The Syndicate

Hi all, thanks for waiting. Obviously, I pick dunya and assign the role of Thief.

I am so out of my element reading these role descriptions, lmao. This’ll be fun!

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:36 pm I feel kinda sorry for @ColinIsCool, who gets the last role no one else wants.

Nah, I’ll have no clue what I’m doing either way so it’s all good.

I don’t even remember how you’re supposed to confidently lynch somebody on Day 1. Just please don’t have it be me?

When Mafia first started on RYM I was able to ball out and do ridiculous gambits because I had played in a lot of games on different forums for years beforehand. Now it’s like 7 (?) years later and it’s like y’all have been training in the gym every day since while I’ve been eating Cheetos on a sofa.

I don’t really feel like I can trust JJJ right now. That MacDougall line of interrogation seems like a whole lot of latching onto nothing just to make it appear as if there’s a semi-reasonable case. Although if I were mafia in this game I would probably take advantage of the set-up confusion some people are experiencing and just lay low for a little while so I dunno. What do you all think?

Second point: I really don’t buy the argument “I’d never be picked for mafia, I’m too obvious!” because ... that’s about as basic a WIFOM you can get. I think JJJ used this but then again, so did Mac.

I also think the exercise about asking who we would pick to be on our team is a little odd, it’s basically inviting the mafia to throw you off, no? Doesn’t seem to me like there’s a lot to gleam from it so that begs the question, why ask it?

JJJ: sorry, I erased a sentence in there and didn’t ever rephrase it. Your assertions of being super town and huge level of activity (note: dunya also has earned this vibe) seem sketchy. I’ve seen in almost every game I’ve ever played that mafioso/anti-town who wants to be a leader and it’s an automatic flag from me.

On mobile but let me dig up the posts re: your second point.

Looks like I got the idea from Mac actually so that’s my bad.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:39 pm

dunya wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:36 pm MacDougall: if you were the don and you had to pick 4 scummates, who would you have chosen?

Probably a wifom mix. Everyone would assume Jimmy would get picked so why pick him? Probably gwilikers6, RDW, you and Wilgy. You mostly so you weren't out here analysing things legitimately. RDW and gwilly for ol times sake. Wilgy because I love being mafia with him.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:01 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:00 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:58 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:55 pmColinIsTown

I hate that post. Why do you like it?

Of course you do. It's about how he suspects you.

I see the civvie wheels turning in that post. Sincerity abounds in the tone and I feel that his opinions are naturally derived.

No, it's about his read stemming from things that don't exist or are otherwise qualified with nothing waffles.

I think you're a civilian, and Colin's post looks like TMI.

What’s TMI?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:09 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:03 pm JJJ: sorry, I erased a sentence in there and didn’t ever rephrase it. Your assertions of being super town and huge level of activity (note: dunya also has earned this vibe) seem sketchy. I’ve seen in almost every game I’ve ever played that mafioso/anti-town who wants to be a leader and it’s an automatic flag from me.

On mobile but let me dig up the posts re: your second point.

Supertown Jimmy is a character. He stems from RYM game #55. It's a running gag.

Every time I say that mafia members don't blow threads up, I hear dissent and I always end up right. Mafia members can make a lot of posts. Mafia members can lead the thread in posts (they rarely do, but it can happen). In over 100 games of Mafia though across about 10-12 websites, I have never seen a single mafioso completely dominate the post count of a fast-moving game to the degree that dunya has in this game other than a single instance from MovingPictures07 (Mafia Championship Scrimmage, this site).

The next time I see it from someone other than MP will be the first time.

Good to know on the joke then, thanks for explaining. As for the other point, like I said, I’ve seen games completely manhandled by mafioso trying to pull all the strings. I’ve been that guy pretty much.

TBH, I haven’t played in a long time and I don’t remember anybody’s playstyle so I’m definitely not trying to finger anybody with my brilliant intuition. Just trying to work out the things that strike me funny in case they’re helpful.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:14 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:51 pm I don’t really feel like I can trust JJJ right now. That MacDougall line of interrogation seems like a whole lot of latching onto nothing just to make it appear as if there’s a semi-reasonable case. Although if I were mafia in this game I would probably take advantage of the set-up confusion some people are experiencing and just lay low for a little while so I dunno. What do you all think?

I find this green stuff disdainful. The first portion of the sentence should logically explain the latter. It was an interrogation. The purpose of the interrogation is not to "make it appear as if there's a semi-reasonable case" -- which is already hedging language. It is to develop a read leading to a decision after the interrogation. Moreover, this assertion says nothing about MacDougall himself, but must inherently presume his innocence if Big Bad JJJ is giving him the works. That's where I derive a perspective of TMI (too much information).

