The Syndicate

My most sincere apologies to all of you for my 'disconnectedness' this last Day phase. I'm sorry to have done that but circumstances and my own mental well-being demanded it. Given that the next Day phase will occur over the weekend, I hope I will be more available to contribute to to this game in the next few days. For those of you that have given me the benefit of your doubt and are willing to believe in me, I appreciate that a lot.

There is a lot to catch up on but my vote is my first priority. I'll admit to having mixed feelings about LoRab. While I agree that she's almost certainly Cylon, I am (perhaps naively) willing to accept that her claims of not being Mafia may indeed be true. I hope for all our sakes, I'm wrong about that but as this lynch is already a foregone conclusion, my vote won't influence that outcome one way or the other. Of the other wagons, we have DFaraday the against whom is based largely on his lack of posting/involvement in this game. Whilst I agree that is suspicious, I see has been subbed-out so I'm happy to assume that his lack of involvement was the consequence factors external to this game and am satisfied to see how things progress over coming days. Sig and Zebs - REALLY??? I don't think I can recall a game I've played here where the two of you (rightly or wrongly) weren't at each other throats at some point

I still firmly hold the opinion that you are both very misguided Town members - I just wish the two of you could see what I do.

Looking back, I DO regret my vote on Magnus (Nerolunar). Only hours before my vote on him, he (as team mate of mine) helped to achieve something truly remarkable on another site and I feel now that I should've given him the benefit of the doubt in my suspicions at that time. I don't intend to make that same mistake again. My vote this phase will go where it belongs - on the person I most genuinely believe to be working against our cause in this game DrWilgy

On a side note for whatever difference it makes, I no longer harbour any suspicions against SokothQultug. After having read his recent posts, I think I may have misunderstood something in our earlier exchange. For what it's worth, I apologise and am happy to move him on over to my heavily Town-leaning reads.

Polo wrote:
Polo wrote:Both sig and Glorfindel voted for someone other than Nutella on D2 and voted Nerolunar on D3. Spooky
Would you two claim Colon already?

I cannot speak for Sig. As for me...

Polo wrote:Glorfindel, do you have a legitimate reason not to claim Cylon? Are you John Cavil?

I am here JJJ, please make good use of my time.

Largely a matter of principle and no, you have my word that I am not John Cavil. I want to re-read the cases for and against in relation to the claiming thing. I do however suspect something entirely sinister is going on here (feel free to call me paranoid. I have a question for you though - would Youi or anyone like to speculate on why we had the Cylon Amnesty Act in the first place? What could our President been trying to achieve by passing that law? I'd be most interested in any conjecture anyone would care to volunteer on this matter.

Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:GTH GO

EPIGNOSIS- Can't even walk comfortably right now

GLORFINDEL- Evil

G-MAN- Evil

I genuinely mean this - I'm deeply hurt that you could say that

Epignosis wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:GTH GO

EPIGNOSIS- Can't even walk comfortably right now

GLORFINDEL- Evil

G-MAN- Evil
I genuinely mean this - I'm deeply hurt that you could say that
I'm amazed you care that much about my opinion.

My contribution this game has been far from stellar so far and I'll put my hand up for that. I can accept that some people could perceive that as my being 'bad' (and I'll do my best to correct that) but 'evil' denotes a whole level of 'badness' of which I don't consider myself capable. That anyone could think that, I find disturbing... Just sayin'...

Epignosis wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:GTH GO

EPIGNOSIS- Can't even walk comfortably right now

GLORFINDEL- Evil

G-MAN- Evil
I genuinely mean this - I'm deeply hurt that you could say that
I'm amazed you care that much about my opinion.
My contribution this game has been far from stellar so far and I'll put my hand up for that. I can accept that some people could perceive that as my being 'bad' (and I'll do my best to correct that) but 'evil' denotes a whole level of 'badness' of which I don't consider myself capable. That anyone could think that, I find disturbing... Just sayin'...
No, let's not play sensitive. I was calling people evil left and right. You didn't stand up in their defense- only your own.

Evil means you got a role that is bad, a murderer, a scumbot, a criminal, a real killer, a two-timer, a faker, a rogue, a scoundrel, a fiend. I am not criticizing your contribution. I am calling you BAD. As in you should be lynched regardless of your contribution.

As in, thanks, but no thanks.

Well, that makes sense - in some universe I guess... I can only speak for myself and thanks so much - I won't ever be approaching you for a character reference...

Glorfindel wrote:
Polo wrote:Glorfindel, do you have a legitimate reason not to claim Cylon? Are you John Cavil?

I am here JJJ, please make good use of my time.
Largely a matter of principle and no, you have my word that I am not John Cavil. I want to re-read the cases for and against in relation to the claiming thing. I do however suspect something entirely sinister is going on here (feel free to call me paranoid. I have a question for you though - would Youi or anyone like to speculate on why we had the Cylon Amnesty Act in the first place? What could our President been trying to achieve by passing that law? I'd be most interested in any conjecture anyone would care to volunteer on this matter.

I notice that I've had no response to this question that I asked - so I will ask again...

Polo wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Polo wrote:Glorfindel, do you have a legitimate reason not to claim Cylon? Are you John Cavil?
I am here JJJ, please make good use of my time.
Largely a matter of principle and no, you have my word that I am not John Cavil. I want to re-read the cases for and against in relation to the claiming thing. I do however suspect something entirely sinister is going on here (feel free to call me paranoid. I have a question for you though - would Youi or anyone like to speculate on why we had the Cylon Amnesty Act in the first place? What could our President been trying to achieve by passing that law? I'd be most interested in any conjecture anyone would care to volunteer on this matter.
I notice that I've had no response to this question that I asked - so I will ask again...
Sorry, got caught up in the GTH I guess.

I believe that Admiral Cain could be of an independent party with win conditions that differ from those of the civ team, and so she's not exactly town.
Golden probably thought of adding her as a way to raise difficulty and sow confusion into the game and make us all question "why the hell did we sign up for this (?)".

Oh, and by the way, why did you abstain from answering the GTH?

I mean, you posted this question amidst the gun-to-head moment. I guess it is my turn to suspect that something entirely sinister is going on here.

Maybe independent - I can see your point there. As for your assertion that Golden wanted to "raise the level of difficulty and sow confusion" I'd put it to you that was completely unnecessary on his part (at least from my perspective). In retrospect, what you're saying makes some sense although you haven't answered my question. I asked (quite clearly I thought) about the original law passed by the President giving amnesty to our Cylon friends and what circumstances may have led to that

I wonder whether LoRab was Mafia at all. In fact, I have grave doubts whether the majority of the Cylons are Mafia which makes me all the more suspicious of attempts by some to take away the benefit provided under the Amnesty Act to the Cylons. The general consensus as I read things here is that the Admiral's intents are not favourably to us and yet, we have certain people only too happy to have all our Cylon friends lynched DESPITE the fact the original law appears to have been passed with the purpose of having them remain in the game. I don't think it's a big stretch to assume that if there are any Cylons on the Mafia team (e.g. John Cavil) they would've been among the first people to rally support for the declaration thing.

As for my non participation in the GTH thing, I am Australian. I work full time. At the time I was posting, I'd only just finished lunch (feel free to check the time zone if you like - I'm on AEST) and was trying to post in between doing stuff at work. Not that you'll accept the truth anyway as you've made your opinion of me quite clear. As for my voting record, I'm not proud of it but I stand by it. I've already discussed my choices and believe that they were consistent with my previously expressed comments throughout the game and I don't appreciate other players trying to fabricate my record into something that it isn't. Thank you.

sig wrote:Aww I messed up my own joke by bolding and not underlining.

Also this was the first GTH that everyone read me as bad.
You'd be wrong, but if it will help your concerns I'll claim cylon tomorrow. Since I'd rather not be lynched.

You disappoint me my friend

I certainly don't think you're bad and I've been consistent in that view throughout this game. Given that, this post of yours makes me sad although I suppose, looking back, I shouldn't be surprised... You're forgiven

Furthermore @Polo - although I didn't get to participate in the GTH but (unlike some others) I've been quite transparent (and yes, consistent) on my reads of many players - again, feel free to go back and look for yourself.

@SilverWolf: I think in the GTH, I recall that you indicated that you didn't have a favour able impression of me. May I ask why? If you'd prefer not to volunteer that assessment, that's fine but I'm curious whether you were influenced by the views of others or there was some reason you personally didn't like the cut of my jib

Silverwolf wrote:Also, glorfindel the tone of your posts is very appeasy like which I take more as a scum thing because town generally doesn't try to appease people for the most part and has a more hard-headed approach where you are trying to please and not taking any stances that are too harsh on anything.

Hope this makes sense as I have to go for awhile.

Thank you, my friend. I do see what you're saying and I do appreciate you taking the time to explain your opinion for me. I've not played with you before but I have with a fair number of people in this game and my approach has changed little from my previous games here as Town and as I explained at the beginning of this game, I'm attempting to identify those I consider fellow Town before I begin looking more intently at those who don''t make that cut. I don't know if that makes sense to you or anyone else but it is what it is. I don't think it's entirely fair if you are inferring (not in any rude way of course) that I should be more aggressive like we've witnessed here from other players this game because it'll be a cold day in hell before that happens...

Ricochet wrote:Glorfindel circumventing lynching a Cylon so much is starting to make my nose twitch.

I'm just trying to catch up this morning and saw this... I'm sorry Rico but I don't understand what it is you're referring to here

Also...
Is anyone here experiencing difficulties accessing this site? It started off sporadically at the start of this game but is becoming more frequent messages saying "Server not found" when I try to log in. I'm not experiencing this with any other site...

