The Syndicate

I have no idea how any of this map business works so I'm just gonna treat it as though it was any other Day 0 location poll.

So yeah still no idea of how to vote. Starting where the breakout happened does make sense, sort of, but I'm also kinda wary about going head first into baddie territory. The deal with these things is that there's always obvious goodie/baddie spots, but how each works is still very much a gamble.

Golden wrote:@Hosts - what happens if both crime families try to buy off the same cop?

Bass's idea sounds sensible enough, but I'd also point out that everyone from the Asylum appears to be independent. So, it might not help us find the crime families (who seem more analagous to mafia).

But a lot of those independents don't seem exactly friendly.

Independents whom most civvies need dead to win

10 / 13 civvies have an independent assigned to them that they have to kill. So uhh yeah I would expect you to notice that from your role card.

That's a good point about Blackgate, sig. You'd think of it as one of those regular baddie spots but it's just a regular prison and not any baddie's territory.

Gotham City General Hospital The hospital would be neutral right now, but could be a target for inmates.

What does this mean? This option sounds kinda wasteful tbh cause I don't know what we'd get from visiting a hospital, but I agree it sounds "neutral" enough.

@Hosts I take it the game ends when two out of the three main competing factions (GCPD + the mafias) are dead? Or do all independent-related conflicts need to be resolved as well? (Joker vs Batman, Gordon, Falcone and Maroni for example)

linki:

@Golden: Every independent is assigned to a civvie. It makes sense that if we want the civives to win, we'd go after them. And yes, Wayne Manor should probably be counted as civvies as well, so that's 13/16 civs with an indie hunt in their best interests.
(linki2: Okay, so now it's a better option)

@sig:

I'd think the hospital could help players if they get poisoned or something like that.

I doubt anybody's starting the game poisoned, so maybe leave that for later.

Okay, Golden. I'm glad you're coming out as bad so early in the game.

To be clear, I am not arguing against prioritizing scum-hunt over indie-hunt (I currently have no intention of voting AA). But we are going to have to do both. The bigger picture here is that with no indies dead, only three civvies win. They matter a lot. I also really want to get an answer from the host re: when the game ends, because that would suck ass if we killed the two mafia families before anybody else and no one won as a result lol.

linki:

I think trying to focus the thread very squarely on independent hunting is exactly what the baddies would want to do.

Totally called this misrepresentation. I love how bad you are already. I'm reading your role card post added to your reluctance to go after independents as a huuge early slip. Even if you were one of the three other GCPD roles, surely you'd understand that the rest of the team can't win as easily.

I don't buy it, Golden. You're acting like I'm trying to sideline the Mafia when that is simply not true. You act like there's been a massive dicussion about this, where I'm arguing your 'rational factual actual logic science based focus' is a perspective a civ couldn't possibly hold, that that's the sole reason you are scum. You're also somehow both ignoring and using against me the idea that indies are scum to me. Simple as is, Golden, they're our enemies as much as the other roles.

What reason would you have to ignore the indie hunt? So many! For starters, you do realize that each Mafia needs the other dead, right? And we are going to get them both, like, Christ where do you even get the idea that I'm opposing that? I think you're Supatowning it up because your team doesn't give a shit about Independents one way or another. The rest of us? They're our enemies. As much as the Mafia is, and please stop using that "logic" card against me like I haven't thought this out or I don't know what I'm saying. Talking down to me isn't gonna do anything to convince me that you're good.

Bringing up Star Wars Mafia makes me feel like you are the one who's threatened, Golden. I don't even understand where that came from. This is my case. This is me on you. This is me telling you that I don't buy it, that you've all but crossed out almost any civvie role for you and you know you got caught. And, you know, it didn't have to be this way. I would've been a lot less aggressive about this, potentially even let it go if you didn't try to twist my words to make it about me and responded appropriately ("Oh, gee, I get it now. The other baddies are also bad!"). I don't even necessarily blame you for disagreeing, but you're painting indie hunt as something bad that only bad people would have any motive for following. Also I am focused squarely on indie hunting. Oh, and you're voting Arkham Asylum too to prove how okay it is with you! That's bullshit, G.

@Hosts: Hey don't forget me! When does the game end? Does every single conflict (GCDP vs Mafia vs Mafia, Cop vs Indie, Joker vs Wayne Gordon Falcoke Maroni) need to be resolved, or only the main one?

Or, or, or, hey. Maybe you're just an Independent who's reluctantly going with the majority option not to stick out, even after trying to nudge the town the other way

Golden wrote:@Hosts - what happens if both crime families try to buy off the same cop?

Bass's idea sounds sensible enough, but I'd also point out that everyone from the Asylum appears to be independent. So, it might not help us find the crime families (who seem more analagous to mafia).