Then it's disqualified with the blue stuff and it becomes an Eggo Waffle.

I’m gonna have to ask you to not read too deeply into my paragraph structure here because I’m on mobile and already said I made a mistake in the post anyway. As far as Mac goes he didn’t really give me a reason to suspect him, the colonialbob stuff is weird maybe but definitely didn’t read as a scumtell on Day 1, so your “interrogation” of it seems a little false.

gwilikers6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:21 pm

dunya wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:18 pm

gwilikers6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:12 pm But Kites' message there makes me think gender will play more of a role in the game than I would have thought from what I got.

If you read JOH's flavor message to commence Day 1, he specifically used male and female pronouns so yes, character gender will be relevant.

"Thumb now looked exactly like the one he had killed."

"Pointer said while wiping the blood from his weapon"

"Middle was looking forward to facing the prince on the battlefield." - gender unspecified

"Ring's blade pierced a man's skull with ease." - gender unspecified

"Pinky smiled as darkness rose behind her."

We know Thumb and Pointer are male, Pinky is female and Middle and Ring are still unknown.

I'm not sure I'm ready to read into story text like that. This could all be coincidental. I don't see why JOH would reveal actual bad guys' genders with a story there exclusively for flavor.

I don’t know what the conventions are here but I’ve played many games where hints about scum are buried in the flavor text; the thinking is, why else bother writing them? There’s no way for us to know right now whether that’s the case though.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:03 pm Tomorrow I will read all 24(!) pages of the thread.

I really want others to tell me whom they would choose if they were mafia recruiters. Please do that.

Why do you want to know this?

JJJ, what’s the difference between your tiers of green? Are you saying you have “very strong” town reads on 4 players, somehow, and “also town” reads on 10 more?

BTW, since we are already demonstrating that we’ll screw up the vote tally and the GM definitely should keep track independently, what about including a tag-word any time a person votes so they can ctrl f them all easily? Something that we wouldn’t say in any mafia context, like “asparagus.” Just a random thought I had right now

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:11 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:09 pm JJJ, what’s the difference between your tiers of green? Are you saying you have “very strong” town reads on 4 players, somehow, and “also town” reads on 10 more?

Tiers can be translated to:

~ This is a strong civilian read ~

~ I lean in the civilian direction ~

~ This is not a civilian read ~

Care to explain the strong reads then?

Thanks JJJ. I can’t say I’m persuaded by anything you said, especially your notions about dunya’s activity (I guess our experiences with mafia just diverge here because I’ve seen it more than just once) but I appreciate it.

Nope, not on RYM that I can recall, other games on other forums where I got my ass handed to me by some really manipulative “supertown” SOBs.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:51 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:50 pm Nope, not on RYM that I can recall, other games on other forums where I got my ass handed to me by some really manipulative “supertown” SOBs.

What are your reads on the four people in question?

dunya
Kylemii
Dragon D. Luffy
colonialbob

Dunya: mostly positive, actually, but strong players ought to be kept under scrutiny. Excitement scares me in Mafia because I know I’m always more excited when I get to lie. Then again she was excited enough to invite me before roles were called so it also seems genuine.

Kylemii: not a lot here for me, but I can’t agree with your read because it’s based on a meta I have no knowledge of. Nothing seems particularly scummy but nothing seems particularly towny.

DDL: I’m not sold on the case against Mac that people were all aboard for a little bit ago. The vote against him here struck me as capitalizing on his post with a rationale that looks good at first but not really under scrutiny. I don’t think a scum would offer himself up so easily on Day 1 as a sacrificial lamb when there’s slight momentum against him, but a townie might. I don’t also see anything in the hunting style that’s particularly better than anybody else’s.

Colonialbob: again, not a lot of feelings here but see the above re: hunting style

(In general the interactions between Mac and others are not adding up, including to Mac himself, and pursuing something there, between those players, might be the best route to go.)

The main theme here is that your rationale is based on intuitions I don’t share or information I don’t have access to, which isn’t your fault.

Also, I really want to know why Epignosis wants to know who we would pick?

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:14 am (In general the interactions between Mac and others are not adding up, including to Mac himself, and pursuing something there, between those players, might be the best route to go.)

This is poorly phrased; when I say “to Mac himself” I mean that Mac is not absolved of all suspicion, but the whole thing is fishy.

