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by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:30 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

I am most tempted to vote for either high poster lynch or L/Light lynch. High poster lynch appeal to me because I can rest assured I will likely be among those whose vote counts the most, but L/Light lynch is just too interesting of an opportunity to pass up.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:34 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

The question is "How to use the lynch note to best catch Kira."

I believe that pitting L and Kira against each other to match wits this early is our best bet to do just that. So I will be voting for the L/Kira lynch option. I think it provides us with the most information to work with and I intend to do just that.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:23 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Here are my basic thoughts on all eight options.

1) Normal Lynch - Likely to be easier for mafias and BTSCs to either manipulate or get information from. (For example, if L is lynched as a result of the +5 vote, that would kill L and expose the +5 guy to the mafia). Sure, this can be considered a "safe" option, but playing it safe isn't going to win the civvies the game. This is essentially a blank slate that is subject to vote manipulations and easy deductions, which in my view makes it one of the more dangerous options.

2) Secret Ballot Lynch - Obviously not even close to on the table. It removes too much information from the thread, allows mafia to blend in more, and cripples the civvie effort.

3) High Poster Influenced Lynch - Encourages activity, but far too easy for the mafia to take advantage (post a lot, and gain the benefit of driving discussion AND having heavily weighed votes)

4) Low Poster Influenced Lynch - Encourages *inactivity*, which is bullshit. The mafia could blend into the background and get rewarded for it, which I don't see as a good way to go about things.

5) Early Voter Influenced Lynch - AKA the Bandwagon option, early votes would count more, therefore people would be forced to limit their views and votes to the earliest of candidates for fear of not having their vote matter in the grand scheme. An easy work around would be something like in Grimms mafia when discussion was during the Night, but this still leaves a great deal of room for abuse and manipulation.

6) Late Voter Influenced Lynch - AKA the Team Save option. gives far too much power to anyone who votes late, such as a teammate waiting to save a mafia. This would make it incredibly difficult to actually lynch any mafia when we end up catching one.

7) L and Light Influenced Lynch - Removes a lot of the control/influence from the mafia in terms of going into a lynch with a battle plan, and gives the civvies some control as well, with L deciding who he trusts at any given time. In addition to providing insight into both L and Kiras mindsets, it allows the thread to deduce information from lynches, and provides the opportunity for clever gameplay. As I see it, this is the clear winner and best option.

8) Nihilistic Random Lynch - While it shares similarities with the L/Light lynch option in that in prevents the mafia from having a set "plan" in terms of how to go about a lynch, it also takes a lot of the control and information away from the civvies as well. There is nothing to deduce from "random lynches". It has little informational benefit.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:30 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

boo wrote:I'm kind of surprised people find the L/Light one so appealing. Light starts with BTSC with one other person and has the potential for more from the sounds of the team description. That to me firmly gives the advantage of how that one works to Light, right? I mean, it could be interesting, sure, but it just seems overly risky. I mean, for the person who is L, if they are feeling extremely confident about being on their A-game, I suppose the option would make sense, but that seems like a big leap of faith for any other non-L detective to make.

some linki, will post then read
The way I see it, having an idea at any given point of who L and Light decide to put on their list and leave off their list gives us the best chance of finding Kira. It may seem risky, allowing Kira to put his team on his list and therefore make sure their votes count at least for one, but if its played right, and if we think it through right, The L/Kira option could lead us into finding more evidence against mafia. :shrug:
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:34 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

S~V~S wrote:It does not say we know what they decide:
7) L and Light Influenced Lynch - Every player casts a public vote; however, not every player's vote counts. L secretly determines which half of the players' votes will count and which half will not count. Light does the same. The players that appear on both "count" lists have heavily weighted votes. Players on only one "count" list have a normal vote. Players who do not appear on either list will not have their votes counted.
Am I being obtuse (very realistic possibility)?
We can figure out what they decide, is what I mean. Maybe not immediately, but the further on we go, these things can be put together if we do our homework. :D
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:41 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Ricochet wrote:Woo game! And intriguing start with it.

I was going to say I'd easily go with an experimental type of lynching for a pretty experimental game, out of which I'd prefer the L/Kira type over Secret or Nihilistic, which do not seem to me like they'd be of any help in vote analysis. But now there's a worrying detail about the L/Kira type and I'd like everyone to say if it makes sense or not:

Both L and Kira (note: I'll usually have the simple habit to refer to Light as Kira; if there are strong disagreements with this, I'll use Light) start in BTSC with another player (Watari/Ryuk); it's safe to assume both L and Kira will always add themselves and their companions in their choices. None of the sides have collective BTSC by default right now, but the Yotsuba and Kira groups are hinted to develop further in the game. I tend to believe the secrets to the roles will be very much related to the story / character traits, which means, and I hope it's no hinting in saying this, that L might get in touch with a couple more detectives, but over at Kira, his main sympathizers might either be handed DN (Death Notes) without finding out the identity of Kira, or gain contact with him. That would put the Kira camp in a bit more advantage, if the L/Kira lynch-type will truly be adopted over a long period of time.

Then again, L could compensate with his role-checking and be more aware than Kira on whom he should pick, over the same extended period of time.

But all this makes me less sure of the whole L/Kira type. It's the most temping, but also troublesome in figuring out which side is getting the advantage in it.

I can sleep on it, though (as in literally, past 1am here), and hear more thoughts before voting.

Major linkage: Ok, wow. I think a few just picked up on what I did too.
This is a good point, that both L and Light have at least one person they can trust to put on their lists (Watari/Ryuk) Along with themselves. And L's role check (having a percentage of who Kira could be) would be his biggest influence in picking his list, I assume. So there is a balance there. As Light gains his followers, L gains an idea of who to trust and therefore the lists start to take shape in a meaningful way.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:59 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

boo wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
boo wrote:I'm kind of surprised people find the L/Light one so appealing. Light starts with BTSC with one other person and has the potential for more from the sounds of the team description. That to me firmly gives the advantage of how that one works to Light, right? I mean, it could be interesting, sure, but it just seems overly risky. I mean, for the person who is L, if they are feeling extremely confident about being on their A-game, I suppose the option would make sense, but that seems like a big leap of faith for any other non-L detective to make.

some linki, will post then read
The way I see it, having an idea at any given point of who L and Light decide to put on their list and leave off their list gives us the best chance of finding Kira. It may seem risky, allowing Kira to put his team on his list and therefore make sure their votes count at least for one, but if its played right, and if we think it through right, The L/Kira option could lead us into finding more evidence against mafia. :shrug:
I mean, I get where you're coming from, and your argument for it is pretty much the sum of what makes it a good option. I just think there are too many variables that make the risk of it higher than the reward. First, what happens if L dies (which, in the early game, seems more likely to me than a baddie with BTSC going down)? Maybe it passes down, maybe Light takes a ton of control, maybe it will just be for D1 so it doesn't matter, but that right off that bat is a big enough issue that I don't like or trust the option.

