever he thinks my tell is

Please tell me about the discussion that was happening in this game thread before I threw a brick at your face.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:48 pm Insincere

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:48 pmBogus

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:55 pm This section is sketchy, Kyle, it reads like it's written by someone with a mafia alignment. "you've never even seen me play as mafia before" implies you're mafia now, and the statement that there's "not enough to build correlation from" implies that there could be enough at some point, but if you're Civ, then the idea would be that "correlation is impossible because I'm not bad."

This section is sketchy, Long Con. You've shoved words into Kylemii's face and said "These are the civilian words. You didn't say the civilian words." as if there aren't multiple possible examples of a civilian response to my poop.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:03 pm So it was poop? And you think LC ate it?

It was poop. Kyle is a quality Mafia player and isn't likely to have some glowing beacon of a tell which shows itself in the first three posts. LC may have eaten it. I am investigating his teeth presently.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:03 pmI ate it, but I puked it back up.

What'd you mean when you said "rekt", presumably about Kyle?

After PoopGate

Sloonei
nutella
speedchuck

Kylemii

F.Z.
Epignosis
Long Con

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:21 pm Kyle, I strongly disagree with your interpretation of FZ. I think she gave a completely original reason to suspect you which was unrelated to Jay's thing.

I don't care for F.Z.'s take there. It's original, but it's a reach to say a guy is frustrated about power arrangements just because he mentioned powers. I could see it as an effort to heap onto the Kyle Pile without being complicit in promoting my poop.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:16 pm I'm just tired. I don't like or respect what Jay is doing here no matter what his motive is.

I don't mean to ruin your fun Kyle. Just know that earning your respect is not always the same thing as promoting a winning game thread environment.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:36 pm Same shit. Different יְוֹם

3J does stuff.

Everyone assumes 3J is doing stuff to make stuff happen, including the stuffed.

Epignosis implies, "3J is full of shit, and is making shit up, and should not be assumed good for it."

Stuffed still is like, "No gee. He's here to help me."

Nope.

3J and Sloonei can hang.

It's "same shit different day" because it happens so much when I'm a civilian. You're full of it, go ahead and get lynched please.

I do think Kyle's response to my nonsense was an incorrect representation of the purpose it may serve (ignoring/discarding the obvious civilian motive). I read him in the civilian direction anyway on the basis of tone. I am not sure Kyle is the sort to say he "doesn't have respect for" some play being made if he isn't genuinely angry about it -- an anger I'd expect to be more civilian-driven than mafia-driven.

Y'all please tell me about Epignosis's last post.

He rightly asserts that I shouldn't be assumed good because I make stuff happen. He then parlays that into "hang Jay and Sloonei", as though "doesn't make him good" is equivalent to "makes them bad".

No thanks. I won't be needing any of that today.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:47 pm You're always talking about winning as if it's something important. At the end of the day we're all just internet friends who play a silly children's game online and take it way too seriously.

I don't let my tongue hang out and move my pieces at random when I break out the Checkers board. I like fun. I like winning too.

Sloonei, your takes on non-Kyle people?

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 pm Jay do you have a read on Sloonei yet?

Civilian. He saw the potential utility of my poop and went right to work with it. His interrogation of you looks authentic and he doesn't seem concerned about appearances with his demeanor and his reads.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:01 pm When you two are teammates, you will maintain a significant advantage over people who blindly assume you will lead the civilians to victory.

I'm here to make sure that doesn't happen.

Do you suspect that we are teammates in this game right now?

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:10 pmyeah actually

His question is a good one. If what I did was "what I do every time", then that means you have to know and understand a civilian motivation that doesn't require me to have really believed what I was saying.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:17 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:12 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:10 pmyeah actually

His question is a good one. If what I did was "what I do every time", then that means you have to know and understand a civilian motivation that doesn't require me to have really believed what I was saying.

at the time of my complaints it wasn't 'what you do every time' you threw a fake large and confident suspicion at me and then left. your usual meta is a small read "tink is good, can anyone tell me why" followed by sticking around to analyze.

it wasn't on-brand til you came back and admitted to the lie

The comparison I thought you were making with "always does this" was my screaming at dunya with a tone of confidence before abruptly dropping the case. That's not the only recent example.

In fact, how is "I have a town read on Tink, can anyone tell me why" any manner of brick throw, small or large?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:20 pm Yes.

Anytime I see this and the like:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:03 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 pm Jay do you have a read on Sloonei yet?

Civilian. He saw the potential utility of my poop and went right to work with it. His interrogation of you looks authentic and he doesn't seem concerned about appearances with his demeanor and his reads.

I assume.

I don't believe you. You'd think we're mafia teammates in every game you play with us. You don't. Fake read. Die.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:55 pm Are you the only one allowed to spew "fake reads?"

Anyway, it isn't fake.

I'm not the only one allowed to spew fake reads, but if you're going to call your fake read real then it's a moot point.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:57 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:30 pm Jay and I have been scum partners once. It was in Street Fighter. He bussed me on Day 1 and then subbed out.

I find it hard to believe you have only been partners once.