Kites wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:48 am

gwilikers6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:40 pm

Kenway wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:38 pm Oh wait, Sloonei isn't in this game, I have to pick another one up.

JJJ is the likeliest candidate but putting him and Dunya on a scum team is probably predictable, so I'll choose MacDougall instead. I don't know why but I always want to be on his good side. Also, I've been scum with him before, so there's that.

This post is so scummy you've gotta be town.

what do you mean by this? it was obviously an answer to epignosis’ question.

speaking of epignosis, he’s the most suspicious person imo. i don’t know if this ”who would your mafia mates be” survey is a common thing on this site but i don’t remember people doing it in rym games. it doesn’t give any useful information, cos the answer is so easy to fake it might actually help scum mislead people i dunno

i think he’s just tryna make a false impression he’s contributing sth valuable to the game

I agree, leaning towards a vote here unless there’s a good defense or argument against someone else (still wary of that Mac situation)

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:05 pm I won't say more until Epignosis explains the exercise himself, but I can conceive of some productive applications of it beyond these obvious count-based ideas being fielded.

Do we find out that the Don is the Don if they’re killed? Because that’s the only way it would be useful, but even then, we’d still have to roll the dice with the list the Don posted publicly and that’s just asking to get played. That’s why I think it’s a guise of participating.

I think that the nation assignments (the ones we see anyway) are all random so I don't know if that's such a good course to go down, it's not like other games where there are guaranteed x number in a certain faction.

rundontwalk wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:12 pm

sprityo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:08 pm [1] DrWilgy - Marmot
[1] lapluie - JaggedJimmyJay
[1] rabbit8 - colonialbob
[1] TonyStarkPrime - nutella
[1] sprityo - Dragon D. Luffy
[1] Quin - dunya
[2] Epignosis - Kites, Marmot
[2] Marmot - Long Con , RunDontWalk

----

Not Voting: ColinIsCool, Dr. White, DrWilgy, Epignosis, gwilikers6, Iron_Dwarf, Kenway, Kylemii, lapluie, MacDougall, Quin, rabbit8, sig, sprityo, TonyStarkPrime

Yknow i really dont want to vote without feeling confident, but ill vote ddl out of preservation if i need to

Why preserve yourself? A townie would accept his fate.

I sort of get what you're saying but I think most of us are here because we want to play the game and not get kicked out as soon as it starts, no?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:23 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:14 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:51 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:50 pm Nope, not on RYM that I can recall, other games on other forums where I got my ass handed to me by some really manipulative “supertown” SOBs.

What are your reads on the four people in question?

dunya
Kylemii
Dragon D. Luffy
colonialbob

Dunya: mostly positive, actually, but strong players ought to be kept under scrutiny. Excitement scares me in Mafia because I know I’m always more excited when I get to lie. Then again she was excited enough to invite me before roles were called so it also seems genuine.

Kylemii: not a lot here for me, but I can’t agree with your read because it’s based on a meta I have no knowledge of. Nothing seems particularly scummy but nothing seems particularly towny.

DDL: I’m not sold on the case against Mac that people were all aboard for a little bit ago. The vote against him here struck me as capitalizing on his post with a rationale that looks good at first but not really under scrutiny. I don’t think a scum would offer himself up so easily on Day 1 as a sacrificial lamb when there’s slight momentum against him, but a townie might. I don’t also see anything in the hunting style that’s particularly better than anybody else’s.

Colonialbob: again, not a lot of feelings here but see the above re: hunting style

(In general the interactions between Mac and others are not adding up, including to Mac himself, and pursuing something there, between those players, might be the best route to go.)

The main theme here is that your rationale is based on intuitions I don’t share or information I don’t have access to, which isn’t your fault.

Also, I really want to know why Epignosis wants to know who we would pick?

This is the third time you've criticized or questioned what I'm dong. How can you judge the usefulness of this before I've gone through with it? Your initial criticism of what I was doing was this:

I also think the exercise about asking who we would pick to be on our team is a little odd, it’s basically inviting the mafia to throw you off, no? Doesn’t seem to me like there’s a lot to gleam from it so that begs the question, why ask it?

How can you know what the mafia is being "invited" to do if you don't even know what I'm doing?

And if you are not mafia, and you don't really believe I'm mafia (because you differentiated between me and the mafia by saying I was inviting the mafia to throw me off), then I cannot fathom why you wouldn't answer my question in good conscience.

I think I will vote after all.