Ricochet wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Ricochet wrote:Glorfindel circumventing lynching a Cylon so much is starting to make my nose twitch.
I'm just trying to catch up this morning and saw this... I'm sorry Rico but I don't understand what it is you're referring to here Also...
Is anyone here experiencing difficulties accessing this site? It started off sporadically at the start of this game but is becoming more frequent messages saying "Server not found" when I try to log in. I'm not experiencing this with any other site...
Day Two, Cylon nutella gets lynched, you drop a last vote on a long meaningless counterwagon.
Day Three, Cylon LoRab is outed, you resort to the counterwagon this time and mislynch a civilian.
Day Four, Cylon LoRab is lynched, you vote a mile away from the main action on Wilgy.

I'm sorry, Rico but you are wrong about this. I'll vote for who I believe should be removed for the good of the Town's cause. I've already said that I personally didn't see a case on Nutella (like the vast majority of players that voted that Day) and at the time, I believed that LC's continued presence was detrimental to our cause (I no longer believe that). Not only that, but all that lynch proved was that Nutella was Cylon, NOT that she was Mafia. I explained (twice now) why I voted for Magnus (Nerolunar) and wholeheartedly agree now that it was a mistake to think that his alignment would reveal the alignment of another player. The last Day phase, I chose to lynch someone I have consistently expressed concerns about over someone who'd already had an unassailable lead in the vote. Do you always vote for the lead wagon? And again, from everything I've read, I think that LoRab's statements were correct. I think there is a high likelihood that she was not Mafia and this whole 'kill all the Cylons' thing is a ruse being perpetrated on a Town team by a devious and manipulative Mafia team.

Polo wrote:Those who have yet to claim Cylon:

a2thezebra
Epignosis
Glorfindel
ObscureAllure
Ricochet
sig
SokothQultuq
Vompatti

I think the problem we have here is the continued assumption that Cylon Mafia are in this list. If there are Cylon Mafia they'd have claimed ages ago so as to not draw attention to themselves. It makes no logical sense to me that they would draw attention to themselves by remaining on that list.

Also, Sig - I very respectfully ask you to reconsider very carefully your claiming next Day phase. I don't REALLY believe that you are the 'Sun-god'

) but I AM convinced that you are Town and I think your claiming is not in the best interests of our Team. Sometimes, it's more important to do 'the right thing' for the good of the team.

Ricochet wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Ricochet wrote:Glorfindel circumventing lynching a Cylon so much is starting to make my nose twitch.
I'm just trying to catch up this morning and saw this... I'm sorry Rico but I don't understand what it is you're referring to here Also...
Is anyone here experiencing difficulties accessing this site? It started off sporadically at the start of this game but is becoming more frequent messages saying "Server not found" when I try to log in. I'm not experiencing this with any other site...
Day Two, Cylon nutella gets lynched, you drop a last vote on a long meaningless counterwagon.
Day Three, Cylon LoRab is outed, you resort to the counterwagon this time and mislynch a civilian.
Day Four, Cylon LoRab is lynched, you vote a mile away from the main action on Wilgy.
I'm sorry, Rico but you are wrong about this. I'll vote for who I believe should be removed for the good of the Town's cause. I've already said that I personally didn't see a case on Nutella (like the vast majority of players that voted that Day) and at the time, I believed that LC's continued presence was detrimental to our cause (I no longer believe that). Not only that, but all that lynch proved was that Nutella was Cylon, NOT that she was Mafia. I explained (twice now) why I voted for Magnus (Nerolunar) and wholeheartedly agree now that it was a mistake to think that his alignment would reveal the alignment of another player. The last Day phase, I chose to lynch someone I have consistently expressed concerns about over someone who'd already had an unassailable lead in the vote. Do you always vote for the lead wagon? And again, from everything I've read, I think that LoRab's statements were correct. I think there is a high likelihood that she was not Mafia and this whole 'kill all the Cylons' thing is a ruse being perpetrated on a Town team by a devious and manipulative Mafia team.
You don't say.

So you didn't vote LoRab because she was already a goner, but did you express any thoughts on her status as outed Cylon and her removal or not? Cause if yes and they were negative, why didn't you vote for her after all? And if no, that brings us back to you keeping yourself rather separate from any Cylon lynching business.

And also, you didn't vote for the top wagon, but did you not have anything to address about the other, slightly more fledged wagons?

I don't see how much of this defense exonerates you. At best, I simply don't have a strong idea in which camp to place you,

Yes, indeed I do!

And you are correct - I don't recall having made any comments about LoRab prior to yesterday's lynch. I have only limited time to devote to Mafia games but generally, I enjoy the challenge and meeting new people online. I don't have the time to create and maintain spreadsheets or even mentally keep track of what every player in a game is doing. It may indeed have been remiss of me to have not gotten more involved in the LoRab case earlier but I thought it better to spread my net a little more widely. If you look back at my post I DID address the other prevailing wagons and my thoughts on them at the time of my vote. I stand by those judgements now.

I don't recall having played with you before other than maybe Pikmin Mafia but I do appreciate you taking the time to engage with me and discuss these matters irrespective of your personal deliberations of the camp in which you place me.

So Say We All!

@Polo: Thanks for your vote on me my friend - you seem suspiciously eager to get a wagon started on me and a little over an hour later, G-Man comes in and promises a case on me...

I know you've already cast your vote but I'd really, REALLY like you to answer my question. This is (I believe) the fourth time I've asked so I'm beginning to wonder now if you're deliberately avoiding answering it for some reason. You've obviously thought this whole thing Cylon claiming thing through, so it shouldn't be THAT hard to answer, should it

Glorfindel wrote:
Polo wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Polo wrote:Glorfindel, do you have a legitimate reason not to claim Cylon? Are you John Cavil?
I am here JJJ, please make good use of my time.
Largely a matter of principle and no, you have my word that I am not John Cavil. I want to re-read the cases for and against in relation to the claiming thing. I do however suspect something entirely sinister is going on here (feel free to call me paranoid. I have a question for you though - would Youi or anyone like to speculate on why we had the Cylon Amnesty Act in the first place? What could our President been trying to achieve by passing that law? I'd be most interested in any conjecture anyone would care to volunteer on this matter.
I notice that I've had no response to this question that I asked - so I will ask again...
Sorry, got caught up in the GTH I guess.

I believe that Admiral Cain could be of an independent party with win conditions that differ from those of the civ team, and so she's not exactly town.
Golden probably thought of adding her as a way to raise difficulty and sow confusion into the game and make us all question "why the hell did we sign up for this (?)".

Oh, and by the way, why did you abstain from answering the GTH?

I mean, you posted this question amidst the gun-to-head moment. I guess it is my turn to suspect that something entirely sinister is going on here.
Maybe independent - I can see your point there. As for your assertion that Golden wanted to "raise the level of difficulty and sow confusion" I'd put it to you that was completely unnecessary on his part (at least from my perspective). In retrospect, what you're saying makes some sense although you haven't answered my question. I asked (quite clearly I thought) about the original law passed by the President giving amnesty to our Cylon friends and what circumstances may have led to that

I wonder whether LoRab was Mafia at all. In fact, I have grave doubts whether the majority of the Cylons are Mafia which makes me all the more suspicious of attempts by some to take away the benefit provided under the Amnesty Act to the Cylons. The general consensus as I read things here is that the Admiral's intents are not favourably to us and yet, we have certain people only too happy to have all our Cylon friends lynched DESPITE the fact the original law appears to have been passed with the purpose of having them remain in the game. I don't think it's a big stretch to assume that if there are any Cylons on the Mafia team (e.g. John Cavil) they would've been among the first people to rally support for the declaration thing.

As for my non participation in the GTH thing, I am Australian. I work full time. At the time I was posting, I'd only just finished lunch (feel free to check the time zone if you like - I'm on AEST) and was trying to post in between doing stuff at work. Not that you'll accept the truth anyway as you've made your opinion of me quite clear. As for my voting record, I'm not proud of it but I stand by it. I've already discussed my choices and believe that they were consistent with my previously expressed comments throughout the game and I don't appreciate other players trying to fabricate my record into something that it isn't. Thank you.

Matt wrote:Updated list of Non-Claimers

a2thezebra
DrWilgy
Epignosis
Glorfindel
OA
Ricotech
Sokoth
Vompatti

How many players do we have in the game? 24, 25? Two-thirds of the town have agreed that claiming is in the town's best interest, so essentially, all of these players are anti-town as of now.

We need to put pressure on them. Do I think they're all "bad" ? No. Do I think Cavil and/or other bad cylons are hiding in this bunch? Absolutely.

I think we should start with OA, who can't claim cuz of "punishments" but will totes claim if we lynch LC despite "punishments".

ObscureAllure

Linki - Oh okay, nvm now she was "just kidding". Someone help me pressure her please.

So Say We All!

I'm sorry, my friend but you're posting the wrong list... The list that YOU should be posting (that would be infinitely more helpful to us) is the list of players that HAVE claimed in sequence of when they claimed (and preferably with the times they claimed so we can timeline them). Let me make this crystal clear, I'm in no way accusing you of anything but others (like well, umm Polo for instance) who seem obsessed with the first list you posted are I believe leading us down the garden path. What is happening here is what is referred to as selection bias and it's being perpetrated on a Town team that is largely far to accepting of it. Continually posting that list only focuses attention on those that for a variety of different reasons have not claimed.

