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I hear that, but you're assuming everyone will find their partners. You'd have to be pretty lucky to complete your set any time soon. Chances are, most people will never complete their set. Were I to complete my set, it would seem much more reasonable to assume that most, if not all other civilians were unable to find their sets and ergo are more people I have to survive, lessening my chances of victory.thellama73 wrote:The individuals have an incentive to acquire BTSC because no one wants to be stuck as the one team that doesn't get it if everyone else does.keys56000000000 wrote:So if Llama is right, what incentives, if any, do we have as civilians to work together? Is it mafia vs civs or mafia vs potential mafia?
I'm not convinced that Llama is right, yet. Llama, what incentive do we have to search for teammates? Once you're in a BTSC set, you're playing against everyone. You're going to have to survive every other player. Seems like when you are in a set, your overall chances of winning drop significantly. Especially those 2-player sets. Is there really any reason why we can't stick together as loose civilians? Even if some civs do search, and find their partners, we'd still have the advantage over them. At least that's how it seems to me at this early juncture.
I don't think the groups can join together. In fact it seems the groups would face each other. If you form a group, you are basically forming your own mafia team. So, rather than taking away the advantage from the mafia, you are forming your own smaller, presumably weaker mafia team. I've yet to see exactly what advantage there is to be had from forming a BTSC set.Degobunny wrote:I think we should look our partners. Not looking for your partners gives the mafia the advantage. The way I understand is if multiple groups find there partners the group's can join together and then overwhelm the mafia? I am hoping I read the rules right on that.
Lol, it seems long posts are most welcome here, I'd bet that that one of yours wasn't even of average length. But I did read it and you make good points.FZ. wrote:That was a long post, but please read
That's a good question, I don't have an answer. I can only hope that my partner/s will refrain from searching for me, and failing that, that they're unlucky and never find me. I'm personally convinced that we have a better shot of winning this if we can resist the IMO fool's-gold temptation of powers and BTSC, and stick together. We have the power to vote together, that's got to be something.Long Con wrote:So if your teammate finds you (assuming you are Civ), will you try to lynch them and avoid acquiring their card, in order to keep yourself Civ?keys56000000000 wrote:Players don't have to be in the union, I ain't forcing anybody, but just remember that if you are looking for your teammates, you're saying to the rest of us that you intend to kill us down the line. You intend to be no-good mafioso and murder us civilians. And the civilians in the union will have the numerical advantage over you and your measly one or two teammates in the lynch.
How are we going to differentiate between that civ and the mafia/civ-turned-mafia? Risky move, associating yourself with the bad guys.Long Con wrote:A Civ could bid on a property that isn't in their colour group in order to keep it out of the hands of the colour group and the baddies.FZ. wrote:Someone asked about the auctions being public and the fact that if someone bids on a property, it will out them so people will know what they are. To that, Boo answered that we can bid on other things and manipulate people into thinking whatever we want.
But....when civs bid on something, all it's going to make us think is that they got BTS which means they become sort of a mafia we need to eliminate, right? So what's the point in bidding on property which isn't yours?
IDK. You got any suspicions, Llama? I see Degobunny is against the union, so he/she must be pro-mafia! Ordinarily I'd call for his/her lynch, but it's early days yet, and while there might be civs looking to turn against us, they're still all civs at the moment, potential hearts and minds to be won over to support the union.thellama73 wrote:I'm going to hang on to my money for now. Complicated game is complicated.
Who we lynching, y'all?
Fair enough. The point I'm trying to make is, if you're looking for your BTSC teammates in order to form a new group, you're playing against the civs. Against me. That makes you a candidate for future lynches.thellama73 wrote:I don't really have any suspicions yet. I don't like the whole "nobody use your night powers" movement, though. I don't like it one bit.keys56000000000 wrote:IDK. You got any suspicions, Llama? I see Degobunny is against the union, so he/she must be pro-mafia! Ordinarily I'd call for his/her lynch, but it's early days yet, and while there might be civs looking to turn against us, they're still all civs at the moment, potential hearts and minds to be won over to support the union.thellama73 wrote:I'm going to hang on to my money for now. Complicated game is complicated.
Who we lynching, y'all?
You can lynch me if you want, but I'm a good civilian. I don't want to be in a little team. I want to stick with the herd. It seems clear that your position on the matter is different, therefore you're suspect. Idk what you want me to say to you. Go start a mafia team against me and the rest of us, I won't lynch you? What are you expecting to happen?thellama73 wrote:Shall we vote to lynch each other then? That might be fun.keys56000000000 wrote:Fair enough. The point I'm trying to make is, if you're looking for your BTSC teammates in order to form a new group, you're playing against the civs. Against me. That makes you a candidate for future lynches.thellama73 wrote:I don't really have any suspicions yet. I don't like the whole "nobody use your night powers" movement, though. I don't like it one bit.keys56000000000 wrote:IDK. You got any suspicions, Llama? I see Degobunny is against the union, so he/she must be pro-mafia! Ordinarily I'd call for his/her lynch, but it's early days yet, and while there might be civs looking to turn against us, they're still all civs at the moment, potential hearts and minds to be won over to support the union.thellama73 wrote:I'm going to hang on to my money for now. Complicated game is complicated.
