Currents Mafia [END]

[Epignosis]

What reason does a civ have to make the post below?

I am continually amazed that the #1 FEB on the site leads more lynches than anybody else.

I also think its more likely that mafia Epi would notice this trend than civ Epi.

Right. My alignment determines whether or not I can go into the Hall of Fame, see that I've won more times than anyone else as mafia, and then revel in the irony that I lead more lynches than anybody else.

Get out of the city.

But I just moved back to the city.


Likeliness is what determines this. It's not impossible for that post to be civ. I just don't think it's likely.

Likelihood has nothing to do with it. My brain doesn't change because I get one alignment or the other.

[DrWilgy]

What reason does a civ have to make the post below?

I am continually amazed that the #1 FEB on the site leads more lynches than anybody else.

I also think its more likely that mafia Epi would notice this trend than civ Epi.

Right. My alignment determines whether or not I can go into the Hall of Fame, see that I've won more times than anyone else as mafia, and then revel in the irony that I lead more lynches than anybody else.

Get out of the city.

But I just moved back to the city.


Likeliness is what determines this. It's not impossible for that post to be civ. I just don't think it's likely.

Likelihood has nothing to do with it. My brain doesn't change because I get one alignment or the other.

Umm... but it does.

[Epignosis]

How so, doctor?

[Epignosis]

How so, doctor?

Of course. Nothing to say.

I'm not going to sit here and deal with "He's so good at being bad I have to suspect him here." That isn't going to fly. Figure me out. Learn me. Get in my head. Don't come in here with "likeliness" nonsense. None of that is true.

If I take Wilgy's vote all game, he will have never once voted for mafia.

[Epignosis]

Long Con was the leader on the FZ. lynch but never engaged her. I have a problem with that. If you are the main reason why someone is about to get lynched you should engage that person and see if you can see the good in him or her. LC, why didn't you bother to do this?

[Long Con]

Long Con was the leader on the FZ. lynch but never engaged her. I have a problem with that. If you are the main reason why someone is about to get lynched you should engage that person and see if you can see the good in him or her. LC, why didn't you bother to do this?

I just got kinda disengaged during the latter half of Day 1.

[Epignosis]

Long Con was the leader on the FZ. lynch but never engaged her. I have a problem with that. If you are the main reason why someone is about to get lynched you should engage that person and see if you can see the good in him or her. LC, why didn't you bother to do this?

I just got kinda disengaged during the latter half of Day 1.

Any reason?

[Long Con]

Just busy. I didn't really feel SO TOTALLY SURE that FZ was bad, so I wasn't so eager to push her lynch. I am comfortable taking a back seat on Day 1.

[Luke11646]

HOLY COW, I got back and there were 6 pages to read!
I vote for the the song with the coolest name.
RIP Nutella

[DrWilgy]

How so, doctor?

Of course. Nothing to say.

I'm not going to sit here and deal with "He's so good at being bad I have to suspect him here." That isn't going to fly. Figure me out. Learn me. Get in my head. Don't come in here with "likeliness" nonsense. None of that is true.

If I take Wilgy's vote all game, he will have never once voted for mafia.

Good mornimg Epi. Of course I have something to say, so just chill a moment.

When you receive a baddie role it clearly changes your brain. What players are on your mind are different when compared to a civ, the cause and effects within the game are different to you as well. The processing of data obtained is manipulated by the fact that you have knowledge a civ wouldn't.

That's how the game works Epi. If mafia had no teammates or btsc, then yes the difference in how your brain is would be minimal, but the fact that you can receive a card that tells you an alignment puts different factors on the mind.

Civilian Epi can notice the trend of "I have the most baddie wins, why does everyone follow me."

I think it's more likely that baddie Epi can notice the trend "I'm bad, why do people follow me?" Then change that.

Who is more likely to be a baddie is all we got Epi. Telling me that it's nonsensical is silly.

[Long Con]

Wilgy's point is valid. Everyone will have different thoughts, and trains of thought, when bad as opposed to Civ.

[Epignosis]

No it isn't.

My alignment doesn't have any bearing on my ability to recognize and delight in a specific point of irony. That he considers it "more likely" means probability eludes him.

Please lynch me tomorrow so Wilgy can sleep at night.

[Long Con]

You have the ability to recognize and delight in any specific points about a vast variety of subjects. You don't do it all at once. Your brain has physical limitations on the number of ideas it can focus on at one time, and your interactions and experiences are constantly shaping what gets focused on.

[Epignosis]

I'm not here to argue neuroscience. If you think Wilgy is right about me, lynch me. I would prefer that so he can move on.

[Tangrowth]

This game is the best. You all are awesome. There's no anxiety-inducing high like a D1 EoD clusterfuck.

That's all really easy to say when you're the one controlling it.

How do you figure? Whom do you think would receive blame if the CFD was incorrect?