But a lot of those independents don't seem exactly friendly.

This is the first post even using the word "Independent" for the Arkham Asylum baddies. This stinks, right? To turn this on you, maybe focusing squarely on Mafia is what an Arkham baddie would want us to do.

But a lot of those independents don't seem exactly friendly.

Thanks Epi.

So you hear that, folks? Let's not even try to win. How many of us are gonna survive anyway, six? Just give up.

Yeah that confused me too, and Golden even knew what to answer so it must be something obvious

Voted.

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:@Hosts - what happens if both crime families try to buy off the same cop?

Hmm...

Enrique wrote:@Hosts I take it the game ends when two out of the three main competing factions (GCPD + the mafias) are dead? Or do all independent-related conflicts need to be resolved as well? (Joker vs Batman, Gordon, Falcone and Maroni for example)

This ends when two of those three main factions you named are eliminated. Any independent or additional win conditions need to be satisfied by that point.

What if Mr. Freeze becomes a serial killer? I assume he has to die too?

Golden wrote:

Enrique wrote:

Golden wrote:@Hosts - what happens if both crime families try to buy off the same cop?

Bass's idea sounds sensible enough, but I'd also point out that everyone from the Asylum appears to be independent. So, it might not help us find the crime families (who seem more analagous to mafia).

But a lot of those independents don't seem exactly friendly.

Independents whom most civvies need dead to win

They do? It doesn't look to me like ANY civilians need the independents dead, to me. Whereas the town definitely needs the crime families dead.

This is literally the first think I noticed when I got my role card, so right back at you.

I really don't think he's a cop based on this post. Not to mention, he could hope to get bought off, but in the end the mafia picks a number, not a player, so he can't exactly angle himself for that.

Although

Golden wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Eighth

SVS and I have an 8 bond.

There's a number.

What turns me off AA is that I feel as if it's heading straight into baddie territory. In past games I've always voted for what I see as the "civviest" option (which in this case I think would obviously be Wayne Manor), but then you have to take into account that we're taking all the baddies with us, and in this case they make up half of the players.

That's why I like neutral places. I don't see how the Penitentiary could be harmful, and at best some of the meta-people there might have leads. The Hospital is also pretty damn neutral but like sig pointed out, it might be better to visit when players are poisoned and we need to.

I have no idea why I was supposed to associate that with Lost. You do realize... that the number eight exists out of that context, right? I can recognize numbers just fine. I don't think Golden is a cop at all, I'm simply adding to a discussion already being had. Chill.

Arkham Asylum is a baddie team, seeing them otherwise is bad logic. Wayne Manor needs at the very least 6 of them dead, and that's if no civvies die ever. Ten cops need to kill them, and that's something you actively work on, you don't just leave your victory conditions to luck. If it looks like I'm tunneling Golden right now keep in mind that I do think he's bad and that the game just started. I don't see other players being discussed? What more do you expect from me?

Dom wrote:I don't buy for one second you didn't recognize 8.

I find this post completely ridiculous, seriously. Why should I associate every instance of a single digit number with Lost? I know what the numbers are, but where do they come in here? What is there for you to buy?

Golden wrote:

Enrique wrote:

Golden wrote:@Hosts - what happens if both crime families try to buy off the same cop?

Bass's idea sounds sensible enough, but I'd also point out that everyone from the Asylum appears to be independent. So, it might not help us find the crime families (who seem more analagous to mafia).

But a lot of those independents don't seem exactly friendly.

Independents whom most civvies need dead to win

They do? It doesn't look to me like ANY civilians need the independents dead, to me. Whereas the town definitely needs the crime families dead.

This is literally the first think I noticed when I got my role card, so right back at you.

This post, juliets. It can be interpreted as "we don't need ALL independents [correction: baddies] dead," but look at that last bit. This is literally the first thing I noticed when I got my role card. That's not how it works. All but three civvie roles NEED to kill indies to even win the game. No matter if they can win with the other nine, the fact is that civvies can't win without indie hunting, and he even proposes just hunting the baddies and leaving the rest to luck. What kind of role card even suggests that? Well, there are three civvie options. And fifteen baddie ones.

Okay, look. Killing the mafias isn't enough for nearly all the civvies. It is ABSOLUTELY something that we need to pursue, but there's a lot more to the game, and nobody should dismiss the inmates that easily. S~V~S, we can't lynch the mafia and then the inmates, because when the mafia dies the game ENDS. There are three civvies and ten inmates who can possibly win this way. Just think about that.

That is what I've been trying to say and honestly I don't think it's that complicated.

Golden wrote:@sig - I'd be up for Fish Mooney's, that sounds like a good idea.