Vote: ColinisCool

As I have said before, and as you have not addressed, it looks to me like it's "participating." Distracting, building up a resume of contributing in a pro-town direction without actually pushing things in a helpful direction. You might as well be asking "Hey Mafia, are you Mafia?" and expecting something good to come of it. Even if it is a matter of seeing which names pop up and addressing the biggest "threats" somehow, this whole thing just adds another dimension of manipulation by the mafia if you're town, or it's your attempt at manipulation if you're mafia (because to be clear, I never said I thought you were town, that statement pretty easily indicates a suspicion).

Another reason why I think it's not helpful is because of my own answer. I don't know who I would pick because I don't know anybody here so it would probably be random. Thus, there is nothing you can gleam from my answer, so you might as well be asking people ITT "what's your favorite kind of sandwich?"

Lastly, your vote really strikes me as a defensive scum move, voting for me just because I'm voicing suspicions against you while you refuse to clarify or address any question posed to you (and not just by me.) It doesn't help that there's momentum against you as of your post.

I pretty much retired from RYMafia before analyzing metas were a thing so I don't know. It's an odd statement to make but it's also an odd statement for a scum to stick their neck out on.

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:46 pm @DrWilgy
@Iron_Dwarf
@lapluie
@rabbit8

at least one of these people has got to be mafia. get in here and talk

Because ...?

gwilikers6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:48 pm I looked at nutella's ISO because of that post and to me, it's characterized mostly but non-commitment. So far she's made two votes this one for Mac, which demonstrates my point nicely. Look at these phrases: "Can't decide how to feel," "Maybe it's excusable," but apparently it's enough for her to place a vote. Looks like she's trying to dip her toes in the water with a case that was already floating around, but trying not to commit too much in case it didn't pan out.

Which it obviously didn't. Here is the one strong stance nutella seems to take. And she backs down from it 2 hours and 2 posts later here. Again, very very noncommittal. And only because you don't think Mac would fake not knowing his alignment as scum? I can certainly imagine Mac doing that.

All this trepidation combined with that weird post on giving Tony shaman is enough for me to VOTE NUTELLA

Thanks for this post. The whole Mac thing rubbed me the wrong way as I voiced before and I forgot nutella's post was a big reason why. There is definitely something to be said for being as careful not to commit as all that.

Well, maybe, but they're also the remaining four who haven't said anything re: Epignosis' request, so I want to know why nutella thinks they need to answer it and why not answering it makes them seem suspicious.

To clarify my suggestion earlier was that moving forward when we vote, instead of bolding or whatever we just say something like

Aubergine
Vote Ronald Reagan

so that the admin can easily find votes and tally them that way instead of having to sift through page after page to verify whether we got the count right.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:10 pm Colin and nutella talk about each other plz

The main thing I don't like is broadcasting the indecision that much, but that might be a meta I'm unaware of. Looking through the ISO I gotta say I don't like either the vote for Mac or for TSP, though. They seem like shaky cases. I am sympathetic, though, to being confused about the roles because I am too. Unfortunately I can't make up my mind.

Epignosis, I have no reason to trust you and even less when you refuse to answer my questions. I think you can understand that because you think I'm suspicious for not answering yours, no? Whatever you think my post implies, what I am saying is that I am suspicious of your exercise and of you. And I'm not the only one, so saying that it's manufactured is just plain not true.

I don't see the value in your exercise. The burden of proof is not on me when it comes to changing my mind there, it's on you to show that it's useful to the town. And while, yeah, someone could protect you in the night phases, it's also weird to me that you're openly advertising that you have some scheme that we don't know anything about rolling that would be detrimental to the mafia, because wouldn't they then want to kill you?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:19 pm You have asked me or wondered aloud now three times about what I am doing. I haven't answered you. There's a damn good reason for that. Were I to answer, the mafia now know what I am doing. Thanks, but no thanks.

I mean, why say this? Whether they know what you're doing or not, you are advertising yourself as a threat to them, saying that it's their best interests to stop you from figuring this stuff out. Why would a townie be so confident they wouldn't be nightkilled for that sentence alone?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:34 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:27 pm Epignosis, I have no reason to trust you and even less when you refuse to answer my questions. I think you can understand that because you think I'm suspicious for not answering yours, no? Whatever you think my post implies, what I am saying is that I am suspicious of your exercise and of you. And I'm not the only one, so saying that it's manufactured is just plain not true.