The controller bears the most responsibility, even if it shouldn't be that way. I'm taking a risk; so is everyone else suggesting CFDs.

You seem to be favoring the CFD strategy more and more, to the point where I'd expect it from you regardless of alignment.

All CFD's really do is remove logic and reason from the game. Sometimes that can randomly work, but most of the time, we all get screwed over.

Then again, I think a toss-up between one or more people who all have decent cases behind them can be good, but this culture of "this random person said one thing kinda fishy in EOD, let's lynch them instead of the person with actual points against them" is poison.

Once again, MP, you seem genuine town to me. I just don't agree with how you're being it.

And I'm not saying that everyone has to agree with the way I play. You can disagree with everything I said, and that's coolio. I don't want this to become bogged in a gameplay debate. I still have mental scarring because of ol' Edgar Allen. But when people are pressuring me into the hotseat, I'm gonna say something.

Look, that's all fair; I can understand your perspective. I'm not here to argue with you about whether CFDs are a good or bad tactic inherently.

But the facts are that:

1) CFDs catch mafia members offguard as much as townies. The argument that somehow baddies are the only ones manipulating the CFDs is one I've never found to be true in every game I've ever played with a CFD in it.

2) As Epi said, changeable votes allow townies to put pressure on other players. Even with day periods being 48 hours, the town cannot put equal and inordinate amounts of pressure on every player. The pressure that comes with a CFD can back the player being voted into a corner and put baddies into an incredibly uncomfortable position. Likewise, it can put townies into a position where they have to contribute. The person in the hotseat may not like it, but in that moment, players are under pressure, and the object of this game is to sort every player and make a determination of that player's alignment. What better way to sort them than to hang a sword of Damacles over their head until they say something?

3) As Jay said, now there's tons of potential motivations to sift through regarding all the vote changes. Combined with an eventual mafia flip, this can be valuable information for interactive analyses.

Yes, sometimes CFDs completely blow up in town's face. So do regular lynches when you lynch someone who has been thoroughly cased all day instead of everyone else who hasn't. But they also succeed (see: RadicalFuzz in Turf Wars on D2); when they do, it can catch the baddies with their pants down. A CFD is a technique just like any other; it has inherent risks, it has pros/cons, and it needs to be used delicately.

I agree with you that generally it's better to land on someone with a CFD who has been thoroughly cased and given a chance to respond. That's exactly what happened yesterday. I don't understand why anyone is acting like this came out of nowhere. nutella was thoroughly cased ever since the start of D1 by Epi, and she was a significant topic of discussion for the entire day period. It sucks ass that we were wrong, yeah, and it sucks she couldn't further defend herself, but she did have plenty of time to defend herself and provide reads, and she did both. It's Day 1. We have to lynch someone. I think we have a lot to be proud of with respect to the amount of pressure and discussion that took place. Should we have lynched someone else? Yeah, probably, but that's only with hindsight.

No one would be criticizing the CFD if we caught a baddie with it (well, except you maybe).

Anyway, that's all I have to say about it. I hope you can understand that perspective as well, and we can just agree to disagree on this front, and focus attention on what matters most right now: sorting players into mafia and town.

[speedchuck]

We did catch Marmot with a CFD in Phenon.

[Tangrowth]

Wilgy, please explain to me exactly what it is about Epi's behavior you're finding bothersome. I'm having trouble following exactly what you're trying to say here. Is it just that one post that Epi made that you think displays his perspective, and that perspective is influenced by his role card? Or is there more to it?

[Tangrowth]

We did catch Marmot with a CFD in Phenon.

Yes, that's true. That's actually a better example than Turf Wars, because in Turf Wars the town proceeded to self-implode and analyze the CFD to mean that baddies were controlling or arguing against the CFD.

Turns out that ALL of the other baddies weren't doing either. They weren't around, or said nothing about it.

In Phenon, the interactive analyses that came out of the sudden Marmot lynch are in large part what helped us win that game.

[Tangrowth]

Long Con, I'm similarly troubled by your contributions at the moment; I don't understand why you're jumping in after the fact and expressing agreement with this Wilgy argument.

Can you do something else for now and explain some of those reads on your rainbow in greater detail, if you don't mind? Even a brief sentence or whatever would be fine. Because I don't understand how you're coming to most of those, including the bad read of me. As far as I'm aware, the only thing you said to me earlier was "MP you're probably bad k" or something like that. So by all means, if there's something you want to talk about, let's do it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

We need to come together as a group and pick a better term for late phase vote movements than "CFD".

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Epi, what is your current read on Wilgy?

[Tangrowth]

We need to come together as a group and pick a better term for late phase vote movements than "CFD".

Yes, agreed. I hate that term.

Also, I suspect you. Talk about that.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

We need to come together as a group and pick a better term for late phase vote movements than "CFD".