On the other hand, the idea of heading to Arkham right after the breakout still might be a good one despite the fact they aren't the mafia.

Why is this a good idea, Golden? If they are independents and not baddies, why do you agree with the majority here in that we should pursue them? Or am I misinterpreting you? I'm actually asking, why do you think this is a good idea?

Could we discuss Dom's ridiculous spin for a bit? Regardless of whatever Golden meant in that post, and I'm serious, completely disregarding it. Did anybody read that post and think "oh haha they're talking about the Lost numbers!"? S~V~S confirmed that was the case, and if you did think of that then power to you, but that's not how my brain works. Why then would Dom use that against me? It makes zero sense and it just comes off as an opportunistic attempt to get the ball rolling against me.

Dom, you're free to disagree with any of my views, but seriously, dude? Should I look into every usage of a Lost number in this forum and call out people who don't recognize them? I don't understand. I guess my original point was more along the lines of "cops might use numbers to hint at their roles to recruiters," and there's a very small chance that's gonna happen anymore, but don't tell me it wasn't relevant to the conversation then.

TH, that sig then looks pretty normal to me. "Don't lynch me now, at least let me play a bit." I dunno why he didn't respond but it doesn't say anything to me either.

@linki: but what useful info can we get on the scum? This contradicts your whole attitude re: indies before.
@linki2: again, I'm not focusing specifically on the inmates, but exclusive mafia hunting is a terrible idea for anyone who isn't bad.

There's all the proof I need that you're not reading my posts, Golden, but I'll gladly go over every single one of those points again. Just let me find a comfy spot in the library from where I can type this.

Golden wrote:

Enrique wrote:

Golden wrote:This is so incredibly misleading and twiwtsy.

Let's see how this goes.

Enrique, this is the last time I'll say this. There are literally NO civilian roles for whom independent chasing is the best move. Except the dirty cops who get recruited.

This is so incredibly misleading and twiwtsy! (am I using that word right? I don't actually know what it means)

It's also straight up false. Do I need to explain to you how the Wayne Manor roles work? Because it's not hard to figure out. They need to achieve a 100% win condition to win the game; each dead Mafia / bought up gives them 5%, so that's at most 30% they can get from them. Where does the rest come from? Arkham Asylum. Each inmate gives them 12%, so if they manage to kill all the Mafia and 6 inmates, that's the least they can do to win the game! But then, that leaves them with 102%. If one GCDP civvie dies, they lose 2%, so even all the mafia + six inmates isn't enough if two civvies die! And they lose a WHOLE 8% for every member of their faction that dies. So that's a fuckton of inmates they need to kill. That at least one other civvie needs to kill as well or they don't win. Why the hell would I as a cop go and kill the mafia when, unless I've killed my assigned indie, it does NOTHING for me?

Don't try to argue Wayne Manor isn't civvie because nearly all of us have different win conditions.

The civilian cops need 6 out of 6 baddies dead and 1 out of 10 independents dead. The other three need 6 out of 6 baddies dead and 0 out of 10 independents dead.

Yes. So every inmate (you keep saying independent, more on that later) is needed dead by the civvies. Got you.

On the other hand, the independents don't have any stake in killing the baddies (Except one or two discrete instances like the joker)

No. This is false. They absolutely do. Whether their win condition is to survive, to kill certain players, to align themselves with another player, they ALL need the game to end with their conditions in place. The game ends when the Mafia dies. There IS no going back. Why would you even say that? What are their stakes according to you? From how I see it, the game ending with them still alive is the best thing that could happen to them.

So you're wrong again. You use the opposite argument against me, "of course baddies would benefit from indie hunt!" but you fail to see how that goes both ways. Why?

so how do you get 'there are fifteen baddie roles that need to baddie hunt'.... That makes no sense at all.

First off, that's not a real quote so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Second of all, what are we doing right now? What did the opening post say? Aren't we looking for the escapees? That's a fundamental part of this game that you're completely DENYING, and dude, you can't do that. Because they're the only players (with exactly three exceptions) who win that way.

Plus, you still fail to address my point that going after independents is exactly what the baddies WOULD be doing.

Woops, I actually addressed that prematurely. So let me hint at the next point that I've actually stated before: the inmates are baddies.

And you say '15 baddie ones' which just goes to prove that you are still painting the independents as mafia when they are not.

They absolutely are, Golden, I'm sorry. You were the first to describe them as "independents," the roles list never did such thing. You act like they're our allies in some way but that simply doesn't work. Sure, we can win with some of them, but not all of us! Not with all! They're the ENEMY, the goal of the game is to FIND THEM. I care about the mafia. I'm tired of being portrayed as if I'm only going after the inmates. But BOTH need to go, no buts. The argument to leave the inmates alone doesn't hold up. It's a terrible idea. You can't just ask the civvies to leave their victory to chance instead of pursuing it.