From his description, Light is manipulative, so lynch manipulation in the role would seem fitting. Then there's some BTSC with the potential of more (it sounds like). It just takes a lot less effort for Light to use that option to control lynches and get away with it (a few lynches in would give Light and L a far better idea of how the weighting works than it would the thread at large, and that information would then be open to be used to greater effect to a baddie team than a lone civvie imo).

I dunno, you're right that it could work, if L is really on top of things, manages to trust and mistrust the right people without actually giving anything anyway within the thread, predicts Light correctly to manage the list in the right way, and does all of that without painting a target on their back... but that seems a lot of pressure to put on one person, and if lynches were to be run that way the whole game, I just don't see it paying off. If it were a smaller and typical baddie team instead of a team of 7 (with another team of 7), L, assuming they did an awesome job, could feasibly play it how you're hoping for, in the best case scenario. But given the baddie team set up, it just doesn't seem possible to me (I mean, if you were L, would you want what you're hoping from them to be on them all game, assuming the option decides how lynches work the entire game), cause I really wouldn't.

Admittedly its a bit of a risk, but I think it will pay off in the end. Light is as you said, already likely working with lynch manipulations. And therefore I think that the L/Light lynch option is the best way to in some measure, counteract that. I think this because:

It gives L the same authority as Light, at theoretically the same pace. Going off the idea that L and Light both start with themselves and one other person they will trust, and then as the game progresses they will each have an idea of who to leave off and put on their lists. Light will accomplish this through (assumed, likely) BTSC with his team. L will accomplish this through checking people at night and basing his trust in them off the percentage that they are Kira. Higher percentages are likely not to be on his list, lower percentages are. MP has said he will be balancing the game well, and this mechanic (to me) illustrates that balance.

Now, to address your valid point regarding what happens if L is killed. I would assume that either Near or Mello would inherit the civvie side of the list, though I could be wrong. Just basing that theory off the idea in the roles of them being the possible successors to L. If all three are dead? (meaning L, Mello, and Near) Watari. If All Four are dead? Someone from the SPK or task force. Of those options I just hashed out, Watari actually seems like he would fit as the first and best option to inherit this lynch responsibility. Of course, the same could be said of Light (what happens when/if Light is killed? who would take up the mantle? Probably Second Kira.) My point being that there are checks and balances undoubtedly in place to ensure that L and the civvies have a legit and fair shot with this option in play.

The double bluffing and deductions and intricacies of this option are what appeal to me, as well. I don't think its quite as cut and dry as Light putting his team on his list every time and therefore having a clear advantage. While it does place a lot of responsibility on L's shoulders, it does the same for Light and puts him at a very scary position, giving him one more thing to worry about possibly costing him the game if he slips up or picks wrong.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:59 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

boo wrote:Why are you guys saying L and Watari have BTSC? The role just says Watari knows L's identity, which to me implies Watari knows who has the role of L, not that L knows who Watari is or has a line of communication open with them.
Linki - Oops. Missed that.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:00 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Though given the whole "helps him with his operations" thing in Watari's role, its likely they share BTSC, (Also, both have secrets)
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:05 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

thellama73 wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:Though given the whole "helps him with his operations" thing in Watari's role, its likely they share BTSC, (Also, both have secrets)
It's pretty likely that Light can kill three people every night, because secrets.
I'm not sure if its as much of a logical leap to assume that Watari and L have BTSC. The evidence is there. Its certainly possible they don't. but:

1) MP has said this game is balanced very well.
2) Light has BTSC with Ryuk
3) Watari is linked very closely with L in the show
4) The language in Watari's role suggest cooperation at the very least.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:17 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

boo wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:Though given the whole "helps him with his operations" thing in Watari's role, its likely they share BTSC, (Also, both have secrets)
It's pretty likely that Light can kill three people every night, because secrets.
I'm not sure if its as much of a logical leap to assume that Watari and L have BTSC. The evidence is there. Its certainly possible they don't. but:

1) MP has said this game is balanced very well.
2) Light has BTSC with Ryuk
3) Watari is linked very closely with L in the show
4) The language in Watari's role suggest cooperation at the very least.
1) Ok? There's already establish over civvie BTSC.
2) See 1.
3) So for the very balanced game, wouldn't potential BTSC between the two of them like the baddies seem to be capable of be more balanced?
4) I mean, I'm less surprised by cooperation between civvie roles* than I am between the lack of it with a role listed with the detectives (*who for the sake of stream-lining things I think we'll probably be referring to as the civvies, right?) that doesn't seem to cooperate with L (I mean, 2 actually Hideki and Mello both have some pretty serious anti-L potential).
You make good points, and I can obviously see the risk in going with the L/Light option vs. the traditional lynch option. High risk does not translate to very dangerous/disadvantageous in my view though.