I don't see the value in your exercise. The burden of proof is not on me when it comes to changing my mind there, it's on you to show that it's useful to the town. And while, yeah, someone could protect you in the night phases, it's also weird to me that you're openly advertising that you have some scheme that we don't know anything about rolling that would be detrimental to the mafia, because wouldn't they then want to kill you?

Do you think his exercise, even if pointless, has any potential to do harm? If not, why haven't you given some names?

As I said before, I think it's just a WIFOM rabbit hole and easily manipulated by the mafia to send us in the wrong direction, lynch the wrong people. And I supplied my answer, which was the same as yours, IIRC.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:36 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:32 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:19 pm You have asked me or wondered aloud now three times about what I am doing. I haven't answered you. There's a damn good reason for that. Were I to answer, the mafia now know what I am doing. Thanks, but no thanks.

I mean, why say this? Whether they know what you're doing or not, you are advertising yourself as a threat to them, saying that it's their best interests to stop you from figuring this stuff out. Why would a townie be so confident they wouldn't be nightkilled for that sentence alone?

No thanks. You're telling me that Epignosis should be broadcasting his intentions, whatever they may be, thus neutralizing their potential, all so he can avoid a night kill which is by the numbers already unlikely?

I hate this reasoning.

No. He could say something like, "I think it'd be useful to see what people say." Or he could say "There might be patterns in who's picked." If he has a real strategy here that needs time to pan out, he shouldn't be daring the Mafia to kill him for it by saying he has a "damn good reason" to hide his intentions.

Those of you who are asking me to name names need to go back and see where I said I'd pick random names, because I don't know you. I said this directly in an exchange about all of this explaining why I thought it was suspicious.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:43 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:40 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:36 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:32 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:19 pm You have asked me or wondered aloud now three times about what I am doing. I haven't answered you. There's a damn good reason for that. Were I to answer, the mafia now know what I am doing. Thanks, but no thanks.

I mean, why say this? Whether they know what you're doing or not, you are advertising yourself as a threat to them, saying that it's their best interests to stop you from figuring this stuff out. Why would a townie be so confident they wouldn't be nightkilled for that sentence alone?

No thanks. You're telling me that Epignosis should be broadcasting his intentions, whatever they may be, thus neutralizing their potential, all so he can avoid a night kill which is by the numbers already unlikely?

I hate this reasoning.

No. He could say something like, "I think it'd be useful to see what people say." Or he could say "There might be patterns in who's picked." If he has a real strategy here that needs time to pan out, he shouldn't be daring the Mafia to kill him for it by saying he has a "damn good reason" to hide his intentions.

Absolute crap.

Simple question, Colin: what is the current phase?

Y'all, this condescending stuff is not gonna fly, I don't need to be in this game.

I don't see what I'm not communicating here. It is really, really strange for a townie, no matter the phase, to come into the thread and advertise themselves alone as a threat to the mafia. If you really think you have an ace in the hole or a way to get a leg up, you want to disguise it innocuously. You don't want to say stuff like "if the Mafia knew what I was doing, they'd try to stop me." Well, now they know they have a good reason to try to stop you either way, so it's USELESS.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:54 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:49 pm Y'all, this condescending stuff is not gonna fly, I don't need to be in this game.

I don't see what I'm not communicating here. It is really, really strange for a townie, no matter the phase, to come into the thread and advertise themselves alone as a threat to the mafia. If you really think you have an ace in the hole or a way to get a leg up, you want to disguise it innocuously. You don't want to say stuff like "if the Mafia knew what I was doing, they'd try to stop me." Well, now they know they have a good reason to try to stop you either way, so it's USELESS.

I don't intend to be condescending, so please don't take offense. I simply don't believe the argument you're putting forth here.

1.) Epignosis has a zero percent chance of being night killed on Day 1, so that we're talking about this at all is already goofy.

2.) Where is this brazen advertisement of being an imminent threat? Epignosis said he isn't going to tell you what he intends with his exercise because it would render the exercise pointless. Maybe it even is pointless. You haven't given it a chance though. Before it has ever developed, barely halfway into the day phase, you have discarded it as nothing. Why not give Epignosis time to do whatever he's doing before you make that decision? Maybe it's an hour to EOD and he still hasn't done shit. Then you can make this case more validly. It isn't that hard to fathom why this exercise might have value. First and foremost, what is the core source of this current dialogue? It's right in front of your face.

3.) The entire premise that a civilian inherently must play timidly to avoid night kills flies in the face of common sense. If you're an alignment cop, sure, be careful. Otherwise who gives a damn? The objective of this game is not to survive. It is to lynch mafia.