I'll tell you how many role cards suggest chasing the baddies before the indys.

13 civilian ones.
And NOONE else.
Thats it.

Not even close to the truth. The game ENDS when the mafia dies. If the game ends with the mafia dead and the inmates alive, the only winners are the inmates! Why are you ignoring that? The statement you just made is completely false.

This shouldn't be hard to understand. I'm sorry. I'm right.

@linki: have YOU tried slipping into my perspective, Golden? I'm not making it a secret. Your method isn't helping me, and you're not only denying it but using it against me. That's why I'm convinced that you're bad.

Well I kinda butchered those quotes, but at the same time they're legible. I'm being completely transparent. That's what I think, and you're just refusing to understand it.

a2thezebra wrote:

Matt wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:The amount of votes for Arkham Asylum is downright alarming.

Why do you say that Zeebs?

In a game called Arkham Mafia where the first post talks about escaping from Arkham...I'm surprised more people aren't voting that way.

That's just it, the escape has already happened. The inmates aren't in Arkham at the moment, they're outside of it. What good is going to come from going there? If anything happens, it will be a trap.

linki - Enrique, you're reminding me of me when I'm bad.

I had previously only been civ once in the last 5 years and you lynched me Day 1 in the most bullshit manner ever conceived. Maybe I remind you of when you are bad, but please don't try to meta me

Golden you're using inmates for the wrong faction and it makes your post completely unreadable.

I don't think the first 6 to go will be mafia but I will earn my win, not just leave it to luck! Why don't you understand that?

Dom I'm sorry, I will never take that post seriously. It came out of nowhere and it's one of the dumbest things I've ever been accused of. I'll ask again, how many here read that post and thought oooh Lost?

Dom wrote:I don't buy for one second you didn't recognize 8.

I don't know, what was I accused of? I don't understand it either.

@linki: not by sitting back and ending the game prematurely!!!

You're not buying, but the deal is I wasn't selling anything. That phrase has all sorts of negative implications, over what? What ARE you saying?

Dom wrote:

Enrique wrote:You're not buying, but the deal is I wasn't selling anything. That phrase has all sorts of negative implications, over what? What ARE you saying?

I said that it made me doubt your motives.

Your post did not read as believable to me. It seemed like a desperate jab.


But, please, Enrique, do tell-- what did I accuse you of?

You just said it. You were calling me a liar. Because... what?

Turnip Head wrote:

Enrique wrote:Dom I'm sorry, I will never take that post seriously. It came out of nowhere and it's one of the dumbest things I've ever been accused of. I'll ask again, how many here read that post and thought oooh Lost?

I did, but only because I know SVS and Golden.

I think you need to chill out a bit Enri, you're whipping yourself into a panic :P

I'm not in a panic. I don't see myself as playing defense right now, but rather, refusing to give credibility to nonsensical posts.

linki: but why wouldn't I be genuine? and why would you expect me to understand that in the first place?

Dom wrote:

Enrique wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:

Enrique wrote:Dom I'm sorry, I will never take that post seriously. It came out of nowhere and it's one of the dumbest things I've ever been accused of. I'll ask again, how many here read that post and thought oooh Lost?

I did, but only because I know SVS and Golden.

I think you need to chill out a bit Enri, you're whipping yourself into a panic :P

I'm not in a panic. I don't see myself as playing defense right now, but rather, refusing to give credibility to nonsensical posts.

linki: but why wouldn't I be genuine? and why would you expect me to understand that in the first place?

Am I misunderstanding your post? You were saying you doubt that Golden is police because of what he has said about the inmates, thus you think he is bad. Okay, then you point out a number in the post he makes, thinking it could be a hint.

This did not read as genuine to me given that there was a response between the two of them saying they have a "bond".

That conversation was happening without me. "Is Golden a cop hoping to be recruited?" I said, NO, I don't believe he is. Plus, you can't posture yourself to be recruited. But then I thought, how can you do that? By giving away your number. I went back and I found that. I didn't think it was the case myself, but I was trying to add to the conversation. Not everything I do has to follow an agenda, I care about working with the thread.

You saying "I didn't recognize the number" was super weak, Dom. It makes sense that you didn't but the Golden as a crooked cop thing but that number thing is just silly.

im in the mid of a great linguistics lecture so its taking me a bit to answer but hold on im still here

Golden wrote:

Enrique wrote:@linki: not by sitting back and ending the game prematurely!!!

I was beginning to feel better about you, but this doesnt help. If you are being transparent about your perspective, I really want to understand this.

For instance, what if you are a cop, and your independent is NKed night one, and you don't know about it? How do you earn it from there?