Who we lynching, y'all?
I'm just trying to take this game seriously, Llama. If that's not appreciated, I'll find something else to do.thellama73 wrote:I'm not expecting anything. I just asked if you wanted to trade lynch votes.keys56000000000 wrote: You can lynch me if you want, but I'm a good civilian. I don't want to be in a little team. I want to stick with the herd. It seems clear that your position on the matter is different, therefore you're suspect. Idk what you want me to say to you. Go start a mafia team against me and the rest of us, I won't lynch you? What are you expecting to happen?
I'm hoping that my fellow civs will see the benefit in sticking together. Anyone who doesn't stick with us will be forfeiting that benefit, Let me posit a scenario:Degobunny wrote: I just don't see the point for a union when we have no way of keeping track of what everyone's night actions will be. You are expecting blind faith from townies,
How would it lead to townie death? And yes I agree that unions can be corrupt, but that's taking this union metaphor too far. I don't think they prey on people who don't want to join the union, that's not my understanding of union corruption. Isn't it more that the mafia controls the unions for their own gain? The mafia can't control this union. What are they going to get us to do? All I'm suggesting is that we stay undivided. They can't manipulate that.and that sort blind faith tends to lead lots of townie death. Plus real life unions function like a mafia anyway preying on those who don't want to join the union
I hear that, but is the money really important? What they really want is to eliminate everybody. What we really want is to eliminate them. That's how the game is won, right? I have to look more at the rules and figure out exactly how important the money is..Degobunny wrote:Mafia manipulate and control games all the time. It is in there best interests to prevent monopolies from happening, cause the will run into problems when they start landing on hotels. However, I will consider what you are saying, that is the best I can do at this point.keys56000000000 wrote:Well, you too, Llama!
I'm hoping that my fellow civs will see the benefit in sticking together. Anyone who doesn't stick with us will be forfeiting that benefit, Let me posit a scenario:Degobunny wrote: I just don't see the point for a union when we have no way of keeping track of what everyone's night actions will be. You are expecting blind faith from townies,
It's day 9. We've been lucky in our lynches and have eliminated most of the mafia, there's only one or two left. There are a few civs who have found a teammate, but no one's been lucky enough to complete a set. Just as you and the other civs are poised to win the game, you find your last partner and form a team. Now it's you and one or two other players, who were about to win with the civs, and now you have to defeat the civs, some of whom have BTSC with another player but aren't yet in a complete set. It's possible you could win, but the odds will be against you. It seems like you would have been better off just sticking with them all along.
How would it lead to townie death? And yes I agree that unions can be corrupt, but that's taking this union metaphor too far. I don't think they prey on people who don't want to join the union, that's not my understanding of union corruption. Isn't it more that the mafia controls the unions for their own gain? The mafia can't control this union. What are they going to get us to do? All I'm suggesting is that we stay undivided. They can't manipulate that.and that sort blind faith tends to lead lots of townie death. Plus real life unions function like a mafia anyway preying on those who don't want to join the union
Is it in the mafia's interests to have a union in this game? Can they control us? I don't think so. I think their biggest threat is being lynched. Having extra mafia teams might even benefit them, since more mafia teams means more trouble for the remaining civs.
Ah, I missed that very important point. Yes, very important indeed. Hmmz..thellama73 wrote:The money is very important because if you run out of it, you die.
I do understand that, but saying "Nash equilibrium" doesn't prove that it's in the civilians best interests to find their partners. Our best move is yet to be established.thellama73 wrote:You don't. You just need to understand that when individual interest trumps group interest and there's no way to detect cheaters, individual interest wins out.keys56000000000 wrote:Llama, it's cool that you're invoking Nash equilibrium, I dig it. However, unless you can show me the spreadsheets where you've gone over every potential scenario in the game, just saying "game theory" doesn't actually mean much. You need to have studied this particular game to know its theory.
Right! And the more players stay civ, the stronger our lynch power is.I think it's a very, very, very poorly considered strategy to focus our lynches on trying to prevent Monopolies. The mafia can prevent monopolies just fine using their kills. Lynches are the only way we have to kill off the railroads and utilities.