I can ultimately see where you're coming from and I think that while neither of us are going to budge on our picks obviously, at the least we are both presenting very good discussion for anyone who has yet to vote.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:35 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

@Boo in regards to Ricochet, maybe I am biased (because for one I agree with him that the L/Light option is good, and I've seen Death Note and therefore understand a lot of the connections he's making regarding the lore of the show and how the lore could fit with the secrets) But I don't necessarily see anything quite yet that jumps out and says "Ricochet is bad." I think it would be premature to lock myself in on anything right now, and I don't view in particular Epignosis's suspicions of Ricochet as anything that holds water right now.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:33 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

thellama73 wrote:I can see both sides of it. I'm happy with my vote, but won't be disappointed if normal lynch wins either.
Ultimately I understand if a normal lynch wins out, But I'm very hopeful that it doesn't. Every bit of me wants this game to be challenging and unique and fun and I'm literally electric with excitement at the idea of that L/Light mechanic.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:39 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

While I'm here I also want to stress that a "vanilla" lynch affords Light's team and the mafia an advantage not just in their vote manipulations and teamvoting and so on, but in that L is vulnerable to that +5 deathshot from Ide. At least with L buffing/nerfing votes, he can afford himself some protection against Ide. Does that make sense? Again, it is a very tough nut to crack, a question of meta almost. Does L try and keep Ide off his list? Does Light try and put Ide *ON* the list, at the risk of weakening his list by buffing a civ? It's all very interesting to me.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:48 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

birdwithteeth11 wrote:Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting! :fiesta:

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.
If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:55 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

birdwithteeth11 wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting! :fiesta:

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.
If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.
I get that we might have more to work with with voting patterns and lynches. But wouldn't it technically take longer to gather said info since only L and Light are the two who know which votes do and don't count? Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?
Initially, only L and Light know who are on their individual lists. But after the lynches, I'm certain it could be deduced who was on one list, no lists, or both lists. Maybe not specifically which players, but it would be possible to say "someone in this group" or something. For example, if Someone in second place is lynched, its likely that that person had boosted voters, or the first place guy had negated voters, or both. It's a bit of homework, but its not impossible.

One more thing before I go: Vanilla lynching affords us one significant disadvantage that i can see, and that is that in the event of lynch fuckery, we will have basically no idea how or why the lynch went tits up. The L/Light mechanic gives us a known quanitity, from which deductions can be made and conclusions drawn.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:40 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Snowman wrote:Sorry for the delay in getting here. When I finally realized things were hoppin in here, I started reading the 2000 pages of backstory.

So...who's getting lynched?
Any reason you voted for the Early voters lynch option?
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:42 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

boo wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting! :fiesta:

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.
If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.
I get that we might have more to work with with voting patterns and lynches. But wouldn't it technically take longer to gather said info since only L and Light are the two who know which votes do and don't count? Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?
Initially, only L and Light know who are on their individual lists. But after the lynches, I'm certain it could be deduced who was on one list, no lists, or both lists. Maybe not specifically which players, but it would be possible to say "someone in this group" or something. For example, if Someone in second place is lynched, its likely that that person had boosted voters, or the first place guy had negated voters, or both. It's a bit of homework, but its not impossible.

One more thing before I go: Vanilla lynching affords us one significant disadvantage that i can see, and that is that in the event of lynch fuckery, we will have basically no idea how or why the lynch went tits up. The L/Light mechanic gives us a known quanitity, from which deductions can be made and conclusions drawn.
Except if roles have lynch manipulation included in their secrets, it would be unreasonable to undo all of that with the effects of a D0 poll making those powers worthless. It seems to me you're assuming stuff like the +5 vote would somehow be negated in the L/Light choice, but I don't see why you think that's the case since including lynch manipulation in roles only to allow it to become potentially irrelevant doesn't seem like something MP would do. So the known quantity wouldn't be the case at all, it would just be something else to mess up with understanding lynch results.

I also think you're putting way to much trust in one civvie. If L ends up trusting bad information, going after the wrong people, trusting the wrong people, etc, going with L/Light would let Light run every lynch however they want. The whole advantage civvies have over baddies is numbers, and while that's less true in this game than a typical one, it is still the case assuming the two teams of 7 need each other dead to win. Letting L have the kind of power that option would give them would essentially undo the numerical advantage and instead rely entirely upon their judgement, and especially in the early game, that would likely lead to the death of civvies if there are even small errors in judgement on L's part. Then, unlike a normal game where civvies botching early lynches is normal and can be recovered from, once a few are out of, Light can pretty much run lynches however they like, especially if they can sus out who L is (which, imo, would be easier than normally figuring out a persons role, since they'll have the most accurate idea of both lists) and then spin that to their advantage by not killing L until as many other civvies are dead as possible.

All that to say, I have more trust in the masses than I do letting lynches be decided 50/50 by a baddie and a civvie, with the baddie imo holding the information advantage, especially in the early game.

I think it really needs to come down to people putting themselves in the shoes of the two roles. If I were L and the option won, I wouldn't be pleased with the responsibility of having my judgement become so important to the point of other civvies judgement and choices becoming irrelevant at my whim (not just civvies ofc, but it would be mostly blind luck to get the right people on my list or not). On the other hand, as Light, I would be more than happy to have that kind of early game power, since I can effectively use it to keep myself from getting lynched as long as I can get through D1 and get proper reads on the minds of people, and I really don't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't one of 7 out of 27 roles.
If L works out who Ide is, or at least who Ide is NOT, and has people who support him/don't suspect him in the thread, buffing their votes by placing them on the list will help negate Ide's vote should Ide decide to vote for L. That's how I view it, anyway. And giving Light the ability to make the entire mafia uberstrong voters doesn't seem like something MP would do willy nilly either.

My point is exactly that. Light and probably some other people have secret vote manipulation and therefore carry an advantage. the L/Light list mechanic forces Light to have to think and rethink and puts a wrench in some of that manipulation by valuing/devaluing votes. It also allows L and the civvies to buff their own votes. Don't forget, Light has to put HALF the list of players on his list. He has to. Which means even if he does have BTSC with his team eventually, more often than not he's likely to buff at least a few civvies in the early stages of things.
by DharmaHelper
Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:59 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

boo wrote:Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.
Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.

For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:18 am
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

boo wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
boo wrote:Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.
Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.