Yes, agreed. I hate that term.

Also, I suspect you. Talk about that.

Tell me why and there'll be a dialogue available.

[juliets]

We need to come together as a group and pick a better term for late phase vote movements than "CFD".

Yes. Thank you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

May I suggest "musical chairs"?

[Long Con]

We did catch Marmot with a CFD in Phenon.

Yes, that's true. That's actually a better example than Turf Wars, because in Turf Wars the town proceeded to self-implode and analyze the CFD to mean that baddies were controlling or arguing against the CFD.

Turns out that ALL of the other baddies weren't doing either. They weren't around, or said nothing about it.

In Phenon, the interactive analyses that came out of the sudden Marmot lynch are in large part what helped us win that game.

Nah. Marmot wasn't CFD. Marmot was info-outed, and most of his votes were on there for some time.

[Tangrowth]

Here's my updated rainbow, by the way. I'm still in POE mode because I'm back to not really feeling any mafia suspects, just a bunch of people I'm not confident in calling town reads. However, that'll hopefully change during D2, if not before then, as I do some digging back into D1 stuff, especially EOD.

Dyslexicon
Epignosis
Luke11646
Marmot
speedchuck

DrWilgy
Elohcin
FZ.
insertnamehere
JaggedJimmyJay
Long Con

[Epignosis]

Epi, what is your current read on Wilgy?

I'm of two minds. I already expressed the one view I had where Wilgy is bad here and is reproducing his effort to get me lynched last time in order to make me assume he's good.

However, what makes me doubt that view is the following:

Going back to work. Lynch Epi everyone.

Your fascination with me is adorable.

Isn't it? Is it not? I think you gave me mafia ptsd in vocaroo.

There is no logical basis for suspecting me based on my performance in another game. This post suggests a latent fear that I'm "at it again," and Wilgy just wants me gone so he doesn't have to fear that outcome. That suggests genuine thought process (insofar as I can reasonably understand WIlgy's thought process), even if it isn't logical.

[Tangrowth]

We need to come together as a group and pick a better term for late phase vote movements than "CFD".

Yes, agreed. I hate that term.

Also, I suspect you. Talk about that.

Tell me why and there'll be a dialogue available.

Let me dig into your ISO. I'm sure I'll find something in there.

[Tangrowth]

May I suggest "musical chairs"?

That works, but we need a good term that has a handy abbreviation. Musical chairs abbreviates to MC, which makes me think of hip hop.

[Tangrowth]

I can understand Wilgy's fear, even if it's completely irrational. I'm tinfoiling just a bit on Jay right now for no apparent reason, because I cannot even put anything into words at the moment. Something's just bothering me. I'm going to figure out what it is.

[Long Con]

Long Con, I'm similarly troubled by your contributions at the moment; I don't understand why you're jumping in after the fact and expressing agreement with this Wilgy argument.

After what fact? I was taking part in a current conversation.

Can you do something else for now and explain some of those reads on your rainbow in greater detail, if you don't mind? Even a brief sentence or whatever would be fine. Because I don't understand how you're coming to most of those, including the bad read of me. As far as I'm aware, the only thing you said to me earlier was "MP you're probably bad k" or something like that. So by all means, if there's something you want to talk about, let's do it.

You just feel bad to me. Even the first part of this quote, like what are you talking about?? "Jumping in after the fact", what? Loaded language. Planting seeds, wanting to make me look bad very subtly. I get a lot of those feels from you. I appreciate content, but I think you are using content and participation as a screen, and it shows in some of the things you say.

[Tangrowth]

Long Con, I'm similarly troubled by your contributions at the moment; I don't understand why you're jumping in after the fact and expressing agreement with this Wilgy argument.

After what fact? I was taking part in a current conversation.

Can you do something else for now and explain some of those reads on your rainbow in greater detail, if you don't mind? Even a brief sentence or whatever would be fine. Because I don't understand how you're coming to most of those, including the bad read of me. As far as I'm aware, the only thing you said to me earlier was "MP you're probably bad k" or something like that. So by all means, if there's something you want to talk about, let's do it.

You just feel bad to me. Even the first part of this quote, like what are you talking about?? "Jumping in after the fact", what? Loaded language. Planting seeds, wanting to make me look bad very subtly. I get a lot of those feels from you. I appreciate content, but I think you are using content and participation as a screen, and it shows in some of the things you say.

After the lynch. I understand it can just be timing, but whenever I participate in heated EODs and people come in here and get all whiny about the result, it actually bothers me. Some of us worked really hard to try to figure out who the best person to lynch was. So we were wrong, OK. It bothers me then when people come in afterwards and then contribute discussion that I cannot see the point to developing reads. Because first of all I think, "where were you throughout the rest of D1?" as well as "now that you're here, why are you spending time on this conversation?" Yours and INH's posts both hit me like that.