As I said earlier, it seems only logical to me that the real Baddies have already jumped ship and claimed leaving them time to hide and help drive lynches on those who haven't/won't claim and so gain an advantage over us. I am highly suspicious of those who insist on driving this misguided agenda.

G-Man wrote:Ay caramba! Looks like we're more divided on how to handle today's lynch the the United Methodist Church is over the issue of homosexuality. Good thing we have an extra day for this one. We may need it.

Ohaithur Glorfindel! I'll be aiming to fix your little red wagon during tonight's hockey game.

Stay tuned. Glorfindel case part 2 and some player reads coming soon. I can actually keep this promise tonight because the baby is doing MUCH better today!

I look forward to it my friend! Just do us all a favour though - refrain from criticising my voting record that I have already explained and come up with something other than biased conjecture against me like you've been doing since the beginning of this game.

I'd also like to say one more thing about the Sig situation. I've played I think four games with him now on this site. On (I think) every occasion, I've seen him lynched or NK'd early in the game. I acknowledge that on occasion, I have been party to that and was wrong on most if not all of those occasions. What I'm getting at here, is it seems Sig is an easy target in these games (makes me wonder frankly why he keeps coming back

). I think what we're seeing here is (as he himself commented) a lot of "Sig's bad, he must be Mafia." As I said earlier in this thread, his contributions were thin and somewhat ill-informed and that was quite legitimately explained as a consequence of his absence doing assignments, etc. I've rather a lot of experience with Sig as Mafia (far too much for my liking

) and I am absolutely convinced that it is NOT what we're seeing from him here in this game.

At this point, I still believe DrWilgy is most worthy of my vote but as others have said, it's a looooong day...

G-Man wrote:A review of my first critique of Glorfindel is probably the best place to start :
Spoiler: show
G-Man wrote:A preface is in order to understand where I'm coming from.

I don't usually look for teammate behavior until I have vote data pointing me in that direction. I also don't track people's meta because I've never been the best at it. When looking at Nutella, I saw individual behavior that looked bad to me. My theory on Glorfindel is built around similar observations.

Check out his post history.

His first four posts include the following:
-Whoops I missed the start of the game
-Whoops I didn't read the rules
-A slight civ vibe based on skim reading
-A funny post of no substance
-Whoops I missed the vote

Then two mechanics related posts, and an "I'm catching up (43 pages in) but totally lost" post, lowering our expectations for Day 2.

On Day 2, we get:
-a post where he says he feels good about Matt and Zebra
-a mechanics related post on Toaster allegiance
-another mechanics post
-an oy, complicated show lore + complicated game mechanics = headache post
-another mechanics post
-a big long post where he hands out some civ reads but comes up empty on suspicions

Then there is the post where he says he finds it hard to take IAWY seriously without explaining what that means. Does he think IAWY is bad or just acting differently?

Then a "don't call me a slacker" kind of post responding to my LRD vibe pickup. He says he's trying but it's hard but he's not very good at the whole forming baddie reads.

Then he takes two posts to help DrWilgy sort out what thoughts were about IAWY to help him better understand the situation he's walking into. Helpful for Wilgy but not the big picture.

He says he thinks LC might be trying to get lynched (agreeing with SVS) but that LC's sortie hijack makes him as unhelpful civvie at best and mafia at worst.

He votes Long Con Day 2 for "reasons already stated" but his prior post didn't even label LC as suspicious. He just viewed him as a liability to the civvies. The way he worded it is shady because, rather than restate his reasons, he puts it on the reader to go back and find his reasons on their own. Because, you know, it's easy to remember the mild suspicions of a quietish player in a game with 2,500 posts.

When Silverwolf presses him for justification of his vote during Night 2, he finds a handful of detailed points that made it a reasonable choice for him. Where was all this info when he cast his vote? Nowhere. When he voted, he said "reasons already stated," which alluded to a post that only covered maybe two out of the five points he unloaded at night.

Then you've got a bunch of empty banter and trying to pitch in with the sorties overnight and into Day 3.

Later there is a post where he agrees with JJJ, calls a few people civ, and throwing shade at Sokoth without committing to calling him sus. Then a post defending sig, a post clarifying his stance on mechanics, and a post where he thinks something JJJ proves his point about either sig or mechanics (I'm not sure which).

He apologizes to LC for his vote and lists a few players he thinks LC is wrong about. Finally he chastises Sokoth for finally forming some opinions because Sokoth takes aim at Glorfindel for what looks like a hasty "NO U" reaction.

Early on, he sounds like someone trying to figure out game mechanics but he focuses solely on Toaster mechanics. There's the complete lack of calling anyone suspicious three days into the game. Fluff banter to look helpful and pad that post count too.

Any one of these on their own would seem harmless but all three of them combined sets off alarms in my brain. Asking questions and discussing no -suspicion related issues without the willingness to put some skin in the game just feels wrong.

Does any of this sound reasonable or am I working up another Keyser Soze?
I'm going to pick up with Glorfindel's reaction to my case.
Follow his post history if you like. I'll be starting out at this post:
Glorfindel wrote:
G-Man wrote:Finally he chastises Sokoth for finally forming some opinions because Sokoth takes aim at Glorfindel for what looks like a hasty "NO U" reaction.
Is that REALLY how you see that exchange my friend? I was chastising 'Sokoth' for precisely the opposite - I don't consider random, unsubstantiated accusations 'opinions'. I seriously doubt that anyone else here would. I AM genuinely trying to figure out this game and although I may be 'tinfoiling' for the first time I seriously think there is more to this game than the simplistic black and white view some people have adopted. Personally, I think what you've painted there is a pretty flimsy case almost rivaling the 'Two Face' accusation leveled at me in my last game here. Nonetheless, if that's the best you can do in finding a Mafia Team member, good for you.

One thing that has concerned me for some time time now is my initial exchange with IAWY. As I stated in the Sign-up thread, he was the reason I even signed up for this game. In the last game we played together, I defended him from the 'get go'. Given our history together, I find it extraordinary that he would make an accusation against me Day 1 like he did. After Dr Wilgy replaced him, gave him the benefit of the doubt and have heard practically nothing since. Then there was the exchange between IAWY and Magnus (Nerolunar). In retrospect, the whole 'No, you!' exchange doesn't really look as convincing as it did at the time. Distancing, perhaps...
A handful of people thought my post had some merit and, at the very least, required a response from Glorfindel on several of my observations, leading to this response from Glorfindel:

Glorfindel wrote:
sig wrote:Also I'm seriously considering voting for Glorfindel he only answered one portion of Gman's case and he seemed super defensive which I seem to remember is a baddie tell of his. However, I need to think on it since I have been wrong about him before.

Another thing which bothered me is him civ reading me. Civ Glorfindel always thinks I'm mafia or at the very least he is paranoid agaisnt me, he seemed to civ read me way to quickly this game. It could be an attempt to buddy me or just to get credit if I flipped.
Sig, G-Man's post was quit extensive but without a lot of content that I feel I can adequately address in the short time I have at my disposal (I am actually at work...) I am not super defensive at all. Someone actually goes to the trouble of putting a case together against me (even though he's wrong, I appreciate his effort - seems it's beyond some players here...) and I'm asked to refute those claims. I do, and you accuse me of being super-defensive? REALLY?

Yes, I believe you're Town, There, said it. I don't see you're problem with that opinion. I'd never 'buddy you' and if you honestly believe that... After all this time, if I don't know Town Sig by now... I don't see your problem - unless I'm wrong about you?
That line in pink led me to believe that he would come back later and address my case. Did he?

Not here.
Nor here.
Or here,
here,
or even here.
Here is a casual dismissal of my points altogether.

By all means, please check his post history to fact check me but he never comes back to defend himself against my observations. He said initially that he didn't have time to respond to me because he was at work, which I'm fine with but to ignore me later when he might have time raises another red flag for me.

From that last post I linked to, Glorfindel did have time to discuss (on a post-by-post basis)...

-Defending his voting record
-How lost he is (while mentioning my name among his likely civ reads, as if that gets him back in my good graces
-win cons and his votes
-a blend of lore and mechanics
-Hey wow! He discusses people and even casts shade on Wilgy. Barely.

Then a bunch of fluffy fluff that fluffs to pad ye ole post count. Then what amuses me is this post:

Glorfindel wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Polo wrote:Glorfindel, do you have a legitimate reason not to claim Cylon? Are you John Cavil?

I am here JJJ, please make good use of my time.
Largely a matter of principle and no, you have my word that I am not John Cavil. I want to re-read the cases for and against in relation to the claiming thing. I do however suspect something entirely sinister is going on here (feel free to call me paranoid. I have a question for you though - would Youi or anyone like to speculate on why we had the Cylon Amnesty Act in the first place? What could our President been trying to achieve by passing that law? I'd be most interested in any conjecture anyone would care to volunteer on this matter.
I notice that I've had no response to this question that I asked - so I will ask again...
So when I write up a huge post detailing several instances of shady behavior, you can blow it off like it ain't no thang, but when no one answers your role/mechanics question you feel the need to point out the lack of a response? Dang yo, that is cold.

I'm sorry dude, but your posts don't read like someone who is struggling to tread water. You read more like someone doing the dog paddle, letting everyone around you make waves that let you coast by largely as an afterthought. I'd like to see you doing the dead man's float soon.