1) I don't understand why you think I'm worried about that. I know that doesn't happen. But what might happen if I came into this thread and said, "hey, I have a great idea to take down the mafia, but the mafia can't know about it." I'd probably be a target for the following night phase. Why not lay a little lower?

2) I've given my reasons for why I've "discarded it as nothing." I think it's an unhelpful distraction from real scumhunting. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but his conduct doesn't give me any town points.

3) Those of you who are OG RYMers will remember that I was a cop who sussed out 3/4 (or maybe all of, idk) the mafia team in one of the earliest games. I did a lot of behind the scenes engineering to make those lynches happen. What I did not do was do engineering in the thread, saying things like "I can't tell you what I'm up to or the Mafia will ruin it" to pique their suspicions. Show me one instance of Epignosis being helpful in this entire game and maybe I'll reconsider, but I bet you can't.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:23 pm Jimmy re. Colin.

Since you are the encyclopedia of RYMafia can you help me. I seem to recall that despite starting the RYMafia craze (unless I am conflating him with someone else) Colin had a large break at one point and upon return we had evolved the game so much that he came across abnormal and caught heat for it and also felt like everyone else was very foreign and playing a different game to him and vocalised it.

If you can recall in which game that was and what his alignment was that would be super because it feels like he is doing the same thing here and I feel like it might just be his focus on how the game ought to be played that is attracting all this suspicion.

Colin you might recall too?

Yeah, despite what Jimmuy said I think this kinda happened. This was when everybody was throwing around metas as the extent of scumhunting and I had no idea wtf I was doing. I wanna say maybe it was communism themed but honestly I have no idea. And I have no idea what my alignment was either. I didn't start RYMafia but I was on the ground floor of it, never hosted.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:37 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:31 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:29 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:28 pm My whole point is irrelevant because I mistook him for sinagog. Moving on.

It may not be irrelevant, because I am sure the intensity of this brand of Mafia is not the same as what Colin was accustomed to in the early games on RYM. I don't know if that culture shock is a good reason for him to assume Epignosis should be hiding from night kills though. I just don't get that argument.

Some civs like to avoid night kills no? I'm sure we have had that conversation before.

Old timey Syndikats who are accustomed to survival win conditions might. I generally don't give a shit about avoiding kills. Granted, I rarely seem to get killed.

The structure of the argument, as I see it (correct me if it's a misinterpretation, Colin) is this:

A. Epignosis is employing an exercise which doesn't look especially productive.

B. Epignosis is not giving details about the purpose of the exercise or what he hopes to do with it because it might tip of the Mafia team to his intentions.