What do you mean very subtly? Have you met me? Subtle isn't a word in my dictionary.

If you get those feels from me, show me where else. I'd like to address them. Because otherwise this is just a baseless accusation and I have no reason to believe you're not making it up.

[Tangrowth]

I can understand Wilgy's fear, even if it's completely irrational. I'm tinfoiling just a bit on Jay right now for no apparent reason, because I cannot even put anything into words at the moment. Something's just bothering me. I'm going to figure out what it is.

Here's the problem I have with Jay:

He's consistently posting like he's a detached observer instead of an active emotionally-invested participant in this game.

He spent literally over the first half of D1 being a detached observer. But even since he's become involved, I get no feeling of mutual investment. The emotion isn't there. And I believe this is a serious meta tell because I was his baddie teammate in Transistor and saw it then, and then I saw it again in GY!BE when he was indy and let it go as reading too much into meta.

I'll see if I can find examples to display what I'm talking about.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'll see if I can find examples to display what I'm talking about.

Do that. You're not going to see "emotion" in like ten posts of fuck-off Vompatti roleplay. I think I displayed plenty of it in the EOD proceedings though when shit actually mattered. I think your meta assessment is valid even -- I tend to be less emotional when bad than when good. I don't believe that assessment suits my posts in this game though.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

EOD1 has been treated like a Crustacean Fire Drill, and I am not sure that term is the most applicable. We/I should have snapshotted the tally a few times prior to and during the chaos, but oh well. Going by memory and what's visible in the declared votes, over the last half hour or so the voting swayed wildly among four candidates: FZ, nutella, Long Con, and INH. That we ended up on nutella felt to me like a product of circumstance as much as suspicion.

Luke, Dizzy, speed, MP, INH, Epi, and I left final votes on nutella. Could y'all at least briefly state why you made that decision in the end over the other candidates being fielded? I will answer for myself separately once I have seen some others take the initiative.

[Marmot]

We did catch Marmot with a CFD in Phenon.

True, but none of my teammates were online, so the CFD never accomplished what it intended.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm looking at INH's posts when he returned to the thread during the height of EOD chaos:

Spoiler: show

jesus christ stop posting and also mislynching me

The floor is yours, but you have to hurry. Reads?

what the hell are you expecting here?

Nutella is my top scumread, but once again, I just caught up 8 pages in 15 minutes.

The MP/FZ thing seems like he said/she said type stuff.

CFD's are awful and the worst.

blah

I find myself disagreeing with 75% of MP's strategy in this game, and yet I think he's a civilian.

I also townread Epi and Speed.

jesus christ stop posting and also mislynching me

The floor is yours, but you have to hurry. Reads?

what the hell are you expecting here?

Nutella is my top scumread, but once again, I just caught up 8 pages in 15 minutes.

The MP/FZ thing seems like he said/she said type stuff.

CFD's are awful and the worst.

blah

I understand that if you're not caught up then this is a shitty spot. Do you believe you are the target of a CFD right now? What makes you say so? Please answer quickly.

If I was AWOL the entire time, and people lynched me before I could log on, that'd be understandable.

The fact that people want to lynch me IMMEDIATELY when I log in and before I can catch up smells fishy.

I also don't get the thing against LC. Then again, I don't think I've ever agreed with a CFD before.

I appreciate content like this. Even under immense late pressure, with no reasonable means of alleviating it in the last hour and a number of people demanding that he say something, he still puked up some reads. He may not have been entirely caught up or able to absorb the game, but he puked up some reads. He met the demands in real time, quickly, and in a way that I think looks organic.

[Tangrowth]

JaggedJimmyJay, the Detached Observer

Maybe it's just me, but I'm still bothered by the fact that Jay let over half of D1 go by without participating directly. When he finally did, here are his three reads posts:

Reads, Part 1
Reads, Part 2
Reads, Part 3

They have plenty of insight, but it's clear he was crafting these thoughts while observing all of us doing the engaging. There's just no emotion here. Just look at the language employed in subsequent posts:

Spoiler: show

As for MP's question that you didn't like my snarky response to: I honestly have no idea what an answer to that question would be. "You remind me of something I do as both alignments, but feel more pressure to do as scum. What do you say about that?" - to paraphrase. What do I say about that?

Instead of focusing on the notion that MP is working from a perspective of his own meta as he perceives it, you could focus on the assertion itself -- that you were excusing your lack of activity frequently enough to be suspicious. That is an accusation independent of meta. If you feel it shouldn't speak to your alignment, you could say why.

Spoiler: show

@JJJ - The Marmot read was kind of a tinfoil thought that has been disproved. Marmot is a null read, maybe slight town if I was to go crazy. The Speed feeling different to me is nothing more than just that. He feels not as careful and more playfool/bouncy (?). Coupled with him enjoying to play anti-town it does give me a hmmmm.