Thank you my friend for reposting all that. I apologise that I forgot to get back to you but let me address that now. Looking at your initial installment, it is little more than an utterly biased summary of my post history to that point. It was not remotely balanced and the language you used to describe what I said was clearly sarcastic and biased. It was in no way objective and frankly leaves me at a loss as to what concerns you were raising

You criticise me for not accusing anyone for three days (after quoting references I made to players like DrWilgy and Sokoth). Not everyone in this game feels it necessary to be direct and aggressive my friend - something you might like to consider yourself. As I'd said previously (in one of my quotes you apparently conveniently overlooked) I am trying to approach this game more conservatively (for reasons which I think should be obvious) and solve it by eliminating from my list of suspects those about whom I feel most comfortable leaving those to whom I would look more closely as Mafia.

You accuse me of spending time "focusing on Toaster mechanics" (whatever the hell that means

) but if you're referring to trying to understand how this game is working, yeah, damn straight I was and I still am. It seems to me that I am one of very few that don't see this game as a simplistic Human vs Cylon dynamic. If you disagree with me, that's fine but I think that's a flimsy basis upon which to build your accusations against me.

As for your latest effort, all I can see is that you feel disgruntled about me not having got back to you about your first accusation. You claim that "a handful of people felt your post had merit" but looking back, I can't see how. I'd be surprised if there were many people playing this game that lacked the objectivity to the hostile and unbalanced nature of your description of my words.

Again, let me spell this out to you my friend - I'm sorry that I didn't respond earlier to you but if had you'd have gotten verbatim what I posted above. If you expect me to be direct and aggressive in my dealings with others here, you'll be sadly disappointed. You can go back and look at every game I've played on this site and the dozens that I've played elsewhere and you'll find that my interactions with other players are almost conservative and polite. As I said to someone in the last game I played here, If you've got a problem with that, then that is your problem, not mine.

Polo wrote:Well, I am not the President, I am not Golden and I have no certainty over why the law was enacted, but it could have been a way of making it clear that there should be town Cylons in this game.

We still need to kill Cavil, though. Help us do so by claiming Cylon, will ya?

I want to sincerely thank you for taking the time to answer my question, my friend. I acknowledge that you didn't (in all likelihood) enact the law yourself and I totally endorse your presumption that it "could've been a way of making it clear that there should be Town Cylons in this game". But think about that for a minute - it doesn't make any sense in a world where the majority or even a significant number of Cylons are Mafia - UNLESS... the vast majority of Cylons AREN'T Mafia! That's been my problem with this whole Cylon Amnesty declaration thing all along. The general consensus (from my reading of things) is that the Admiral is working to a non-Town agenda by implementing win conditions under martial law that require the elimination of all our Cylon friends. If the Cylon Amnesty Act has never been repealed and we believe was passed for pro-Town reasons, I ask you, what harm have we potentially done to our chances of winning this game by eliminating a mechanic that may very well have been intended to give us some advantage?

I DO however agree with you about John Cavil. If there was one Cylon that is part of a Mafia team it would most likely be him. As I said before though, I think it's more likely that he's already jumped ship. Put yourself in his shoes - as things stand right now, which side of the fence would you rather be on? The side where there's seven or eight players you can help divert attention to and have the Town waste countless Day phases lynching or leave yourself isolated amongst a small group of players that are the focus of a lot of people's attention?

G-Man wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
G-Man wrote:Am I crazy or is this yet another total non-answer? Can someone with an objective viewpoint on this show me where Glorfindel actually addressed my issues? All I read is a dismissive shuck and jive. I don't care what your play looks like in other games on this site. I don't track meta. Instead of looking for what "player X does when they are bad" I found what looks like suspicious behavior in general. As I said before, I could tolerate one or two of the things you appear guilty of (focus on mechanics, focus on lore, giving good reads only, giving lukewarm suspicions) but the amalgamation of all of those things sticks out like a sore thumb to me. And this isn't even a Keyser Soze thing for me because I'm not trying to string together everything you've done, reading it all with nefarious intent. These are simple observations. Someone other than Glorfindel please correct me if I'm wrong but his posts strike me as a steaming pile of BS.

You know my friend, it crossed my mind that your accusations (and perhaps more the manner of them) was some kind of punishment for 'treason' or some other reason but on a site that purports not to condone such behavior, that's probably not likely. You claim my response to your accusations was a 'non-answer' and dismissive. The truth is, I couldn't adequately sort through the insults, invective and blatant bias of your third-rate hatchet job to identify what your concerns were. In the post above though, you make more direct reference to a few things that I will address AGAIN because you're clearly not interested in my answers. According to you, I'm guilty of:

1) Focussing on mechanics - I fail to see how that is in any way a negative thing? The mechanics in this game appear to be totally different to any other game I've played and from what I've seen over the last 135 odd pages, I'm not alone in that boat. I've said repeatedly that I don't believe that this game is not about black and white (Human vs Cylon) and those that hold the opposite view are leading us by a fast path to defeat at the hands of our Mafia friends who must know the truth. Further, others have focused heavily on mechanics too, I don't see your accusations of them

2) A focus on lore - I didn't raise this, I've never seen the show (other than a couple of the original series episodes which didn't do much for me) but it is apparent that it has some bearing on this game. I know that Golden mentioned at the beginning that a knowledge of the lore wasn't necessary but in my view, it does help in that it serves to give us an indication of the motivations and relationships between different characters (e.g. the whole Admiral Caine thing).

3) Giving only good reads - I honestly don't know how many times I need to repeat this but in previous games (both here and elsewhere) I have (too often in my opinion) rushed to lynch players on what I thought were valid reasons only to find that I was mistaken. I don't expect you to understand this but I think I am more adept at determining that someone is Town than I am concluding that they are Mafia. This is what I've referred to in my previous posts as a process of elimination. That's NOT to conclude that I haven't had suspicions - I have and I've said so. If you're miffed that I'm not throwing around accusations indiscriminately, that's too bad. That's not my style. Never was, never will. My approach to these games IS both methodical and conservative. You say you don't care about player's styles that they reveal in previous games? Well, maybe you should.

So there you have it. I don't expect for even a fraction of a second that you will be satisfied with my explanations because you very clearly have made your mind up. I would hope however that if nothing else, other players in this game will see through your accusations for what they truly are. A number of other players have voiced their suspicions of me in ways that (whilst misguided) have been respectful. You on the other hand resort to insult and ridicule. I don't think that's smart and I don't think that's funny - it's exactly what I'd expect from a schoolyard bully.

G-Man wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
G-Man wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
G-Man wrote:Am I crazy or is this yet another total non-answer? Can someone with an objective viewpoint on this show me where Glorfindel actually addressed my issues? All I read is a dismissive shuck and jive. I don't care what your play looks like in other games on this site. I don't track meta. Instead of looking for what "player X does when they are bad" I found what looks like suspicious behavior in general. As I said before, I could tolerate one or two of the things you appear guilty of (focus on mechanics, focus on lore, giving good reads only, giving lukewarm suspicions) but the amalgamation of all of those things sticks out like a sore thumb to me. And this isn't even a Keyser Soze thing for me because I'm not trying to string together everything you've done, reading it all with nefarious intent. These are simple observations. Someone other than Glorfindel please correct me if I'm wrong but his posts strike me as a steaming pile of BS.
You know my friend, it crossed my mind that your accusations (and perhaps more the manner of them) was some kind of punishment for 'treason' or some other reason but on a site that purports not to condone such behavior, that's probably not likely. You claim my response to your accusations was a 'non-answer' and dismissive. The truth is, I couldn't adequately sort through the insults, invective and blatant bias of your third-rate hatchet job to identify what your concerns were. In the post above though, you make more direct reference to a few things that I will address AGAIN because you're clearly not interested in my answers. According to you, I'm guilty of:

1) Focussing on mechanics - I fail to see how that is in any way a negative thing? The mechanics in this game appear to be totally different to any other game I've played and from what I've seen over the last 135 odd pages, I'm not alone in that boat. I've said repeatedly that I don't believe that this game is not about black and white (Human vs Cylon) and those that hold the opposite view are leading us by a fast path to defeat at the hands of our Mafia friends who must know the truth. Further, others have focused heavily on mechanics too, I don't see your accusations of them

2) A focus on lore - I didn't raise this, I've never seen the show (other than a couple of the original series episodes which didn't do much for me) but it is apparent that it has some bearing on this game. I know that Golden mentioned at the beginning that a knowledge of the lore wasn't necessary but in my view, it does help in that it serves to give us an indication of the motivations and relationships between different characters (e.g. the whole Admiral Caine thing).

3) Giving only good reads - I honestly don't know how many times I need to repeat this but in previous games (both here and elsewhere) I have (too often in my opinion) rushed to lynch players on what I thought were valid reasons only to find that I was mistaken. I don't expect you to understand this but I think I am more adept at determining that someone is Town than I am concluding that they are Mafia. This is what I've referred to in my previous posts as a process of elimination. That's NOT to conclude that I haven't had suspicions - I have and I've said so. If you're miffed that I'm not throwing around accusations indiscriminately, that's too bad. That's not my style. Never was, never will. My approach to these games IS both methodical and conservative. You say you don't care about player's styles that they reveal in previous games? Well, maybe you should.

So there you have it. I don't expect for even a fraction of a second that you will be satisfied with my explanations because you very clearly have made your mind up. I would hope however that if nothing else, other players in this game will see through your accusations for what they truly are. A number of other players have voiced their suspicions of me in ways that (whilst misguided) have been respectful. You on the other hand resort to insult and ridicule. I don't think that's smart and I don't think that's funny - it's exactly what I'd expect from a schoolyard bully.
All I take from this is the impression that you are putting forth a gallant, high-road response act in the effort of making me look like an irrational and pushy jerk. If this is your intent, I'd like to think it won't work because enough of the players who go way back with me will know that I don't play like a pushy jerk. Playing a few smaller games has helped me improve my ability to observe and identity sketchy behavior. It's not foolproof yet but I feel that I've seen enough sketchy behavior out of you to pounce.