For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.
I don't agree that it's cynicism. Mafia have an easier time controlling things that go on outside of the thread because that is the inherent advantage of being mafia. This option brings more of the control of lynches outside of the thread, and is therefore inherently to the advantage of the mafia. It requires a higher degree of luck and skill to be used effectively by L than it does by Light, and if L demonstrates that luck and skill early on, then Light can use the old stand by of just night killing the problem out of existence to get back on track. If L does not demonstrate (or have) that luck and skill, then the mafia can quickly control the game to the point where the other team may be a concern (balance), but the civvie chance of recovery is pretty much zero.
Assuming Light can A) Find and B) Successfully NK L

How does L making poor judgement calls early translate into those two things being any more/ any less likely? I disagree that mafia are somehow going to be "better" at this because it happens outside of the thread. I also disagree that this is a strictly outside of the thread occurrence. As I've said it may take some legwork but the lynch votes can be used to figure out who was on what list if any, and that information can be used to damage Light.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:34 am
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

boo wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
boo wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
boo wrote:Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.
Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.

For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.
I don't agree that it's cynicism. Mafia have an easier time controlling things that go on outside of the thread because that is the inherent advantage of being mafia. This option brings more of the control of lynches outside of the thread, and is therefore inherently to the advantage of the mafia. It requires a higher degree of luck and skill to be used effectively by L than it does by Light, and if L demonstrates that luck and skill early on, then Light can use the old stand by of just night killing the problem out of existence to get back on track. If L does not demonstrate (or have) that luck and skill, then the mafia can quickly control the game to the point where the other team may be a concern (balance), but the civvie chance of recovery is pretty much zero.
Assuming Light can A) Find and B) Successfully NK L

How does L making poor judgement calls early translate into those two things being any more/ any less likely? I disagree that mafia are somehow going to be "better" at this because it happens outside of the thread. I also disagree that this is a strictly outside of the thread occurrence. As I've said it may take some legwork but the lynch votes can be used to figure out who was on what list if any, and that information can be used to damage Light.
Yes.

It doesn't. L making poor judgement calls mean Light doesn't need to kill them. L making good judgement calls will be reflected by the result of the lynches, and I believe would make it easier to find L. Killing them would then just be a matter of timing.

I don't agree with the idea that it would be more useful to the civs and help them find Light. They can't know who put who on which list or any of that, so unless Light or their started BTSC partner got lynched, I don't see what information you could expect to get from an L/Light controlled lynch that would put you in a better situation than a lynch decided everyone equally (once manipulation is accounted for, which I think is easier without the list further muddying things up).
What I mean is it is a stepping stone. It is another piece of the puzzle that can be added to other evidence to form cases. Obviously on its own it isn't going to yield 100% results, but i think that again, it has the potential to be a very useful tool in gathering information.

And I'm still not getting how it puts L in Lights crosshairs. Light only knows (as far as I can tell) who he puts on HIS list. So, to figure out the other half of that equation (who L put on his list, and who ended up on neither list or both) Light is at just as much of a disadvantage as L. And this assumes that Light and L are not careful in who they place on their lists. There are measures in place and tactics that can be used to conceal L's motives. Taking that into consideration, finding L is just as difficult for Light as finding Light would be for the civs.

The question of balance comes up a lot. Do you honestly think MP would even give us the option of picking a lynch mechanic that all but guaranteed L would be found and killed immediately? That does not seem balanced to me.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:44 am
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

boo wrote:I don't know DH, I'm starting to think you're just reaching for things even you don't believe because you'd like to be right and win the argument.

Or I'm just tired and no longer following you.

Either way, I've said everything I actually have to say without repeating myself (and then some :P), and now we've reached a point where I feel like we're going in circles and just giving people things to disinterestedly skim read. But I think we've hammered out both options and why they work and don't to the fullest extent that I have anything useful to add, so until other people have new ideas to share I think I'm done.
Alright man, fair enough. For what its worth I'm just trying to be thorough. I did enjoy getting to hammer out the options with you.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:23 am
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Long Con wrote:Can someone explain exactly what a Shinigami is? I think it's a supernatural entity of some kind.. a guardian? They have Death Notes? And Kira stole one from a Shinigami, or found a lost one, or something?
They are God of Death, I believe. Their "Death Notes" are books. They write a persons name and manner of death, and poof. Light (Kira) found one such notebook after it had fallen into earth.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:53 am
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

thellama73 wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
Long Con wrote:Can someone explain exactly what a Shinigami is? I think it's a supernatural entity of some kind.. a guardian? They have Death Notes? And Kira stole one from a Shinigami, or found a lost one, or something?
They are God of Death, I believe. Their "Death Notes" are books. They write a persons name and manner of death, and poof. Light (Kira) found one such notebook after it had fallen into earth.
I just said that, DH!
Linki caught me. My b.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:42 am
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

S~V~S wrote:In a perfect world, the L/Light thing would work as you guys are saying. My concern (and it was the impetus behind my vote) is what if L is someone like me (disclaimer: it is NOT me)? In GoC2, I trusted one of the baddies the whole game. Let me qualify, I distrusted him Day 1, he made one remark, I turned around, and not only did i trust him the whole game, I fought for him. In another recent game, I have only voted for civvies. And I am not the only one.

If we have a couple of really slick, manipulative players as baddies and L is taken in by them... I think that is putting too much control in one civvies hands unless L is super astute. Which he may be. Or he may be someone like me, easily susceptible to flattery & letting someones demeanor influence opinion as to affiliation.

I do think L/Light might be a really powerful tool, but I also think it could also be a major fiasco, especially if Light is a stronger player than L. I already voted, and having read the points made after I went afk, I am happy with my vote.

Also, I intend to never trust DH again :P

Linki, you are speaking in sarcasm, that color is the very similar to the sarcasm font. Just an FYI :)
That would be a fine criticism if L and Light could pick and choose the size of their lists. They can't. They *have* to pick half of the playerbase. Therefore, Light can't just *give* the mafia the advantage.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:45 am
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

EBWOP: And L won't need to have a bulletproof list.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:38 am
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Epignosis wrote:For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches. :|
I think I've said everything I could possibly on the matter. But I will say that I don't think anything you've pointed out is accurate. You seem to be under the impression that Light/Kira is the only one making a list and benefiting from this mechanic, which is not the case. L makes his list as well, and as such holds a great deal of influence.

You also seem to think Light/Kira has the advantage with this system because he can just buff up his team, which again is not the case. He has to choose half of the current playerbase to place on his list, and have their votes at least count for one. Even if he picks 100% of his team to be on his list, that still leaves room on his list for civvies, and it doesn't guarantee that 100% of his team will get buffed votes. We don't even know if Light KNOWS who his team apart from Ryuk are.