Please expand on the tinfoil concern you previously had about Marmot.

Both of these posts read particularly robotic to me. Even when he's been interrogating people in this game since he's become non-Vompatti, it's as if he's a robot interrogator.

I've gotten no sense of urgency or passion from Jay the entire game. Usually when we mindmeld, especially in late-term EoDs, I can feel the emotion dripping from his posts. I got none, even when he was employing charged language. Just read through this series of posts, then ask yourself honestly how much urgency and emotion you get from them:

Spoiler: show

Moved my vote to FZ. Her reflected suspicion upon MP looks fake.

Spoiler: show

@linki: MP, I'm not interested in justifying a baddie read of you, I'm trying to figure it out. I get what you're saying, but I'm trying to understand why you would ask about the civvie read and not about the mafia read. What does it give you? Why aren't you interested in why he saw Eloh as bad? Or Wilgy?

This stuff in particular doesn't inspire me. MP asked about one stated read; there is no obligation to be curious about other reads too at the exact same moment.

Spoiler: show

I am bewildered that FZ. is criticizing the notion of identifying the civilians given how ardently I defended her there.

Granted, I burned the town to the ground, but she didn't object to me calling her good.

That's sort of why I asked. The revolution of publicly stated town reads on The Syndicate became popular through 2016 when FZ wasn't around, which might lend to her being perturbed by it here. It's not a point that moves me much, because I am pretty sure I voiced loud town reads of her in the 2015 GOC (and she of me) without it being an issue.

Spoiler: show

I'm spending so much time defending myself.

Pardon my crudeness, but fuck all that. Reads right now are more useful than defense.

Spoiler: show

Do you actually read my posts? Or are you too vain and sure of yourself that you just fit everything to you wrong (or evil) theory? You want to lynch me, lynch me, just don't say false things when you haven't read what I write. You'll be viewed differently after I'm lynched. Pretty sure twisting my words will come bite you in the ass when I'm gone. I explained what I felt about Nutella now. I explained to JJJ why I said what I said about INH, and also commented on the fact he isn't here now.

So, to be quite clear: you suspect MP is opportunistic in this moment and is not genuine in his suspicion of you? Yes or no.

Spoiler: show

INH, a penny for your thoughts.

Spoiler: show

INH you could easily end up dead in ten minutes. Surely you have something to say?

Spoiler: show

jesus christ stop posting and also mislynching me

The floor is yours, but you have to hurry. Reads?

what the hell are you expecting here?

Nutella is my top scumread, but once again, I just caught up 8 pages in 15 minutes.

The MP/FZ thing seems like he said/she said type stuff.

CFD's are awful and the worst.

blah

I understand that if you're not caught up then this is a shitty spot. Do you believe you are the target of a CFD right now? What makes you say so? Please answer quickly.

What would you rate the emotion in all of that from 1-10, just based on a tone assessment? I'd give it like a 2.

I realize this is a tone-based accusation, and it is difficult to convey how Jay's posts have been making me feel especially in a tinfoil-y kind of way, so I'm intrigued if any of you all see the same thing.

================================================================================================================

Applying Pressure Selectively and Lack of (Re-)Assessment

Here's another thing that's bothering me about Jay. He didn't seem to be reassessing players and he didn't seem to be applying pressure that much at all except when convenient, and even then it felt emotionally halfhearted (see: above).

A cornerstone of Jay's town meta is that he is constantly reassessing and applying pressure to as many players as possible.

First, here is Jay's response to my inquires:

Spoiler: show

Jay, I feel good so far about us mindmelding a bit, as well as about your efforts since you've unmasked yourself, so consider yourself to have a green color for now.

That said, I have a couple of questions for you:

1) Why did you wait until Day 1 was over halfway over to unmask yourself? What did you feel you were accomplishing by staying silent that whole time, while instead you could have been assisting thread conversation and hunting?

All I had to accomplish was to entertain my extremely Mafia-weary self. I forced myself to Be All JJJ in Phenon despite miserable burnout and it made the game a lot less fun for me than it should have been. It's been too long since I have had a little fun in a game even at the expense of being valuable and I was willing to take my liberties. To play the game the way I play it exacts a toll, and eventually it becomes too much. Additionally it has given me a separate means of exploring the game from a different angle I've tried in the past but usually failed at: observing the action quietly and developing a perspective without cramming myself into everything. This probably isn't what I'm best at, but it's easier on my head and can still be productive.

2) Why aren't you tinfoiling me at all right now? It's ironic perhaps that I feel this way, because I've strongly townread DDL and others as town before and received this response from them, but I'm just a little paranoid about the fact that you declared me to be your top read and you aren't taking beefs with me just yet. After I decimated town in Scrimmage (sorry, Dizzy ), I've observed that in games we've played together since you've been hesitant to read into immense effort on my part and sort as me town. So why do you feel that way here? Why haven't you expressed any doubt? Is it because you know I'm town?