I'm sorry, my friend, it wasn't me that made you look that way...

Epignosis wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:So there you have it. I don't expect for even a fraction of a second that you will be satisfied with my explanations because you very clearly have made your mind up. I would hope however that if nothing else, other players in this game will see through your accusations for what they truly are. A number of other players have voiced their suspicions of me in ways that (whilst misguided) have been respectful. You on the other hand resort to insult and ridicule. I don't think that's smart and I don't think that's funny - it's exactly what I'd expect from a schoolyard bully.
Please show me, with a quote and not a paraphrase, one instance of G-Man casting an insult toward you.

G-Man wrote:Did you attend the George W. Bush School of Preemptive Strikes?

G-Man wrote:Someone other than Glorfindel please correct me if I'm wrong but his posts strike me as a steaming pile of BS.

I've no doubt Epi, that you will deny that G-Man's remarks that I've quoted above are insulting. Taken in isolation, I would agree with you. Combined however with the sarcastic and overtly aggressive tone that he has used in practically every post he has made about me says more I think about him than it does about his views on me and this game in general. His tone and the language he used to describe what I've said is CLEARLY biased to his point of view that he has been pushing all game and it CLEARLY lacks any shred of objectivity). As I pointed out earlier, other players like SilverWolf have asked me questions in a respectful manner and I've been happy to answer her concerns as best I can. G-Man has said that people on this site are familiar with his 'style' and believes that he carries more credibility than I do. That may well be true - he may have your credibitity on his side - I have the truth on mine (just like I did in Arkham Mafia. I want to make this crystal clear - I am not suggesting that G-Man is Mafia (the jury's gone out on that one again...) but he's certainly misguided.

I see that SilverWolf claims that my response to G-Man's claims are defensive. I don't belive that is necessarily true. I addressed the concerns that G-Man raised as fully and as sincerely as I am able. I struggle to see how else I am to answer these allegations that have been made against me without being defensive???

At the end of the Day, you can vote for me or not. That's up to you - that decision is in your hands.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Exercise time: for just a moment, erase all notions of that claiming business from your mind. Tell me who your suspects are.

I'd be more than happy to answer your question my friend. I have had bad vibes about IAWY/DrWilgey since the beginning for reasons that I've already explained. I still find IAWY's remarks about me to be incomprehensible in light of my previous experiences with him. I'm not certain what it says but it's given me sufficient reason for suspicion. I'm mildly suspicious of Drumbeats for a post he made after that GTH exercise the other day. From my recollection, his list read more like an aggregated list of the suspicions of the players who took part in the GTH at the time. I admit that's hardly conclusive but looking back, it seems his reads are generally a little all over the place which (to me) looks peculiar because he is clearly a very capable player. And lastly, again, not a strong choice by any means but I don't recall seeing any contribution from Vompatti that really stands out all game. Again, looking back at his ISO, there's not a lot of content there to speak of and I've heard it said (from informed sources) that's apparently a bad look...

@Zebs: May I please enquire about why you think our friend Sig is so suspicious? I'm just concerned that in my limited experience on this site, I can't recall a game in which the three of us played where you two weren't going at each other. I know he's said he's suspicious of you and I think he's wrong. Whilst I respect your opinion, it feels to me that you may have read him wrongly too.

a2thezebra wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:@Zebs: May I please enquire about why you think our friend Sig is so suspicious? I'm just concerned that in my limited experience on this site, I can't recall a game in which the three of us played where you two weren't going at each other. I know he's said he's suspicious of you and I think he's wrong. Whilst I respect your opinion, it feels to me that you may have read him wrongly too.
Yeah you're probably right. The reason I always suspect him is that I was wrong about him for at least two games because I suspected him and he was town, and then in the next game I played with him I didn't suspect him at all and he was mafia. So because of this I just always strongly suspect him just in case.

Yes, I've been there too, my friend. I genuinely think I can tell the difference now though...

G-Man wrote:Let's clear the air a little here. First, if I come across as a bully/jerk/biased nincompoop, that is your interpretation of my words. You can't hear the way I intend these posts to read and I can't hear your posts the way you intend them to be heard. That's arguing on the internet for you. Have I been a little punchy with my write-ups on you? Sure. That's because I've got conviction, not because I'm a bully.

Thank you for responding to my post, my friend. You have (over the course of the last few days) described my responses to your posts as 'high brow', 'gallant' and 'high road' and personally as you are obviously both intelligent and articulate, I'm taking those adjectives as compliments

Secondly, I'm afraid that you are wrong. Whether you come across as a bully/jerk/biased nincompoop has (in this case) little to do with my interpretation of your words. I don't believe that there is anything that you've said in relation to me that you couldn't have said without the biased language that you've used. It would've been more productive for both of us - I'd have far more easily understood your concerns and it would saved you a great deal of trouble and (I'd suggest) a few thousand words. I take your point about misinterpreting words that are merely written text but as far as your posts about me are concerned, you've left no room at all for misinterpretation of your intent.

G-Man wrote:Look at my signature- I won the Spirit Award last year. As the award is described by the presenter, you don't win the Spirit Award by being an asshat. When I'm looking for evidence, I'm silly and lighthearted. When I think I'm on to something, I pivot to punchy. I pivoted early this game because I examined several low-posters on Day 2 and Day 3 for any LRD behavior. Nutella caught my eye Day 2 and the more I re-read your posts, the faster you climbed to the top of the list afterward.

Whilst I still judge you as Town, I wouldn't (and have not) denied even for a second, your passion for this game. I can see quite clearly why you would win such an award. And this is where I think we come to the problem. You are wrong about me. I know you are and yet you have so convinced yourself that you are right, you are blinded to the truth. It happens. I've been there myself more times than I care to remember. As I think I mentioned before, that is a strong determinant in why my approach to these games is far less confrontational than most (and I suppose that's simply my nature).

G-Man wrote:Second, I do not believe that I carry any more credibility than you. That line of yours is a total misreading of what I wrote. Right now I see you trying to discredit my case by way of discrediting me. It's the indirect approach- make people doubt the legitimacy of the witness him or herself and they'll doubt the legitimacy of their testimony. It's all very Johnny Cochran (I watched The People v. OJ Simpson- I highly recommend it!) and a very well-put-together effort. The fatal flaw in your plan is not that I have more credibility. I don't. Credibility comes with being right and winning as a civ. I've barely won much since I joined here, so nobody should just take me at my word that you're bad. They should read my case and reach their own informed decision.

Look, I'm sorry but I don't think you really believe what you've said here at all. You claim to "not believe that I carry any more credibility than you" - immediately after having made reference to an Award that you've won here for 'Spirit' - if that's not a subtle reference to bolster your credibility amongst other more experienced players on this site, I don't know what is.

G-Man wrote:The flaw in your plan is painting me as a bully. People I've played with from forums long ago through today should know pretty well that being a bully is not my MO. I'd even venture to guess that some people that have only known me here would be inclined to think the same thing.

I have no plan my friend other than to work for a Town victory in this game. And I wish you'd stop saying that I am 'painting you as a bully'. There is frankly no 'painting' on my part that is doing that. You just said people that don't know you may get that impression - if that's the case, I think you need to stop kidding yourself and take a long hard look at your style. You can still be effective and 'punchy' without the intimidation and ridicule.

G-Man wrote:Closing arguments- discrediting my play style won't win you the case. You're going to have to address my case. If you think your few posts that do address my case to a degree are sufficient, then by all means stand your ground on them. I'm not being a bully. This is not personal. I just think I'm right and I'm pouncing.

Again, for the umpteenth time, it's not me that is discrediting your playstyle. I've addressed your 'case' time and again but you're not listening. You've closed your mind and it's apparent to me that it hasn't been open since the beginning. I'm more than happy to let others make their judgements of me based on what I've said here.

I fear that I have been an idiot. I'm voting DrWilgy I believe this result could prove more than simply the removal of a Mafia member...

Polo wrote:Have Gaius search me and see if I'm a Cylon. That would be a waste of a search, honestly, for I'm not Cylon - nor mafia Civ, if there is in fact such a thing, and if you want public proof of that just lynch me.

I was willing to take the chance and will dutifully accept and endure any public shaming on post-game or if a lynch reveals that Wilgy is mafia, but I believe he could be be a civ-aligned Caprica Six.

In any case, the results of today's lynch are not as bad as they could have been.

Let me just clarify in my own mind what happened here this afternoon, my friend... You have (since the appearance of the late Admiral Cain) been one of the most outspoken proponents of the theory that all our Cylon friends need to throw away what had been granted to them by law (under the Cylon Amnesty Act). You have held this view because (if I understand you correctly) you hold the view that the act of claiming and gaining amnesty may be used by Cylons to the detriment of the Town (in relevant circumstances where a Cylon is the lead wagon). Have I interpreted your reasoning correctly?

Because that seems disturbingly inconsistent with your actions this afternoon in assisting a Cylon to do precisely what you claim you've been fighting so hard to avoid

I agree that the result was a good one for us but I think we were just extremely lucky there.