You keep saying "we", but if you go the way you want to go, there is no we.thellama73 wrote:I don't understand your point.FZ. wrote:Isn't that what we have in most mafia games?thellama73 wrote:You don't. You just need to understand that when individual interest trumps group interest and there's no way to detect cheaters, individual interest wins out.keys56000000000 wrote:Llama, it's cool that you're invoking Nash equilibrium, I dig it. However, unless you can show me the spreadsheets where you've gone over every potential scenario in the game, just saying "game theory" doesn't actually mean much. You need to have studied this particular game to know its theory.
I think it's a very, very, very poorly considered strategy to focus our lynches on trying to prevent Monopolies. The mafia can prevent monopolies just fine using their kills. Lynches are the only way we have to kill off the railroads and utilities.
I am distressed at the direction this thread has gone. I am barely paying attention to this game with all the other stuff I have going on, and it took me exactly two seconds to see why the "civs ignore all the gifts the host has given you" strategy is terrible. I can't believe how easily the flock is being led into bad decisions.
Look, building hotels is the only way we can get money (barring a few chance cards and an occasional pass go.) The Mafia have ample ability to make money and use it to buy property and other goodies, while at the same time depleting our money. If we run out of money, we die. This strategy hands victory to the railroads and utilities. Please think about it for two seconds before posting a reactionary NO U response. You, MM, Long Con, and Keys are working on behalf of the baddies with this sort of talk.
Depends. Is it better to be a civilian with a BTSC partner than a lone civ? Yes. Is it better to be a 2-man indy team against the mafia and the civs? Maybe not.It is better for the individual to have BTSC than not to have BSTC.
I guess insofar as they have a cushion against dying, yes, this is probably true. Once hotels are up, poor civvies are running the gauntlet.It is better for the individual to be able to build hotels and make money, than not to be able to do that.
I doubt that many people will find their partners. You get one shot per night and there's 28 players. Maybe one or two sets will form, if everyone searched. I remained entirely unconvinced that civs will find themselves surrounded by teams.It is better for the individual not to be one of a handful who did not bother to try to find their teammates, facing a series of LMS teams in addition to baddies.
There's only 6 baddies. All we have to do is lynch them before we run out of money. You might find that when you're in your team against the rest of us, that hotel isn't enough to win it. Maybe civs will get lucky and not land on it.To me, it is abundantly clear that civvies who neglect to find their partners are acting against their own interests.
I don't think anyone was accusing anyone of actually cheating. There was a conversation about nobody finding their partners, and someone pointed out that people will "cheat" and still try to find them. Niot that that actual dispicable cheating is or was or will occur.S~V~S wrote:At this point I am most leery of people implying that those who disagree with their strategy of not searching are bad. I think that keeping the civvies as unempowered vanillas with no earning ability plays right into the hands of the rails/utilities.
Even the implication that playing the game within its design is somehow "cheating" feels very off to me.
Once you're in a team, you are the baddies.juliets wrote:Wouldn't people still be posting because it's in everyone's interest to try and find and lynch the baddies?
Boo says you can't win with the civs. I agree that the team with the NK takes priority, but if civs can't win with you, they need to lynch you.thellama73 wrote:No you're not. You don't have a kill.keys56000000000 wrote:Once you're in a team, you are the baddies.juliets wrote:Wouldn't people still be posting because it's in everyone's interest to try and find and lynch the baddies?
That's cool, you can go ahead and do that and if you eliminate the mafia, awesome. But then y'know you are next to be lynched, right? It'll be obvious that you're in a set.birdwithteeth11 wrote:Alright. Here's my full opinion on the two hot-button issues so far.
1) In terms of searching for people, I am going to try and search for my teammates every night. I know most of us play for fun (I would hope all of us do), but we also play to win the game. Having a team of people whom I know can help me, and help add to potential collected money in terms of hotels, sounds a heck of a lot more appealing than a vanilla civ with no powers and throwing darts in the dark. The utilities have already learned the roles of 3 players so far, and the railroads learn who each others is once they find each other. Plus having a NK they get to share. So to me, the best long-term strategy is to search for teammates.
2) I will consider bidding on properties, if one comes up that I feel is worth owning. The way I look at it, I'd rather get rid of the baddies first who either have BTSC already (Utilities) or could gain it (Railroads), and have a NK to use, over people who are vanilla civs and do not have a NK. And, as llama said, it's a huge opportunity cost we are throwing away by going after people who decide to bid often or heavily on properties. So for now, I'm more concerned about trying to find and kill baddies.
Linki @llama: I agree. There's a big difference between a mafia team and a LMS team in my opinion.
Sorry Dego, yes everyone is in a set, I meant the team that is formed when a set is united. Boo said that they cannot win with the civs and that the civs cannot win with them, so they must be lynched at some stage.Degobunny wrote:What do you mean by set. isn't everyone technically in a potential set?keys56000000000 wrote:That's cool, you can go ahead and do that and if you eliminate the mafia, awesome. But then y'know you are next to be lynched, right? It'll be obvious that you're in a set.birdwithteeth11 wrote:Alright. Here's my full opinion on the two hot-button issues so far.
