RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

[Golden]

'Quin' has been mentioned 275 times so far in this game. 'Quin' was mentioned 897 times in Turf Wars.

Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin Quin.

[Epignosis]

I don't get any of what you just said. Are you mad at me?

Just read what I said that you quoted. Given it already answered the questions you asked before you asked them.

Why would I be mad at you?

How about you quote what you want me to read and tell me what you want me to know.

"Read your own quote."

What quote?

I'm not a champion. I'm a chicken shit player. Treat me like one.

[Epignosis]

I don't get any of what you just said. Are you mad at me?

Just read what I said that you quoted. Given it already answered the questions you asked before you asked them.

Why would I be mad at you?

Because you sound annoyed by basic questions.

[Quin]

I feel like if Luffy were playing this game he'd have some sort of breakdown.

Finally, the guy with 55 posts nobody seems to care about. Last game I played with him people talked about him so much I got sick of it, so maybe everyone else is sick too? But we gotta face Quin too eventually.

[Golden]

Oh, btw... quin, the guy I got lynched yesterday, has this to say about what I did yesterday...

Golden: He's not entirely focused on why Quin 1.0 is bad, he's also focused on why 3J is good (and basically always has been).

So, even though I already admitted I was myopically focussed [sic sic], I still managed to focus on one more person than either you or inh did yesterday.

[Golden]

I don't get any of what you just said. Are you mad at me?

Just read what I said that you quoted. Given it already answered the questions you asked before you asked them.

Why would I be mad at you?

Because you sound annoyed by basic questions.

Maybe you should stop focussing on 'how I sound'?

[Golden]

5) I don't have an echo chamber any more than you have an echo chamber. You and epi were running around affirming each other and myopically focussed on one person yesterday, and you absolutely refused to listen to anything from anyone that might even cast the slightest doubt on it. Which I did as well. The only difference between you and me is that the guy I voted for got lynched.

"Myopically focussed [sic] on one person."

Does that describe me or you?

"Absolutely refused to listen to anything from anyone that might even cast the slightest doubt on it."

Does that describe INH or you?

Golden, I'm not impressed. Your championship shit doesn't work here. Come back home. Deal wid dis mess.

OK, chicken shit player. I've underlined the bit for you that you quoted but didn't read.

[Golden]

Far from being mad at you epi, I am very much enjoying playing this game with you.

But I do still think you are wrong about Jay.

[Epignosis]

I don't get any of what you just said. Are you mad at me?

Just read what I said that you quoted. Given it already answered the questions you asked before you asked them.

Why would I be mad at you?

Because you sound annoyed by basic questions.

Maybe you should stop focussing on 'how I sound'?

Why should I stop doing that?

[Epignosis]

5) I don't have an echo chamber any more than you have an echo chamber. You and epi were running around affirming each other and myopically focussed on one person yesterday, and you absolutely refused to listen to anything from anyone that might even cast the slightest doubt on it. Which I did as well. The only difference between you and me is that the guy I voted for got lynched.

"Myopically focussed [sic] on one person."

Does that describe me or you?

"Absolutely refused to listen to anything from anyone that might even cast the slightest doubt on it."

Does that describe INH or you?

Golden, I'm not impressed. Your championship shit doesn't work here. Come back home. Deal wid dis mess.

OK, chicken shit player. I've underlined the bit for you that you quoted but didn't read.

Ah. I didn't understand you there. But that raises my point. I will use capital letters this time for fun and jolly emphasis:

WHY THE FUCK DID YOU SAY WHAT YOU SAID WHEN IT APPLIED TO YOURSELF? WHAT WAS THE POINT? ARE YOU THAT MUCH CLOSER TO FINDING MAFIA?

Glad you're enjoying your time with me.

[Epignosis]

Far from being mad at you epi, I am very much enjoying playing this game with you.

But I do still think you are wrong about Jay.

I think I'm right on the money. There's no point in telling me I'm wrong if you won't say why.

[Golden]

I don't get any of what you just said. Are you mad at me?

Just read what I said that you quoted. Given it already answered the questions you asked before you asked them.

Why would I be mad at you?

Because you sound annoyed by basic questions.

Maybe you should stop focussing on 'how I sound'?

Why should I stop doing that?

I mean, do what you want, but it just drew you to at least one false conclusion, so...

linki @epi - the point is, inh spent an entire day attacking me for doing what he did himself, then after the lynch said how disappointed he was in me because of how myopic I was, even though he was just as myopic, and even though he thought the case on Quin was good and wanted to lynch him the next day.

His entire approach to me is far more about wanting to make me look bad than it ever is about, for instance, trying to actually solve the game.

[Golden]

I think I'm right on the money. There's no point in telling me I'm wrong if you won't say why.