As I've said before, I don't think tinfoil for the sake of tinfoil is useful. It is possible you are mafia; I don't think it's probable. I deal in probables. I also haven't read you strongly because of your "effort"; I frankly don't care about that. As I said in my write-up, what I like most about your play so far is your investment in the strategic dialogue relative to the cop role because it recalls clearly the impact you made on Arrested Development Mafia. You have more reason than almost any other player in this game to genuinely care about that because you have personally seen to its success, and I thought your discussion on the matter looked authentic.

At the time I was OK enough with this response. It all made sense. But it feels like a calculated and manufactured answer. I still don't get the impression at all that Jay has ever seriously considered that I could be bad. That's what's bothering me. His answers here check out, but at no point so far in this game have I felt Jay has made an honest assessment to engage with me and even tinfoil just a little.

Second, if you dig through Jay's ISO, look at all the players he did engage directly. I'll note in bolded red when he seemed to actually apply pressure as opposed to asking a detached question.

Spoiler: show

Posts #1-9: Vompatti stuff
#10-14: Reads/observations, comments
#15: speedchuck
#16: Dyslexicon
#17: speedchuck
#18: addressing an inquiry from MP
#19: FZ.
#20-21: comments
#22: addressing an inquiry from MP
#23: statement of vote moved to FZ.
#24: FZ.
#25: clarification with Epi
#26: FZ. link
#27: comment
#28: FZ.
#29: response to FZ.
#30: INH
#31: comment
#32: statement of intent to lynch INH instead of LC if not FZ
#33-36: INH
#37: voted nutella

Throughout almost all of those posts, I don't get the sense from Jay that he was trying to engage with players and develop reads on them, except for maybe FZ. and INH. That's abnormal, and not town-like for someone who should be trying to determine alignments.

I think Jay's posts this game have largely been calculated and express a Jay by the numbers. I don't believe he's honestly trying to assess anyone's alignment. Opinions on this interpretation are welcome and encouraged.

[speedchuck]

EOD1 has been treated like a Crustacean Fire Drill, and I am not sure that term is the most applicable. We/I should have snapshotted the tally a few times prior to and during the chaos, but oh well. Going by memory and what's visible in the declared votes, over the last half hour or so the voting swayed wildly among four candidates: FZ, nutella, Long Con, and INH. That we ended up on nutella felt to me like a product of circumstance as much as suspicion.

Luke, Dizzy, speed, MP, INH, Epi, and I left final votes on nutella. Could y'all at least briefly state why you made that decision in the end over the other candidates being fielded? I will answer for myself separately once I have seen some others take the initiative.

I was on FZ for a while, but his adamant stance and emotional reaction seemed genuine.
So I then switched to nutella, the other suspect with a fleshed-out case against them. Then the drill began.

To be honest, I didn't feel super good about any of the four in the lynch. Okay, but not great. LC or INH might have been better options, but we hadn't had time to make a case on them. I stuck with the person that we had taken a good look at, and still somewhat suspected. That way, when the dust settled, we wouldn't look back and say "Oh, INH was obvious town and we never gave them a chance."

Basically, my lack of support for the Chinese fire drill, plus the length of time the case remained on nutella without any strong arguments against it, pushed my vote there.

[Tangrowth]

EOD1 has been treated like a Crustacean Fire Drill, and I am not sure that term is the most applicable. We/I should have snapshotted the tally a few times prior to and during the chaos, but oh well. Going by memory and what's visible in the declared votes, over the last half hour or so the voting swayed wildly among four candidates: FZ, nutella, Long Con, and INH. That we ended up on nutella felt to me like a product of circumstance as much as suspicion.

Luke, Dizzy, speed, MP, INH, Epi, and I left final votes on nutella. Could y'all at least briefly state why you made that decision in the end over the other candidates being fielded? I will answer for myself separately once I have seen some others take the initiative.

Let me walk you and everyone else through my train of thought re: nutella during D1, using posts within my ISO.

1) I read Epi's linguistically-charged case of nutella, but one question immediately came to mind. That was a concern before I could give the case any serious consideration, because off the top of my head I would have suspected that nutella has played other town games with waffly language.

2) After Epi displayed the meta portion of his case in response to my inquiry, I felt inspired.

3) However, at around the same time as 2), I immediately thereafter followed up that inspiration with a concern that at face value nutella seemed genuine in recent posts. So I was torn, despite finding incredible value in Epi's observations. Later I specifically called nutella to state reads due to feeling conflicted.

Those formed a lot of my thoughts about nutella. Then, closer to EoD:

4) While I was feeling inspired by an FZ. vote, nutella made posts throughout EoD that at face value seemed bad to me. I also thought it was interesting that FZ. was making a concerted effort to connect the suspicions against her and nutella earlier in the game. And THEN later nutella said she was feeling better about FZ., which I saw as potential teammate indicative behavior. Hence, this assertion.