The fact that DrWilgy turned out to be a Cylon doesn't really surprise me but I think there is a significant difference between a good Cylon and a bad Cylon and I personally hold the view that the latter are a minority. I too am reassessing my thoughts on him but I wouldn't consider lynching him on his species alone. May I ask S-V-S - what it was specifically about his behaviour that struck you as 'bad'?

Polo wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Polo wrote:Have Gaius search me and see if I'm a Cylon. That would be a waste of a search, honestly, for I'm not Cylon - nor mafia Civ, if there is in fact such a thing, and if you want public proof of that just lynch me.

I was willing to take the chance and will dutifully accept and endure any public shaming on post-game or if a lynch reveals that Wilgy is mafia, but I believe he could be be a civ-aligned Caprica Six.

In any case, the results of today's lynch are not as bad as they could have been.
Let me just clarify in my own mind what happened here this afternoon, my friend... You have (since the appearance of the late Admiral Cain) been one of the most outspoken proponents of the theory that all our Cylon friends need to throw away what had been granted to them by law (under the Cylon Amnesty Act). You have held this view because (if I understand you correctly) you hold the view that the act of claiming and gaining amnesty may be used by Cylons to the detriment of the Town (in relevant circumstances where a Cylon is the lead wagon). Have I interpreted your reasoning correctly?

Because that seems disturbingly inconsistent with your actions this afternoon in assisting a Cylon to do precisely what you claim you've been fighting so hard to avoid I agree that the result was a good one for us but I think we were just extremely lucky there.
I had a very good ferling that Long Con was Cain - other people in this thread thought this too. Wilgy did a complete 360 and acted like an actual civ for a moment; hence why I thought that, if he was a good cylon, then it wouldn't be much of a bad idea to let him live and kill Cain.

We can lynch him whenever you want if you still doubt his alignment, though, and I still want everyone to claim. Let's just see if mafia will NK him or not. If they do, he's civ.

Maths has never been my strong suit but doesn't this (as bolded) mean that he ended up facing the direction as he started?

So you're saying that you acted deliberately against the view you claimed to have held (and pursued with such vigor) since Cain arrived on the scene and declared martial law on a hunch that LC was Cain? I suspect that is one hell of a gamble - can you elaborate what drove you to the conclusion that LC was Cain?

Dex wrote:
Ricochet wrote:I'd interject that the concept of Wilgy claim Caprica Six would arise "for no reason" or "all of a sudden", because there are not many original Cylon numbers we could infer to be non-baddie aligned. Maybe Leoben for being linked with Starbuck after a while? That's about it, though. So, with LoRab flipping Anna, who else to take into consideration but a Cylon such as Caprica Six?
Still playing the same card you did with LoRab. There's only one possible civ-friendly role left, what are the odds that it's Wilgy, best to just kill him.

Again, I want to take issue with this point of view. As I've said on numerous occasions, I do not subscribe to the theory that all of our Cylon friends are anti-Town, in fact I hold the opposite view. I don't fully understand the 'Final 5' scenario but from what I've read, I'm thinking that they become Mafia at some point? You talk about likely Mafia numbers and as I understand from what I've read, we've got about 8 unidentied Cylons? If they are all Mafia and the final 5 are also Mafia, that leaves a Mafia team of approximately 13? In my view that is unbalanced and defies logic. If the Final 5 are Mafia and they've not yet been 'activated' it would seem more logical that the Mafia team is currently consists of two or three members and on that basis, very few of our remaining Cylon friends are Mafia. I'd be very happy for anyone to challenge or correct my assumptions on this matter.

Epignosis wrote:I voted for you, Glorfiendel.

Why didn't you bring me to a pointy yet polite reckoning?

I saw what you did there, Epi...

I'll admit, the thought had crossed my mind but in the end, far be it from my to attempt to comprehend the convoluted machinations of your mind... If you wish to volunteer them however, knock yourself out!

ObscureAllure wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
ObscureAllure wrote:
DrumBeats wrote:
ObscureAllure wrote:
Ricochet wrote:I'd interject that the concept of Wilgy claim Caprica Six would arise "for no reason" or "all of a sudden", because there are not many original Cylon numbers we could infer to be non-baddie aligned. Maybe Leoben for being linked with Starbuck after a while? That's about it, though. So, with LoRab flipping Anna, who else to take into consideration but a Cylon such as Caprica Six?
Or he could be a bad cylon lying? Let's do the math. How many bad cylons (not Capricia Six) are left compared to the one Capricia Six? The odds are much higher that he's not Six. And that's even if we assume Six isn't bad. We don't know that. Literally every cylon who gets caught being a cylon is going to claim being six. They can't all be six. It's impossible. He's NOT six.
I agree with most of this post. Mathematically speaking, it is doubtful that Wigly is a protown cylon. We likely only have one more, if even that, so how many people are instantly assuming he is that one is frightening. The difference between this and the Epig lynch, is Epig was confirmed to be a protown cylon afterwards, Wigly was not. Wigly could be Six, or even Cavil. We don't know, but we know there is a mathematic likelihood of Wigly flipping scum.

The Bold and Underlined part however, makes me wonder how Obscure is this certain Wigly is not Six. I could see OA flipping Six based on this honestly.
I wasn't claiming, was just aggravated because everyone is like "OMG - he might be a gooooooood cylon!" After three days of ranting how bad he is. If all it takes to stop from getting lynched is to tell everyone that are a good cylon I might... No, I still wouldn't. Lol. But seriously though. He can't be six, he's a bad guy, all of the evidence that people posted for three days says that, and I don't think six is bad. I'm not a cylon, so I'm not six.
That reminds me, what font color is Six listed in again in the opening post? I can't recall.
No clue - go look if you want to know?

Ok so let me just point out the obvious here. There is one "possibly Civ" cylon left (Capricia six) and we have two confirmed cylons alive (Sig and Wigly). You realize that in the LEAST, one of them has to be bad, right? And they both hinted that they are six. Does no one else see this? Seriously? I'm in shock that we are even talking about people outside of these two (well, and glor because Silver didn't try to really hide that one if we are to believe her.) we are still out to kill mafia right?!??

I'm sorry my friend but you couldn't be further from the truth. The point is, do you KNOW it is?

So Say We All!

Silverwolf wrote:So say we all!

Vote: Glorfindel

Could everyone please get off SilverWolf's case over this? She obviously has a deeply held belief that I am not a member of the Town. I do not believe that she is being coerced into this vote on me at all. I honestly believe her intentions to be in the best interests of our team but she is certainly wrong. In my judgement, we are at a critical juncture of this game and I think we are in a far worse position than many of us believe. If any of you believe that my actions or remarks this game have not been genuine you're welcome to join SilverWolf. G-Man has done his best to build whatever case he could construct against me. I have addressed his concerns honestly and genuinely to the best of my ability.

Despite what any of you think (even SilverWolf) I am Town in this game down to my bootstraps and I will continue to do what I can to further our cause in this game whilst I am able. Again, vote for me or don't vote for me, that choice is in your hands but know in doing so you are continuing to extinguish the chances of us winning this game.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hey Glorfindel, I have a proposition for you:

People have suspected you for days and days now, and it seems unlikely they'll be changing their minds even if you defend yourself. You've tried that already repeatedly to no avail. How about this: don't defend yourself anymore. Just don't bother. It's a waste of your time. Instead of doing that, focus 100% on baddie hunting, and produce a list of players that you have thoroughly reasoned to be suspects. Even if it ends up being a legacy that you leave behind, it will prove valuable -- more valuable than your efforts at self-defense are likely to be.

You are indeed a wise man, 3J and I will do my best to do as you ask. The problem here is that what you've said cuts to the very heart of this matter. You are making a judgement based on something other than what you know or can see. Sadly, too many of our fellow Town members (and I include our friend SilverWolf here especially) are playing this game from what I see as an incorrect paradigm or frame of reference. I've tried to address this multiple times but clearly no one is listening. I believe that our Team has been sold a lie and too many of us have bought it hook, line and sinker. Until I am proven conclusively wrong (and I've seen no evidence so far that I am) I will continue to fight for our cause. For some though (like SilverWolf) I fear it is too late.

Silverwolf wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
Silverwolf wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:If any mislynch is being set up today, then it's not sig, it's Glorfindel.

Or Glorfindel is in fact bad and the other baddies are trying to turn the tide towards him today so no one will be lynched when he claims Cylon right at the end. After that the baddies can sit back, watch town make just a few more mistakes, and the game is lost for us.

It's one of those two.
OMG can you just stop and think for two seconds or do you always just let loose with whatever the hell comes into our brain without thinking it through?
Of all the posts I've made in this game to provoke such a response from you, why this one? I actually present two possibilities here instead of one.

:P

But really, what is your criticism of my opposition to a Glorfindel lynch today? And by criticism, I mean actual criticism.
I like Epi's plan to put Glorfindel up in first place today but the second place person better be someone we are fairly certain is bad. I can't case Glorfindel again right now because I have a fever and am going to bed. But I will. I will be pushing this hard this day phase. I think it's critical we force him to claim. Just make sure number two is someone we have a consensus is scum and make sure Glorf is number one at the end.

Before I abandon my constant defence as I indicated I would do, there is something that I want to share with you All (and yes, I am referring to my fellow Town members). I know that when SilverWolf returns as she promised, she will present her case for my lynching. I accept that she most fervently believes that I am Mafia and she will present (presumably a case similar to G-Man's) and I would hope will present facts which alone are ambiguous as to my guilt. What she will propose to you is that my motivation and intent has been pro-Mafia and anti-Town. As was the case with G-man's arguments, the conclusion at which you arrive will be based on your interpretation of events in light of how my motivation.