It's true. That was the worst part about having to sub out of that game.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:56 pm How would you expect them to act when they are both bad together?

Answer your own question, and then describe how the play you've seen from us in this thread so far fits that description while failing to fit the description of the civilian-civilian Jay/Sloonei dynamic.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:04 pm I would expect you two to act the same way as you are acting now: Verifying each other and validating each other.

A weak civilian team is going to just go with that.

And I'll have none of that.

Nope.

1. Sloonei has not validated me in this game.

2. We have cooperatively read each other as civilians as civilians on numerous occasions, which is why this fake paranoia is being expressed. You know the trend exists as it is the inspiration for this accusation, and yet you cannot substantiate the accusation in this case whatsoever beyond "if the civilians listen to you two they're doomed". It's empty bullshit and you know it.

Epignosis is my top suspect.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:19 pm

what do you think is his motivation right now?
[/quote]

The nip the Sloonei/Jay teamwork in the bud as quickly as possible, if not merely for you and I then for other observers of you and I, because if left unchecked it usually ends in civilian victories.

I guess I'll ebwop it.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:22 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:19 pm what do you think is his motivation right now?

The nip the Sloonei/Jay teamwork in the bud as quickly as possible, if not merely for you and I then for other observers of you and I, because if left unchecked it usually ends in civilian victories.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:27 pm

Does it make sense for scum Epi to make this move so boldly?
[/quote]

Who are we talking about here? You might as well ask me if it makes sense for grass to grow in the sunshine or water to be wet. He's too proud to kill me, and by extension probably you too. The man welcomes a challenge.

Two quote failures in such quick succession is like an unassisted triple play for me.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:33 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:28 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:27 pm Does it make sense for scum Epi to make this move so boldly?

Who are we talking about here? You might as well ask me if it makes sense for grass to grow in the sunshine or water to be wet. He's too proud to kill me, and by extension probably you too. The man welcomes a challenge.

I just think he'd be a little more subtle about seeding concerns about us. Doing it this way makes it seem like an earnest tinfoil to me, as I circle the drain of wifom. I don't mind a little bit of vigilance.

I don't think Epignosis is the sort to waste time on tinfoil on Day 0, and I don't think there's anything in this thread which should alert him to the specific scenario that we're teamed and bad. This has been ordinary shit.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:11 am JaggedJimmyJay remains my #1 suspect. He wasn't trying to learn anything about Kyle or from other people. He was just trying to look like he was.

3J, you're bad at pretending.

You're good at saying things for the sake of saying things. There's no basis for this comment, it merely exists.

Non-fiction dialogue:

Anyone who really believes I would prefer to whip this thread into a frenzy for appearances than just let it snail along with nothing but theme-inspired chatter has no clue about my mafia-aligned play. No clue.

Number of relevant posts in this thread before I pooped: 0

Number of relevant posts in this thread after I pooped: 150+

You're welcome.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:55 am Yeah I don't trust your calls to meta. It bothers me more that you said this than the rest of your play this game.

I don't care what bothers you. I won Phenon: Origins because the civilians were generally disengaged and did not try. I won Transistor because the civilians were generally disengaged and did not try. Rule #1 is to let a lazy thread remain lazy. There have been instances where I've provided some half-assed fake "motivation", like "let's go, the thread is moving too slow". Those things never matter and don't hasten the thread pace.

Pushing Kyle's buttons and blowing it up? That works. I know what works. Feel free to discard this shit after this game now that it's plainly stated, but it's true right now.

The votes appear to be changeable.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:59 am The votes appear to be changeable.

Oddly I cannot see the names of the voters though. [mention]DFaraday[/mention], you may want to verify the poll settings.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:56 am You won phenon because you took over as town leader, which you did by purposefully emulating your civvie style. Low activity allowed it to happen, but it wasn't the sole cause.

I was able to take over as town leader because of the low activity. I was unable to take over as town leader in Mountain Mafia because of the high activity. Cultivating a thread environment that benefits my faction is perhaps the most important skill I have developed over the years as a Mafia player. I was actually close to getting there in Mountains too, but when dunya replaced in she re-ignited it (to her credit).

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:56 am why this?

Because even now, after playing 7.313 x 10^23 games here and winning two-thirds of them, there still seems to be some doubt about the purpose or effectiveness of what I do.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:56 ambecause a mafia jay would be totally relaxed just letting the thread stay dead quiet for any length of time. A maf jay wouldn't worry about emulating a civ Jay's well known meta at all. isn't that a little bit of a flawed statement?

I didn't say I wouldn't emulate my meta. I said I wouldn't accelerate a thread so much. I have had success in the past pretending to try to accelerate a thread with good-for-appearances but ultimately ineffective calls for activity. The proposed strategy of intentionally blowing this thread up just to look like civilian Jay is crap, because I am not going to earn sufficient credit for doing so to offset the disadvantage I place myself and my teammates in by igniting the game thread.

I understand that people aren't going to feel comfortable taking that at face value. They rarely do. I am telling you anyway. And there will probably be a time in the future when I am mafia-aligned, and I play it exactly like I am telling you I would play it, and I get away with it because nobody remembers this conversation.