For me, earning this win is about catching the baddies. Catching the baddies isn't 'ending the game prematurely'.

But I will say... as alluded to at the start of this post. I am feeling a bit better about you. But I don't like these offhanded responses. Transparency needs detail about your thought processes. Why do you think pursuing 'independents' will help you find yours, if you were a cop?

I think I've laid it out before. You call them indies, I call them baddies. They're a little more than non-friends, they're enemies. I don't want the game to end when I can't win, and I'm sure most of the town will agree. I have never opposed scum hunt, that's just silly, but so is opposing the so-called indie hunt. They're all bad.

It's ending prematurely if I'm not winning. It's not just me, it's the majority of the town. We play to win, not to get two teams.

@linki: okay you know what i dont get it either. you're not buying it, you don't think i'm genuine. why? what do you think i was doing and what for?

linki2: no i dont even feel that way, thats the thing. im trying to make a point, it has nothing to do with me

you can just answer dommmm

I swear I'm just trying to play. I've been very irritable lately, but that's not what's happening here, I am legitimately trying to get a point across and that's not gonna happen if nobody lays anything down.

Okay, I guess I get it. Dom's idea basically was that I wasn't being genuine about Golden role-hinting. Well, it's not something I even believed. I thought my post was clear in presenting it as an alternative to what I actually do believe. If Golden was a cop I wouldn't be going after him, no. Does that make sense?

He did present it as an accusation, though. "I'm not buying it" isn't much of a question especially when you frame it around an inside joke thing that I had no way of interpreting correctly. He can say he doesn't buy Golden hinting at a number, but that I'm lying and obviously understood the reference? Yeah no. That's silly and not really an argument.

Okay, so what was the purpose of that post?

I'm very genuinely confused, Dom.

I think Golden is bad and that's just what I see. There's no agenda.

That role hint would've made Golden good for what it's worth.

*sigh* That's the deal, Golden. We really really don't agree about game mechanics and to me that's a big deal.

First I wanna point out re: me backing down from AA (I refuse to call them independents), this is just really messy. From the start, and I really haven't changed my mind here (if anything I'm more for lynching them first), I've wanted to keep this balanced and lynch who we think is bad. Not who we think is mafia, because it's not the same. I've explained why the inmates to me are bad, several times. They are. I actually don't think I had talked about this distinction before I 'd that one post of yours asking to focus on the Mafia. I still read it the same way as I did then. Oblivious to the town's actual win conditions.

I don't like you painting yourself as some sort of civvie savior who's gonna win the game with his method. Because I disagree with it completely. We need to fulfill our win conditions, which goes way beyond killing the mafia. Your civilian win, if real, isn't the same as nearly any other civilian win.

I AM self serving in the sense that I'm playing to win. I'm also playing for the rest of the town to win, and you've said it yourself, how can we know if our inmates are dead? We don't, but we can always do our best to eliminate them and give the Mafia hunt a purpose. Because, again, we don't win otherwise. I don't benefit from killing all the Mafia if the inmates are still intact by the end of the game.

You bring up your voting for Arkham, and I see it as an inconsistency, not a point in your favor. Yes, you've been there from the beginning, but I still don't really understand why. Aren't the inmates independent? I do see you as being anti indie hunt, simply because I don't understand how you can reconcile those views, and because you have said we should focus on the Mafia, repeatedly.

I don't get the self-serving argument or how you're narrowing down my possible roles already. This is how civvies win. Arkham Asylum is a baddie faction. You not seeing that doesn't make it untrue.

(Hopefully this has been cleared up already @Dom, but just in case, I don't think the number thing was a claim at all. Not a fake claim, not a real claim. Just a post that could be interpreted like that if you were really looking. So yes I see what you were saying, but it all comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of my post.)

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Golden wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:From my perspective, Enrique and Golden are arguing about semantics and I cannot discern any alignment-indicative behavior from them. I find myself agreeing with Turnip Head on this one.

Now, with that said, I will admit that my first slight civilian read is Dom. He questioned Enrique, pursued it, and GTH I evaluate his behavior to be one in which he is developing those thoughts organically. But I'm systematically incorrect about Dom, so this means you all should probably find him a slight mafia read. :P

Why wouldn't it be alignment-indicative? It seems like a fairly substantial issue, and hardly seems to be semantic. And TH did suggest it ruled out certain alignments (for me anyway)....

I don't much like this post, MP. That includes the equivocating on Dom.

If it is alignment-indicative, then I don't get it.

He thinks Mafia would want to focus on Arkham. I argue Arkham would want to focus on Mafia. Same dealio.