No matter what SilverWolf or G-Man or anyone else says, they are dead WRONG if they interpret my motives in any other way than in the interests of the Town in this game. I am extremely proud of the fact that I can say that throughout my 87 posts in this game there is not a single lie or deliberate untruth (business as usual for Glorfindel

). Any of you that have played with me before I think will understand the point I'm making here. I have not lied before and I am not lying now. I know there will be some who will dismiss what I've said here as a vapid emotional appeal or the like and that's their right to do so. Personally, there are things though that some of us value above winning a game of Mafia. And if you judge me as an awful Mafia player for that, then it's something I'll happily own up to.

I'd also like to make the comparison between this game and life. It's difficult and it's frustrating. There are times you just want to stop and get off and there's times when it can be quite exciting and riveting. But like life, I get the feeling that all of this will only be really understood once it's over.

So Say We All!
3J asked me for a list of my suspects and I'm happy to try but I might need to do it by installment over this Day phase so for those of you who may be interested, I hope you can bear with me

Firstly, I'd like to list the people that I consider my Town leans:
SilverWolf
JaggedJimmyJay
Sig
Epignosis
S-V-S
a2thezebra
Marmot
Ricochet
Matt
G-Man
SokothQultuq

Silverwolf wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Before I abandon my constant defence as I indicated I would do, there is something that I want to share with you All (and yes, I am referring to my fellow Town members). I know that when SilverWolf returns as she promised, she will present her case for my lynching. I accept that she most fervently believes that I am Mafia and she will present (presumably a case similar to G-Man's) and I would hope will present facts which alone are ambiguous as to my guilt. What she will propose to you is that my motivation and intent has been pro-Mafia and anti-Town. As was the case with G-man's arguments, the conclusion at which you arrive will be based on your interpretation of events in light of how my motivation.

No matter what SilverWolf or G-Man or anyone else says, they are dead WRONG if they interpret my motives in any other way than in the interests of the Town in this game. I am extremely proud of the fact that I can say that throughout my 87 posts in this game there is not a single lie or deliberate untruth (business as usual for Glorfindel ). Any of you that have played with me before I think will understand the point I'm making here. I have not lied before and I am not lying now. I know there will be some who will dismiss what I've said here as a vapid emotional appeal or the like and that's their right to do so. Personally, there are things though that some of us value above winning a game of Mafia. And if you judge me as an awful Mafia player for that, then it's something I'll happily own up to. I'd also like to make the comparison between this game and life. It's difficult and it's frustrating. There are times you just want to stop and get off and there's times when it can be quite exciting and riveting. But like life, I get the feeling that all of this will only be really understood once it's over.
First paragraph pre-emptively addresses a case I may be making on him. Why even bother when it's not done yet? What is he worried about?

The second paragraph says nothing of value except asking us to believe he's not lying. What good does this do? Mafia can easily go through a game without lying. They can just withhold information.

I don't care how genuine he seems. His posts say nothing of substance. Try looking at all the words in his posts and see if you see him actually saying anything helpful this game.

Also, JJJ's coaching of Glorfindel, takes him straight off my civ list. He also got involved in the Wilgy situation to encourage Wilgy. He's also faded quite a bit since his ISO's and I am wondering if he's actually bad this game.

You just don't get it do you? You aren't just wrong about me here SilverWolf, the entire premise about who is good and who is bad in this game (I believe) is completely at odds with realty and THAT'S what I'm fighting for here because as far as I can see, it is the alternative approach that is handing this game to the Mafia on a platter! And the remarks you just made about 3J are typical of what I'm talking about here.

I doubt I'll be able to change your mind but I can only hope that the rest of the Town wake up to themselves before it's too late. For what it's worth, the majority of my posts are probably strenuous defenses against biased accusations. Whether you or anyone else considers that 'helpful' is up to them. I indicated to try to provide some of my thoughts on more players this Day phase and that's what I intend to do. If you're not interested, that's fine.

Silverwolf wrote:The second paragraph says nothing of value except asking us to believe he's not lying. What good does this do? Mafia can easily go through a game without lying. They can just withhold information.

One last thing, if you were actually aware of what I've written in my posts (that apparently say nothing) you couldn't even make this statement. No Mafia could say everything that I've said and not lie. I'd respectfully suggest that you are more careful with your facts in future. Thank you.

Silverwolf wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
ObscureAllure wrote:He's a cylon so if he claims our number two (should be Wigly) dies and if he doesn't claim then Glor dies. Either way we have a mafia.
You're wrong on both counts. Neither Wilgy nor Glorfindel will be a successful lynch regardless of whether or not either or both of them claim.

We will get nothing if we lynch either of them. Nothing. Except the game might be over faster.
You are wrong. Wilgy and Glorf are cylons. What are the odds they are both good? Especially if I'm to believe Wilgy is good, then Glorf is almost certainly not. So yes, Glorf needs to claim or die. He needs to tell me straight up why he isn't claiming if he chooses not to. Glorf is hiding among the nonclaimers and we need to get him out.

This is really very simple and if you still don't get it, then I'm not wasting time explaining it again to you. I'm hoping others will see it and vote accordingly.

SilverWolf - I have been honest, open and entirely transparent with you all about my alignment all game. I have indicated both directly and indirectly where my loyalties lie. If that doesn't satisfy you, then that is your problem, not mine.

a2thezebra wrote:
ObscureAllure wrote:He's a cylon so if he claims our number two (should be Wigly) dies and if he doesn't claim then Glor dies. Either way we have a mafia.
You're wrong on both counts. Neither Wilgy nor Glorfindel will be a successful lynch regardless of whether or not either or both of them claim.

We will get nothing if we lynch either of them. Nothing. Except the game might be over faster.

My dearest Zebs

Amongst all the players here, no one makes me laugh like you do. No one makes me want to stand up and cheer like you do. It's comforting for me to know that someone in this game ACTUALLY gets what is going on here.

You were wrong though with what you said before about Sig. I couldn't be more convinced that he is Town. I spoke to you about that. You hold an opposite view. I respect that. You're wrong, but I can still respect your opinion.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:
Silverwolf wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
ObscureAllure wrote:He's a cylon so if he claims our number two (should be Wigly) dies and if he doesn't claim then Glor dies. Either way we have a mafia.
You're wrong on both counts. Neither Wilgy nor Glorfindel will be a successful lynch regardless of whether or not either or both of them claim.

We will get nothing if we lynch either of them. Nothing. Except the game might be over faster.
You are wrong. Wilgy and Glorf are cylons. What are the odds they are both good? Especially if I'm to believe Wilgy is good, then Glorf is almost certainly not. So yes, Glorf needs to claim or die. He needs to tell me straight up why he isn't claiming if he chooses not to. Glorf is hiding among the nonclaimers and we need to get him out.

This is really very simple and if you still don't get it, then I'm not wasting time explaining it again to you. I'm hoping others will see it and vote accordingly.
SilverWolf - I have been honest, open and entirely transparent with you all about my alignment all game. I have indicated both directly and indirectly where my loyalties lie. If that doesn't satisfy you, then that is your problem, not mine.
You're defending yourself again. Losing points.

No, my friend I am not defending. There is a subtle difference between defending and answering a legitimate question (or blatant threat if one could be forgiven for interpreting it that way). Please don't worry I am at work at the moment and will post what you asked at lunch time (hopefully). I've looked at the DrWilgy case and have a new perspective on that (I'm inclined to move him over to a mild Town-lean) and I will give you my Mafia suspects then. Thank you in advance for your patience.

Epignosis wrote:
Polo wrote:Glorfindel's posts seem to be full of words but devoid of content.
I'd use a stronger verb than "seem."

Pot calling the kettle black if ever there was...

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'll also be more willing to join the heap against Glorfindel if he doesn't give me my suspects. *looks at watch*

Fear not my friend.
I have to fit this into my lunch break but I'll do the best I can for now.

Firstly let me state unequivocally that I believe that the Mafia team this game do have BTSC. If that is true, then they know the truth. Knowing that has allowed them to perpetuate the lie that Cylons = Mafia (or at least anti-Town). I believe this lie has been accepted as truth by a combination of a players who are simply unenlightened to this point or are simply gullible (despite how experienced/smart they are). I do not accept the premise that all of our Cylon friends are Mafia or anti-Town no matter how many of you rage that they are. Anyone who still believes that is being played by an exceptionally devious Mafia team. As evidence of this, one only needs to look to the Cylon Amnesty Act. This Act was passed by our President who I believe did so in order to give them a fighting chance against a Mafia team that she knew would capitalise on the 'anti-Cylon' bigotry that has been such a big feature of this game. Led and/or vigorously supported by the Mafia team, they took full advantage Admiral Cain's martial law, they stripped away this protection and continue to coerce those players who (for whatever reason chose not to) to do so. Given the efficiency with which they achieved this, I dispute the assertion that we're not in a bad place. I believe the situation is dire and potentially about to get a lot worse. I do not believe LoRab was Mafia and I harbour the gravest doubts that Nutella was either.

I strongly suspected there was something up with IAWY from my initial interaction with him and I now know that he was indeed a Cylon. Unlike many of you (as I said earlier) I believe that only a small minority of the Cylons are Mafia and consequently he is more than likely not to be 'bad' Mafia. If you are willing to accept this possibility, it is worth looking at what happened at the end of the last Day phase and the three players who voted for him after his claim. Of these, I never considered Sig to be Mafia this entire game and am still not sold on the theory that he is (although 3J's accusation that he is human Mafia is intriguing).