5) nutella continued to bug me more, which I expressed.

6) I continued to waffle more on FZ., especially once she coughed up reads and such. Although we explored other CFD options (LC, INH), in the end I didn't feel comfortable with a lynch of either of them, because I felt despite pausing at different moments on FZ. and nutella, there was still reason to suspect them both.

Consensus formed around nutella rather than FZ., and it was getting to very close to EoD, so I switched to nutella to avoid a tie and hope that Epi's observations combined with my recent decline in opinion re: nutella's townieness was onto something.

[Tangrowth]

I'm looking at INH's posts when he returned to the thread during the height of EOD chaos:

Spoiler: show

jesus christ stop posting and also mislynching me

The floor is yours, but you have to hurry. Reads?

what the hell are you expecting here?

Nutella is my top scumread, but once again, I just caught up 8 pages in 15 minutes.

The MP/FZ thing seems like he said/she said type stuff.

CFD's are awful and the worst.

blah

I find myself disagreeing with 75% of MP's strategy in this game, and yet I think he's a civilian.

I also townread Epi and Speed.

jesus christ stop posting and also mislynching me

The floor is yours, but you have to hurry. Reads?

what the hell are you expecting here?

Nutella is my top scumread, but once again, I just caught up 8 pages in 15 minutes.

The MP/FZ thing seems like he said/she said type stuff.

CFD's are awful and the worst.

blah

I understand that if you're not caught up then this is a shitty spot. Do you believe you are the target of a CFD right now? What makes you say so? Please answer quickly.

If I was AWOL the entire time, and people lynched me before I could log on, that'd be understandable.

The fact that people want to lynch me IMMEDIATELY when I log in and before I can catch up smells fishy.

I also don't get the thing against LC. Then again, I don't think I've ever agreed with a CFD before.

I appreciate content like this. Even under immense late pressure, with no reasonable means of alleviating it in the last hour and a number of people demanding that he say something, he still puked up some reads. He may not have been entirely caught up or able to absorb the game, but he puked up some reads. He met the demands in real time, quickly, and in a way that I think looks organic.

That's a fair observation. I would like to hear INH expand more on some of these reads though.

[Tangrowth]

I really need to go now; PhD work is important. I unfortunately won't be back before N1 is over. My reads remain unchanged.

[Dyslexicon]

Quick notes:

Meh. RIP Nutella.

All this shifting of votes at the end of the day feels to me like someone wanted to cause chaos. Wish I knew who. I'm going to sleep. Will think about it tomorrow.

I don't like this post. "Someone" wanted to cause chaos? There were multiple players switching their votes around right to the very end, are they all scum? What are you implying by this? Personally I tend to think chaotic EoDs can be helpful, especially first day.

- I don't like Epi's scaremongering on Wilgy that if he votes Epi all game he will have been wrong all game. It serves no other purpose than to scare off players telling them they are "doing it wrong".

- This may be tinfoil, but Nut posted revealing her alignment when her lynch was clinched but hadn't flipped yet. FZ said "this is too nervewrecking" and MP said "sorry if I'm wrong, Nut" (or something to that effect), but Nut had already said good luck to town and I see no reason for Nut to lie about her alignment at that point (plus she doesn't seem like the type of player that would troll). Playing up the "oh, still don't know what alignment you are Nut" right before the flip strikes me as disingenuous, but as I'm typing this out I'm not quite sure that's the only interpretation, but it was a thought that crossed my mind so putting it out there.

@JJJ - I switched to Nut initially to make the lynch closer, think it went to 4 on FZ, 3 on INH and 3 on Nut at that point (though I'm not sure I remember the numbers correctly, I'm used to having the vote info all in thread). Also wanted to open the door for FZ to vote for Nut to test the FZ/Nut link that I think MP mentioned, cause I was considering that as well. FZ vote LC instead, but now with the info that Nut was town that doesn't say much. Actually the numbers I listed might be wrong cause LC had some votes at that point as well. Anyway, my reason for being ok with the Nut lynch was just that she felt different to me than last game and I was not particularly interested in the LC lynch (as I tend to think he is town) or the INH lynch (as he had barely been active).

- Totally not important, but I don't think either last game's Marmot lynch or this lynch was a proper CFD. If LC had been lynched that would have been a CFD, but Nut this game and Marmot last game was discussed options all the way, even if the EoD was chaotic. But it's also harder for scum to react under chaos.

[Dyslexicon]

I really need to go now; PhD work is important. I unfortunately won't be back before N1 is over. My reads remain unchanged.