It's kinda similar, actually. Back then I was also arguing that the indie roles were dangerous and should be lynched (although that was mostly out of paranoid fear that one of them poisoned me)

But in this case they actually are baddies, so yeah.

linki: He wants to focus on the Mafia, I (from his point of view, but also kinda accurately) want to focus on Arkham. He thinks it's sus because I'm ignoring baddie factions, but to me, the same argument could be flipped right back at him. It's alignment indicative because whichever method we choose is gonna greatly affect who wins the game.

He says his is the civvie way, I say mine is the civvie way. I don't see it being settled for a while.

Golden wrote:

Enrique wrote:*sigh* That's the deal, Golden. We really really don't agree about game mechanics and to me that's a big deal.

First I wanna point out re: me backing down from AA (I refuse to call them independents), this is just really messy. From the start, and I really haven't changed my mind here (if anything I'm more for lynching them first), I've wanted to keep this balanced and lynch who we think is bad. Not who we think is mafia, because it's not the same. I've explained why the inmates to me are bad, several times. They are. I actually don't think I had talked about this distinction before I 'd that one post of yours asking to focus on the Mafia. I still read it the same way as I did then. Oblivious to the town's actual win conditions.

I don't like you painting yourself as some sort of civvie savior who's gonna win the game with his method. Because I disagree with it completely. We need to fulfill our win conditions, which goes way beyond killing the mafia. Your civilian win, if real, isn't the same as nearly any other civilian win.

I AM self serving in the sense that I'm playing to win. I'm also playing for the rest of the town to win, and you've said it yourself, how can we know if our inmates are dead? We don't, but we can always do our best to eliminate them and give the Mafia hunt a purpose. Because, again, we don't win otherwise. I don't benefit from killing all the Mafia if the inmates are still intact by the end of the game.

You bring up your voting for Arkham, and I see it as an inconsistency, not a point in your favor. Yes, you've been there from the beginning, but I still don't really understand why. Aren't the inmates independent? I do see you as being anti indie hunt, simply because I don't understand how you can reconcile those views, and because you have said we should focus on the Mafia, repeatedly.

I don't get the self-serving argument or how you're narrowing down my possible roles already. This is how civvies win. Arkham Asylum is a baddie faction. You not seeing that doesn't make it untrue.

(Hopefully this has been cleared up already @Dom, but just in case, I don't think the number thing was a claim at all. Not a fake claim, not a real claim. Just a post that could be interpreted like that if you were really looking. So yes I see what you were saying, but it all comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of my post.)

OK, but

1) The post you eyed didn't ask people to 'focus' on mafia. It pointed out that we shouldn't solely focus on the inmates. That's a really different thing. It's why to me your sussing read as wanting us not to focus on the mafia at all, which you've subsequently denied but to me thats what it REALLY looks like you were doing at the start. I actually agree with you that the inmates are bad dudes, they just are patently not the mafia. And they aren't a 'baddie faction'. In fact I'd go so far as to say they aren't a faction at all. They all have different win cons. They are, mechanically speaking, absolutely independents. That doesn't make them town-friendly. It just makes them independents.

They are independent at a superficial level, where they're working on their own. But they're our enemies, Golden. They're bad. We don't win with them alive. Your post said pretty much the same thing you're saying now, but thay's the thing, calling them "independent" in the first place and saying we don't need them dead almost paints them as allies. They're not. They're super bad.

2) The concept isn't hard to reconcile, it's actually really easy, but I think you are choosing not to. I'll repeat it again.

a) the independents are people we should be mildly looking to lynch, as a second choice to mafia
b) the mafia are people we should be strongly looking to lynch, as our primary choice
c) we could guess where mafia are, eg locations like fish mooney's, to help us get info on them
d) on the other hand, we may only have one chance to get info at Arkham, immediately after the breakout. That info might be gone if we wait. So perhaps we should prioritise the urgent, less important thing over the important, non-urgent thing.

Once more, I don't agree. I don't really see it much as a matter of first choice vs second choice, but if pressed, I'd rather get rid of Arkham first. You can say we all need the Mafia dead, which is why they should be our primary choice, but we still don't win that game. How frustrated would you be if you turned in your A+ game, got every Mafia member lynched, but still lost because you never looked for that one other guy?

I guess that's a reasonable explanation for voting Arkham, but it sends the opposite message completely. We might only have one chance, yeah, but isn't Mafia the primary target? It doesn't sit well with me.

3) I think you are confusing disagreeing with me over game mechanics with my affiliation. You seem to think I'm bad because I disagree with you, but you haven't been able to explain any baddie motive for what I'm saying (beyond saying that I wouldn't possibly ever take the view I have if I'm a cop, which just goes to show you don't know me that well), whereas I have a very clear one with what you were doing with your first suspicion of me... pushing the towns attention solely towards the independents at the exclusion of the mafia, and putting the eye on me simply for pointing out the fact that the mafia are not the inmates. And again, don't confuse me using indy and mafia with town and anti-town. They are different things. Independents can be anti-town, but it doesn't make them mafia (serial killer, eg).