I could count on one hand the number of times I've seen a teammate actively try to take the vocal lead in shifting the lynch away from their teammate onto someone else on day 1 when there is a high chance of failure (and indeed failure occurred).

It seems very unlikely to me in the event that they didn't know scotty would start by flipping town, because the risk to Jay would be far too great.
It makes even less sense to me in the event that they did know scotty would flip town, because in my experience noone makes an effort to save their seemer teammate.

[Golden]

btw, I'm enjoying playing this game with inh as well, although I'm not sure he would say the same back.

But, yknow, I'm not in this game to make everyone feel comfortable.

[Epignosis]

I think I'm right on the money. There's no point in telling me I'm wrong if you won't say why.

I could count on one hand the number of times I've seen a teammate actively try to take the vocal lead in shifting the lynch away from their teammate onto someone else on day 1 when there is a high chance of failure (and indeed failure occurred).

It seems very unlikely to me in the event that they didn't know scotty would start by flipping town, because the risk to Jay would be far too great.
It makes even less sense to me in the event that they did know scotty would flip town, because in my experience noone makes an effort to save their seemer teammate.

That's why it's a great tactic. I use it often.

[Golden]

That's why it's a great tactic. I use it often.

Sure. But you're unique in many ways. Jay is like me. He plays a classic scum game, encouraging teammate to take as little risk as possible, making himself appear like he is measuring all options carefully. Can't tell you of one time I've seen Jay set out to try to save someone that vocally when he's bad. Can't tell you one time I've done it either.

[Golden]

And I'd never ever rule you out for that reason the way I would Jay.

I'm even hesitant to rule you out for being on the Scotty lynch as early as you were. But I remind myself that I'm ruling you out for the content you put around it, and the way you did it, and not the fact you did it.

[Quin]

Golden, do you have a rainbow list right now? Should I ask Epignosis?

[Epignosis]

And I'd never ever rule you out for that reason the way I would Jay.

I'm even hesitant to rule you out for being on the Scotty lynch as early as you were. But I remind myself that I'm ruling you out for the content you put around it, and the way you did it, and not the fact you did it.

That's sweet of you.

[Golden]

Golden, do you have a rainbow list right now? Should I ask Epignosis?

Yep. My rainbow list.

Strong town

Sloonei
Jay
Quin 2.0
Epignosis
leetic

Mild town

ricochet
Metalmarsh

Neutral

Rey
Wilgy 2.0

Lean Bad

INH

[Golden]

And I'd never ever rule you out for that reason the way I would Jay.

I'm even hesitant to rule you out for being on the Scotty lynch as early as you were. But I remind myself that I'm ruling you out for the content you put around it, and the way you did it, and not the fact you did it.

That's sweet of you.

No probs, darling.

[Quin]

Strong town
Golden

Mild town
Sloonei
Epignosis

Neutral
leetic
reywaS
DrWilgy

Mild bad
insertnamehere
metalmarsh89
ricochet
JaggedJimmyJay

[Golden]

At this point I'll also say that if inh is bad, then I think a big part of his massive reaction to me is because the original PoE does have all baddies. So, just in case I should ever be NKed (which seems kind of unlikely right now), remember this and think about why it is so important for inh to discredit me and my PoE if he is bad.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Invest in one of two people or you are suspicious.

The main thing I try to set up when I'm bad is the false dilemma. Make people think they have only two options or their vote is a waste. Forget pushing what you believe in.

It's exactly like US elections, really.

I have cast suspicion upon people who camp on solo wagons in every game we've ever played together. It's the thing that made you look so shitty during the Turf Wars CFD. "Pushing what you believe in" is important over the course of a day phase, but stubbornly sitting on a hopeless wagon at the end is not productive. It's often suspicious.

How do you operate? Do tell.

I kill people who either threaten me or a team mate of mine, players who are the least likely to be lynched or the most difficult to lynch, or players whose deaths I feel are to reflect poorly on someone else. You can check every Transistor kill my team committed and I could explain how it fits that description. What I don't do is kill people who are on the mislynch block who offer no strategic benefit if killed (Boomslang and DrWilgy both fit this description) -- I think it's a stupid play and I have never been on a scum team that behaves that way (primarily because my kill preferences tend to influence the teams' eventual choices).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think we should lynch Wilgy or reywaS next. I know they're both total lurkers and many people are going to balk at the notion, but I don't care. I think they're the best choices.

[Quin]

I think we should react upon the utter shit heap that occurred over the past few phases rather than put our votes on people who were not involved.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Explain why this strategy isn't viable. Tell me the fatal flaw. Try.

what happens when you townclear someone for a dumb reason?

what happens if you townclear a scummeister?