And finally, I don't understand your point about potential outs. "Maybe my vote didn't count." or "Maybe my vote was worth more" Doesn't mean shit, dude. A person is accountable for who they voted for, regardless of whether or not their votes counted and for how much. Surely you understand that? The only people who know (or have an idea) of if their votes are even affected are L and Light (and Possibly Ryuk), so immediately anyone saying "Hey maybe my vote was worth more/less" is suspicious. And again, it offers no out or excuse, because regardless of the value of the vote, that person cast their vote for someone, with the expectation that it counted. This is your weakest point by far and one I am "bewildered" you'd make.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:43 am
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Turnip Head wrote:If we're losing 87% of our games, maybe that's a sign that we should try something different :p
like participating
:disappoint:
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:07 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Epignosis wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
Epignosis wrote:For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches. :|
I think I've said everything I could possibly on the matter. But I will say that I don't think anything you've pointed out is accurate. You seem to be under the impression that Light/Kira is the only one making a list and benefiting from this mechanic, which is not the case. L makes his list as well, and as such holds a great deal of influence.

You also seem to think Light/Kira has the advantage with this system because he can just buff up his team, which again is not the case. He has to choose half of the current playerbase to place on his list, and have their votes at least count for one. Even if he picks 100% of his team to be on his list, that still leaves room on his list for civvies, and it doesn't guarantee that 100% of his team will get buffed votes. We don't even know if Light KNOWS who his team apart from Ryuk are.

And finally, I don't understand your point about potential outs. "Maybe my vote didn't count." or "Maybe my vote was worth more" Doesn't mean shit, dude. A person is accountable for who they voted for, regardless of whether or not their votes counted and for how much. Surely you understand that? The only people who know (or have an idea) of if their votes are even affected are L and Light (and Possibly Ryuk), so immediately anyone saying "Hey maybe my vote was worth more/less" is suspicious. And again, it offers no out or excuse, because regardless of the value of the vote, that person cast their vote for someone, with the expectation that it counted. This is your weakest point by far and one I am "bewildered" you'd make.
Light absolutely has the advantage in the system. Any boon to Mafia only benefits Mafia, while any boon to a civilian can benefit anyone, including Mafia. A Mafia with a kill, for example, is not a threat to its own team. A civilian killer, however, can decimate the civilians.

This option also gives Light a bounty of information. He will know whose vote is potentially worthless and whose vote is potentially worth more. The very act of making this list is informative. Counter by saying that L gets this information too all you want, but as far as I can tell, L doesn't kill and Light most likely does. Once again, the information will benefit Light more than it will L.

A person is accountable for who they voted for regardless? You must be new here.
Explain to me this, Epi:

How does this system offer anyone an out as you have described it? In what way is "Maybe my vote was worth more, maybe it was worthless" a legitimate way to excuse voting for someone? Regardless of the value of the vote, the fact remains that the vote was cast. And in most cases it was cast with the expectation that it counted, and with the intent to lynch the person voted for. Maybe I'm dense and I don't get it, but I'm inviting you to explain to me what it is I'm missing.

As for the bounty of information, and how it benefits L/Light, I'm again unsure if I understand your point. It is a *requirement* that L and Light put 50% of the current playerbase on their lists. So neither list will be 100% mafia or 100% civilian, which means Light will have just as difficult a time figuring out L's intentions as L will have with Light's. Without knowing who is on the other list, L and Light are on even footing. There is legwork required to figure out even the most vague of details in order to do what you've described. Legwork that civilians are just as capable of doing, although (no offense intended) perhaps not willing to do.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:40 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:18 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Epignosis wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.
"They got lynched."

What if they didn't? How are you going to hold someone accountable when his vote didn't matter and the person for which he voted doesn't flip? I don't see why my point is difficult to understand.
Arguing with you is such an ordeal sometimes XD

Everyone is accountable for every vote they make, this is to me, common sense.

Whether you decide to vote for someone who isn't in the running, whether you decide to jump onto a bandwagon, or whether you vote for someone in order to tie/give that person the lead, (these are just examples), there are always ways someone can hold you accountable for your vote. Eventually, just about everyone is going to flip one way or the other. And that is information that we can use.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:43 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Epignosis wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.
"They got lynched."

What if they didn't? How are you going to hold someone accountable when his vote didn't matter and the person for which he voted doesn't flip? I don't see why my point is difficult to understand.
Arguing with you is such an ordeal sometimes XD

Everyone is accountable for every vote they make, this is to me, common sense.

Whether you decide to vote for someone who isn't in the running, whether you decide to jump onto a bandwagon, or whether you vote for someone in order to tie/give that person the lead, (these are just examples), there are always ways someone can hold you accountable for your vote. Eventually, just about everyone is going to flip one way or the other. And that is information that we can use.
That's nice and all, but I'd like to see you hold someone responsible when your own vote doesn't count, and you likely won't know when that is. :shrug:

There are six people so far who are cool with a killer having a say in whether or not their vote counts.
What you're saying is you want me to play the game. What you've just described is playing the game.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:55 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Gonna take a page out of Epi's book *Warning: Big post*

Using the system we have now of 27 Players, and list randomizer from Random.org

L's list will have to have 13 People on it, as will Light's. Lets assume for the sake of argument, that L and Light both put themselves on their respective lists. Since all we know for sure is that Light has BTSC with Ryuk, lets assume he puts Ryuk on his list. I will use Blue for L and Red For Light:

Right now:

L's List:
L


Light/Kira's List:
Light
Ryuk


Completely Randomizing L's list, this is the first (Blind) option I got, after having put every role in a radomizer in the order they are on the front page:

Sidoh (Independant)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)
Penber (Civvie)
Mogi (Civvie)
Watari (Civie)
Higuchi (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civvie)
Ide (Civvie)
Demegawa (Mafia 1)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Misora (Civvie)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
L(Civvie)


So, completely randomly, L's list Includes:
Civilians (Including L) 8
Mafia 1 (Light's Team) 2
Mafia 2 (Yotsuba) 3

I want to stress that this is completely randomly, and does not take into account anything other than cold numbers.