C. This means Epignosis is admitting to being a threat to the mafia and thus a potential night kill target.

D. A civilian shouldn't make himself so openly a night kill target.

~~~

I think (A) is too quick to discard the exercise when the day is young enough that there's no urgency for Epignosis to have any perspective other than (B). Moreover, I don't understand how (C) follows from (B) -- a gap in reasoning is being crossed and it makes little sense to me. Playing some exercise in the thread and keeping its purpose under wraps is not equivalent to having some unique power role which should terrify the mafia team. That logic is bizarre. (D) can be a matter of culture shock/clash. I think it's an overly simplistic portrayal of a broad strategic concept, but some people probably do avoid night kills even to the detriment of their own civilian team.

(A) may be too quick to discard. But Epignosis' insistence on doing it, without offering even a lazy reason why, is strange to me.
As far as (B) to (C), look for where Epignosis said this as I quoted earlier:

"You have asked me or wondered aloud now three times about what I am doing. I haven't answered you. There's a damn good reason for that. Were I to answer, the mafia now know what I am doing."

Damn good reason. If there's a damn good reason to not tell me what he's doing, then I think there's also a damn good reason to not hammer the fact that he is doing it. It is daring townies to be suspicious, and daring mafia to suspect they may have a reason to worry. Chalk it up to different playstyles, maybe, but that's not a great look if you wanna have your master townie plan come together.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:48 pm I suspect him for implying I was not mafia, discrediting my approach without seeing what I have to offer, and then suspecting me.

1, I never implied you weren't mafia, and have already said so. 2, burden of proof's not on me to be convinced. 3, y'all shady.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:01 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:49 pm I don't see what I'm not communicating here. It is really, really strange for a townie, no matter the phase, to come into the thread and advertise themselves alone as a threat to the mafia. If you really think you have an ace in the hole or a way to get a leg up, you want to disguise it innocuously. You don't want to say stuff like "if the Mafia knew what I was doing, they'd try to stop me." Well, now they know they have a good reason to try to stop you either way, so it's USELESS.

Here. This. This is what I find so gross. There's such an obvious interpretation that Colin is not acknowledging.

Epignosis doesn't want to tip off the mafia team. It isn't about their "wanting to stop him". It's about their understanding of his intentions and reacting accordingly. If there's something he's looking for, or some overall purpose under the surface -- saying what it is in the thread prevents it from working. The mafia maneuver their behavior to improve their appearances.

I have been that guy so many times. It's the exact reason why the first few times I ran those gun-to-head reads exercises, I was as vague as possible about what I was doing until the last second. Tipping off the mafia team to your moves is foolish, and that Colin demanded that of Epignosis with this bolded bullshit in hand strikes me such crap.

Adjust behavior accordingly ... as in, maybe night kill him? Weren't you just saying you don't understand what I was saying about that?

dunya wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:16 pm D. this is not exactly the whole story, because he's also calling Epi scum for doing it and not just scolding a civ Epi. I wouldn't say this exercise has helped me decide whether Epi is scum or town yet, but what I don't like in this (unlike your reasons), is Colin's handling of the argument which points to WHY a civ SHOULDN'T do what Epi does, the whole argument reliant on a civ Epi to make sense, then call him scum. Unless he believes Epi is being really contrary? Idgi.

I think it looks suss, but I don't think I ever called Epi scum; I said his vote against me looked like a "defensive scum move." Epi has not done any scumhunting and, when confronted about his exercise, is over the top antagonistic about it. And he voted for me, literally because I voted for him, check the ISO. So yeah, not big town vibes here all things considered, but if I really thought he were scum I would have voted for him a few hours ago. My main bad vibe also comes from the point I made earlier in this post re: "damn good reason."

Oh my God there were so many new posts just now. Give me a minute in case anybody asked me anything that I didn't address ...

Ah, btw, when I said "voted for him" in my last point I meant "voiced suspicion of him," that was a typo.

colonialbob wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:22 pm @ColinIsCool the only thing I don't get is why you brought the nightkill into it when we were barely halfway into the day phase?

I straight up don't understand this question any time anybody's asked it. Because the things you do in the day phase affect how the mafia perceives you and if you get nightkilled on day 1, you don't live to day 2, and you can't contribute useful information/win the game? Is there a difference in fundamental game mechanics between this site and everywhere else in the universe Mafia is played that I'm not getting?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:18 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:13 pm Adjust behavior accordingly ... as in, maybe night kill him? Weren't you just saying you don't understand what I was saying about that?

No. What I am talking about has nothing to do with night kills. I am saying that there are responsive capacities to whatever reads Epi might derive from his exercise. He might have certain expectations for how it will be handled or treated in this thread, and to tip off those expectations in any way neutralizes his ability to take advantage of his own move. I am talking behavioral adjustments by the mafia team in the game thread where he can see them.

I am less suspicious of you now that I was a few hours ago, so this doesn't need to remain a constant argument. Go hunt, find bad guys, and I'll continue to mull it over.

I just don't see it, man. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, I'll readily admit it when I'm wrong, but I've already given a lot of reasons for why the whole thing doesn't make sense to me strategically, reasons other people have voiced without getting heat for.

dunya wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:30 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:27 pm

colonialbob wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:22 pm @ColinIsCool the only thing I don't get is why you brought the nightkill into it when we were barely halfway into the day phase?