How do you even do it? I can't even concentrate on my simple Maters degree, and you are post-boting worse than ever lol. Anyway, good luck on your PhD work.^^

[Epignosis]

- I don't like Epi's scaremongering on Wilgy that if he votes Epi all game he will have been wrong all game. It serves no other purpose than to scare off players telling them they are "doing it wrong".

Hello. I'm Epignosis.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JaggedJimmyJay, the Detached Observer

Maybe it's just me, but I'm still bothered by the fact that Jay let over half of D1 go by without participating directly.

I've already answered this, so my answer must just be taken or left. I'm surprised it took this long for me to hear shit about dicking around for most of Day 1 given that it's such a blatant meta departure. I don't care. I've explained why I did that, why I needed to do that, and if I am not believed then oh well. I am not interested in arguing about that and frankly I am in no mood. I'm fighting burnout with every post and this is no help.

Both of these posts read particularly robotic to me. Even when he's been interrogating people in this game since he's become non-Vompatti, it's as if he's a robot interrogator.

I've gotten no sense of urgency or passion from Jay the entire game. Usually when we mindmeld, especially in late-term EoDs, I can feel the emotion dripping from his posts. I got none, even when he was employing charged language. Just read through this series of posts, then ask yourself honestly how much urgency and emotion you get from them:

I can offer you naught but a shrug here. I think your comment about our mindmelding tendencies actually evidences a source for your mindset: projection. You are attributing to me a style of play that I think is more accurately applied to you. I play the game with emotion, but it doesn't look the same as your emotion. There aren't exclamation marks or capital letters or copious emojis, there is logic and there are reads. That is what I do, and my methods are reflected in my posts. Refer this to the most significant difference in the Myers-Briggs test between us: turbulence versus assertiveness. You represent the former and I the latter. Our displays of emotion reflect that difference. I think that if you review EOD sequences from whatever civilian games of mine you like you might see what I mean. My emotion and your emotion don't bear the same appearance.

Applying Pressure Selectively and Lack of (Re-)Assessment

Here's another thing that's bothering me about Jay. He didn't seem to be reassessing players and he didn't seem to be applying pressure that much at all except when convenient, and even then it felt emotionally halfhearted (see: above).

A cornerstone of Jay's town meta is that he is constantly reassessing and applying pressure to as many players as possible.

I don't care about my town meta. I wasted much of Day 1 on purpose. I tried to work it out so that when I "removed the mask" and provided something useful to the civilian cause, there would be enough time left in the day to explore it and field conversations. So that's what I did, and I think it worked out that way. The players about whom I voiced suspicions were able to respond, and as time permitted I spoke with them and came to conclusions. Then as EOD approached and occurred, I voted according to my developed feelings and according to the progression of the cycle. That is what I have to offer in this game. I know it is less than what I usually have to offer. I warned everyone before hand that it would be so.

At the time I was OK enough with this response. It all made sense. But it feels like a calculated and manufactured answer. I still don't get the impression at all that Jay has ever seriously considered that I could be bad. That's what's bothering me. His answers here check out, but at no point so far in this game have I felt Jay has made an honest assessment to engage with me and even tinfoil just a little.

It's a long game. If you're bad I don't have to figure it out on Day 1, and based upon the content I viewed I didn't think you to be a priority. I still don't. Other evidence will eventually exist in the realm of votes and alignment flips and your future posts, and my feelings will develop accordingly so long as both of us live. That's the game. I am not the type of player to be concerned with tinfoil. I am usually subject to tinfoil and it gives me a special understanding of how useless it tends to be. When I see a reason to worry about you, you'll hear about it.

Throughout almost all of those posts, I don't get the sense from Jay that he was trying to engage with players and develop reads on them, except for maybe FZ. and INH. That's abnormal, and not town-like for someone who should be trying to determine alignments.

I think Jay's posts this game have largely been calculated and express a Jay by the numbers. I don't believe he's honestly trying to assess anyone's alignment. Opinions on this interpretation are welcome and encouraged.

I certainly didn't engage with people for most of Day 1. I've said why. I engaged with them later, broadly, when I decided to give a crap and made every effort to discern alignment.

[Dyslexicon]

- I don't like Epi's scaremongering on Wilgy that if he votes Epi all game he will have been wrong all game. It serves no other purpose than to scare off players telling them they are "doing it wrong".

Hello. I'm Epignosis.

Hi, I'm Dizzy.
Are you meaning to say that this kind of thing is normal for town!you? Your town game that you linked me to was gone btw.

[Dyslexicon]

Blugh. I have to go.

[Epignosis]

- I don't like Epi's scaremongering on Wilgy that if he votes Epi all game he will have been wrong all game. It serves no other purpose than to scare off players telling them they are "doing it wrong".

Hello. I'm Epignosis.

Hi, I'm Dizzy.
Are you meaning to say that this kind of thing is normal for town!you? Your town game that you linked me to was gone btw.

I don't have a "town game."