Light's List:
Sidoh (Indie)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civvie)
Light (Mafia 1)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
Ryuk (Mafia 1)
Yagami (Civvie)
Misora (Civvie)
Ooi (Mafia 2)
Near (Civvie)
Shimura (Mafia 2)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)


Lights list includes:
Civilians - 4
Mafia 1 - 3
Mafia 2 - 3
Indies - 1


The following appear on both lists and therefore have a buffed vote:
Sidoh (Independent)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civ)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
Misora (Civ)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)

The following appear on neither list and therefore do not have a vote:
Aizawa (Civ)
Ukita (Civ)
Mello (Civ)
Namikawa (Mafia 2)
Kida (Mafia 2)
Amane (Mafia 1)
Rem (Mafia 1)
Takada (Mafia 1)

Total of:
Civilians - 3
Mafia 1 - 3
Mafia 2 - 2

Which means the votes that would count on this theoretical day:
Sidoh (Independant) - Buffed
Takahashi (Mafia 2) - 5 Buffed
Penber (Civvie) - Normal
Mogi (Civvie) - Normal
Watari (Civie)- Normal
Higuchi (Mafia 2) - Normal
Matsuda (Civvie) - Buffed
Ide (Civvie) - Normal
Demegawa (Mafia 1) - Normal
Mido (Mafia 2) - Buffed
Misora (Civvie) - Buffed
Mikami (Mafia 1) - Buffed
L(Civvie) - Normal
Light (Mafia 1) - Normal
Ryuk (Mafia 1) - Normal
Yagami (Civvie) - Normal
Ooi (Mafia 2) - Normal
Near (Civvie) - Normal
Shimura (Mafia 2) - Normal


For a Grand total of:
Civilian Votes: 9 total (2 Buffed 7 Normal)
Mafia 1 Votes: 4 total (1 Buffed 3 Normal)
Mafia 2 Votes: 5 total (1 Buffed 4 Normal)
Indie Votes: 1 total (1 Buffed)

19 of 27 players have a vote that is at least Normal. Rougly 70% of the active players. Of those, 47% are civ, 21% are on Lights team, and 26% are on the Yotsuba team. Civvies have the majority vote AND the majority of buffs. This is not as advantageous for Light as it initially seems.

Admittedly this is ONE scenario, and I'm sure there are variables I did not account for, but as you can hopefully see its not as one-sided as you'd think.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:58 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

EBWOP: *JUST* realized Mikami was the 13th pick on L's list, since L had to include himself, so take that into account. Sorry. :P
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:00 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

DharmaHelper wrote:EBWOP: *JUST* realized Mikami was the 13th pick on L's list, since L had to include himself, so take that into account. Sorry. :P
Meaning Lights list should have 13 not 12 (and Penber was the 13th Light pick)

So again, not as mafia-heavy as you'd think.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:46 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Alright, whatever then. However it plays out, it plays out. I'll reserve the right to saying I told you so.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:54 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Ricochet wrote:I'm slightly confused why DH believes half of all players alive will be included in the L/Light selections. Isn't it just half of the players who vote? How can we be certain all players will vote every time (even with the participation rule being enforced)?
The way I read it, L and Light pick players whose votes will count, not votes that count after the fact.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:24 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

triceratopzeuhl wrote:
boo wrote:@Zomberella, re the earlier conversation. Boomslang and Ace = exactly the type of potential baddie L/Light voters I had in mind in this post. They've both come in, made vague statements about how it's a superior option without making any effort to add to the discussion or address the counter-arguments in any meaningful way. It's low effort choice making, and the fact that people are willing to come in and vote against a normal lynch in that style makes me think either 1) they're bad and want to fly low or 2) They work as fantastic examples as the kind of people I think having as L could potentially screw everything up. I don't mean 2) in a mean way, I just mean that if L/Light wins, L has to deep enough into the discussion so people know what that player is thinking, without doing it such a way that it becomes obvious who they are. Otherwise, there is no useful information to be learned for the other civvies, because everything would be essentially random from their perspective.

Nailed it. This + Rob's post are the number one reasons to look closely at L/Light voters in the next few days

Choo Choo.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:06 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Epi now I know you're taking the piss.
Kira and His Sympathizers win when Kira has eliminated the Detectives and subsequently starts his utopian New World.
So everyone on Light's team has a win condition that contradicts the Detectives. And the Yotsuba group (which is a mafia, buddy.) Have a secret win condition, the possibility to NK, and at least one opportunity for BTSC

Viewing (and trying to frame) these groups as any form of civ-friendly is really quite absurd.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:18 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Image
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:27 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 1]

I have several suspects in mind, which I will no doubt expound on shortly.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:43 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 0]

Epignosis wrote:Two arguments with DharmaHelper in one day? Let me see if I can summon the strength...
DharmaHelper wrote:Epi now I know you're taking the piss.
You shouldn't tell people what you "know." That's info-dumping.
DharmaHelper wrote:
Kira and His Sympathizers win when Kira has eliminated the Detectives and subsequently starts his utopian New World.
So everyone on Light's team has a win condition that contradicts the Detectives.
Correct. But detectives do not need all of that team dead to win.
But as long as at least one Kira (And that team has several Kiras) is alive, that teams win condition is literally "Kill all Detectives." That is not civ-friendly. Are you suggesting we let them be? If a connection/case can be made down the line that someone is on that team but not one of the Kiras you would advocate NOT lynching that person?
DharmaHelper wrote:And the Yotsuba group (which is a mafia, buddy.)
I disagree. The detectives do not need them dead to win (except one of their number). I do not think that they need the detectives dead to win. If you agree with me on that second premise, then the conclusion is that the Yotsuba group are not Mafia- only one of them is.

You don't "think" they need the detectives dead to win? Come on dude. They have a secret win condition which to me means that to err on the side of caution and lynch them would be best.
DharmaHelper wrote:Have a secret win condition,
Right, one that is probably not "kill all the detectives" or "eliminate all the Kira." Do you think they share the same win condition? I don't.
Somehow I doubt their win condition is "Help the civs pretty please."
DharmaHelper wrote:the possibility to NK,
A democratic Night kill, which means the Kira himself does not have direct control over this.