1) In terms of searching for people, I am going to try and search for my teammates every night. I know most of us play for fun (I would hope all of us do), but we also play to win the game. Having a team of people whom I know can help me, and help add to potential collected money in terms of hotels, sounds a heck of a lot more appealing than a vanilla civ with no powers and throwing darts in the dark. The utilities have already learned the roles of 3 players so far, and the railroads learn who each others is once they find each other. Plus having a NK they get to share. So to me, the best long-term strategy is to search for teammates.
2) I will consider bidding on properties, if one comes up that I feel is worth owning. The way I look at it, I'd rather get rid of the baddies first who either have BTSC already (Utilities) or could gain it (Railroads), and have a NK to use, over people who are vanilla civs and do not have a NK. And, as llama said, it's a huge opportunity cost we are throwing away by going after people who decide to bid often or heavily on properties. So for now, I'm more concerned about trying to find and kill baddies.
Linki @llama: I agree. There's a big difference between a mafia team and a LMS team in my opinion.
I introduced the idea of a union because I thought it would be a fun tie-in with the game's theme, and what I thought might have been a good strategy. I pushed it because it wouldn't work without support. Like I said to Nijuukyugou, I don't know where you got the impression that I'm telling you what to do. I don't know if that's you being overdramatic, or if you can actually go back and quote where I've told you what to do. I've just stated the plain fact that new teams aren't civilians. Am I losing my mind here? I've certainly never intended to imply that if you do not do things my way I will stop playing. To be frank, the constant bullshit misunderstandings -- I'm asking people to cheat, I'm forcing people to play my way, I'm trying to take the fun out of the game -- is getting irksome and is why I would consider not playing here.S~V~S wrote:Keys it almost seems like you are implying that we do it your way, or you are going to stop playing? Before you said you would stop posting, or might as well stop posting, now you are saying you will find somewhere else to play? I am not understanding your meaning in saying this. We do it your way or you won't play anymore?
Incidentally. Not coincidentally.keys56000000000 wrote:Nice. I want to remind Boo that I changed my vote to Made in the thread, since I intend on bidding on this item. Coincidentally, how long is bidding open for?
Nevermindboo wrote:Like power bids, it will end 10 minutes prior to the end of the phase (so 9:50pm EST tomorrow night).
..Elliot? :oHedgeowl wrote:Frick $90
169 dollarI didn't vote because I didn't know whom to vote for. Just a run-of-the-mill freudian slip. Yes I am a civ, at the moment at least.juliets wrote:keys, why didn't you vote? And who would you have voted for? And why did you wish FZ would flip civ? Aren't you a civ?keys56000000000 wrote:Well I don't agree with the reasoning behind a FZ lynch, but it doesn't look like anyone else can get the majority now, so it is what it is. Hopefully FZ will flip civ.
Llama), or in other words, figure out what their best move is, so I doubt he feels like I've attempted to circumvent all the fun he's planned for us.Boo, you feel that way? Cause I can be replaced. Seriously. Let someone else come and play properly, or whatever.It would go against boo's concept of what Monopoly Mafia is about,
Civs are the vast majority in this game - you hope they'll land on your hotel? I can see how having a hotel would help you, but how will it help us? And will it really help you?LC wrote: The worst I could do is build hotels and hope someone lands on them.
I feel like I keep repeating myself here. LC knows that I'm not specifically advocating that, but he keeps repeating it. Long Con, you can read, right? Words, I mean. Written in English. Right? Je peux passer au français si cela aide? Of course you can read. Because I know you know I don't mean to kill civs. That I mean to kill mafia. My whole lame plan revolved around that crux. But you keep denying it. I don't expect you to be so unreasonable - the only explanation is that you are a mafioso.Long Con wrote:I'm also thinking that those supporting it could have shady motives. I mean, they're actively pushing a plan that specifically advocates going after prize winners and Civvies who have found BTSC partners over looking for baddies.fingersplints wrote:I'm not understanding the case on LC. Boogs pushing it seems incredibly sketchy. His motivation and suspicion seems unclear. I haven't had much time to read your posts about it tbh. I've had little time outside of work though, and what I had was focused on the Zelda game. Since I am no longer in that hopefully I can get my head fully into this one and look at that some.
People didn't like what I had to say. The one person who did was lynched for it. A few people have accused me of disrespecting Boo and his game. It continues to be said. So, yeah. Now I'm just trying to be polite and run out the clock so the game keep moving. And what is there to say, anyway? The consensus seems to be that we're all intending to ditch the civs, if we live long enough. So why communicate anything to my competitors?I'm interested in hearing from keys, as he's been very quiet after the searching debate and not said much about suspicions.