I had not paid a lot of attention to Black Rock until this point of the game but her actions at the end of the last Day phase has given me pause to look at her more closely. ISOing her, she has less posts than even I. There are frequent references to LC (for understandable reasons) but not as I can see much else. Judged by the same measure that has been applied to me in terms of 'non baddie hunting' I think she comes off worse which in turn, leads me to wonder why I have been such a subject of attention over the course of the last few days. She also said this on Day 2:

Black Rock wrote:My new theory (in my head) is that the Cylon/Human relationship is not so black and white and there will be murderers from both sides. Which means the Mafia team is made up of both. I just don't know which roles.

And then appeared to jump enthusiastically on Admiral Caine's efforts to rid the game of our Cylon friends. I may be corrected on this, but I recall that she was one of the architects of the lynching of both Nutella and LoRab. This all looks rather suspicious to me.

Polo seems to be all over the place to me and the groundswell of support for my lynching has I think been a Godsend for him. It seems that for the first time this past Day phase he's started to take some heat and I notice he's just jumped back on me. I don't trust him one little bit.

Obscure Allure has me very confused. If I'm not misunderstanding him, he's all for Cylon genocide and for everyone to claim - EXCEPT him. He seems (in my opinion) to be alluding to some reason why he alone is exempt and like everyone understands why. I may be silly but I don't understand why...

Epignosis wrote:I bring this up because zebra adamantly defended Glorfindel, and there's no way Glorfindel has enough experience with a2thezebra to have that puzzle solved Day 1.

Says you!

G-Man wrote:
Glorfindel wrote: I had not paid a lot of attention to Black Rock until this point of the game but her actions at the end of the last Day phase has given me pause to look at her more closely. ISOing her, she has less posts than even I.
Ahem. Fewer.

Thank you, G-Man

. *Fewer

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:I had not paid a lot of attention to Black Rock until this point of the game but her actions at the end of the last Day phase has given me pause to look at her more closely. ISOing her, she has less posts than even I. There are frequent references to LC (for understandable reasons) but not as I can see much else. Judged by the same measure that has been applied to me in terms of 'non baddie hunting' I think she comes off worse which in turn, leads me to wonder why I have been such a subject of attention over the course of the last few days.
That's a why-me defense. A number of people not dedicated much effort to baddie hunting beyond just you. Why should Black Rock's lower post count be a concern over the likes of somelike like Vompatti, for example? Also, what about her references to LC interests you? I don't understand why you mentioned that.
No, that is a legitimate comparison. I agree, a number of people haven't made an effort at 'baddie hunting' beyond just me and where is the 'March of the witch hunters' on them? Something you might like to consider right there. I mentioned Vompatti before and my suspicion was summarily dismissed because 'he always plays that way'. Besides, he clearly has an exceptionally quick wit and this game would likely be a crashing bore without him. I may have misunderstood but I was taken to understand that LC and Black Rock were married. Did I get that wrong? I figured under the circumstances, that would legitimately explain the the constant references to him in her posts. My point was that if you remove those references which I don't think were substantial (in terms of content) what remained appear quite thin.

Note for other people: If Glorfindel is bad, I don't think Black Rock is bad with him.
A dangerous, unfounded assumption and one not worthy of someone of your intellect 3J.

Glorfindel wrote:Polo seems to be all over the place to me and the groundswell of support for my lynching has I think been a Godsend for him. It seems that for the first time this past Day phase he's started to take some heat and I notice he's just jumped back on me. I don't trust him one little bit.
Please illustrate the content in Polo's post history that you feel is "all over the place". I need to see the specific reasoning you're employing to have a better chance at understanding your mindset.
[color=#BF00BFI don't keep spreadsheets of everyone's interactions in these games but the most recent example of his behaviour at the end of the last Day phase with DrWilgy (especially given his much prolific raging against the Cylon Amnesty Act provisions) looked kinda inconsistent and dodgy to me. Did it not appear strange to you?[/color]
Glorfindel wrote:Obscure Allure has me very confused. If I'm not misunderstanding him, he's all for Cylon genocide and for everyone to claim - EXCEPT him. He seems (in my opinion) to be alluding to some reason why he alone is exempt and like everyone understands why. I may be silly but I don't understand why...
Is this even true? I don't believe OA has advocated cylon genocide in this game. You're right that she hasn't claimed -- she made a pretty big deal about it being a unique problem for her. That can only be believed or not, and I think her effort has been town-inclined at least.

Is it true? It was my recollection. Reading back, she appears to have an obsession with Caprica Six or something being the only other good Cylon besides Epi. If you see nothing suspicious or conflicting in her approach, then that's fine. That's your judgement. You asked me to nominate some players that I thought were potential Mafia and I've done as you asked. What I've given you is my opinion. Because you hold an alternative opinion doesn't necessarily make me wrong.

I have a ton of stuff to write up for work tomorrow morning and I have an early breakfast meeting from 7.00 am so please don't expect me under these circumstances to respond with substantial amounts of post before lunch time tomorrow. I'll do my best of course - I'm just putting it out there for your information now.

Now it's my turn to ask you some questions 3J. Don't worry, they're not hard, they just require a considered response...

1. How convinced are you that Epi is on our side and actually working in the interests of the Town (a percentage would even be nice

)?
And
2. Assuming you give him a reasonably high percentage for question 1, in percentage terms, how much do you trust his judgement in these games?

Thanks

Silverwolf wrote:I think the fact that Glorfindel is pushing the angle that cylons aren't bad now is very interesting. Hey Glorf? How come you haven't answered my questions about why you didn't claim?

SilverWolf, I've been proposing that argument for days, I think it speaks volumes that you are only seeing it now. And I HAVE answered your questions, the problem is you're sadly too stubborn to understand the answer. I understand why you are so convinced that you're right but the problem here is that you are unwilling to even consider the fact that the premise under which you are working is WRONG. I don't blame you for that - you're simply acting in accord with what you've been conditioned to believe and in the process are about to push our team down a slippery slope to defeat.

So Say We All!

Sorry

fixed

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:I had not paid a lot of attention to Black Rock until this point of the game but her actions at the end of the last Day phase has given me pause to look at her more closely. ISOing her, she has less posts than even I. There are frequent references to LC (for understandable reasons) but not as I can see much else. Judged by the same measure that has been applied to me in terms of 'non baddie hunting' I think she comes off worse which in turn, leads me to wonder why I have been such a subject of attention over the course of the last few days.
That's a why-me defense. A number of people not dedicated much effort to baddie hunting beyond just you. Why should Black Rock's lower post count be a concern over the likes of somelike like Vompatti, for example? Also, what about her references to LC interests you? I don't understand why you mentioned that.
No, that is a legitimate comparison. I agree, a number of people haven't made an effort at 'baddie hunting' beyond just me and where is the 'March of the witch hunters' on them? Something you might like to consider right there. I mentioned Vompatti before and my suspicion was summarily dismissed because 'he always plays that way'. Besides, he clearly has an exceptionally quick wit and this game would likely be a crashing bore without him. I may have misunderstood but I was taken to understand that LC and Black Rock were married. Did I get that wrong? I figured under the circumstances, that would legitimately explain the the constant references to him in her posts. My point was that if you remove those references which I don't think were substantial (in terms of content) what remained appear quite thin.

Note for other people: If Glorfindel is bad, I don't think Black Rock is bad with him.
A dangerous, unfounded assumption and one not worthy of someone of your intellect 3J.

Glorfindel wrote:Polo seems to be all over the place to me and the groundswell of support for my lynching has I think been a Godsend for him. It seems that for the first time this past Day phase he's started to take some heat and I notice he's just jumped back on me. I don't trust him one little bit.
Please illustrate the content in Polo's post history that you feel is "all over the place". I need to see the specific reasoning you're employing to have a better chance at understanding your mindset.
I don't keep spreadsheets of everyone's interactions in these games but the most recent example of his behaviour at the end of the last Day phase with DrWilgy (especially given his much prolific raging against the Cylon Amnesty Act provisions) looked kinda inconsistent and dodgy to me. Did it not appear strange to you?
Glorfindel wrote:Obscure Allure has me very confused. If I'm not misunderstanding him, he's all for Cylon genocide and for everyone to claim - EXCEPT him. He seems (in my opinion) to be alluding to some reason why he alone is exempt and like everyone understands why. I may be silly but I don't understand why...
Is this even true? I don't believe OA has advocated cylon genocide in this game. You're right that she hasn't claimed -- she made a pretty big deal about it being a unique problem for her. That can only be believed or not, and I think her effort has been town-inclined at least.

Is it true? It was my recollection. Reading back, she appears to have an obsession with Caprica Six or something being the only other good Cylon besides Epi. If you see nothing suspicious or conflicting in her approach, then that's fine. That's your judgement. You asked me to nominate some players that I thought were potential Mafia and I've done as you asked. What I've given you is my opinion. Because you hold an alternative opinion doesn't necessarily make me wrong.

I have a ton of stuff to write up for work tomorrow morning and I have an early breakfast meeting from 7.00 am so please don't expect me under these circumstances to respond with substantial amounts of post before lunch time tomorrow. I'll do my best of course - I'm just putting it out there for your information now.

Now it's my turn to ask you some questions 3J. Don't worry, they're not hard, they just require a considered response...

1. How convinced are you that Epi is on our side and actually working in the interests of the Town (a percentage would even be nice

)?
And
2. Assuming you give him a reasonably high percentage for question 1, in percentage terms, how much do you trust his judgement in these games?

Thanks

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