Ok great. But aren't all mafias technically democratic night kills? I don't understand how "Don't worry guys, they're DEMOCRATICALLY killing civs at night." makes your point any better.
DharmaHelper wrote:and at least one opportunity for BTSC
Correct. But not all of them, and not with the Kira, if my interpretation of Shingo Mido is correct.
DharmaHelper wrote:Viewing (and trying to frame) these groups as any form of civ-friendly is really quite absurd.
What "groups?" I did not argue that any "groups" are "civ-friendly." You are loading what I said with meaning that isn't there, Tomodachi.

You are advocating that the civs (Detectives) do not need certain parts of the mafias (Yotsuba and Light) dead to win the game and visa versa, which translates to me to "civ-friendly." since they can, in your view, win together.


Addendum: Now I see why I had the strength to go a second bout. It is a new Day.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:04 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 1]

My first suspect is Epi, for the following reasons:

1. His exchange with me regarding the lynch options felt to me as though he was being obtuse and intentionally missing much of the point.
2. His attack on Ricochet feels opportunistic, hasty and ill-thought out.
3. He's literally saying "Hey lets not lynch ALL the mafia, am I right guys?"

Believe it or not, Epi is not my strongest suspect and I would probably not vote for him if the lynch was right now. Having played with Epi several times I am aware that what often seems like intentional shiftyness is just him being him.

My second suspect is llama for the following reason:
1) His mocking of the "Speculation" went a tad overboard in my view and felt antagonistic. With a game like this that contains many secrets the only way for us to have any idea of anything is to staart speculating, forming ideas and theories. Don't stiffle that by trivializing it.

My third suspect is Zomberella for this post
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 20#p114692

Which I found suspicious because it reads to me like an early attempt to put suspicion on players, but not by directly accusing them. Rather, by accusing them by proxy via boo and having boo do the legwork/put the pieces of that case together, therefore making the results of the case boos responsibility.

Trice made a similar post, which I will link here:
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 58#p114856

Attempting to put suspicion onto L/Light voters (and keep it there), thereby keeping the spotlight off of any of the other voters.

Zomberella also answered a question I had for Snowman, which raised my eyebrow a bit.



As for anyone else, those are the posts that jumped out at me after a re-read. I see some merit in the TH stuff. The *votes* that jump out at me are the ones for neither the Normal or L/Light options, and as Ace pointed out its not unreasonable that some mafia went for the safe "normal" option to avoid ruffling feathers.

As for Made's suggestion that Light/Ryuk voted or the L/Light option, something I'm willing to explore I suppose. But I doubt Light would draw too much attention when its completely avoidable.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:13 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 1]

thellama73 wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote: My second suspect is llama for the following reason:
1) His mocking of the "Speculation" went a tad overboard in my view and felt antagonistic. With a game like this that contains many secrets the only way for us to have any idea of anything is to staart speculating, forming ideas and theories. Don't stiffle that by trivializing it.
If you find me suspicious because I am antagonistic, I'm surprised you haven't come gunning for me in every other game we've played together. :haha:

I take the Sherlock Holmes approach to speculation: without data, it is worse than useless. You get married to bad ideas and cling to them even when facts emerge that contradict them. If things happen that can only be explained by certain secrets, it's fine to assume those secrets to exist, but otherwise, speculation is a distraction and is counterproductive. That is my view.

I did notice Zombrella answering on Snowman's behalf, and I admit that is something that always raises my eyebrow as well.
I'm not arguing that its good or useful speculation. Everything starts somewhere, though. Would it not be better to cast a wide net, so to speak, and THEN let the facts emerge and eliminate the faultier speculations?
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:19 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 1]

thellama73 wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote: My second suspect is llama for the following reason:
1) His mocking of the "Speculation" went a tad overboard in my view and felt antagonistic. With a game like this that contains many secrets the only way for us to have any idea of anything is to staart speculating, forming ideas and theories. Don't stiffle that by trivializing it.
If you find me suspicious because I am antagonistic, I'm surprised you haven't come gunning for me in every other game we've played together. :haha:

I take the Sherlock Holmes approach to speculation: without data, it is worse than useless. You get married to bad ideas and cling to them even when facts emerge that contradict them. If things happen that can only be explained by certain secrets, it's fine to assume those secrets to exist, but otherwise, speculation is a distraction and is counterproductive. That is my view.

I did notice Zombrella answering on Snowman's behalf, and I admit that is something that always raises my eyebrow as well.
I'm not arguing that its good or useful speculation. Everything starts somewhere, though. Would it not be better to cast a wide net, so to speak, and THEN let the facts emerge and eliminate the faultier speculations?
No, it would be much worse.
I disagree, but whatever works for you. I'd much rather start with everything on the table, and develop the useful theories and throw out the useless ones.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:21 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 1]

thellama73 wrote:The proper way to investigate is this:
1. Collect all available facts.
2. Construct a theory that explains all available facts.

What too many people in this game do is this:
1. Construct a theory.
2. Collect/invent facts that support that theory.

You guys are free to disagree with me, but you're wrong, and I'm going to continue saying you're wrong.
Motherfucker I watch CBS too.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:43 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 1]

Made wrote:
thellama73 wrote:Do I have to remind people of the Game of Champions? It was not that long ago. Made was caught in a lie. A simple theory to explain that fact was that he was bad. It also turned out to be the truth.

But people were already married to theory that Made was good, so they invented imaginary "facts" concealed within the secrets to explain away his lie. This is not an effective strategy for the civvies.
Yes. Games are starting to blend together. I don't remember straight up lying that game, I only do that when i'm a civvie :P

If you're referring to my saying my vote was forced, it was a coincidence that I was bad.
That being said, it's a good idea to not count someone as civvie just because they were proven to tell the truth, i'll floated by doing that, and looking back further, Bea got away with that really hard in Monty python.
Not to get too off topic, But Made forced me to vote for him D2 so I assumed he could not be Boddy, and that Hatter had forced him to vote for whoever he voted for. Only during the bass/dom lynch did it click that Made was Suit.