Anyone who is utlizing process of elimination is responsible for critically assessing it often to determine if and when anyone should be added to it. That's why I have maintained a dialogue throughout the game even with players I trust -- to continue to develop every read.

If a scummeister still gets through and town loses, well guess what the inherent flaw is then: it's possible for a human playing Mafia to be wrong.

Show me a strategy that isn't susceptible to that failure.

[Epignosis]

Golden, do you have a rainbow list right now? Should I ask Epignosis?

Yep. My rainbow list.

Strong town

Sloonei
Jay
Quin 2.0
Epignosis
leetic

Mild town

ricochet
Metalmarsh

Neutral

Rey
Wilgy 2.0

Lean Bad

INH

INH (*gasps*) is making perfect sense to me. And you want to crucify him next because he's on your list.

Fuck that. New sheriff in town. Not Golden.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think we should react upon the utter shit heap that occurred over the past few phases rather than put our votes on people who were not involved.

If there's a scum among them, how do we win?

[Golden]

"Pushing what you believe in" is important over the course of a day phase, but stubbornly sitting on a hopeless wagon at the end is not productive. It's often suspicious.

Epi hosted a game, biblical mafia, in which voting on wagons that weren't going to result in a lynch was essentially THE most reliable scum tell, and G-Man's rainbow analysis highlighted it.

Also, I also agree Jay wouldn't have agreed to those kill choices.

[Golden]

Fuck that. New sheriff in town. Not Golden.

I wasn't your sheriff last time either.

You are buying into inh's narrative that I am the sheriff. I'm not the sheriff. I didn't lynch Quin, five people did.

Vote for who you want to, and I'll vote for who I want to. It will probably be inh.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Your championship shit doesn't work here.

How the hell would you know?

[Golden]

Your championship shit doesn't work here.

How the hell would you know?

What he means is, 'it doesn't work with him'.

Which it doesn't. But I called that shot a long time ago.

[Quin]

I think we should react upon the utter shit heap that occurred over the past few phases rather than put our votes on people who were not involved.

If there's a scum among them, how do we win?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I looked back at The Office Mafia where I got into a big stink with INH, and I admit that many similar arguments are recurring in this game -- including in his dialogue with Golden. This is why I'd hesitate to lynch him, and given my appreciation for Quin 2.0's recent involvement that leaves me with the two inactive players.

Process of elimination.

*mind blown*

[Golden]

I'll knock epi down a peg to neutral for doing exactly what inh did.

The narrative is 'golden was wrong last time, so he shouldn't be listened to this time'.

It's a bullshit narrative, and epi and inh both know that full well.

[Golden]

I looked back at The Office Mafia where I got into a big stink with INH, and I admit that many similar arguments are recurring in this game

Tell me more.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think I'm right on the money. There's no point in telling me I'm wrong if you won't say why.

I could count on one hand the number of times I've seen a teammate actively try to take the vocal lead in shifting the lynch away from their teammate onto someone else on day 1 when there is a high chance of failure (and indeed failure occurred).

It seems very unlikely to me in the event that they didn't know scotty would start by flipping town, because the risk to Jay would be far too great.
It makes even less sense to me in the event that they did know scotty would flip town, because in my experience noone makes an effort to save their seemer teammate.

That's why it's a great tactic. I use it often.

You're you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I looked back at The Office Mafia where I got into a big stink with INH, and I admit that many similar arguments are recurring in this game

Tell me more.

INH has a way of looking like he is out to discredit people with whom he has strategic disagreement. At the start of The Office Mafia, he treated Matt in a way similar to what we've seen here, and I watched the game as a non-player thinking he was Scum #1 for it. I replaced in soon after and took him to task, only to eventually change my mind. He was town in that game. I'll share some snippets:

Each word's a link.

[Epignosis]

Invest in one of two people or you are suspicious.

The main thing I try to set up when I'm bad is the false dilemma. Make people think they have only two options or their vote is a waste. Forget pushing what you believe in.

It's exactly like US elections, really.

I have cast suspicion upon people who camp on solo wagons in every game we've ever played together. It's the thing that made you look so shitty during the Turf Wars CFD. "Pushing what you believe in" is important over the course of a day phase, but stubbornly sitting on a hopeless wagon at the end is not productive. It's often suspicious.

I've never understood this about Turf Wars:

How did I look "so shitty" then? I wasn't around when it happened. I was in a car. Being a designated driver of all things (at five in the afternoon, of all times).

How do you operate? Do tell.