First off, that's not true about me refusing to give baddie motives. I've done that right from the start, but as usual, I'll just have to reiterate myself over and over until someone acknowledges it.

a) The same reason you see me as bad– it's sidelining a team in favor of another.
b) I've explained this before, a lot of Arkham benefits from an early game ending, whereas most civvies don't.
c) If you were Mafia, it could be seen as Supatowning it up. It creates a distance between you and the concept of Mafia. "Why would a mafioso push so strongly to prioritize the Mafia?" Better put, it's a WIFOM.

Remember. These are possible motivations, not the reasons I suspect you. The way you go about this is only adding to what I saw as a slip. Those first few posts seemed COMPLETELY oblivious to the idea that most Cops had to kill an inmate, you made more than one post about it before Bass and I had to point that out. There's no way to retroactively prove whether you were aware, but let me tell you, it did not come off like you were. Our mechanics disagreement might as well be an extension of that, just stubborn refusal to accept you got caught. (Or you could legitimately hold those views, and I will spend the rest of the game still disagreeing.)

4) Enrique, for me the most damning thing about you is how intently you have called me very bad from a very early point in time, when I do not think you could hold that view genuinely, and to me it does (genuinely) feel very reactive and a little caught. It felt like it particularly ramped up from you at this point:

Enrique wrote:

golden wrote:]I think trying to focus the thread very squarely on independent hunting is exactly what the baddies would want to do.

Totally called this misrepresentation. I love how bad you are already. I'm reading your role card post added to your reluctance to go after independents as a huuge early slip. Even if you were one of the three other GCPD roles, surely you'd understand that the rest of the team can't win as easily.

Which is where it felt to me like you went into another gear.

That is exactly how I feel about your original response to this.

Golden wrote:

Enrique wrote:To be clear, I am not arguing against prioritizing scum-hunt over indie-hunt (I currently have no intention of voting AA). But we are going to have to do both. The bigger picture here is that with no indies dead, only three civvies win. They matter a lot. I also really want to get an answer from the host re: when the game ends, because that would suck ass if we killed the two mafia families before anybody else and no one won as a result lol.

linki:

I think trying to focus the thread very squarely on independent hunting is exactly what the baddies would want to do.

Totally called this misrepresentation. I love how bad you are already. I'm reading your role card post added to your reluctance to go after independents as a huuge early slip. Even if you were one of the three other GCPD roles, surely you'd understand that the rest of the team can't win as easily.

What possible baddie motivation is there to be reluctant to go after independents? Please - make a rational case out of that for me.

The rest of the team CAN win as easily, and I've explained this to you over and over. How many people will usually be alive at game end, about 6 on average? I think the chances of a civilian cop being alive at the end when the cops win, and his independent counterpart also being alive to be slim. Heck, if I did or have rolled a cop I would be saying exactly what I'm saying now. It would be my job to find the one person I need to kill, and lynching my way through ten independents to get there would just be selfish. Killing a baddie is in the interests of everyone. Killing an independent is in the interests of one person. It's really straightforward.

You are fighting and pushing to chase independents. Why?
You ignore my logical points. Why?
You think that as a baddie I'm going to come out swinging against going after independents? WHY? Like I just pointed out, the baddies couldn't be happier if everyone goes chasing independents.
You ignore the others who have taken my points and agree with me. Why?

Is it because I nailed you in Star Wars, and you feel threatened?

C'mon, rationalise where you think my headspace is at for any of that to be true, Enrique. Convince me that your stuff about me is in any way genuine. Because right now all I see is someone making bad arguments to try and pin a motive on me that makes no sense, and I don't know why that would be your response instead of just actually recognising I have a point. You seem completely locked into your idea, and unwilling to budge from it, and its like you are trying to push a logical point of your own to make it seem genuine but your logical point just makes no sense. Each one of those cops, if they eliminate the baddies, can win with NINE of the independents alive.

By the way, I still think I'll probably vote Arkham. The leads are hot now. But I'm telling you that I will be pushing in this game VERY hard to stay focussed on the BADDIES. The independents are no loss, but they are exactly who the baddies want us to lynch while they clean us up.

And yeah, because doubling down on flawed ideas and not listening to reason is often a baddie tell.

linki @ Matt - why am I being strange? I seem to always get called strange these days.

This is all over the place. By far the longest post in the conversation up to thay point, you're suddenly bringing up Star Wars? Trying to downplay my perspective entirely? The entire post, where is it coming from? Saying the whole team can win as easily doesn't make any sense when you're pretty much suggesting to leave it to luck and see who's left by the end.