Hows THAT for fitting the facts around your preferred theory, ey llama? HOISTED BY YOUR OWN PETARD!
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:27 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 1]

triceratopzeuhl wrote:
Epignosis wrote: 1. DharmaHelper pushed for the MOST anti civilian position there was. He supported a Day 0 option that could make it possible for your vote not to count, your enemy's vote to count more, and for two Mafia to have info that only one civilian would have. Operating under the assumption that all Yotsuba are bad, he gave one random case where civilians benefited from that option (and ignored hundreds of cases where they didn't).
Yeah, and then right away decided that he was going to target people who vocally disagree with him. I can understand being civ and genuinely thinking that L/Light is beneficial (though I and others obviously don't agree at all with that), but it's really not very civ to want to lynch people just for disagreeing with you. I think he's just trying to confuse the more wishy-washy civ posters and get some civ lynches before he gets killed - which would make sense if he has a non-critical baddie role.
When did I say I suspect anyone solely for them disagreeing with me? When did I say I want to lynch these dissenters? Please point this out.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:37 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 1]

triceratopzeuhl wrote:well I was referring to this:
DharmaHelper wrote: Trice made a similar post, which I will link here:
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 58#p114856

Attempting to put suspicion onto L/Light voters (and keep it there), thereby keeping the spotlight off of any of the other voters.
Which is a deliberate misinterpretation of what I said, there's nothing in my post about keeping spotlight off anybody at all. You'll notice I'm still waiting for Russ and Snowman to explain their votes.

I may have misread your tone though, could be honest mistake on your part but it sounds more like you're mad that I didn't support L/Light
My turn to clarify. What you said was "This is the #1 reason to look at L/Light voters over the next few days." (Paraphrasing because I'm typing up another post and dont feel like opening another tab to get the exact quote, but feel free to correct me.

What I took out of that was that you wanted to dial in on L/Light voters specifically (something that would take effort and attention from elsewhere) And secondly, that you wanted to carry this over multiple days of discussion. Focusing on something like that for that long raised my eyebrow. It has nothing to do with me being mad at your vote.
by DharmaHelper
Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:49 pm
Forum: Previous Jobs
Topic: Death Note Mafia [END]
Replies: 7847
Views: 156406

Re: Death Note Mafia [DAY 1]

Epignosis wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:My first suspect is Epi, for the following reasons:

1. His exchange with me regarding the lynch options felt to me as though he was being obtuse and intentionally missing much of the point.
2. His attack on Ricochet feels opportunistic, hasty and ill-thought out.
3. He's literally saying "Hey lets not lynch ALL the mafia, am I right guys?"

Believe it or not, Epi is not my strongest suspect and I would probably not vote for him if the lynch was right now. Having played with Epi several times I am aware that what often seems like intentional shiftyness is just him being him.
1. I can't help it if I'm right and you aren't. So sorry.
2. Maybe. All of the above?
3. Ah. Yes. My master stroke. Well played DH.

I refuse to turn this into Epignosis vs. DH. I think that's what he's counting on.

No wait, I will. Let's do it. Counterpoints:

1. DharmaHelper pushed for the MOST anti civilian position there was. He supported a Day 0 option that could make it possible for your vote not to count, your enemy's vote to count more, and for two Mafia to have info that only one civilian would have. Operating under the assumption that all Yotsuba are bad, he gave one random case where civilians benefited from that option (and ignored hundreds of cases where they didn't).

I don't see L/Light as the MOST anti civilian option. I think that would be secret ballot. I've spent several posts explaining how the L/Light mechanic could have been used to civ advantage. You do however have me dead to rights in one regard. I did not post any of the hundreds of permutations of the L/Light mechanic that gave the mafia the advantage. Correctomundo. The one example I did use was a completely randomized example that happened to be civ friendly. It is of course not the only civ friendly example, nor the best example, but it illustrated my point that the L/Light mechanic was not as Light favorable as most people would believe.

2. DharmaHelper is upset that people don't participate or "play the game," but when I do, it's opportunistic, hasty, and ill-thought out. I wonder why that is. DH, what do you think of Ricochet?
Your participation is not at issue, And I don't appreciate you framing my suspicion of you in that light, because it's dishonest and not what I said or intended. Your suspicion of Rico is what is at issue. I found it to be premature and tunnel-visiony. As for my thoughts on Rico, initially I agreed with his points regarding the L mechanic and L/Wat. I do find it odd that his vote did not reflect his spirited discussion regarding L and the L/Light mechanic. I would suspect him less if he stuck to his guns in that situation, but I don't see him as Public Enemy #1.


3. DharmaHelper can read better than this. I play D&D with him. He notices the most minute details, even making fun of some of us like leggyorlyb and me in the process for missing things. And yet he misrepresents what I've said about win conditions (and misuses the word "literally," which is even worse). For the record, my position is this: Lynch all Mafia, but only four people actually are Mafia. They just happen to exist in two factions. One in Yotsuba, and three in the Sympathizers. If you must lynch secondary Mafia to get to the Kiras, fine. But the Kiras a top priority. I believe DharmaHelper is being shady. I do not know why.

The last time someone told me I was "better than this" in a mafia game did not go over so well. Alright, let me see if I have this right. You're saying that the only people we need to kill to win are the Kiras. What I'm saying is that these Kiras have teammates that are likely not civ-friendly, and that makes them all "mafia" in a simplistic sense. boo laid this out, so I won't, Instead I will say that I take no issue with lynching Sympathizers or Yotsuba. Nor do I think that cases pinning anyone as a Sympathizer or Yotsuba subordinate should be discounted. Lynching Sympathizers and Subordinates will give us the information we need to find the Kiras. What I feel like you're saying is that ONLY the Kiras pose a threat and therefore ONLY the Kiras should be lynch targets.



Here is what I want DH to answer: Why do you think the detectives, a group of 12, have to lynch 14 players in order to win?
That's a good question. Maybe not all 14, but I won't shy away from lynching them either, which you seem willing to do. At the end of the day the Detectives are the civvies, so lynching anyone other than them is necessary.



Addendum: Ain't reading boo until I piss.
@Boo I answer RE: Rico in this post. Basically, I was not looking at him until he shifted gears, and now I am. But on the same token, I'm not as sold as Lllama or Epi are.

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