I straight up don't understand this question any time anybody's asked it. Because the things you do in the day phase affect how the mafia perceives you and if you get nightkilled on day 1, you don't live to day 2, and you can't contribute useful information/win the game? Is there a difference in fundamental game mechanics between this site and everywhere else in the universe Mafia is played that I'm not getting?

yea, you get killed on night 1 instead of day 1. Night 1 comes after Day 1 and before Day 2.

Right right right, that's what I meant. Day 1 to Night 1 to Day 2. Still don't see why people are confused by my anticipating the future.

colonialbob wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:33 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:27 pm

colonialbob wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:22 pm @ColinIsCool the only thing I don't get is why you brought the nightkill into it when we were barely halfway into the day phase?

I straight up don't understand this question any time anybody's asked it. Because the things you do in the day phase affect how the mafia perceives you and if you get nightkilled on day 1, you don't live to day 2, and you can't contribute useful information/win the game? Is there a difference in fundamental game mechanics between this site and everywhere else in the universe Mafia is played that I'm not getting?

Because he still has ~24 hours to talk about why he asked his question and what he felt like he learned. He doesn't want to do so before everybody has responded because that skews what responses he gets.

Obviously ridiculous example: "please everybody name your favorite animal"
*answers by some but not all*
"Hey Epi why did you ask this?"
"Well see anybody who mentions a predator is scientifically proven to be mafia"
*remaining players all name fuzzy herbivores*

Did those last players respond honestly or because they knew what he waa looking for?

I guess I just don't see how those posts are going to be useful if the only thing that's happened is the lynch (I don't see how they're useful in the first place), and how when asking, I am hand-waved and given that "damn good reason" nonsense (which none of you seem to agree with, so, whateva)

dunya wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:15 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:06 pm I don't do elaborate iso analyses like some other people, I just skim it and write out general impressions, maybe with one or two quotes, so it doesn't take very long

I didn't feel that way reading your Dr. White iso today. It felt pretty comprehensive, though non-conclusive. Even after ISOing him, you refused to give a firm read on him, calling him decent overall, but leaving plenty of room to be swayed one way or the other, then asked Jimmy on what bad he saw in him. Opportunism.

Epi cases ColinIsCool, in great depth, amidst your downfall with RYMers and you take it as a lifeline to see what Epi has cooked up.

MacDougall mentions a possible RDW scumslip - you really jumped for that one. MacDougall claims it was a gag, and you back off.

WIFOM - I didn't go after Colin, because Colin is definitely town. TMI.

Voting for MacDougall when he was an easy lynch target being on holiday and all, then quickly following Long Con on the Shaman whom you drafted (which is still a question mark for me) makes two bad vote lynch decisions that look really opportunistic for you.

reeks of opportunism on all fronts this phase.

FWIW I think this is a pretty strong case.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:48 pm My one-off power is a lynch switch.

I fully intend on using that today. I am going to decide who gets lynched if I don't see a lynch poll that I like. Colin is probably going to die. dunya maybe. I am here to burn out like a firework on the fourth of July. And I am drunk. And I will be drunk tomorrow. And I do you know what drunks with fireworks do? It isn't pretty.

Well, when I come up as town it's not gonna look too great for you and I hope my team reacts accordingly.

dunya wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:46 pm I believe that was Colin's initial point against Epi (but he added some weird stuff to his argument which I'll ignore now because we're discussing this 1 point).

Anything I can address? I understand that maybe I'm not being as clear as I think I am.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:53 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:13 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:54 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:49 pm Y'all, this condescending stuff is not gonna fly, I don't need to be in this game.

I don't see what I'm not communicating here. It is really, really strange for a townie, no matter the phase, to come into the thread and advertise themselves alone as a threat to the mafia. If you really think you have an ace in the hole or a way to get a leg up, you want to disguise it innocuously. You don't want to say stuff like "if the Mafia knew what I was doing, they'd try to stop me." Well, now they know they have a good reason to try to stop you either way, so it's USELESS.

I don't intend to be condescending, so please don't take offense. I simply don't believe the argument you're putting forth here.

1.) Epignosis has a zero percent chance of being night killed on Day 1, so that we're talking about this at all is already goofy.

2.) Where is this brazen advertisement of being an imminent threat? Epignosis said he isn't going to tell you what he intends with his exercise because it would render the exercise pointless. Maybe it even is pointless. You haven't given it a chance though. Before it has ever developed, barely halfway into the day phase, you have discarded it as nothing. Why not give Epignosis time to do whatever he's doing before you make that decision? Maybe it's an hour to EOD and he still hasn't done shit. Then you can make this case more validly. It isn't that hard to fathom why this exercise might have value. First and foremost, what is the core source of this current dialogue? It's right in front of your face.

3.) The entire premise that a civilian inherently must play timidly to avoid night kills flies in the face of common sense. If you're an alignment cop, sure, be careful. Otherwise who gives a damn? The objective of this game is not to survive. It is to lynch mafia.

1) I don't understand why you think I'm worried about that. I know that doesn't happen. But what might happen if I came into this thread and said, "hey, I have a great idea to take down the mafia, but the mafia can't know about it." I'd probably be a target for the following night phase. Why not lay a little lower?

When the plan requires the participation of everyone else, how do you accomplish that while being quiet about it?

I feel like I've made this point three or four times. I think dunya made it too. You say something, literally anything other than "I've got a damn good reason for nobody to know" for reasons that I explain ... in the part of my post you are quoting.

Do y'all even read the thread or what. Let me go quote myself.