It has happened so many times.

Generally, I think it's easier for an observer to recognize what I am doing than the target of my poop. There's a personal bias involved, and some portion of the purpose of the maneuver is to provoke. I am not surprised or alarmed that Kyle was so defensive. There's an element of personality involved too -- I wouldn't expect every player to handle that the same way.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:36 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:05 amThe proposed strategy of intentionally blowing this thread up just to look like civilian Jay is crap, because I am not going to earn sufficient credit for doing so to offset the disadvantage I place myself and my teammates in by igniting the game thread

but my problem with it is the implication that there is ever any risk associated with your day 0 meta at all, regardless of alignment.

the disadvantage to yourself is negligible because if you do the same risky thing every game no one is going to call you out on it, cus it's familiar.

and... the disadvantage to the mafia is also questionable. discussion has to start sometime, and it has to start somewhere. Civ Jay picks anyone, it doesn't matter who. Conversation spreads like cracks in the ice and like yes this is definitely a disadvantage for the mafia. But... mafia Jay picks a random player that's not on their team, draws attention to them and away from his teammates, this is a completely free advantage for the mafia since Jay won't draw attention for it cus he's just doing what he always does.

I understand why you feel that way. I don't. I think a truly accelerated game thread sucks ass for a mafia team and I don't subject myself and my teammates to that just to earn meta credit. There are better ways for evil Jay to look like himself and I have used them effectively many times (e.g. huge, substantive analytic posts which look very JJJ and do nothing to accelerate a game thread). I am a calculated player with very precise conceptions of risk and benefit.

Believe me or don't, this entire dialogue is just WIFOM to people who aren't me.

I haven't believed any post Epignosis has put in this thread that ties in any way to me. I welcome other perspectives, because right now I feel perfectly comfortable leaving my vote where it is.

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:10 am I want to be clear that I didn't eat any poop.

I'm okay with this game, because this sentence exists.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:21 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:51 am Number of relevant posts in this thread before I pooped: 0

Number of relevant posts in this thread after I pooped: 150+

You're welcome.

Relevant posts within twelve hours of the game starting (while most people were in bed): 0

Relevant posts since then: More than 0.

Yeah, I had nothing to do with driving that change.

Obtuse.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:36 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:27 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:11 am JaggedJimmyJay remains my #1 suspect. He wasn't trying to learn anything about Kyle or from other people. He was just trying to look like he was.

3J, you're bad at pretending.

I'm interested in an elaboration on this. Are there examples of Jay using his standard day 0 maneuver in a game where Jay was mafia? Did he do this in phenon or pirate?

I'm not interested in examples in which so-and-so did such-and-such as mafia.

What 3J describes is something that is very easy to replicate Day 1 when you are mafia, and on my end it looks like a quick way to establish early credibility: He is patting himself on the back for generating content by calling you bad based on some "tell" that apparently everyone but you knew didn't exist.

That doesn't impress me.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:59 am The votes appear to be changeable.

I was in bed, but I assume this means 3J voted for me before even finding out if votes could be changed or not.

Do you think a civilian 3J would cast a potentially permanent vote so early?

You’re mafia because you think my objective should be to “impress you”. Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.

Regarding the vote, I actually didn’t even consider that it may not be changeable until the moment I submitted. Very few games have employed that rule recently, but I did recognize in the moment that DFaraday may be old school.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:22 am Jimmy is scum because Epi makes perfect sense and Jimmy is trying to pretend he isn't.

Snore.

Show me what makes so much sense.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:21 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:56 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:22 am Jimmy is scum because Epi makes perfect sense and Jimmy is trying to pretend he isn't.

Snore.

Show me what makes so much sense.

Just read his iso. You are in shit sling mode because Epi is on the verge of handing you your ass. None of your arguments against him are rational. You are doubling down on omgus because it's wifom and your day 1 is a choreographed mimicry of your usual play without the common sense.

Cool, do that thing where you don’t actually answer shit. I think you’re town, because at this point in his Mafia life the only MacDougall who ever really trusts JJJ at all is scum MacDougall. The only memory I can recall is Talking Heads.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:13 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:05 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:56 am You won phenon because you took over as town leader, which you did by purposefully emulating your civvie style. Low activity allowed it to happen, but it wasn't the sole cause.

I was able to take over as town leader because of the low activity. I was unable to take over as town leader in Mountain Mafia because of the high activity. Cultivating a thread environment that benefits my faction is perhaps the most important skill I have developed over the years as a Mafia player. I was actually close to getting there in Mountains too, but when dunya replaced in she re-ignited it (to her credit).

I'm the one who put out that fire. dunya didn't even vote for you. She voted alongside you.

You did well to drive my lynch specifically. She re-activated a thread that was dying. That’s the number one reason my team was exposed by POE after I was gone.

Epignosis is my final vote. The guy said it’s same shit different day, meaning he is well aware that my play in this game is ordinary for a civilian JJJ. His case is contngent upon that.

Just think that through, people.