I kill people who either threaten me or a team mate of mine, players who are the least likely to be lynched or the most difficult to lynch, or players whose deaths I feel are to reflect poorly on someone else. You can check every Transistor kill my team committed and I could explain how it fits that description. What I don't do is kill people who are on the mislynch block who offer no strategic benefit if killed (Boomslang and DrWilgy both fit this description) -- I think it's a stupid play and I have never been on a scum team that behaves that way (primarily because my kill preferences tend to influence the teams' eventual choices).

Nobody threatened you in Transistor. The civilians were a mess. MP got bussed and so did Eloh. You killed Process elements. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think we should react upon the utter shit heap that occurred over the past few phases rather than put our votes on people who were not involved.

If there's a scum among them, how do we win?

That was a serious question. If there's an answer I'm missing, please lemme have it.

[Epignosis]

Your championship shit doesn't work here.

How the hell would you know?

What he means is, 'it doesn't work with him'.

Which it doesn't. But I called that shot a long time ago.

What I mean is, "Does it work on The Syndicate?"

[Golden]

OK. A lot of what I find suspicious in inh is completely replicated there, even to the extent that he is telling Matt that his methods are 'downright harmful to the town'.

*sigh* - I mean, it's disappointing. INH was disappointed in me, now I'm disappointed in him. I don't understand why he is spending so much effort on attacking my game style (something that is almost always completely irrelevant to alignment from any player), but perhaps this is something he legitimately finds suspicious.

I think I need to read INH back. I see why you are at rey and wilgy, Jay.

[Epignosis]

I'll knock epi down a peg to neutral for doing exactly what inh did.

The narrative is 'golden was wrong last time, so he shouldn't be listened to this time'.

It's a bullshit narrative, and epi and inh both know that full well.

Your ways are best.

I'm happy to be a neutral peg or whatever it is I am.



I'm with INH in this: Neither of us suspect you. We just think your methods are shit.

[Quin]

I think we should react upon the utter shit heap that occurred over the past few phases rather than put our votes on people who were not involved.

If there's a scum among them, how do we win?

That was a serious question. If there's an answer I'm missing, please lemme have it.

I didn't say 'never lynch them'. But we've just had 2 phases of the most meaningful and meaty contributions I've ever seen and you want to ignore all of that and focus the few who weren't involved.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I've never understood this about Turf Wars:

How did I look "so shitty" then? I wasn't around when it happened. I was in a car. Being a designated driver of all things (at five in the afternoon, of all times).

I don't remember the exact details. What I remember is that you had an opportunity to make an impactful vote as the heat was rising against Fuzz, and instead you camped on some pointless wagon that would have no consequence in the final result.

Nobody threatened you in Transistor. The civilians were a mess. MP got bussed and so did Eloh. You killed Process elements. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

We killed sig because he had gotten a fake claim out of MP in BTSC that we didn't want to deal with.
We killed Matt because he had crucified Elohcin and looked sterling.
We killed DrWilgy because he looked great alongside Matt and would have been a tough lynch.
We killed Young Lady because we didn't know WTF to do with the elements and guessed.
We killed Scotty because he was all over MP and I wanted to take the reigns of the MP case myself for the credit.
We killed Snapshot because of its power.
We tried to kill nijuukyugou because she looked like a near-impossible lynch.
We killed thellama73 because it was increasingly clear he had information on me.
We killed Badcell to get a voting edge over The Process.
We killed Luna to win.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What I mean is, "Does it work on The Syndicate?"

In a heist you bet your ass it does. I used the exact same method in Triskaidekaphobia and had killer reads, but nobody noticed while they were trying to lop my head off.

[Golden]

Your championship shit doesn't work here.

How the hell would you know?

What he means is, 'it doesn't work with him'.

Which it doesn't. But I called that shot a long time ago.

What I mean is, "Does it work on The Syndicate?"

It works the same everywhere. It's good because it works even when players are bussing and deliberately trying to combat it. It relies on a strong town working on it together.

The point of it is to completely switch the game from looking for scum to looking for town. Not exclusively, but much more effort than is put on it here. By spending your time articulating why people are town and critiquing others arguments for why people are town, you create a pool of people who are very probably town. A baddie might sneak in here and there, but what you are left with catches the bulk of the baddies. If one does sneak through, then you are only looking for one and it's probable you are still able to figure out which people you cleared for the wrong reasons and why.

Essentially, it turns out people are an awful lot better at spotting the things that probably aren't bad, than they are at spotting things that probably are.

[Golden]

We just think your methods are shit.

And I just think you are spending far too much time comparing methods. I don't care if your method is longer.

[Golden]

What I mean is, "Does it work on The Syndicate?"

In a heist you bet your ass it does. I used the exact same method in Triskaidekaphobia and had killer reads, but nobody noticed while they were trying to lop my head off.

Yeah, it only translates to these kind of heist games where most people are vanilla.