You think I got caught? I was trying to explain to you why Arkham mattered and you wouldn't have it. Then you misrepresented me as quoted above to say I was squarely focusing on indie hunting, just like the mafia would want. I don't see that, I don't see why you would say that other than because your own ass was on fire.

linki:

@Golden: These hypothetical scenarios, that's not how mafia works. Should we lynch the Penguin if the Cop assigned to him is dead? Well, first of all, how do we know any of their roles beforehand??? If we have a Mafia nailed down and ready to go, then yeah lynch the confirmed baddie first. That's just not how the game works and it actually makes me confused about this whole argument. Second of all, you're missing that there are civvies who benefit from ANY Arkham death.

I have no issue with Zebra trying to work with the thread. We don't do enough of that. The number of unopposed / unexplained votes for a leading option can always be concerning. This isn't new, and yeah maybe it's the reason she gets lynched a lot, but maybe she's not the one making a mistake?

Zebra is gonna accuse me of trying to buddy up to her but I don't give a shit, I get lynched for that kinda stuff too and it's really silly. Maybe we should encourage players to figure the game out instead of killing everyone who's actually trying.

I understand that perfectly, but it's still missing the point of the larger discussion. The game isn't just deciding whether to lynch the Penguin or not.

This isn't going anywhere.

Golden wrote:

Enrique wrote:I understand that perfectly, but it's still missing the point of the larger discussion. The game isn't just deciding whether to lynch the Penguin or not.

This isn't going anywhere.

No, the game IS deciding whether to lynch the Penguin or not... along with all the other independents.

I'm saying... those decisions are contextual and can be made based on the circumstances. Lynching every single independent is not necessarily a must-do. Lynching some is a must do, but not necessarily all.

But ALL of the mafia must die.

Except for the first line, everything in this post is true.

bea wrote:

Typhoony wrote:

Nerolunar wrote: I still believe we should go to AA though. Im wondering if there is a mechanic that makes the Riddler place clues where he has been. He has been at Arkham, so it wouldn´t surprise me if there was one.

What is this based on?

That sir is a good question.

Also mostly posting this to say nub typh.

I actually really like this. It's probably 100% speculation, but that's a very Riddler thing and not a bad shot at what his secret could be.

It doesn't have to be based on anything. I think it's good, and actually makes me a little excited to see what we find in Arkham.

@linki: We're going in circles a lot. My view remains the same. Not needing every inmate dead doesn't mean they're not essential lynch targets. But we can leave that for later when we actually have a choice to make.

Golden wrote:

Enrique wrote:@linki: We're going in circles a lot. My view remains the same. Not needing every inmate dead doesn't mean they're not essential lynch targets. But we can leave that for later when we actually have a choice to make.

Actually I think we may finally be in the same place. I've never said they shouldn't be lynch targets. I've only ever been trying to point out to you that we don't necessarily need them dead, and that we should be keeping the mafia in focus.

I may not agree with keeping mafia in primary focus, but at this point what difference does it make? Whatever opportunity presents itself to lynch mafia or Arkham let's just take it. This whole exchange was kinda hollow when you think about it in practical terms.

Votes aren't changeable, LoRab.

I'm actually getting a little excited about the possibility of the Asylum. I know there's nothing to it, but I think Nero's Riddler theory was very interesting and now I want it to play out. We're probably gonna end up visiting all the locations anyway, so why not start at the beginning?

Matt, it's simple. When an option gains popularity on the poll, and most votes are quick throwaway for no particular reason and sometimes by players that have gone mostly unaccounted for, that's considered shady. It's a huge stretch to go from there and start singling out individuals as being suspicious, especially when the game just started. There's simply nothing else to work with, but the poll results are still interesting.

Golden wrote:Plus, Wayne Manor doesn't 'necessarily' need all independents dead. They just need some dead. For them, it matters less specifically who than it does for the cops, though,

@all - I expect today will be a low participation day from me.

Am I missing something?

I personally see Wayne Manor as full-on civvies, especially when you take into account that we all have different win conditions already. But, uh, whatever.

I still think Zebra comes off looking better in the recent exchange tbh. Like it usually happens, I'm not sure whether Matt really is that confused or he's just refusing to give her a point. If most of the thread understands what she meant, can we just move on? I don't think anybody is digging anybody's grave, but if anything it's Matt's stubbornness that stands out to me.

No concerns re: Nero. In the end I just think fighting about locations is a bit silly. Did I miss Epi's post saying no one has info? Because if that's really the case, then yeah, this is moot.

Oh woops I misread that, Golden. I thought you said who does it. Okay nvm.